AuthorTopic: Big boobed characters in video games  (Read 95083 times)

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #80 on: January 20, 2013, 02:40:29 am
First of all I have to say that Im very thankful to Helm for standing up on this, I would have probably left the discussion a lot quicker if this was not the case.

And now.
Quote
But I can't fully accept it still, it's like some kind of anti-norm, anti-opression that turns into another type of oppression suffocating the way I'm used to express myself.
The long list of "rules" makes me not want to engage in these kinds of topics, rather than keep breaking the rules, it totally kills any curiosity I used to have and it feels completely depressive.
As the site points out, people who are privileged (I actually don't like that word, tumblr social justice retards have ruined it for me. But I shall use it.) are used to having their opinions heard and accepted as the norm. That's why it is important to have that checklist - to remind that the discussion can't always be in your favor.

Why isn't this thread oppressive if you can't express your opinion that feminism is not that big of an issue? (which is what I gather you are trying to say?)
Because you can make a new thread right now, saying exactly that and I can guarantee you that you won't get called out on that. Or if you do, you'll have way more defenders than Helm and others have had. Unless society takes a radical turn, your opinions and ideas are going to be taken seriously in most situations regarding this. You won't get threatened or laughed at, and you won't get silenced or feel stupid for responding to a thread about your issues.
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Offline #36005A

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #81 on: January 20, 2013, 03:28:48 am
As the site points out, people who are privileged (I actually don't like that word, tumblr social justice retards have ruined it for me. But I shall use it.)

It is definitely a problem when people callously belittle others in places like Tumblr under the guise of "social justice." It gives a bad name to a good cause. That said, "privilege" is the academic language and the most convenient one to describe a thing that exists. I think the best way to cancel out poor use of the word is to use it properly and in informed discussion. So thank you for continuing to use it despite its bad reputation.

And yeah I am really glad that Helm and others are standing up on this issue.

As helm points out, as privileged males we can only have a privileged male conversation.
But I don't want to see the world in black and white like this. Maybe I'm just naive.

I'm not sure if I'm getting your message here—and please let me know if I'm wrong—but I think you're saying that it seems somewhat hopeless or worthless to have this conversation, as a privileged male. I think that's definitely not true.
Again I'm really just repeating the article here, but once you have accepted your own privilege, you actually can make a big difference by drawing attention to issues within your own peer group. I think that's what Helm and others have been doing quite successfully in this thread. Remember that as a privileged person, you are automatically given a voice that those without privilege are not. If you can help call others in your peer group on bad behavior—whether that might be game developers or members of an internet message board—you are helping. (And to repeat myself from my reply to Ymedron: you have to be careful that you are not using it as a way to get power over people by belittling them, but instead trying to introduce people to ideas that they may not have been exposed to previously.)

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #82 on: January 20, 2013, 08:10:28 am
Seiseki, it takes time to wrap one's mind around the issue of privilege and everyone I know (hardline feminists included) has to stop and readress their privilege-related behaviour once in a while. So that feeling you're feeling now will settle, but it won't pass - the nice thing about humans is that they can't unlearn. So you now are seeing a set of tools through the mist that are very useful but whose usage comes at a high cost. There are artifacts of modernity - of every-day life that make absolutely no sense if they're not approached with a similar toolset. When things happen around you that you can't process usefully, they're even more hurtful to you. Now you will start spotting privilege around you and you will start to see who the patriarchical model is benefitting. But when you point it out you will be branded as an Other as well.

This is a long process and depending on your age and vocation and propensity for speaking with those outside your peer group it may even be longer. What I do suggest, if you do have free time, is to read on gender studies and if you have the courage, to attend any feminist meeting that is in your area where you are in Sweden. From the first you will come to terms with a theoretical framework, extra tools to explain how we got to where we are and where to go from here and from the latter you will see the human face of struggle. From feminism to humanism and from humanism to anticapitalism is a good way to structure these studies because there is a larger class struggle issue at work.

These studies are in my opinion are as important as anything you can learn about pixel art here. They inform everything we do here. Think about it: Pixelation is an open service, people take time out of their busy lives to help others regardless of sex, age (mostly), nationality, sexual identity or politics and all they ask for in return is that if they benefit, they try to help others too. This is quite against the rules of the market and Pixelation could have been monetized a long time ago and could possibly have made a little money for Sven who runs the server. Why do you think we do not do this?

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #83 on: January 20, 2013, 11:28:46 am
Why isn't this thread oppressive if you can't express your opinion that feminism is not that big of an issue? (which is what I gather you are trying to say?)

Yeah, I understand that I'm coming across like that..
But feminism is not something new to me, I take a lot of it for granted. But I was only aware of some of the underlying structures in society.
This tool used to describe privilege however, it might be needed for any kinds of change to be made. But no two persons will have the same amount of privilege.
I want to believe that people are individuals first and that you can't take a whole group and force them into the same box.. (obviously every has certain kinds of prejudice, myself included)
So of course I'm having a problem with this kind of mindset.
And I've never been engaged in the feminist movement, but I've always respected it and agreed on the idea of both genders being equals.

You won't get threatened or laughed at, and you won't get silenced or feel stupid for responding to a thread about your issues.

I was going to post something really personal but.. "Don’t Make It About You" So let me say that no, I'm not the norm, far from it.

So.. let's get this back on topic.

In japan they have segregated anime and manga into shoujo/shounen, girl/boy.
Does this increase sexism and enforce gender roles, or is it a way to appeal to both sides at the same time?
Should video game appeal to one of the sexes at a time?
Should they appeal to both sexes at the same time, or none of the sexes?

This is what I'm really curious about.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 11:47:48 am by Seiseki »

Offline Ai

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #84 on: January 20, 2013, 01:14:21 pm
Quote
Should they appeal to both sexes at the same time, or none of the sexes?
Are you talking about sexualization, or sexiness? Because, as Helm implied before and I tried to reinforce, you can have a sexy character without having them be sexualized. It's all about whether they remain a 'person'; that any sexiness is for reasons relating to who they are as a character and not merely because 'more sexiness sells more'. It's not an issue of who to appeal to, but HOW to implement that appeal. Do you take the cheap, cultural-default path "it's sex, it's automatically compelling and doesn't have to make sense" or actually give your characters, regardless of sex and gender, lives in which sex is only one part? And have the camera look at the parts of the characters that tell the story, rather than the parts that the audience is presumed to have a prurient fascination with?

Also it's very hard to ask that kind of question (.. 'both sexes' 'or none') in a way that doesn't alienate bisexual and/or transgender people. Just to be clear, yes I am offended. But more importantly this is another example of privilege: heterosexual privilege. The context of your question implies that bisexual and transgender people don't exist, and this implication largely passes without challenge.
All these different factors and privileges that can be involved highlight how confusing and difficult trying to say things in a fair and accurate way can be.  I say that to highlight that the question of how feminist you -actually- are, is certain to have a much more complex answer than any you have yet arrived at.
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Offline Crow

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #85 on: January 20, 2013, 01:21:12 pm
In Japan they have segregated anime and manga into shoujo/shounen, girl/boy.

For the record, I am male, and I watch pretty much every anime, as long as it's actually good.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #86 on: January 20, 2013, 01:51:40 pm
Also it's very hard to ask that kind of question (.. 'both sexes' 'or none') in a way that doesn't alienate bisexual and/or transgender people. Just to be clear, yes I am offended. But more importantly this is another example of privilege: heterosexual privilege. The context of your question implies that bisexual and transgender people don't exist, and this implication largely passes without challenge.
All these different factors and privileges that can be involved highlight how confusing and difficult trying to say things in a fair and accurate way can be.  I say that to highlight that the question of how feminist you -actually- are, is certain to have a much more complex answer than any you have yet arrived at.

I'm Sorry and I'm not following you at all on this one..
I thought bisexual people wouldn't have a specific preference due to liking both sexes and transgender people would identify with one of the sexes or none.
(sorry if this is offending)

Offline Basketcase

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #87 on: January 20, 2013, 04:03:39 pm
In japan they have segregated anime and manga into shoujo/shounen, girl/boy.
Does this increase sexism and enforce gender roles, or is it a way to appeal to both sides at the same time?

It's clearly reinforcing gender roles. By making a show 'for boys' and not girls (and vice-versa), you're setting up different expectations for the audiences. This holds true even if the company is spending the same amount of resources on stuff for the opposite genders. Same story with toy companies. Hell, clothes companies too.

It certainly is a way to appeal to both sides. But perhaps it is more interesting to ask whether it's effective compared to the alternative: producing universal content aimed at no specific gender. That's hard to judge. You can't run a controlled experiment. But you can infer from some theoretical considerations. It's a given that presently, gender roles in children are quite well established. So girls and boys actually, generally, have different interests. Therefore targeting those markets specifically should yield profitable results. I've skipped some steps in the logic, but I don't think my suppressed premises are too controversial.

So, with that established, you may find it more interesting to ask whether it is ethically correct to target girls and boys with entertainment based on gender, whether gender roles can be effectively eroded with entertainment-propaganda, and the desirability of doing so, etc.

So, pixel art!

How sexist would you say the oeuvre of prominent pixel craftsman Paul Robertson (nsfw) is? :D

(Damn, I wrote more than I had really intended. What I mostly really wanted to do was just post the above link. Make sure you go though all pages, 5 or so total!)
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Offline Ashbad

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #88 on: January 20, 2013, 04:15:58 pm
How sexist would you say the oeuvre of prominent pixel craftsman Paul Robertson (nsfw) is? :D








I assume this was a rhetorical question?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2013, 04:17:46 pm by Ashbad »

Offline Crow

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #89 on: January 20, 2013, 04:31:11 pm


Well, DQ's Jessica already looks like that in the game, and is bouncing up and down on an angry nikuman here. That's rather cute :-X
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