AuthorTopic: Big boobed characters in video games  (Read 95562 times)

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #60 on: January 19, 2013, 02:06:43 pm

Yes but at least that is acknowledging the fact.

This isn't an issue of facts that need to be stated at all cost. It's an issue of narratives, combating narratives struggling for attention space. When we have a discussion about the objectification of out groups in media, we do not need to insert the narrative of the objectification of the in group in media unless it informs the former.

How bad men have it does not inform sexual objectification of women in videogames.

Can we have a discussion about something that isn't directly relevant to our experience for a moment, or does everything have to be about us? How privileged are we, really?

Psychologically the "yes... but us too!" reflex has to do with when we subconsciously realise we've been shits by supporting a shitty culture and we race to find something that makes us good guys again... we have made women suffer buuuuuuuttttt... we suffer too! Everything's right inside now.

Don't do this. Stay on topic. If we're discussing feminism, we should be discussing feminism.


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And I'm not saying that as a diversion, it is because I have personal experience of it.
It doesn't make sense for feminism that is supposed to mean equality between sexes to only acknowledge one side.

Why? Feminism is about women's rights advocacy. You and I - as males - are not included. We can be - and should be - pro-feminist, but we can't be feminists. We can support women in their fight for their rights in any way we can, but it will never be our fight. If they win their fight, we also gain much, but that doesn't make it our fight. Not everything has to be about us and include us. How privileged are we?

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While placing all the blame on the other. We're all following the gender roles society has imposed on us.

You misunderstand most common strands of feminism - they do not blame 'us', or 'men'. They blame the patriarchy which is a structure that IS man-made but it's not made of men. It's a construct that is oppressive to all and serves the capital. You should do some reading before you describe feminism.

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And it's not like a baby boy comes out of the womb and is all like "oh yeah let's enforce some gender roles!"
Women and men alike teaches children to enforce them and it is only recently that it's become a trend to try and break those norms.

Trend is an ugly word to describe [a couple of centuries of struggle.

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Well I'm lucky that I live in Sweden where people take this seriously.
And I dare to say no other country takes it as serious.

Good for Sweden. You've got reading to do and people to speak before you can say YOU take it seriously, however.

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About obesity, I think it's sad that we're seeing a trend where some just give up and try accept their obesity as a good thing.

That's an incredibly prejudiced thing to say. Stop using the word 'trend' (which describes fashions in popular culture) to describe the sometimes superhuman struggles minorities have to endure to get equal treatment. Here, let me put it in a different way.

"About homosexuality, I think it's sad that we're seeing a trend where some just give up and try accept their homosexuality as a good thing."

The only way to stop thinking in normative terms is to have your male privilege challenged through study and discussion with people who are out of the norm. Talk on this matter with actual feminists, gay people, proudly fat people, don't talk to some male, white, straight, middle-lower class Greek nerd on an art forum.

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In the same way we see people being proud of being ignorant or uneducated, these are sometimes the same people.

Congratulations, you have equalized body types with stupidity and ignorance. That's the closest you can get to commiting murder in philosophical terms.

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I mean being an anorectic model is also bad for your health and a terrible ideal, but so is being proud of your obesity.
It makes me think the US is going in the completely wrong direction.

You are not in control of where the US or anywhere else is going. If an anorexic model wants to be proud of herself, I fully support her. If a fat person wants to be proud of themselves, I fully support them. If they then change their mind and feel there's negative impact on their helath by their choices, I will fully support them then. I will not support those who hide behind normative culture as a shield and use the power of 'normal' to hurt others. We must stand with those who are weak in our societies until they are no longer weak.

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I mean here  in Sweden we have [...] trends

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In the US you have trends

Stop.

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Of course it can be changed, but that might just be suppressing instincts and desires. Which everyone needs to do on some level to be a civilized person.

There is also the sublimation of low drives. Look it up.

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edit: By the way, we already have a pixel piledriver thread that covers the male gaze.. (and maybe every other thread too)
Can't we start a thread for the female gaze, with sexualized men?

No.


Erekt,

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I think that's a problem with this whole discussion. We are trying to generalize about gender roles in society, but even within our group of predominantly straight white middle-class males as you put it there's plenty of variation to be had.

Actually I do not see this variation. The reactions we've had so far are mostly luke-warm, everyone seems to be downplaying the issue. This is what privilege does, it makes us not care about the Other, at best, hate them, at the worst. And because Pixelation people are artists and introverts mostly, we do not get the outright worst. But we get indifference and 'meh' and 'nothing can be done'.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 02:08:49 pm by Helm »

Offline Ai

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #61 on: January 19, 2013, 02:15:33 pm
Also, I want to point out that if someone is saying "oh it's terrible how they sexualize woman in media" and I say  "Yeah, they should sexualize both genders equally" and the other person thinks that's a terrible idea, no one should be sexualized. Then it's not only about sexism.
True. I think it could be said to be about depersonalization, of which the most visible instance is sexism. If you have a character that flaunts their sexuality, they should do that because you have something to say or question with that. In that case the character remains person-like; they don't exist 'because sex appeal is needed', although they as a character may for example be portrayed as feeling that sex is the reason they go on living; that would be highlighting their own depersonalization of themselves, while preserving the audience's ability to understand their person-ness.

Would write more but sleep beckons. I'll see what I have to add tomorrow.
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Offline PixelPiledriver

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #62 on: January 19, 2013, 02:31:01 pm
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I think there's a pink-haired dominatrix character in Street Fighter or Tekken now with 2/3 of her bodyweight carried in her bra and the rest in her hips.
It doesn't add much to the discussion but since someone mentioned Poison I thought I'd point out that shes trans sexual.



Note the very clear bulge in her pants.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #63 on: January 19, 2013, 02:51:06 pm
Ok, so I'm not taking feminism seriously, but I'm also not taking hunger issues, global warming, racism and other things seriously either.
I'm aware that they exist and something should be done, but I'm not really doing much nor reading into it, but I still find it interesting and like everyone else I have an opinion.

But you can't have a feminist movement that doesn't acknowledge the problem of gender roles for both parts.
It's fair to say that one side has it worse and focus should be on them, but if you go too far you'll only make the privilege men defensive and push them away.
Which I think is shown clearly in this topic, and that doesn't help anyone, especially not the feminist struggle against the patriarchy.

When I read your response it's like you're trying to depersonalize the conversation, I thought this was about sharing opinions and thoughts.
All I hear from your side is, "These are the facts, read up on them, stop discussing your own experiences, face the facts, you are privileged"

Yes, I'm privileged, but even so I'm just a product of society like anyone else.
Do I have more responsibility because of this, well maybe, probably.

I'm not sure what kind of action or response you're trying to incite?

----------------------

As for the obese issue, you're saying that overweight people are who they are..
But it's a condition.. It's not something you're born with, like sexual preference, gender, color of your skin.
I could become an obese person if I wanted to, but I can't become homosexual or black no matter how much I want it.

I've seen people compare obesity to a handicap, and that's offensive to me. A handicapped person can't do anything about their situation.
Yet an overweight person has all the power in the world to make a change for the better.
And yes I can say that being normal weight is better, because it's healthy, there's nothing else to it.

A lot of obese people are addicted to food the same way a smoker is addicted to smoking. Yet people who smoke are being more and more discriminated against, because smoking is not a human right, neither is eating too much food, drinking too much alcohol, taking drugs.
It's simply things people do that are unhealthy.

I don't need to talk to a proud drug addict or proud alcoholic to realize it's harmful..
Because those people have, instead of dealing with their issues, simply chosen to accept them, because the struggle might be too painful.
I have personal experience of this as well.

And I would never support a person eating or starving themselves to death.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:11:08 pm by Seiseki »

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #64 on: January 19, 2013, 03:14:09 pm
Yes, you are taking none of those topics seriously if you're not reading up on them and discussing them with people who are personally invested in their solutions.

There's many types of discussion. Not all are worth having at every occasion. Some actively hurt the visibility of the cause they're discussing by muddying the waters with ill-informed opinions, tautologies and ignorance. I do not want to promote a discussion on feminism in Pixelation with no stakes; If you don't want to do any reading, you're not discussing the issue, you're discussing me and you, that's what you'll get instead of the issue: insight into the people discussing.

That's well and good, but not to the expense of important real-world stuff like that. If that's the level you want to discuss this issue on and are not interested in doing any actual reading on the subject that isn't formatted as a conversational post, then I'll bow out.

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Yes, I'm privileged, but even so I'm just a product of society like anyone else.
Do I have more responsibility because of this, well maybe, probably.

I'm not sure what kind of action or response you're trying to incite?

The kind of action I am trying to incite is for you to go and do the reading involved in order to have an educated opinion on a subject that deals with the rights and future of half of this planet. It's not very complicated, what I am trying to do. What are you trying to do in this thread?

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #65 on: January 19, 2013, 03:22:52 pm
A small point, there are overweight people who are actually born with the propensity to become overweight. It's not as simple as "eat less!", there are some physical illnesses that cause obesity.
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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #66 on: January 19, 2013, 03:26:36 pm
I have no idea what I'm doing in this thread..  ;D

I thought this was a place where you could just discuss anything from any perspective.
Are you sure you're not the one trying to enforce something you feel passionate about?

I mean, feminism is important, it's already a view that is being enforced in Scandinavia.
But so is starvation, racism, oppression, discriminations of any other forms.
And right now I feel that a lot is being done to address the issues of gender roles and equality among sexes, at least in my own country.
Stuff like democracy and rights are even more important for there to even be a voice or platform from which to work from.

But you're right when saying that this should probably be about video games.
So what's wrong with sexualizing both genders in a game like Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball, which is obviously only intended as a cheap selling point.

I'm also of the opinion that more girls need to make games, that's the only way this will ever pan out.
Since males can't see things from a female perspective and vice versa.
So the real problem lies with a lack of women in the industry and an industry and community which is hostile against women.

A small point, there are overweight people who are actually born with the propensity to become overweight. It's not as simple as "eat less!", there are some physical illnesses that cause obesity.

It doesn't really change the fact that a majority of people are overweight because of lifestyle choices.
Which is pretty much solely based on what culture you're raised in. But that doesn't make it right nor healthy.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 03:31:43 pm by Seiseki »

Offline ptoing

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #67 on: January 19, 2013, 04:36:27 pm
A small point, there are overweight people who are actually born with the propensity to become overweight. It's not as simple as "eat less!", there are some physical illnesses that cause obesity.
It doesn't really change the fact that a majority of people are overweight because of lifestyle choices.
Which is pretty much solely based on what culture you're raised in. But that doesn't make it right nor healthy.

Which also does not change the fact that is THEIR choice if that is the case and nothing they should be abused for. If someone is happy with how much they weigh, that's fine. Leave them be.

Also in some cases it is not really just lifestyle choices, it has to do with what people can buy because of what they earn and in a lot of cases cheap food is not super healthy. Also there have been studies that strongly suggest that the amount of antibiotics pumped into lifestock in the US influences humans intestinal flora in such a way that more of the food will be transformed into fat.

And again, whether it is healthy does not change the fact that it is wrong to demonise people who are overweight.
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Offline Arne

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #68 on: January 19, 2013, 05:13:00 pm
Tbh. I can't really fault Seiseki for not making it through that tower of text. Only someone who's predisposed to already agree with her will, which makes it difficult to objectively discuss the truth content of her various arguments. If she's trying to do PR for her/the cause, the all-caps, accusatory Besserweisser tone is almost sure to alienate those who she feels really needs to read it.

What I feel is really getting lost in this discussion though, is the feelings of the game characters themselves. They're passionately doing what they were created for but now they're being told that doing great ass poses is both shallow and offensive - and that their bodies aren't good enough!

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #69 on: January 19, 2013, 05:13:57 pm
I've never said they should be demonised.
I'm just reacting to the whole idea of being proud of something that's not good for you, no matter if it's against the norm or not.
Denying that it's a problem will only make it worse.

Of course on a personal level you can't go around judging people, but in a discussion I will say that, no it's not healthy and for your own sake you should lose weight.
If a doctor can say that to me, then I think it's a valid medical opinion.