AuthorTopic: Big boobed characters in video games  (Read 95137 times)

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #240 on: April 13, 2013, 11:31:09 pm
Well, what do you think of her on re: feminism? To me she sounds like a manipulator, caressing male (and men's rights activist) ego for popularity. She is a useful sock-puppet for many males troubled by what feminism asks of them (painful fundamental re-evaluation of their patriarchical worldview) to say 'oh, she makes sense, and she's a woman, feminism is evil *phew* one less thing I have to do first-hand  studying on now, youtube set me straight'.

I could rebutt point after point from that video, but what would that help you if you're looking on youtube to make up your mind on such a complicated issue as feminism? There's bibliography and academia for years if you want. But do you? Or will she do?

Offline Ryumaru

  • Moderator
  • 0100
  • *
  • Posts: 1681
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • to be animated soonly
    • ChrisPariano
    • View Profile

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #241 on: April 14, 2013, 12:39:32 am
If you're referring to an actual video by her titled " re:feminism" you'll have to link it to me, as I was unable to find it -- all her videos deal with feminism so searches don't help.

A rebuttal point for point would be helpful to me, because I am interested in the logic and " truth" of the matter. Now, of course they are the extremists, but why should I read up on works written by females who advocate male genocide, or by women who claim to be a part of the same group as those who do? It's like reading a book written by Hitler in attempts to better understand the plight of the german people.


Anita Sarkeesian's videos ( feminist frequency) is actually where I started after they were first put up in this thread, and I can completely see how tropes and other patterns in our culture have objectified women ( for the most part)**but girlwriteswhat ( and it was actually by watching Anita's videos that youtube recommended her to me, ironically) discusses what I find to be most detrimental to feminism which is the innate hypocritical air about it. For example, The fact that it is titled FEMinism yet claims, at least in the most beneficial strain, to be for gender equality. Why not just call it gender equality? Note the idea that women having been suppressed over time and needing to make up for that by overextension is not a valid reasoning. for the sake of the whole eye for an eye makes the whole world blind type deal.

** One thing I did find odd about Anita's videos, was the fact that she does not allow comments on her tropes vs. women in video games series; the hypocritical nature of this is expounded upon by amazingathiest in a very civil nature ( and was retaliated by in a very aggressive fashion by feminists).

Girlwriteswhat's video " swordfighting the fart" talks about some of this hypocrisy:
http://youtu.be/Q7tFV2Y6Hxk

Note I don't completely agree with some of her points here, or at least I believe they are exaggerated for effect. The analogy of a scantily clad woman being a form of sexual harassment towards men in particular ( although I see the thought process).

Take this last bit with a grain of salt,and anything that sounds offensive is only written for effect: but I find it a bit humorous that you describe her as a manipulator, caressing ( nurturing) and as a sock-puppet for males. That seems to be some pretty high level stereotyping and objectification for someone who claims to be on the side of feminism. The video is 29 minutes long and it only took you 11 minutes to reply which means you did not listen to her entire argument. It's completely ok for you to dismiss it, ( I've dismissed a lot of stuff posted in this thread) but could you perhaps accept that there may be some close-mindedness on both sides? Now of course you may already have seen the video in it's entirety and be familiar with her others, but I don't think that dismisses the idea of there being close-mindedness towards her stance.

edit: how do I grammar sometimes?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 12:53:01 am by Ryumaru »

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #242 on: April 14, 2013, 06:58:53 am
I was just saying what do you think on her on the subject of feminism, not a different video. That one you linked was mooore than enough.

Feminism isn't 'one thing'. It has three waves and in its current third wave there are very many permutations. Not all feminists agree with each other on everything, and some do not even start from the same fundamental assumptions. There is no point to hold your hand through the differences now because they will not stick in your brain. What will stick is that 'Helm is pro-feminist'. Not what feminism is and what the differences of first and second and third wave are or what the most prominent writers on the subject advocate.

There are extremists in every political and ideological camp. I have never met a single feminist (and I've met many) in my life that advocated the neutering of males or any other population control. That cartoonish example chosen by your videoblogger is useful to her as a straw-man and it has worked for you splendidly. You say why should I waste my time on that extremist feminist who said we should depopulate the earth from men (you shouldn't) or by women who claim to be a part of the same group as those who do?.

What you've just done is discredit the whole women's right movement because you were presented with a crazy example. Good job.

What were the connections drawn between the crazy example and mainstream feminism (of which there are several sub-strands, mind you).

1. What she's advocating (population control) has been suggested by highly-noted mainstream feminists.

And I ask you here, Ryumaru, did you seek relevant quotes and context for her claims? Nope.

2. Since most feminists agree with the patriarchical social model (that is true, by the way) and since that model has been perpetuated by society for so long then it follows that it is in men's *nature* to be vengeful, violent, hateful and misogynistic and rapey.

This doesn't follow. She conviniently absolves the power structure of our society (that is feudalism, captialism, socialism, any underlying system itself), initself an organism for perpetuating the patriarchical model by pretending it doesn't exist and there is a group of men that structure patriarchy in some dark room, twirling mustaches.

No feminist I've known believes this.

Simple rebuttal, in human history there are known examples of matriarchical societies. If it is in man's nature to be all these awful things, how did they ever come to pass?

The patriarchy is not genetic. In fact, genetic arguments are often thrown about by the other side, by men that think men are given to raping and destruction so 'what can you do?'. The whole of gender studies rests on the possibility that much of what we consider biological predetermination might in fact not be that, but cultural programming. It seeks to examine this programming and find ways to disrupt it.

This videoblogger is playing her audience for a fool. Due to maliciousness (I think so) or incomplete knowledge (the political intersectionality of feminism seems to completely escape her).

But now that I've done this, do you know anything more about feminism itself? Did you read any Judith Butler? Or is the end knowledge that "Helm is pro-feminist"?

If I am right and this woman is full of shit, what will you do? Will you actually go and study something written by those weird feminists, or will you go to some other youtube channel for a better defense of sexism and male-dominated sociality?


Quote
The fact that it is titled FEMinism yet claims, at least in the most beneficial strain, to be for gender equality. Why not just call it gender equality?

You're falling for the oldest tricks in the book. There's practically FAQS answering this question, yet you didn't read any of them, you're just going by what you think feminism is, or more precisely what they've taught you through the media feminism is. Let's see, why do they call it FEMinism and not gender equality?


Quote
** One thing I did find odd about Anita's videos, was the fact that she does not allow comments on her tropes vs. women in video games series; the hypocritical nature of this is expounded upon by amazingathiest in a very civil nature ( and was retaliated by in a very aggressive fashion by feminists).

Getting rape and death threats every day for months will teach you to control your space in such a way. Nothing's stopping anyone who has an opinion on Anita's videos from making a reply on their own videos or blogs. And that's precisely what has happened. So this is a non-issue, and again, you're falling for the simplest stuff.


Quote
and as a sock-puppet for males. That seems to be some pretty high level stereotyping and objectification for someone who claims to be on the side of feminism.

You don't understand what objectification is.

Quote
The video is 29 minutes long and it only took you 11 minutes to reply which means you did not listen to her entire argument.

I'm very well aware of her and I've seen many of her videos over time.

Quote
( I've dismissed a lot of stuff posted in this thread) but could you perhaps accept that there may be some close-mindedness on both sides?

Nope.

Quote
Now of course you may already have seen the video in it's entirety and be familiar with her others, but I don't think that dismisses the idea of there being close-mindedness towards her stance.

I have and yep, nope. I understand her stance completely and it is misinformed either willfully or due to ignorance. And it's doing her job excellently. This is a very important juncture where you have to either follow her example or go and educate yourself. When -and I hope- you do, we can actually disagree on real things because feminism is not a monument. Right now we're disagreeing on shadows of things, on manipulations of lies and half-truths so you can comfortably discredit a whole movement.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 07:03:57 am by Helm »

Offline Ryumaru

  • Moderator
  • 0100
  • *
  • Posts: 1681
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • to be animated soonly
    • ChrisPariano
    • View Profile

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #243 on: April 14, 2013, 10:55:01 am
1. She mentioned Valerie Solanas and Robin Morgan. Valerie was obviously a nut who was unfortunately abused as a child ( I see evil being the problem here, and the men in her life only vehicles of it). You would have to tell me if Valerie is a " noted" feminist- undoubtedly she is a popular example and extremist. Upon brief search I did not find any full original texts by Robin Morgan that advocated anything in the way of male castration or genocide but I would assume girlwriteswhat had some text in mind when making that statement. Perhaps I will ask her.

2. I would hope no feminist believe in the twirling mustachers, obviously an exaggeration that is hinting at how patriarchy is often described as feminists as "behind the scenes" and of silent influence, often told to males who say they don't see it or believe it exists.

I should note here that I clearly see qualities of " the patriarchy" influencing society and culture. Girlwriteswhat talks about it as if it doesn't exist at all. I believe it's not as oppressive as some may make it out to be, but it's surely there.

It seems clear to me that she does not believe that man's nature is " vengeful, violent, hateful and misogynistic and rapey" She is linking it as an interpretation of patriarchy ( so by interpretating something she doesn't believe in, she does not see the interoperation to be the case, but only a logical path of thought.)

There are always exceptions to the rule, and the matriarchy examples you list I'm sure would be far outnumbered by patriarchal societies.

Claiming the patriarchy is not genetic and placing it purely on culture is a bold, and I believe, a false claim to make. Can you show me scientific studies that discredit the facts that higher levels of testosterone in men are linked with higher libido, increased muscle mass, and aggression? These ARE part of man's nature, certainly biological, and all are roots of behaviors such as rape and war.
If in fact it is found that testosterone has no effect on these behaviors I would wholeheartedly renounce my belief that much of what is seen as the patriarchy and gender inequality is based in biology, but for now, the links seem to obvious for me to ignore.

I have two problems with feminism. One is that of a myriad of practitioners based on my admittedly limited and anecdotal experience with females that claim to be feminist ( once you've heard enough stories or seen enough poor practitioners it tends to stick in your mind. Perhaps the extremists and nutcases are more vocal and their behaviors more likely to stick to my mind than more mild counterparts). Too often have I experienced women who claim to be feminists and seek gender equality but still expect the dogmatic chivalry of males, the special treatment, and favor in matters of incarceration, child custody, and drafting in times of war.

The other is that I believe equality is too hazy a concept to apply to the genders, especially when there are indeed differences between them. There is of course a line between treating someone differently, and treating someone equally. For example I believe some of the above has been created for a reason. Child custody favors females due to fact that they have more biological investment with the child than the father. Women are not part of the draft because they are considered special and who's life is of higher priority ( save the women and children!). This treatment is both different and unequal.


What is your stance on the matters above? If males and females were treated the exact same across the board, but then given the additional privileges above, obviously females would then be in the superior position. Which might be fine for some, but certainly would not be gender equality. But if not, there would probably be many females that feel their specific needs are not being met. If you try to give females those privileges and attempt to balance out the genders on a topic specific
basis, you're then just asking for convoluted trouble.

If feminism is not actively fighting for men's rights then they are not practicing gender equality completely. I am fine with feminism claiming to be for the equality of gender by focusing on and bringing up suppressed females, but it should always be stated as such, and it should be made clear that feminism is favoring the female in that manner.

You would have to debunk a lot more than 2 points, of which it seemed there was some misinterpretation or oversimplification on your part for me to believe she's " full of shit". I came to Anita's videos with as open a mind as I could, and like I said they led me girlwriteswhat who gave a stance on the matter that has a followable train of thought, with points seem equally as likely, if not more likely in some cases to the analogous counters in feminism.

It seems at the very least, we do disagree on one thing that is very real, and that is the nature of patriarchy, and male behavior being connected to biology or culture. I am of the thought that testosterone is undoubtedly linked to violence, aggression, and sex drive, and that these connections extend themselves into how males behave towards women and that this in turn is what culture, and patriarchy is molded upon. It seems that you are of firm belief that it is purely cultural and so either of our attempts to say otherwise will probably fall upon deaf ears.

While on the surface it may seem that I am unchanged and discrediting the movement of feminism, I will say that really is not the case. Your replies and other posts in this thread have gotten many gears stirring in my head. So much so that I've spent well over an hour writing all of this. Not much has changed in my opinion of the matter, but the wiring behind it has become much more complicated. Feminism is something I would have to dedicate a large chunk of time too to give it full justice, and as it stands I have too many things on my personal agenda of higher priority for me to read all the text that I would need to. I thank you for the time you have given me and your attempt to entertain my replies as best you can.

tldr: I don't think girlwriteswhat is completely full of shit. I think testosterone is very much linked to male behaviors that would create a patriarchy, making it's source at least partially biological. I've spent enough time as it is on this thread and while it has it's benefits, the returns are diminishing and there is little point in further discussion on my part so I thank you for your time that you have given me and will promptly immerse myself in painting which is where I ought to be.

Offline Ymedron

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 306
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • All draw and no paint!
    • View Profile
    • My Deviantart account

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #244 on: April 14, 2013, 12:15:44 pm
(as a side note, I do advocate preventative measures for population control - mainly, encouraging people to plan their families and trying to make it so families in poorer countries don't have to have a ton of children.
Basically two children aren't going to increase the population because they replace their parents, and since there are people who die without having a child, the population will decrease slightly.
I can't imagine anyone who seriously advocates neutering males, as it doesn't do anything. Like a certain silly poem said, "the rest of them just have a better time".)

Edit: I was going to mention something about neutering females being similarly cruel and unneeded, but oops they have done exactly that in some african countries if I remember right.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 12:33:00 pm by Ymedron »
Also my art tumblr: ymedronart.tumblr.com

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #245 on: April 14, 2013, 04:24:32 pm
Quote
Perhaps I will ask her.

Why not do that? Until you clear that one out, her connection between crazy man-neutering straw-man and feminism at large is unsupported. I hope we agree. That's one leg of her argument in the air.

Quote
It seems clear to me that she does not believe that man's nature is " vengeful, violent, hateful and misogynistic and rapey" She is linking it as an interpretation of patriarchy ( so by interpretating something she doesn't believe in, she does not see the interoperation to be the case, but only a logical path of thought.)

Obviously she doesn't think that men are all these things by nature, she paints the picture that feminists do. They do not.
Generally, Ryumaru, you will find that biodeterminist points of view are endorsed in this argument by the side of anti-feminists. They say men are predisposed to rape because they're testosterone-fuelled warriors (what a fantasy!) so women should take extra precaution to avoid being raped by men. Hence, rape culture. Feminist gender theory says that what we consider to be 'fundamentally male and female' behaviour in society is influenced by THE society in a far larger extent than we do believe. And they make this case in a looot of books which interest you. I would start with "The History of Sexuality" by Michel Foucault. (http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2011/07/07/driving-the-patriarchy-demonic/ this is also a good read)

So, the video-blogger is attributing a genetics-heavy point of view to feminists, which is quite insidious because that's the terrain on which the opposition plays. And so she has flattened the argument to this, and that's all you've followed.

Quote
Claiming the patriarchy is not genetic and placing it purely on culture is a bold, and I believe, a false claim to make.

Not purely but mostly. It's not. It's the main argument about gender roles in modern study on the subject. It's just so for you because you're not following the modern study. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inevitability_of_Patriarchy Here's a scientist that made much the same claim and has recieved a lot of critique for his position. You can follow that bread crumb trail if you want.

Quote
Can you show me scientific studies that discredit the facts that higher levels of testosterone in men are linked with higher libido, increased muscle mass, and aggression? These ARE part of man's nature, certainly biological, and all are roots of behaviors such as rape and war.

Here's a good overview for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape if you thought this was a clear-cut issue, you were mistaken.

Quote
If in fact it is found that testosterone has no effect on these behaviors I would wholeheartedly renounce my belief that much of what is seen as the patriarchy and gender inequality is based in biology, but for now, the links seem to obvious for me to ignore.

I'm glad you feel that way because if you do the research you won't be so certain of anything afterwards. You will not find that testosterone has no effect on these subjects, but you will find WHAT kind of effect and how it is strategically overplayed by the ruling class to get get out of jail free passes because after all, if it's natural *at all*, we shouldn't fight it *in any respect*. From your above statement I'll be glad if were there 100% foolproof evidence, you would wholeheartedly renounce your belief set. So if there is less conclusive evidence, you will less-wholeheartedly but somewhat loosen up on your belief set and be prepared to do more study to get to the bottom of these ambiguitites. That's what I want. If you were to completely abandon anything you believe in because of 30 lines of text on a message-board, that would make you a very strange being, psychologically. So I don't expect that nor want it. I just want for the seed of doubt to fall in between the cracks of machienery you've been told is natural for all your life. If it takes root it will grow and you're a smart person, you won't be able to ignore it, you will do more study on your own time not locked in some internet debate.

Quote
There are always exceptions to the rule, and the matriarchy examples you list I'm sure would be far outnumbered by patriarchal societies.

You misunderstand. That there have been *any* matriarchical examples in human history would be impossible were men naturally predetermined to establish a patriarchy. Why would they at some point, if not due to cultural reasons, wield and surrender power to women? Do you follow my train of thought? If it's mostly genetics, those do not change from a thousand years to the next thousand years. Genetics take a looooong time to be altered in a significant way, especially deep survival instinct drives. How could matriarchical societies, where the role of the male and the female were extremely different, ever pop up in various places at various times and function? That's the other leg of her argument in the air.

Quote
The other is that I believe equality is too hazy a concept to apply to the genders, especially when there are indeed differences between them. There is of course a line between treating someone differently, and treating someone equally. For example I believe some of the above has been created for a reason. Child custody favors females due to fact that they have more biological investment with the child than the father. Women are not part of the draft because they are considered special and who's life is of higher priority ( save the women and children!). This treatment is both different and unequal.

These are popular wagging sticks of Men's Right Activists to show that women are overpriviledged. You ask me what I think about them. I think that neither men nor women should be subject to any mandatory military service, and that that men do currently is patriarchical oppression that also targets males (yup, that also happens). I also believe that a child should always be given custody of to the most capable parent to support it and that this should be found in an unbiased court, which is supremely difficult to expect in a patriarchical society.

Quote
What is your stance on the matters above? If males and females were treated the exact same across the board, but then given the additional privileges above, obviously females would then be in the superior position.

Yes but males and females are not treated the exact same across the board. Were they to be, I would be asking for a normalization of these extra priviledges too.

Quote
I am fine with feminism claiming to be for the equality of gender by focusing on and bringing up suppressed females, but it should always be stated as such, and it should be made clear that feminism is favoring the female in that manner.

You have not read any feminist theory though, am I right? Can you give sources of third-wave feminism where you've found that the position supported is that females should end up with more rights than males? Or is this something you've picked up from people who criticize feminism on the whole because some convinient extremist said something that suits that purpose?

Quote
You would have to debunk a lot more than 2 points, of which it seemed there was some misinterpretation or oversimplification on your part for me to believe she's " full of shit".

Tell me if you really think I've misinterpreted or oversimplified in my two critiques still.

Quote
It seems at the very least, we do disagree on one thing that is very real, and that is the nature of patriarchy, and male behavior being connected to biology or culture. I am of the thought that testosterone is undoubtedly linked to violence, aggression, and sex drive, and that these connections extend themselves into how males behave towards women and that this in turn is what culture, and patriarchy is molded upon. It seems that you are of firm belief that it is purely cultural

Not purely but very much so. I don't expect you at any point in such a discussion to budge. I just want you to do the studying.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 04:53:46 pm by Helm »

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #246 on: April 14, 2013, 06:32:47 pm
Is there a reason why we can't work for equality between genders, for both genders, at the same time?

I've also encountered the Girlwriteswhat videos and I also thought i was a bit pandering, but still brought up some good points.

edit:

I think there's always going to be a certain level of hypocrisy when it comes to these things.
Especially when sexuality is thrown into the mix.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 07:08:45 pm by Seiseki »

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #247 on: April 14, 2013, 08:49:56 pm
Do you think men need a men's right movement, or do their rights get covered by gender-neutral socialist activism and grassroots politics that protect worker rights and so on?

Offline Cure

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/2621.htm
    • facebook.com/logantannerart
    • View Profile

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #248 on: April 14, 2013, 10:22:35 pm
Pretty much the only bias I experience due to being a male is having to take out the trash and lift heavy things.

Outrageous! I am hereby forming the "Open Your Own Pickle Jar" movement, all men aboard!

Offline Helm

  • Moderator
  • 0110
  • *
  • Posts: 5159
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
    • Asides-Bsides

Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #249 on: April 14, 2013, 10:35:53 pm
The world of men's right activism is so toxic that I bet I can find you videos online from people who are *steaming* that they are asked to lift heavy things / open jars and expound on the ramifications of this horrifying oppression to no end.