AuthorTopic: Big boobed characters in video games  (Read 96719 times)

Offline Ai

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #50 on: January 19, 2013, 02:15:53 am
Quote from: Ymedron
The best way to do this is by treating your characters as people first, genders second. I remember someone saying that if you can swap the gender of a character without changing their role in a story, it's a good thing. (I suppose excluding specific things that require you to be a certain gender, such as pregnancy, or if you are doing historical fiction?)
I feel this touches on something important that hasn't really come up yet: objectification is supported (in a polarizing sense) by the existence of its opposite, actification* (which as you might expect, applies usually to males): when a character seems to exist only to act. It's hard to get rid of one if you have its opposite (An object needs to be obtained; an actor needs objects to strive to obtain). Sexually attractive but helpless/characterless female love interest + villain who has no personhood and only exists to act is a particularly common combo (often with the protagonist also being such an empty agent; so you get the set ['object', 'bad agent', 'good agent']. Presumably with the implied moral 'good agents triumph, which is represented by getting stuff' :|)

* Described midway down the page. CTRL+F "Actified" is your friend.  (TVTropes link warning)
If you insist on being pessimistic about your own abilities, consider also being pessimistic about the accuracy of that pessimistic judgement.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #51 on: January 19, 2013, 05:23:17 am
I'm glad we eventually came to the point of just designing good characters, period  :crazy:

That idea of the Actified character...that pretty much sounds like the ubiquitous "badass", right? I think a power fantasy can take many forms, there are many symbols of power and the ones we use reflect our culture....so trying to tipify what we go for in men and women...is maybe not a good idea?

honestly I dont feel like power fantasies are very exciting if that's all they are...which is why I'm happy we came to just designing a character that is person first gender second =)

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #52 on: January 19, 2013, 05:38:52 am
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

But isn't it  the same thing with male power fantasy?
Both women and men work hard to uphold the gender roles and old ideals.

And it seems kinda arrogant to dismiss a large portion of people for only being a product of a patriarchal society.
Even if it's the truth, it's.. weird..

How do we know what is real and what is a result of gender roles?
Why do gender roles exist in the first place? Is it due to biological differences, like testosterone levels?

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #53 on: January 19, 2013, 06:35:12 am
I'd theorise a part of it comes from the ancient culture that existed in the stone-age/before that. Males were the hunters, so they had to go out. I presume this got kinda perverted into females are worthless-mindset at some point, and we are slowly improving from that.
There are a lot of females who do honestly enjoy doing girly things and that's fine.

I guess it's best to come back to that point that what a character and a person does should come from what they actually want to do rather than "we need to make sure the viewer understands this character has TITS LOOK AT THEM" and all the other points.
Also their behaviour has to make sense regarding their current situation - if a show has serious fights, then a character should not make stupid/inappropriate poses during those fights.
Also my art tumblr: ymedronart.tumblr.com

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #54 on: January 19, 2013, 06:38:21 am
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

But isn't it  the same thing with male power fantasy?
Both women and men work hard to uphold the gender roles and old ideals.

And it seems kinda arrogant to dismiss a large portion of people for only being a product of a patriarchal society.
Even if it's the truth, it's.. weird..

How do we know what is real and what is a result of gender roles?
Why do gender roles exist in the first place? Is it due to biological differences, like testosterone levels?

Yes, most gender stereotypes come from the actual biological differences in genders as well as evolutionary upbringings and how they effect our behavior. For example, testosterone increases muscle gain and metabolism while estrogen does the opposite. There are also attributions of anger and increased emotionality, respectively. It is common for females to seek out good providers and leaders, enticing males into competitive efforts, while males tend to look for youthful and fertile females to mate with.

Asking " How do we know what is real" Is a very loaded question and hard to answer. Separating ourselves from our more instinctual sides can be dangerous, as we begin to segregate all parts of our mind and search for an " us" that isn't there because we've taken apart all of the pieces.

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #55 on: January 19, 2013, 08:35:06 am
I could spend whole day punching holes in that feminism link.

Sometimes the language we use is very revealing.

Quote
What does obesity has to do with feminism?

It has to do with the standard of beauty enforced by the culture and media. If someone is overweight and happy with it, why should you or I have to tell that person that they're not living their life right? But we do, constantly. Every little bit of media around us enforces behaviours and discourages others, to the ultimate goal of maintaining a status quo and keeping up consumption. You can do your own research from that point and onwards, with the key words "capitalism", "patriarchy" and "standard of beauty".

Quote
The woman obviously has issues with her weight and then claims society has issues with weight because it imposes (is contaminated with) unrealistic standards on looks, specifically on women. I stopped reading there.

If that's where you stopped reading, that's where I stop replying to you. Go back and educate yourself (in that website or elsewhere on the feminist world of blogs) and then we can talk. There's nothing worse on the internet than a discussion of something so important and multi-faceted as gender politics where people just test out their private theories on each other without any research on world's worth of academia already produced on the subject in the last 200 years. It's all available to you, you have the internet. Do you have the inclination, also? Or are you just about 'punching holes'?

Offline Helm

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #56 on: January 19, 2013, 08:39:50 am
You do have it wrong. Those rolemodels are impressed on young women by a patriarchal model.

But isn't it  the same thing with male power fantasy?
Both women and men work hard to uphold the gender roles and old ideals.

Yes! The patriarchy hurts men too! Especially those that fall short of the impossible ideal of masculinity that we're force-fed.

But women have it worse. Much worse. And homosexuals even worse. And transgendered people *even* worse. And the shit just trickles down in an awful pyramid of self-loathing.

And men are in the privileged position to do more against the patriarchal model. And what do we do? We say "men have it bad too!".

Quote
And it seems kinda arrogant to dismiss a large portion of people for only being a product of a patriarchal society.
Even if it's the truth, it's.. weird..

I didn't say their whole being is to be dismissed. I am saying some motivations are very much coloured by the society that has nurtured you. A person that wants to be a super model might otherwise be a very inspiring and charismatic person. That's just the avenues of expression strongly enforced to them. Spend some time trying to think of how your life would have gone were you to have been born female, or gay. Try to spend half and hour, plot your life out, see what would have happened in pivotal points in your life. Would your parents have supported you in the same way in your endeavours? Would you have sympathetic peers?


Quote
How do we know what is real and what is a result of gender roles?
Why do gender roles exist in the first place? Is it due to biological differences, like testosterone levels?

Please educate yourself on these issues, there are many ways to do so online.







If you want " the male gaze" to be eliminated, then there are going to have to be more females designing games, or at least creating the art for them. Of course when a heterosexual male creates something it's going to be through his eyes; arguably the entire point of art creation is to show your individual perspective of a subject. Even if I were to try and make a game through the lens of a female it would become a male's interpretation of how a female sees things.

I am sorry, the 'male gaze' is not based on biological imperative, it's a cultural effect and it can be changed through awareness and positive action to that end. I do not think that this end point you and Arne arrive to where we can do nothing about it until more women make art is a safe one. We can do a lot about it by being aware about what we are drawing and why we are drawing it and be sure to infuse our art with our commentary on what we know. You can still make all the sexy art you like, just as long as its not ignorant on what it's based on, as long as it's not bereft of commentary on the issue. We shouldn't be hiding behind our finger.

And yes, ultimately we should see equal representation of all voices on sexuality and popular media, but that's going to take a long time and we can't pretend not to notice today.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 08:53:56 am by Helm »

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #57 on: January 19, 2013, 11:18:50 am
And men are in the privileged position to do more against the patriarchal model. And what do we do? We say "men have it bad too!".

Yes but at least that is acknowledging the fact.
And I'm not saying that as a diversion, it is because I have personal experience of it.
It doesn't make sense for feminism that is supposed to mean equality between sexes to only acknowledge one side.
While placing all the blame on the other. We're all following the gender roles society has imposed on us.
And it's not like a baby boy comes out of the womb and is all like "oh yeah let's enforce some gender roles!"
Women and men alike teaches children to enforce them and it is only recently that it's become a trend to try and break those norms.

Well I'm lucky that I live in Sweden where people take this seriously.
And I dare to say no other country takes it as serious.

Recently a Toy company release their catalog with images of girls using typical boy toys and boys using girl toys.
Which people in the UK thought was crazy and I can't even begin to imagine what Americans would think.

--------------

About obesity, I think it's sad that we're seeing a trend where some just give up and try accept their obesity as a good thing.
In the same way we see people being proud of being ignorant or uneducated, these are sometimes the same people.
I mean being an anorectic model is also bad for your health and a terrible ideal, but so is being proud of your obesity.
It makes me think the US is going in the completely wrong direction.

I mean here  in Sweden we have health trends, eating right, exercising. Trends for gender equality, like dads staying at home with their kid and not trying to enforce gender roles with colors, language, toys for young children.

In the US you have trends for denying science, having as many guns as possible and denying that it's a danger, denying gay people, denying obesity as a problem, eating even more unhealthy junk food. Trends usually started by religious groups, companies or lobbies for a certain industry.

I am sorry, the 'male gaze' is not based on biological imperative, it's a cultural effect and it can be changed through awareness and positive action to that end.

I believe in a deterministic world and somehow we ended up with this kind of cultural effect.
At first there wasn't culture, only biology and through it culture arose, based on biology.
Of course it can be changed, but that might just be suppressing instincts and desires. Which everyone needs to do on some level to be a civilized person.

edit: By the way, we already have a pixel piledriver thread that covers the male gaze.. (and maybe every other thread too)
Can't we start a thread for the female gaze, with sexualized men? Or would everyone be too uncomfortable with that?
As artists we should be able to draw from both perspectives.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2013, 11:45:44 am by Seiseki »

Offline ErekT

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #58 on: January 19, 2013, 11:48:36 am
Quote
I am saying some motivations are very much coloured by the society that has nurtured you. A person that wants to be a super model might otherwise be a very inspiring and charismatic person. That's just the avenues of expression strongly enforced to them. Spend some time trying to think of how your life would have gone were you to have been born female, or gay. Try to spend half and hour, plot your life out, see what would have happened in pivotal points in your life. Would your parents have supported you in the same way in your endeavours? Would you have sympathetic peers?

I think that's a problem with this whole discussion. We are trying to generalize about gender roles in society, but even within our group of predominantly straight white middle-class males as you put it there's plenty of variation to be had. I'm from a Scandinavian country where, to put it in extreme terms, feminism has become a noble thing and men who prescribe to masculine ideals are viewed as primates. Not saying it's good or bad to turn the tables this way, just that it's probably very different from a lot of other Western countries. But what can you do? You are who you are and you can use that to your advantage to inform your worldview, or you can try to suppress the influence of your background in the name of universal understanding. And I agree you should try to go beyond your own sphere and seek to understand other perspectives. But relativism is dangerous stuff. If you take it too far then everything becomes justifiable from some perspective or another.

Yeah, I'm rambling a bit. :P

Offline Seiseki

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Re: Big boobed characters in video games

Reply #59 on: January 19, 2013, 01:35:08 pm
Also, I want to point out that if someone is saying "oh it's terrible how they sexualize woman in media" and I say  "Yeah, they should sexualize both genders equally" and the other person thinks that's a terrible idea, no one should be sexualized. Then it's not only about sexism.
Unless you're saying that women in general doesn't like sexualized characters and therefore any sexualization is biased towards men. In which case I think it's just about personal taste.