AuthorTopic: [Concept][WIP] Revamped project approach, comments/thoughts appreciated!  (Read 12119 times)

Offline skaytr

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Hello people, Got miself a tree.

Not sure about leaves yet, I'm thinking for a larger tree that the clusters would be spread out vertically, and less like a giant broccoli.
I Plan on painting the leaves, but I'm not sure that I like the shape right now.

The trunk is however much more finished.

And the cast shadow is subject to change with the shape of the leaf clusters/ Branches. I Plan on setting up a quick 3D model to render a proper cast shadow for reference when its finished.

I'm thinking its a little too saturated also...

And I'm really not sure about the Rim Lighting. I Suppose I'll have to wait until the leaves are finished to get the full RimLight effect, and I'd probably have to make the shadow a bit darker so it doesn't seem out of place.


First Version                                                                                                                              Final Version


Thanks again!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 03:45:42 pm by skaytr »

Offline YellowLime

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 04:53:10 pm
New threads about trees always seem to be popping up around here :lol: Figures, since they're so difficult

My opinion on the leaves of the tree:
The contrast level between the darkest and brightest shade seems too big to me.
And, the blobs of lightning aren't matching the silhouette of the leaves. So, either change the blobs or change the silhouette :P

Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 05:35:19 pm
Hmm, I'm not quite sure what you're refering to. The small blob in the middle is the only one that seems off to me, the otheres seem ok (keep in mind that those blobs are just to pick the colours as I render those areas, the light blobs towards the bottom wont be as broad)

And towards the edges I can see some clusters that would have highlights rolling around them too.

I see what you mean about the contrast though, Thats super easy to change.

I'm already working on some leaves, Might have an update by tonight :D

Thanks!

(Suuuper quick edit)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 05:44:15 pm by skaytr »

Offline Night

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 06:42:47 pm
The main problems I see in this tree are the textures and perspective.

Now, assuming that the perspective is 3/4, the roots would never appear in such a way(they look almost as if they're viewed from the front), you can fix this by, firstly defining were they will be placed with a circle or whatnot, and then actually draw them along the circle.
The crown of the tree also suffers the same issue with the perspective, but that's mainly due to the way that the light source is displayed, try making the very top of the crown (with also the lower part of the crown that the light hits) be brighter than the rest.

The only issue I'm having with the textures so far (acknowledging that you barely did anything with the crown by now), is the tree trunk itself, you usually wouldn't encounter such tree trunks, the lines would usually go almost completely straight.

Here's an edit, just so that some of the stuff I said would make more sense.  :P
There is light at the end of the tunnel.

Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 06:55:56 pm
Hmm Very interesting!

I totaly agree with the perspective, I was way off >.< (something I'm still working on. Alotttt.)

Il keep in mind the lighting on the leaves as I render them, and as for the trunks anatomy, I was going for something like these:




I do see though I  Need at least SOME Vertical growth XD

I'l see what I can do..

VERY much appreciate your thoughts kind sir!

Edit: Aslo I just noticed that My roots where just like pointy tendrils laying across the ground, I got a bad habbit of drawing that on trees, il make them round as if they were actually going underground. GAH your edit looks so goooddd haha
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 07:00:25 pm by skaytr »

Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 02:04:36 am
So Last update today. So tired.  :blind:

I took lots of things into consideration.
-The Tree now has much more form
-perspective is fixed
-Removed a few knots
-Added twisted linear fibers, which I like ALOT ( still staying along the lines of vertical forms, but more interesting) :D
-Dun dit an awesum tree.
-Sleeeeeep...

The fun starts tomorrow, LEAVES baby. Leaves.

Here she is:



UPDATE: Final version baby! Tree.2.0 !

Theres a few things I'd change in the formation of the leaves now that Its all together, but I feel at this point my time is better invested in creating other assets for my game. I had allot of fun making this tree, but it is after all just ONE of many assets haha XD Regardless, I learned allot, all thanks to you guys!

Cheers!

(Il be back)

« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 02:07:34 am by skaytr »

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 10:30:17 am
I simple don't know why you choose pixel art as a medium. Your tree has a size of 512x512(!) which is in terms of pixel art really huge and it looks like oekaki. It's made with pixels, but I personally won't call it pixel art because there is no pixel-level work.

Your last edit (the one with the "rendered" leaves) looks flat, has sloppy forms and also the wrong perspective (night already pointed out what you should do).
The only thing which is outstanding on the art is it's huge size - which could also be misunderstood the way that you don't know what's the purpose of pixel-art. Big resolution doesn't make better art - all your drawing weaknesses are also much more obvious the bigger you get.

Even if you'd apply now some pixel related technique (which doesn't make any sense for this huge resolution except wasting time) it won't get significantly better because as it looks you really have to work on your art basics.


We have lots of new people in this forum who are starting with grass textures, paths, trees and environmental stuff without even thinking about the character graphics they will use. Have you thought about your characters yet? Have you thought about how big they will get and how many more frames you need to get a smooth animation compared to smaller ones that they look believable or smooth? Have you thought about all your size relations which are usually established with character sizes? A game without animations is kinda boring.

The main problem is that a game don't consists out of a tree, a grass texture, a path, a crate, a barrel, a house and a character. This doesn't even makes 0.1% of the whole game. If you can reduce the time you spend on one game asset even a few seconds you'll save lots of hours if not days if you use your complete project as benchmark.

Reducing the resolution by half means for pixel art cutting down the total amount of pixels by 75%. The amount of pixel increases and decreases by square.
Ask yourself following questions if you actually trying to finish your game:
-Would I rather have one 64x64 texture or 16 16x16 pieces in the same timeframe?
-Do I want to work 12 years or 3 years on the graphics for my game?

The next thing is that it doesn't really make sense for most pixel artists here to help you with edits because they are usually know the sitze/work ratio and edits for this huge resolutions are taking also really long.

From my point of view you have only 2 possibilities:
-abandon pixel art and use digital painting or another technique if you want to keep the resolution
-resize it to a fitting resolution and use defined pixel art.
"Because the beauty of the human body is that it hasn't a single muscle which doesn't serve its purpose; that there's not a line wasted; that every detail of it fits one idea, the idea of a man and the life of a man."

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Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 10:42:12 am
So basically ive just wasted the last few days?

This is by far the be biggest sprite in the game. How else do u make a giant tree?

I honestly dont know what to say to your comment...  i feel like im takin two steps forward and three steps back :(


And the reason i choose pixel art for my game is because i love the old school style, and it massively reduces the sizeo the game. But clearly i have no idea what im doing, maybe I should take up knitting or something...

Edit: i thought i DID fix the persective

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 11:18:14 am
why would anybody start a game with a huge tree? Is the huge tree the main character of the game? appears it more than once or on every screen of your game? Is it important graphics wise? Does it provide gameplay? Can you interact with it?
Without a human next to it it looks like a tree nobody can't say if it's 2m 50m or 5000m big - there is no clear size reference. From the coloring it also seemed more like the standard tree in your game and not like the huge world tree from some tales-

If you are going for a retro feel, look at some retro games and their trees (resolutions). The comparison is 1:1.



Yeah you fixed it within your crude edit a bit, however You don't maintained it in your last render - you derivated from your rougher sketch.
"Because the beauty of the human body is that it hasn't a single muscle which doesn't serve its purpose; that there's not a line wasted; that every detail of it fits one idea, the idea of a man and the life of a man."

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Offline YellowLime

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 11:47:41 am
Cyangmou is basically right, your resolution is just way too big. Even if it's supposed to be some big-ass, monumental, game-defining tree, it's still too big. Half this size would be good. Define the size of the rest of the game.

If the workload increases exponentially with size, I'd say that the "impact" increases logarithmically-- ever so slowly after reaching a certain top. And I'd say that your size is way past that top. :P

Though I think he was being a bit too harsh on the "it's obvious you gotta rework your art basics". I think they're mostly fine! :y:

In any case, I'll have to say I'm impressed with the tree :P
As you said; "then I wasted these last days?". Fixing this giant to pixelart quality would take you a couple more of those.

Finally, a retarded thing I couldn't help myself not doing:

Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 11:58:40 am
I suppose in those games the characters are quite large compared to the tree, or else you wouldnt see them. I don't even know where to start lol, where would you suggest?

I do have a character concept, but it is certainly not refined enough to be an asset. Honestly though, the Art style for the game dosn't really matter to me. It's already been changed so many times, and as long as it still works with the story/gameplay mechanics that I have written, and it looks good, I don't really care...  it probably sounds like I'm kind of bypassing the artwork for the game, which is impossible. I suppose I just don't really know what I wan't yet.

Honestly I would be thrilled if my game looked like Ahriman's Prophecy, which was the game I was aiming to compare to:


If i'm not mistaken, the assets are not 1 pixel : 1 pixel ? they are blown up slightly right, should I be doing that too? For example, create 16x16 tiles, and blow them up to 32x32 in-game?

Even in here the trees are tinyy compared to mine... Doh.

This time around, the FOURTH revision of my assets, I'm going to sketch rough templates for sizes/perspectives so it dosn't get out of control. again...

Well. Considering I'm still super super new to pixel art, I've learned an awful lot. And even I was heading in the wrong direction, I can only learn from it in the end.


When I have my tree again, should I update this thread? or create a new one? Or should I start with main character first?

@YellowLime:

Yeah... lol I am not even that happy with the tree honeslty, the more I look at it the more i see the flaws. I'm only happy with time I invested into it, not giving up allong the way. I'l shrink this down and use it as a base I suppose. I have some more planning to do (yaaaaaaay)

Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 12:40:12 pm
Quote
If i'm not mistaken, the assets are not 1 pixel : 1 pixel ? they are blown up slightly right, should I be doing that too? For example, create 16x16 tiles, and blow them up to 32x32 in-game?
How does your engine work?
It depends on how you want your camera and display settings.
Widescreen, black bars, zooming etc should be given some thought.
The player views the game from what you give them, its important to see it as a whole.
You should rough a quick screen composition before making any assets.

Quote
When I have my tree again, should I update this thread? or create a new one?
You can always rename the thread and continue on if you want to change focus but keep a progression.
And knowing that it is, we seek what it is... ~ Aristotle, Posterior Analytics, Chapter 1

Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 12:53:57 pm
Hmmm... personally I love the old-school graphics of the screenshot I posted. However, maybe using 32x32 native tiles would be better. And honestly, I'ts not 2001 anymore, It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for the game to be larger than 10 MB haha ( Ahriman's Prophecy is only 10MB ).

Of course I'd love may game to look as good as possible, but I'm only 1 man, and I don't have all the time in the world :P

I'm using Game Maker for my engine btw. I already have enough knowledge to code most of the things I need, And I have the ability to scale the assets up if I need/wan't to.

I did notice that allot of the newer games from Arimanth games (ppl who made Ahriman's Prophecy) have ALLOT more colors in their pallet, and use Anti-Aliasing on everything. While there is no doubt that this looks good, I Think I'd rather stick to classic graphics and focus on unique Assets and engaging story, rather than grinding on beautiful assets and never have a completed game (especially for my first full game!).

I'l make a mock up of the scene that I wan't first.... boy, where to start haha.

Thanks guys!

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 01:04:22 pm
The image you posted is a resized jpg. Scaled pixel art looks terrible and jpgs have a shitload of artifacts due to compression. search for gifs or pngs or make your own screenshots while you are playing the game.

I found this one (it's resized to 200% but at least it's a clean screenshot)

Here you can see how it's originally pixelled

From a quick overlook I'd say it's RPG-Maker graphic and it isn't neither great from the tiling approach nor from the pixel art - so I won't recommend to use it.
It seems that you can get a lot of the stuff from here:
http://www.tekepon.net/fsm/modules/refmap/index.php?mode=map

For their newer games it seems that they use the art assets from the newer softwares which actually isn't pixel art.
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Offline skaytr

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Re: [WIP][CC] Large Tree

Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 01:43:16 pm
From a quick overlook I'd say it's RPG-Maker graphic and it isn't neither great from the tiling approach nor from the pixel art - so I won't recommend to use it.
It seems that you can get a lot of the stuff from here:
http://www.tekepon.net/fsm/modules/refmap/index.php?mode=map

Obviously I would be creating my own assets, and I would make sure they tile better and are somewhat unique. And I personnally don't have a problem with those graphics, but I do see what you mean by the tiling.

Also, Are suggesting that I myself use assets from that site? or that they are using them from that site and not creating their own?


Edit: May I ask in your opinion  of GOOD pixel art/ tiling RPG games within the past 1-3 years? and what is good about them?

I'm also thinking about completely changing the setting of the game. I'm probably way too ambitious at this point. I think I should basicaly drop the story, focus entirely on instance crawling... if I knew how to create rougelike instanced levels... I could just drop the Player in the middle of nowhere, without a town, and just go nuts XD

Theres an Android game called " Pixel Dungeon " which is super fun, and has literly no story. You just start off in a dungeon and fight your way through the floors, and its amazing! I'd probably keep my game more open world though.

Update:

I sketched something up... I quite like it, and would sitll be 95% the exact same mechanics as previously, except I have more freedom when it comes to anatomy of vegitation, I already have proceedural lighting engine in game maker for this so thats not a problem :P. I like the color pallet on this image also. I can still have "Forests" of wierd Teal/Yellow blobby vines, I can still have caverns and cliffs of the offset stones on the surface. Make-believe worlds were always more interesting.

I had planned on creating scenes like this in game anyway, But now the player is dropped right into it... youl find out why if you play the game! ^^ hehe

« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 03:44:29 pm by skaytr »

Offline Decroded

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What resolution is your game going to be?
If you're talking about 16px tiles then you're drawing the tree so big I don't understand how you think its appropriate.

Pixel art aside, its also odd to sketch an entire screen full of ground texture like that.
You could just sketch some areas then have the suggestion of the forms in other areas and patches of just blocks of colour.

I'm curious what you used as a base for you Game Maker lighting engine, or did you code yourself?

Offline skaytr

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Well, i only drew a little section of ground texture in the center, i duplicated it through the rest. I colored other tiles to see what it would look like through the entire screen. and the code i used for the lighting engine is based off of this guys awesome scripts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaDPr2Z1-lM

The shadows don't work that well with organic forms, but I basicaly removed the outlines, changed the alpha so the shaded area is always 90% black,  and made a global variable that defines the radious of the light following the player. When you collide with smaller crystals (or whatever it may be), the instance of crystal kills itself, increase the value of the global variable by a certain amount, which in turn effects the radious of the light following the play. I have a maximum amount defines aswell.

I figured for this environment, that it would be pretty dark for "Daylight" And the caves would have a seperate variable where you can only see a few feet infront of the player, unless of corse you collect cyrstals to temporarily increase the radius. I can also implement a timed element that decreases the radius over time. and another sweet feture is you can control the color of the lights! 

I'd probably use the cast-shadow feature in the caves if i can make it look more organic, But its pretty system hoggy to have multiple lights/case shadowed objects. I can only run it at 240 FPS on my beast computer haha (the other scenes run at 2200). I have it capped at 60 FPS though. smoooooth. XD

Edit: Not sure on resolution yet, and Ive decided Il use 32x32 for tiles, some sprites are taller though. Right now for testing the Game maker code I have the room sizes at 1400 x 800. My character fits snuggly inside a 64x32 sprite for his idle pose, but would need 64x64 for action animations.


Ive been doing allot of research/concepting/designing this time around, pretty excited !

Heres a WIP for the character:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 07:00:37 pm by skaytr »

Offline Pix3M

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Resolution is easily one of the first things a pixel artist needs to think about before they even start. It influences the art style, and as already mentioned it influences your working speed.

Ahriman's prophecy isn't as great as you think it is. Their door is taken straight from default RTP assets that comes with RM2k. The tree looks a lot like the tree used in FFVI: http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/ff6/sheet/6653/. Lots of stuff were taken from that First Seed Material site.

As a result from taking from multiple sources, their art style is inconsistent. RM2k RTP and FSM assets are a lot more cartoon than the more realistic looking FFVI trees. Dunno how obvious that mistake is to others but inconsistent styles would make things look more fake than it needs to.

As for the pixel art itself, a couple of stuff I might be able to bring up. The rendering uses a lot of single pixel dots which generally looks much less polished than pixel art that is done focusing on pixel clusters (blobs of colors created from same colors touching each other).  That is what makes some of the best pixel art look really polished. A low-res game I think has a solid art style with solid rendering is LoZ: The Minish Cap, if you wanna see a better example of low resolution pixel art that looks polished.

To add to what PixelPileDriver said, you're gonna want to know what the game screen looks like. It doesn't matter what a game asset looks like by itself. It's how everything meshes together into a game screen that matters. For the heck of it I just scribbles down something very basic, but you may want to start with blobs of colors just to make sure the color scheming for the environment is solid.



This is 512x384. Seiken Densestu 3 is a game that uses a similar resolution but 25% the size you're working with - 16x32 characters (more or less), 16x16 px tiles, 16x14 tiles on the screen. SD3 doesn't have any glaring problems compositionally, so I'm just gonna use them as a shortcut to say that 512x384 may be a game resolution to consider. Trees will likely be a nuisance blocking the view for being the size it is but it's probably better than smaller bonsai trees that are obviously copy-pasted.



1400x800 though, is too big, even if you didn't mean to ponder over that as a screen size it's still a convenient number for what I need.. This setup is probably good for a strategy game which individual units are merely your pawns, but it's innappropriate for a typical RPG when the game play puts emphasis on the hero. Also look at how the trees are now proportionally smaller, so you need more trees to make this scene look like a forest, and it's suddenly more obvious that this tree was blatantly copy-pasted. The more tiles on screen, the uglier the tiles look. You're also gonna get lost getting distracted by a gazillion different kinds of distractions when your hero is puny and seemingly insignificant.

Whatever sizes you work with, if they don't look good in your intended game resolution, they probably won't look good either if you try sticking them into a mockup as mere scribbles like what I did.

Also, a fun fact: you won't need anything faster than 60fps because that is about the rate human eyes work.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 05:59:43 am by Pix3M »

Offline skaytr

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Wow, thanks for that awesome reply!

First of all I would like to mention that I haven't even started tiles yet. I have literly only that environment concept, and I'm now working on my character. I was informed that the character is one of the best places to start from a community member that most inspirational to me  :D

Changing the resolution is no problem to me, I do see what you mean with a larger resolution though. Perhaps I was thinking that having a bigger resolution would (like you said) somewhat Isolate the player. It was a foolish intentional result that I hadn't put much thought into. Before I create any environment assets this will be something that I will extensively research and test.

I also feel like I should be scaling my assets up in-game... So even at slightly larger resolutions It will still look like decent Pixel Work.

When I say I'm a complete beginner, I literally mean I have never done any Pixel Art prior to starting this tree/tile set (at the top of this post), I have never created a 2D game (besides a brief side-scrolling project for College), and I'm still very new to professional quality Art/Asset production in general. I'm not just whining saying to take it easy, quite the opposite. I'm trying to gather as much information about Pixel Art and Classic RPG style Asset production as I can!  :D

Honestly I like my Character when he is scaled to a larger resolution (without AA of course).. It feels much more like the style I was going for when I first started :)

BTW here is a WIP for the run cycle. It is based of a simple run cycle from the animators survival guide. There are a few things I'm not happy with, especially at 1:1 pixel resolution. At higher ratios though it feels much less noticeable!

I'm not happy with the hair looping, it feels a bit to jerky for me
I feel his back leg/arm are not high enough contrast to his front leg/arm, and kind of gives the impression that halfway through the loop he is moving the same arm/leg again haha.
I'm also considering adding more details to his attire, which I feel would aid to the depth of the animation.
And his head turns on the wrong step... DOH lol thats something I intend on fixing later.

I'm not sure if I already mentioned it here, but it is worth noting that there are also 2D side-scrolling-platformy type levels in this game :P



Again, I don't mean to come off as immature or ungrateful, I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can before I start Asset production for the game :D - Still continuing to write/refine the story and background story etc... And concepting some more creatures for the game...

... for now though, I am just focusing on Hero, and pre-production  :y:


Edit: Keep in-mind to there will be Hud elements that creep onto the srcreen. I havent nailed anything down for that yet, but there is quite  a bit of into being displayed at any one time.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 03:20:20 pm by skaytr »

Offline Decroded

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I also feel like I should be scaling my assets up in-game... So even at slightly larger resolutions It will still look like decent Pixel Work.

Yeah there are plenty of gamers who like to see pixels so you can work at a lower res then just scale it up.

When you scale, please be sure to scale only by iterations of 100%, such as 200% or 300% (much higher can tend to get ugly).
Please do NOT scale anything at odd iterations and especially don't scale some things at different ratios to others.
For me there is nothing worse than mixed resolution junk trying to pass itself off as pixel art.
The exception to this is of course when making effects such as something being expanded or jumping out towards the camera.

Have you tried scaling the window in GM yet?
I now need to test in Studio but previous versions required a small work-around to scale without blurring so PM me if you wanna talk about that.

Offline Cyangmou

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The char looks like from a 2D sidescroller game. It looks odd in a RPG environment. It'd be good to bring in some RPG perspective.
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Offline Decroded

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The char looks like from a 2D sidescroller game. It looks odd in a RPG environment. It'd be good to bring in some RPG perspective.
He said there's some 2D sidescroller bits so I'm assuming this is for that part of the game.
If not, then yeah perspective definitely needs fixing.
It would be best if we can see examples of both perspectives.

Some similarities here with project I'm "working" (I use the word loosely) on.
I figured it was just way too much work to have explorable top-down AND side-scrolling sections so my idea is a simplified node-based overworld map.
This seems much more achievable since I can be loose and creative with the map design without worrying about tiling and such.
I'm hoping I will be able to make the map beautiful enough that viewing it is a refreshing change from the tile-based environment, and such I plan to add features that entice you to spend a little more time in the map than simply moving from point A to point G.
You may really want to do it your way which is great but just keep in mind you're pretty much doubling the amount of work involved and you may burn out once the scale of your undertaking really hits you.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 05:05:43 am by Decroded »

Offline skaytr

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Some excellent points!

The side scrolling was intended to break up the top down rpg style actually, with some deep slightly comical background parrallaxing elements hehe. Will work towards screen mock ups with a placeholder hud n stuff. And yes i will make a top down sprite for Hero :) im still tweaking the design however, so i wanna finish the sude on run cycle before i continue with him in top down.

Kinda late here, just checking in before bed.
As always, thanks again for bestowing upon me your vast pixel knowledge muahahahahaha :D