Autumn - C64 Picture

[jsl]

Alltough I say this picture is Final to me, and soon for Upload on the CSDb.. Maybe you guys have some tips on what could have been better. It is the thing that, two persons in C64 scene told me that the perspective of the house is somewhat wrong.

Thanks Crow, it worked out fine with Imgur.

[Helm]

Upload somewhere, then put the url between [*img] and [*/img] tags (without the *)

[jsl]

So directly posting images on Pixelation can't be? It has to be with an Url, well.. I even have no sites where I could post, so Pixelation might not be the thing for me, like Saimo said..

[Crow]

Check out this thread. imgur is probably your best bet for hosting.

[Anarkhya]

perspective of the house is somewhat wrong.

I agree, the rooftop especially shouldn't be horizontal, but there may be other objects that are drawn the wrong way, I think you need to trace your vanishing lines and horizon line on top of this drawing to have a clear view on what's wrong.

This is the sort of grid you need to undertand the direction of your lines: http://0.tqn.com/d/drawsketch/1/0/8/O/perpsective8example3.jpg

[Yngar]

I like your use of the C64 palette. The left side looks a lot better than the right in my opinion (once the perspective gets fixed). The leaves on the ground on the right are a little too repetitively spaced out. Maybe make the leaves more sparse, but piled up in places like under the trees, and against fence posts where leaves would realistically pile up with a light breeze.

In addition to the perspective of the house, the perspective on the stones in the road should be changed accordingly.

[Helm]

This is the perspective issue with the floor tiling. Also the red line there indicated by how the lines converge from the perspective on the building, mean that your horison line is there. So you'd have to angle down the trees a bit more and also foreshorten them towards the distance more. I like the image, otherwise. I even like it with the flat floor tiles as a symbolic effect, but you should learn to do it right either way.

[saimo]

JSL, well done again for posting here

Let me add one comment about the shadows. They suffer from a problem similar to the perspective of objects: they're not consistent neither direction-wise, nor length-wise:


(length issues not indicated)

Also, you have a strange thing going on with the house shadow: it's restricted to the low grass.

I'm glad that you managed to convey the "solidity" of the tree trunks: that's the way to go! (But the shading needs to be more consistent with the light source: at the moment you have highlights and bright sides in zones where there should be shadow.)

[jsl]

Hey all..

And I thought the picture was FINAL. I don't know how to angle down the trees.. Resize them? So, getting the shadows in place. And even with the "lines" from Helm, I want the drainpipe still in it, if I add that on top of the highest line, then the house looks quite small. I could ofcourse give it a try for second time, but maybe my second approach in adjusting things, might turn out wrongly. And actually, as graphician, I had in mind the picture was final. Help on pictures pixeling is appreciated, but even when I do the changes to this picture, the votes and comments on CSDb will be worse, with or without changes. Will loadup the picture now in Amica Paint.

Oh and whats wrong with the tiles, I just have bigger ones infront, and smaller ones in the back.

Johan aka JSL

[Anarkhya]

And I thought the picture was FINAL.

Welcome to the arena, everything "final" is never "final" enough here

if I add that on top of the highest line, then the house looks quite small.

The lines supplied by Helm are a hint on what could be the perspective in your drawing (based on some of your vanishing lines), it's not too late to change them, to adjust the camera angle, in order to offer another point of view that could give a composition that would fit your needs. But I know it can be quite frustrating or tedious to modify the whole perspective of a finished drawing, that's why for any work you'll start that is based on a visible perspective, set up the camera properly first is a must.

[jsl]

Somehow, I want to keep the trees. Also when there is a Horizon line: I don't want
to cut off the picture at that point, because the bay also would be gone etc.
Changes?

- the path infront the house got grey1 shadow
- the house got shortened on the roof giving better perspective?
- some holes in the pavement
- puddles of leaves near fence, trees and elsewhere

I would say I leave it like this, but I guess more must be done, or..

Johan aka JSL

ps: now I just saw the shadow of the path, is a bit too long..

[Anarkhya]

I found the house more convincing now. If you want some ideas on rewriting the perspective, keeping the trees visible, I think a good old railroad one point perspective like this one could fit your needs:
http://globalcitizenblog.com/wp-content/uploads/globalcitizen/railroad_tracks414.jpg

I also found something to illustrate the perspective issue with your floor tiles (diagonals instead of verticals):
http://painting.about.com/od/composition/ss/perspective-paintings_2.htm

[jsl]

Anarkhya:

A railroad is a good idea, and lots of work to implement in the path now. But, I don't know if you thought about it, when a Railroad is in the middle, it is a bit stupid having a pathway from the door of the house into the railroad.

Johan

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

He doesnt actually mean put a railway there, just use the same perspective as the rail way.

[Anarkhya]

@jSl:
hehe well, yes indeed, what Mr. Fahrenheit said, I mentioned the railroad because it seems to be a  classic stuff to learn what one point perspective involves in terms of lines and deformations, and since you have a straight path going to the horizon in your piece, it reminded me of a railroad. 

[jsl]

Like I said to Saimo on CSDb.. I will adjust the path from the house/shadow of the house. And to me this sounds, like "Autumn" is somehow to be stated "Final", I had in mind to add some Black on some leaves, but looking at how many leaves are at the ground, it is insane adding some Black pixels. Maybe the leaves are just fine here now.

[saimo]

JSL, from your PM I understand that you're a bit confused. Let me make a little recap of what's been said above 

Perspective: it is off and you started fixing it by modifying the house (); however, some major things remain to be fixed: the tiles (their direction has to follow the traces indicated by Helm and their distance must be redefined better, as conceptually indicated by the railroad) and the trees (their distance and size should reduce progressively).
Personal addition: the slanted lines you used for the house suggest a rather extreme perspective, which is not followed by the rest; I'd rather change the perspective of the house than all the rest.

Shadows: they need to be oriented and resized consistently (and I'd also rework the shading of the trees, because, given the direction of the light, they're mostly in shadow).

Leaves: their distribution is too regular: collect them close to the posts and the roots, and make them more sparse elsewhere.

P.S.: the horizontal line traced by Helm only indicates the horizon implied by the perspective of the house: it didn't mean that the picture should be cut there.

[jsl]

So basically it is this:


-change perspective of the house
-reduce the size of the trees
-change the shadows of the trees
-change the tiles


Change the perspective of the house: Whats wrong with the house, I thought
the house now seems OK. Then also I don't want to resize the trees, I like
the trees how they are now. And about the tiles: They are smaller in the
back and bigger infront, I don't know how to improve them, to me they're just
fine. Why everything must be perfect. And the shadows of the trees, again, are
just fine to call. I just have the feeling, the picture is final. And Saimo,
among others, say it isn't.

Even I don't know if it was good to join Pixelation, everything to push further
and further while I think it is Final, you guys know the difference, that some
things must be perfect.

[Anarkhya]

Well, I believe we're going into the giving-and-receiving-critiques topic.

Let me try to sum up how I think things are running here: When you submit a picture, you'll receive possibly tons of advices, feelings, edits, directions that might even be contradictory because everyone is looking at your piece with their own art background, skill levels, understandings, tastes and so on. Now, on your side, we're not forcing you to comply with everything we suggest, it is your (hard) decision to take and apply or not what has been suggested, not everyone has the time nor the will to go on forever with a piece, because, you know, there are high chances that considering the amount of C'n'C on this board,  your piece will continue to receive attention until you call for a stop and tell us you're done with your piece.

So, basically, you submit a picture, we're devouring it, you choose what pieces of meat you're bringing at home

[saimo]

@jsl

On top of what Anarkhya rightfully said, let me add that, on the other hand, ignoring or refusing to understand critique does no good to the piece (because the flaws remain), to the artist (because he doesn't learn and improve) and to future pieces (people won't feel like dedicating their time to somebody who has not paid due attention to the suggestions given on previous occasions).

Now, back to the piece...
Maybe it's a language barrier problem, but please read again thoroughly what has been told you.

About perspective: what you did to the house slightly improved things, but did not fix them. Roughly, the house follows a rather extreme perspective, the rest a milder one. You can choose to either fix the perspective of the tiles and trees (by changing their spacing/sizes), or that of the house - I personally believe that it's much easier and better-resulting to change the perspective of the house (it should never reach a perfectly horizontal level).
By the way, no matter what you change, the vertical sides of the tiles can't be perfectly vertical (but must follow the vanishing lines as indicated by Helm's traces) and their height needs some tweaking fixing anyway.

About the shadows: it's not just those of the trees, but all of them. Their sizes and directions are not consistent.

About the trees: the barks are mostly in their own shadow, so they can't have those highlights and bright areas.

Additionally, other things have been said (and some unsaid, but that's another story ): they are all in the previous posts for you to consider.

Why everything must be perfect.

Because if you don't strive for perfection you'll never become great (and probably won't even get any better).
And don't expect it to reach it any soon and, actually, don't expect it to reach it at all: we're humans, and we'll never be perfect. But that's good news, because it means that there will always be something you can get better at.

Even I don't know if it was good to join Pixelation, everything to push further
and further while I think it is Final, you guys know the difference, that some
things must be perfect.

You can call it final anytime you want, but if you don't fix the flaws that have been pointed out, it will remain flawed. Please, again, read carefully what has been told you and, if something is not clear, ask.

[jsl]

I want to name it "FINAL", you must know, make the trees smaller, adding other sort of tiles, removing the house and make a new house, fix the shadows when I even think they're quite allright, all this stuff to do........What I want to say is, why doing heaps of work, and when the picture hits CSDb, then the Sceners just vote a 3, and a 5, and more 1's. And comment that it is just another dull picture by JSL, and it's crap. Getting an overall score of 5. And we just continue to the next pixel work which gets uploaded. It is, they don't like JSL. Like said, doing heaps of work on this picture just results in bad comments, bad downvotes, etc. - Just see when I upload it. I think doing the things to this picture, isn't worth it. When it hits CSDb, it will be another crap
picture like I am delivering all the time.

[saimo]

I want to name it "FINAL", you must know, make the trees smaller, adding other sort of tiles, removing the house and make a new house, fix the shadows when I even think they're quite allright, all this stuff to do........What I want to say is, why doing heaps of work, and when the picture hits CSDb, then the Sceners just vote a 3, and a 5, and more 1's. And comment that it is just another dull picture by JSL, and it's crap. Getting an overall score of 5. And we just continue to the next pixel work which gets uploaded. It is, they don't like JSL. Like said, doing heaps of work on this picture just results in bad comments, bad downvotes, etc. - Just see when I upload it. I think doing the things to this picture, isn't worth it. When it hits CSDb, it will be another crap
picture like I am delivering all the time.

Man, do you care about the glory or do you deeply wish to get better? Do you have a passion for pixelling or for votes? If it's the former, then the answer to "why doing all that work" has already been given: to get better. If you get better, your pictures will get better (and votes will follow.) But that requires hard work. Or do you think that Michelangelo, or Beethoven, or Einstein, or Michael Jordan, you name it, were that good by luck? You can be sure that those people sweated blood to reach those levels (and never stopped doing it). And they did it because they had sheer passion for what they were doing.

[Pix3M]

I want to name it "FINAL", you must know, make the trees smaller, adding other sort of tiles, removing the house and make a new house, fix the shadows when I even think they're quite allright, all this stuff to do........What I want to say is, why doing heaps of work, and when the picture hits CSDb, then the Sceners just vote a 3, and a 5, and more 1's. And comment that it is just another dull picture by JSL, and it's crap. Getting an overall score of 5. And we just continue to the next pixel work which gets uploaded. It is, they don't like JSL. Like said, doing heaps of work on this picture just results in bad comments, bad downvotes, etc. - Just see when I upload it. I think doing the things to this picture, isn't worth it. When it hits CSDb, it will be another crap
picture like I am delivering all the time.

Screwing up is unavoidable if you're an artist. At some point though, it's better in the end to say "I spent enough time on this piece. Moving on." With that sort of mindset you can call anything final as long as you got something from it. Take what you learned to make better stuff next time. Being an artist will be even harder if you're not comfortable with the idea that you're gonna make mistakes.

[jsl]

Hey All,

I updated "Autumn" with the shadow at the path/from house, and made
the picture final (made it executable for CSDb), typed out an Comment
for CSDb, and I guess that Saimo will reply on the release of "Autumn",
upload somewhen this coming week. Still, thanks for those who helped
out with advice.

Autumn:

[Helm]

For what it's worth, here's what I meant with the perspective on the tiles.




Some further points of critique:

1. I chose a very high perspective point instead of the one I suggested in my prior edit, so it would mean the least amount of changes to the image as it is. I sympathize with your issue of having to reword everything. Here I chose to suggest that the house should be reworked. Obviously, a very rough edit, just to show what I mean, it's not pixel perfect and it certainly isn't mcol correct, but that's the easy part.

2. I gave a lot of love to the character in the middle as he's the supposed focal point of the image. I do think you should look into human anatomy and use reference for your images to come.

3. I did some sort of wash in the far background to suggest an autumn mood. Not very sure it's been successful, so take it or leave it.

4. An a final, broader point about your pessimism: We are more interested with motivating you to become better than we are interested to work against your psychological inertia. If you want to become a better pixel artist, this is the place. If you want emotional support, I'm not so sure. I sympathize with feelings of futility over artwork and all that, but I do think dwelling on scores in the csdb is bad for you and there should be a higher reason to make pictures.

[jsl]

Helm:


Wonder what you did with that house, I think I still like my house better. However I do understand now the idea on the tiles, and I really want it this way too now as a last change, I see they are in Perspective, so if I fix my tiles in that way..and few pixels wrong is already out of perspective, the puppet you did, is amazingly better than mine, I won't steal it, as I have no means of stealing, I could loadup the PNG in Project1 to steal the puppet, but it's from your hand, so I won't steal. Could print the image, then copy the puppet, then still it is from your hand when I change him. The blue fade in the back, just doesn't appeal to me. I want to do two updates on the picture, that are the tiles in perspective and a new puppet walking there. Hope no faults happen.

[saimo]

@jsl

Wonder what you did with that house,

He fixed the perspective so that it's consistent with the rest (as the previous posts indicated).

I think I still like my house better.

Please note that his is only a quick'n'dirty edit to show you the concept. If Helm wanted to redraw the house properly, the difference with your house would have been just as striking as the difference between the men.
I hope you don't take this as offensive, but it's necessary that you start understanding your limitations: as I've already told you multiple times, the "I'm already good" attitude keeps your wings tied.

Since you are willing to make other modifications, let me suggest a few other things:
 * the drainpipe is totally flat: you need to change its shading to make it look round;
 * the bird at the bottom left corner is the only element with outlines: ditch them;
 * the bird on the right is almost invisible due to poor color contrast: play with colors;
 * the animals (most notably the dog) are all in 1 color: I know the the MC limitations make it hard, but try to give them some depth by adding a hue or two.


@Helm

Thanks for the great edit.
But I must say I find the symmetrical positions of the limbs weird: knowing you, it has to be intentional, but I wouldn't want that to teach jsl the wrong way to draw walkcycles On the other hand, given that the dog is peeing (jsl, never seen a dog doing that in the middle of nowhere: conceptually I'd remove it, but it ends up being the strong point of the piece), the man isn't supposed to be walking, so the pose is slightly confusing.
(Sorry for nitpicking, but it's for jsl )

[jsl]

regarding Helm's comment and work, and Saimo's follup.. Here the updates
to the picture right now:

- drainpipe, couldn't make much of it, but did changes.
- bird on bottom left is still there only now without outlines.
- tiles are now in perspective, hope no mistakes?
- dog is more coloured.
- there came a new puppet walking, I pixeled it myself, maybe not that perfect.
- a fade to blue and purple in the back of the path.
- here and there some changes, the door, the window, the poop.
- bird on the tree, perhaps any better.

I know that you guys wanted the trees in a smaller size, or the house in
some other shape, but removing the house and trees I won't do. ;P

Should be final now? Or?

Not sure yet about the puppet/dog's shadow.

Btw. I better don't post one of my last pictures, Cool Alien, I made there
some road in perspective, and some friend said it was out of perspective,
even while the buildings have shadows to the front, the shadow on the alien
is on the left, while he also has sunlight in his glasses. The only way
you understand the picture, is.. Let's say, there two suns in the sky.
Bugjam/The Dreams said he also used once two suns in his SciFi Pics.......
No, better don't post it, Cool Alien is final.


Autumn V4.3:

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

If you dont want to change the perspective of the house, you could just add a horizon to your picture so it is more in perspective and you would only have to change a few smaller things.

Sort of like this



Obviously the tree's would have to be adjusted, as would teh path a bit and the fence. It puts the house in perspective though.

[jsl]

I don't want to come over rude. And perhaps you guys just don't like my attitude. But I keep the picture now final as it is now. Adding a Horizon, gives me more updates, and I just like it this way with the Bay and the Path in full lenght. Ofcourse I got earlier the advice of the Horizon, but I want to end Autumn for now.

[Mr. Fahrenheit]

I understand how you feel, dont worry 

[Helm]

I feel your latest version is a great step forward. I just wish for your next picture, that you share on an earlier stage so you can integrate critique without the 'is my picture Final?' shadow looming over you so much.