GR#211 - Zelda Style - Sprites&Tiles

[Decroded]

Sorry if these images are too big, I'm trying to give myself a large canvas to mess around in.
The game screen is 320x240 scrolling.

Here's someone's tile set which obviously needs help:


I want to add a smoother, more painterly style to the Zelda tiles in use here.
There are many other tile sets and sprites and I'm waiting for a copy of the full 256 palette which I will rework to remove all the wasted similar colours to free up some space.
For now I'm sticking mostly to the existing limited colours palette (only added 3 dark red/oranges) but there is still plenty of room to add/replace some colours.


Here's where I'm at now:

This started out by fixing the nasty stairs but I couldn't stand those unnatural looking railings and all the noisy texture so I've just started redoing the whole thing...

Firstly I've spent a few hours redoing the cave wall and doorway tiles (top).
I didn't intend for this texture of completely random chunks but thats what I've ended up with.
I hoped the bottom would look less like hanging down into the lava and more like rocks protuding upwards, hopefully I can fix it.

Secondly I've tried to smooth out the lava texture to be less noisy and repetitive by adding a flat red with patches of texture and points of interest such like bubbles (to be animated).

Now I'm moving onto the more challenging (for me) task of the ground tiles.
Right now I've made a mess and expirementing with textures and this is mainly where I'm after some advice/edits.
The bottom of the U is where I'm working now.
You can fall off all these ledges and I think I haven't clearly marked the edge of the play area yet.
I wonder what a professional would do here.
I'm thinking 2 separate colour ramps and textures, one sharp chunks of rock around the edge and one for patches of smoother rock with cracks or something.
I'm trying to do this now but I suck at it so any help is appreciated.
Also any tips on efficient tiling that still prevents too many straight lines and grid effect.

Thanks. 

UPDATE:
Maybe something along these lines (bottom mid section)?
Do you think I would be better off not trying to recycle these colours and just create new ramps?


UPDATE:
Gave up on the palette. Feels like I'm moving slowly in the right direction.
Don't know what to do about the colour of the flatter inner area of the ground.
It kind of looks like dirt but this seems wrong for somewhere so volcanic...

[Decroded]

Small update on the tiles.


More urgently though I need to redo these sprites which are an edit of some version of Zelda that the programmer did:


Here's a redesign for main character sprite:

Design is nothing exciting but I don't have much info to go on.
I added the typical gold trim to help him stand out against the green grass background but haven't tested how well this will work yet or if needs stronger outlining.
I think its my first attempt at a character like this so any tips are appreciated.
Played around with the feet for a bit but didn't really know what else to do without going bigger.
Also, he will probably be getting a few variants of clothing anyway such as armour, helmet, weapon and shield.

EDIT: Yes, stronger outlines...

[Arne]

For the rocky platforms, it might be interesting to use cold vs warm. A dark gray purple for the Top and the Sides could be lit up by the lava from below.

[Decroded]

For the rocky platforms, it might be interesting to use cold vs warm. A dark gray purple for the Top and the Sides could be lit up by the lava from below.

The thought had crossed my mind so yeah I'll have a go and see how it looks.
Originally I didn't want it to be too simple but now I'm starting to think a clean, colourful look would be nice.

I've been tweaking the main character.
He's now 2 pixels taller than original.

It was decided his shiny gold-trimmed tunic was too fancy for a farmer's boy so I've gone for a peasant look on  the first row, the one on the right being what I think looks best so far.
And as per row 2, the sprite will change once you get better gear or perhaps just at certain points in the story.

Appreciate any crits 

EDIT: Trying some different palette.
Not sure if this is working :-S

Just to clarify, this platform is "floating" above the lava and will have the odd support column of rock underneath it.
There'll be a separate version for the lower parts that sit in the lava.

EDIT: Bolder highlights re-using some colours already in lava palette:



EDIT: Bonus chest sprite from same palette as hero.

[Decroded]

Still pushing   


Smoothed out the texture and removed heavy contrast lines within highlight areas (thanks magic wand! ).
"First" pass pixel-level detailing.
I tried to hue bounce ramp for rocks.
How does the palette look? Any suggestions?

Did a tiling test which went surprisingly well and tweaked some tiles in response to glitchy edges.
Next I need to organise upper and lower levels with visible separation...

Not sure about chest (and probably all items) with an outline as above or without?

Increased hero's shield size by 1px and added hue-shift.
Thinking about doing a helmet soon but don't have any ideas yet...

EDIT: Here's a shot of another area I'm working on.
I actually started this before working on the cave.
The theme here is a palace of nature which has been over-run by plants etc and will pose various related challenges.

Floor vine still needs another pass over its leaves.
Sloppily c+p the floor tiles but seems to tile ok when done properly.
Bannister is out of place here but dumped it in anyway

Next I should probably add some broken floor tiles with dirt and grass, and some decals or leaves to drop around the place.

I've had a comment that I should add some green into the wall some how but I'm not sure how yet.


Suggestions appreciated as always 

[PypeBros]

It's really turning great. Just got the feeling that chest's perspective could be improved.

Imho, pillars on east/west walls do not work well in a room where you see on the same line vertical pillars leading to the lower level of the dungeon.

Not sure about chest (and probably all items) with an outline as above or without?

It works well as above,

a palace of nature which has been over-run by plants etc

^_^
I'd then suggest that you make the floor's tiling sparser, as if a layer of dust had covered it and only lets tiles detail appear here and there. It'll give you more room to show the invasive plants as obstacles to sub-divide the playground.

[Elrinth]

To me it feels like the ground is floating in the air. It feels disconnected from the lava and the ground doesn't look attached to anything right now. Am I the only one who gets this feeling?

I really love your latest graphics, just need some attachment of the ground into the lava. I think the outline colour on the bottom side is actually doing too much to separate it from the lava. Perhaps a more dark reddish instead of dark greyish?

Right now this is what I imagine it to be (kinda):


Here's some really sloppy edits:

Kinda waterish shadow:


With yellow lines which you already use on the spikey thingies which lie in the lava. Why not use that on the ground aswell?:

[Decroded]

To me it feels like the ground is floating in the air. It feels disconnected from the lava and the ground doesn't look attached to anything right now.

Great! Because it is the upper level above the lava, though not quite as high as in your 1st edit.
I went for boulder highlights for this reason so I'm glad its working.
In direct contradiction with the Zelda perspective (which I've grown to despise to be honest ), I'm going to add some support columns to illustrate this and try to keep the walls separated enough so this is not such a perspective problem.
I'm considering shadows but I'm mindful that lava is illuminating
I might end up restricting shadows to the few places where another platform is below, or at least where shadow is on lava I'll let some of those brighter oranges and yellows shine through the shadow in full with illuminated ring of light red around.

Soon I will do a lower level using similar technique to your 3rd edit to connect it to the lava (ripping off Vierbit's style from memory, though now I realise how bad my lava is in comparison  ).

You're second edit would be great for a reflective surface like ice or really calm water (as it could be in a cave with no wind).

[Decroded]

Imho, pillars on east/west walls do not work well in a room where you see on the same line vertical pillars leading to the lower level of the dungeon.

Hmmm...so too many pillars.
Any suggestions??
I'm really shit with this Zelda perspective 

a palace of nature which has been over-run by plants etc

^_^
I'd then suggest that you make the floor's tiling sparser, as if a layer of dust had covered it and only lets tiles detail appear here and there. It'll give you more room to show the invasive plants as obstacles to sub-divide the playground.

Thanks man thats a great suggestion.
Its so obvious yet it hadn't occured to me 
If I can do this right, it will add that extra dimension to the other planned variations of broken/uplifted tiles with patches of dirt being pushed out by vines.

[PypeBros]

Imho, pillars on east/west walls do not work well in a room where you see on the same line vertical pillars leading to the lower level of the dungeon.

Hmmm...so too many pillars.
Any suggestions??
I'm really shit with this Zelda perspective 

Well, I'd suggest something like the Temple of droplets (Z:MC) where the *corners* get the pillars to avoid such issue, and where exits have slightly slanted "vertical" (read 'from bottom to top') lines.

when they had to let something show through a hole in the ground, the 4 borders get roughly equivalent amount of darkness and depth was suggested by a small, dark view of what's below.
Deepwood shrine did feature straight pillars here and there, but no middle-hole together. They're only partly working, imho, and the sole reason why it's not annoying in-game is that the 240-pixels-wide GBA screen rarely allowed one to see all the corners of a room.

[Decroded]

Thanks Pypes, some great references and suggestions.

Due to a slight shift in the scope of the project I'll probably be focusing less and less on the limitations of the Zelda perspective.
This is probably good since having never been a die hard Zelda fan (don't get me wrong I do love it), I don't have enough emotional attachment to get right into it.
But it has been fun to play around with it and I feel I COULD now attack it pretty well if I needed, and would probably go for a less painterly style and more like your references above.

I started this a while ago but just wasn't in the mood to keep developing it.


As the project head is too busy with coding and music to develop much art skill, there's alot of modified Zelda art and free Zelda style tiles being used (with permission).
We're now wanting to move faster and wrap up this project so we can move onto another more exciting game.
So I'm now focusing on making stuff we can also recycle for the next project which will be in the standard 3/4 view.
Here's some stuff I made last night/today 

This is the run-down interior of a thieve's house so I'm keeping it pretty grim for now.
Will probably recycle this to use in various locations and add some splashes of colour around the place.

EDIT: Actually now there's something doing my head in about the stairs   
At first I had the top stairs that go left wider and thought it was too wide, so I made them like this, now when I measure it out in grid blocks its like its too thin.
Or maybe that's "right" enough as it is due to foreshortening.
Ugh too confused from stairing (lol) too long 

[Decroded]

Biting plant enemy:


He's supposed to be ugly in a cute way.
Hoping the yellow pixels look like teeth jutting out randomly 

[wolfenoctis]

I tried making him more readable, but I'm not too sure I was successful, pretty tough at this size.

[Decroded]

Haha that looks I'd like to see something playable with ur style in it 
I don't think that style fits in with existing graphics though as below.

Slight update (mine bottom left)...

Yeah it is a bit tough working this small and I don't have total control so I'm keeping everything outliney to be safe.

I've nicknamed this guy Bitey, and here's his idle cycle:

Never got the hang of idle animation so I'm pretty happy with this attempt, though its taken me a few hours since Photoshop is a bitch for frame animation :-S
SOME of the progress:
-> ->
Also still kinda like the idea of bobbing left and right like this but ah well:

[Decroded]

Motion draft for side biting animation.

First time trying to work in a blur and a bounce.

[Nirel]

Hi, I really like your work here.


I'm definitely no expert but I think it would look best if you had a couple of cycles of this and then one of this if you can.

I'm working on an idle animation my self and I've come to a conclusion that it's kinda like a grass tile, you don't want a distinguished tile repeating itself many times so you either tone it down or add variants.
This is a quick edit I did, added a frame to make it flow more naturally and toned down the movement a bit

I personally feel your cycle is a bit too much for an idle animation btw I have no idea what I'm saying, that's what I'm going to try and fix with my animation.

[Decroded]

Thanks mate all good points.
Will revisit no doubt.
I've had another comment that its too much movement for idle.
I wanted to make them very characteristic and lively since they spawn up out of the ground so its like they're excited to be there, but I probably went too far.

[winged doom]

Wow, really cool!

The game screen is 320x240 scrolling.

It will be a brand-new game or a just fan-craft or maybe Zelda's modification? (Sorry, I didn't read the topic, to much text for my bad english, just looking awesome pictures))))

[PypeBros]

I wanted to make them very characteristic and lively since they spawn up out of the ground so its like they're excited to be there, but I probably went too far.

Imho, the "idle" you have right now is good for "vigilant, ready-to-bite". You might need an extra animation for "dormant" flowers, esp. if your rooms are large and if the player might have to focus on only one part of it.

PS: have you checked the "zelda solarus" engine yet ? ( http://www.zelda-solarus.com/zs/ )

[Facet]

I like the Zelda all directions wall thing, but to me it only feels right in perspective:

I wanted to say a bunch more, sorry but I gotta sleep now

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

I second facet, I keep noticing that on people's zelda-alikes but can never remember to say it.

[Decroded]

Before I forget, thanks Pypes I fixed the chest perspective at my end well spotted.

Solarus looks interesting but this game is coded from scratch in Java by a talented French guy, complete with cutscenese and throwable chickens.
Here's his site http://alembrume.fr/
Episode 1 but its already playable for free on Windows and Google Play Store.
English is a bit sketchy and I came in really late and hardly did anything (besides the title screen which was an unfinished draft )
Ep 2 won't be too far off as he's a pretty quick developer.
To be honest, some of the stuff I'm doing probably won't even make it into this project but we're discussing starting another project soon in a similar vain but with fully custom graphics and more in-depth gameplay.

I like the Zelda all directions wall thing, but to me it only feels right in perspective:

Ugh...the more I think about the perspective the more my head hurts.
Doing it your way looks heaps better for that static image but it makes so many extra tiles that can only be used in certain places and not in others or there will be some nasty perspective conflicts.
Especially the way your pillars have 2 sets of perpsective.
The problem amplified by this game's resolution being higher than Zelda, so we have potential for more conflicts visible at one time.
Here's an example of how my tiles work now with the outside corners added in:

Simple solution would be to simply not design rooms like this but the coder seems to like these outside corners.
Or I could simply do the pillars on the corners instead as Pypes suggested, making perspective along walls and doors much easier to fudge.

Thanks for the input though.
Hopefully I get time to revisit this or I'll be forced to learn from it and move on.

Need to design a kind of grand entrance for this coming in from the forest which will fill the top part of the whole screen (like Seyken: Crystal Kingdom does but with a straight 3/4 perspective).
Just lacking the creativity I need to base this on

[Larwick]

Hey man your progress on this has been great.
Just thought I'd pop in and say that those walls look very pillow shaded. As a result everything kinda looks disconnected. You'll notice in the Zelda screens PypeBros linked that they tend to have a single gradient from light at the top to dark at the bottom. The effect you have looks nice in small areas, such as where the torches are, however I'd avoid making it so intense everywhere.
Keep it up! 

[Decroded]

those walls look very pillow shaded....The effect you have looks nice in small areas, such as where the torches are, however I'd avoid making it so intense everywhere.

Yeah correct. Thats something I discovered the hard way after spending too long fiddling to get a nice effect, THEN piecing it all together to realise it has that problem.
And its even worse once I add the outside corners
Hope I get time to redo it all.

Right now I'm trying to design a grand n entrance to the place but I'm totally devoid of creativity.

Any suggestions of a nice ancient palace like in some movie I can watch or something to get me in the mood??

[Decroded]

Some progress on the sideways biting animation:

Still unsure about using blurs :-S

Draft sprite for a lillypad platform to be used in some kind of sequence where you float down the river.
Surrounding tiles and sprites are not mine, just there for reference.

I like the strong specular but might have to tone it down a bit to fit in with surroundings.

[Larwick]

Some progress on the sideways biting animation:

Still unsure about using blurs :-S

Ahh I love it. I think you could work with the blur on the pullback and make it more like an exaggerated stretch of the plants face/jaw when it grabs onto its target. At the moment it sticks a bit too much.

[Facet]

Ugh...the more I think about the perspective the more my head hurts.
Doing it your way looks heaps better for that static image but it makes so many extra tiles that can only be used in certain places and not in others or there will be some nasty perspective conflicts.
Especially the way your pillars have 2 sets of perpsective.
The problem amplified by this game's resolution being higher than Zelda, so we have potential for more conflicts visible at one time.
Here's an example of how my tiles work now with the outside corners added in:

Simple solution would be to simply not design rooms like this but the coder seems to like these outside corners.
Or I could simply do the pillars on the corners instead as Pypes suggested, making perspective along walls and doors much easier to fudge.

Yeah, there's quite a few caveats; scrolling breaks the illusion as does the internal walls/any large features that would have to be treated case-by-case for best result; works great on the original but has to be planned around if you want it. I think Minish Cap on GBA actually does use perspective with internal walls and it looks a bit odd. You could actually try all fully top down walls internally (no side visible) and that could work ok, but as you say, easy to snowball into various tiling issues and it's effort that might be better expended elsewhere...

Like a kickass grand entrance! Have you an idea of the kind of period/style you want? I have a massive ref. folder somewhere; fairly organised. You could take up more of the screen for effect, I think, or maybe try some perspective there instead, as a one-off; this Chrono Trigger beaut was recommended to me the other day.

Edit - ''but with a straight 3/4 perspective'', ah right there's always good 'ol Seiken Densetsu 3. (all maps here)

[Decroded]

I think you could work with the blur on the pullback and make it more like an exaggerated stretch of the plants face/jaw when it grabs onto its target. At the moment it sticks a bit too much.

Ugh been too busy >.<


Bit better?

[PixelPiledriver]

It's looking decent. 
The most noticeable thing to me is that there is no action frames that show the biting.
The mouth is violently open, then shut.
I also feel like you might want a couple variations, 1 for a successful bite, and 1 for a miss.
The current version feels like it could be a miss.
I'll try to do an edit sometime soonish.

[Decroded]

Thanks for chiming in mate your feedback always appreciated.
I'll mess around with your suggestions soon.
I was trying to be clever where there mouth is wide open until the very point where the stalk becomes stretched, then snaps closed as if that is the mechanism it uses to trap things.
But yeah probably doesn't have the right effect 

[Polioliolio]

Thanks for chiming in mate your feedback always appreciated.
I'll mess around with your suggestions soon.
I was trying to be clever where there mouth is wide open until the very point where the stalk becomes stretched, then snaps closed as if that is the mechanism it uses to trap things.
But yeah probably doesn't have the right effect 

I think it looks great, but he makes an excellent point about the action frame.

Maybe for a single frame or two right at the max extension of the plant head, the mouth will look a bit more 'clamped', the teeth a little more exposed or something.

I'm really impressed by all the other work you've done on this too. 

[PypeBros]

Bit better?

Looks like it's drawing the character nearer while on ground, too. On successful bite, you could pause the animation before the "recoil" and keep biting unless the player did some magic button smashing to get released, in which case, the plant moves back to its safer idle stance.

[PixelPiledriver]

So here's some thoughts on this.

At the start I didn't really change much.
Put the tile ref on a separate layer.
Changed some settings to get it ready in GG.


Added a couple frames of his mouth wide open for some hang time before his jaws close.
Roughed in the biting frame.


Put in frames to show the impact of the bite.
Just a couple simple resolve frames.
Also intentionally stretched out his face some to add some more action to the bite.
Threw in a small particle but removed later so I could focus on working with the flower.


Tweaked the first blur some.
Added in the black of his mouth and teeth which are easy to visually follow.
Anything that reads as multiples well, teeth, eyes, etc is good for a blur frame.
Made his mouth open just a little bit wider each frame when his mouth is wide open so that there is motion and change.
Changed the bite frame some to include the color of the teeth.
Put a little more bounce in the bite impact.


Worked on the stalk some.
Tried playing with a rubber band effect when he stretches.
It drew some attention away from the bite so I took it out, but interesting to try.
Enlarged the teeth just before he bites down.


Made the stalk simpler, added a small wave to taunt as he stretches.
Decided to take out the bounce before he pulls back to simplify the overall motion.
Added a couple of stretched frames to lead into the blur on the pull back.
Change the shape a bit of the pull back blur and drew in teeth.
These 3 are pretty much the same, just played with some particles and without.


The faster the animation plays, less delays, the more range of min and max speed you have to play with.
On the left is the same animation as above at 5 delays.
On the right I've dropped it to 4 delays and added more speed contrast to different parts of the animation.


There are parts of this I have probly not explained that well.
Check out the pixels and ask questions if you need some clarity.

[tim]

Wow this is so smooth & pretty. The emphasis on small timings & delays is one the best advice possible for animation.
Did you already made a game PixelPiledriver ? I would love to see something coming out of your hands.

[PixelPiledriver]

Did you already made a game PixelPiledriver?

Well I'm paid to be a game programmer, not an artist.
I just do this stuff in my spare time.

[jams0988]

Well I'm paid to be a game programmer, not an artist.
I just do this stuff in my spare time.

That's a mistake, I think. Go make a minute long RPG trailer with your ridiculous artwork, throw it on Kickstarter, and watch 200k roll into your bank account in a month. Then go forth, and make your own games on your own time. You have the talent to do it. =)

I'm already jealous of your success, and you haven't even done it yet. That's how sure I am of your potential for making oodles of cash. :'D
If you pay as much attention to the small details in the design of your game as you do to your animations, there's no way you'd fail. Now's the time to do it!:3

[big brother]

Regarding the plant biting animation -- what if it opened its "mouth" during the rearing/anticipation frames? I think that would better communicate the impending danger.

[PixelPiledriver]

That's a mistake, I think.

It's not.
I'm very happy as a programmer.
I appreciate the compliments and encouragement but my purpose here is to benefit the success of Decroded, not my own.

My post could be more detailed from frame to frame.
But at the moment I have too many other things to do.
Perhaps what I should do next time is draw notes on each frame.

The main point is emphasize the time and space in different parts of the animation.
Space is controlled by distance and change in shape.
Time is controlled by frames and speed.
There is also some overlap between them but that is the basic concept.

Of course variations are needed to find the desired result.
My edit is just one way to weight the frames.
Try some other stuff and see what happens.

[winged doom]

This look awesome! Great work!

[Decroded]

some ideas for lava cave.

won't tile and lots of messy unfinished bits because i forgot i should probably re-use tiles instead of painting the whole canvas   

[Beetleking22]

Looks so F## good! Only critic that I can give is that Perspective does not match with your other zeldaish tiles...  I mean walls!