Big boobed characters in video games

[ptoing]

This is not specifically about Fine, but she is mentioned as well and sources are given.

http://www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2012/12/01/science-denialism-at-a-skeptic-conference/

[ptoing]

And even if there's a genetic basis for these things, culturally it doesn't matter because society is not entered on and build upon the foundation of protecting every biological tendency of the human animal.

But culture very likely is influenced to some degree by those biological tendencies. I am sure we can overcome them, but no through dogmatic assertion that they are not there, but through understanding of the science behind them. That's all I am saying.

[Ymedron]

I remember there was a drug that pedophiles are/may/will be given that suppresses their sexual drive so that they can function in society. Couldn't this kind of thing be used for people with a tendency to rape too? Treat violent dominance as the mental issue it is?

I actually didn't realize you were talking about tendency to rape being based on biology, I thought you were talking about the arguments that women are biologically more prone to nurturing children -> women should do it and leave the male things to males. (There was a study in norway that showed that girls do have an interest for 'girly' things when they could choose. Imo that means that while we should support females doing male things, we also need to support females doing traditional things. Aka, people need to be able to do the things they want to do.)
Anyway that was my own inattentiveness, sorry about that. I agree that we need to study humans and human behaviour to really understand what's going on here.

[ptoing]

I don't know if there is evidence for rape being genetically caused, that was just a hypothetical scenario.

When it comes to "girly" things, I would be a bit skeptical. I imagine there can be a case made for women being more drawn to nurture children for example. This can be observed in all primates too.

But I would be skeptical when people say, women are more likely to want to stay at home and tend the house and all that. I am just not willing to make too quick decisions and make up my mind either way without having solid evidence one way or the other.

[Ymedron]

The study was mainly just showing babies toys and seeing what they looked at for longer - female babies had more interest in dolls and such. Though I wonder if there was something else at work there. I agreed with the notion that both biology and culture have an influence on human behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrsF7wyUxs8
I'm not sure whether the "youth's choices are more traditional than 15 years ago" is because of the anti-feminist backlash that has taken place in the media (according to http://www.udel.edu/comm245/readings/GenderedMedia.pdf) or if it's actually people being more free to do what they want.
Though... 15 years ago choosing traditional jobs would have been just as easy as it is now... HM, Im confused..!


edit: I watched the first episode again, and have to say I really am not sure what to believe in..! The brain does distinguish very strongly what gender body they have, but does that mean other parts of the brain are based on this distinction, or is it simply one part? Like the sense of where your body is (that allows you to touch your nose) or something like that.
EDIT 5000: Disregard me, I really don't know how things are supposed to be.
Regarding the rape as a hypothetical situation, I remember finding out that rape is mainly caused by males who think "how dare you deny me, I'll put you in your place!" which would mean they are especially used to being in control (Dominant, a trait caused by testosterone ((just look at hyenas))), or are insecure about themselves (Not necessarily caused by lack of testosterone but might be?)... So yeah.
HRM, all of these claims I make without access to research or checking the internet for data, just from what I remember. Which is of course a bad way to make a claim...

[ptoing]

Just watched those videos, and it's nothing new to me. You have sociologically minded people who say everything is culture and dismiss everything that suggests there is anything at all rooted in biology apart from obvious visual differences. I would say that is intellectually dishonest. It is similar to religious people saying humans are somehow special and fundamentally different from other animals. We ARE animals, we share common ancestors, the rational part of our brain is way younger than the automatic and emotional parts of our brain. We too are guided by survival instincts, and those, I am pretty sure, influence how we behave. And I reckon it is fair to assume that these also vary between the genders to some degree.

None of this means that men and women should not all be able to do whatever they want in terms of jobs and so on, but I find it very disingenuous to dismiss everything biological out of hand.

Gonna read that Gendered Media thing when I have time. I reckon it is about how strongly media compartmentalises the sexes?

[Helm]

I am of both minds on the subject.

I mean, on one hand absolutely bring on the science, as thick as possible. We must know as much as possible.

On the other, if bad science is used as a smokescreen for ideologues that want to keep half of the world's population 'in its place' then besides fixing the science, we also need injections of imagination in the culture not of what 'women are' but of what 'they can be and want to be'. This is what I mean about moving aside from the purely biological. It's not like we are acting in accordance to our basest biology all the time. Sure, these drives inform our every move, but also there is a mediation within cultural narratives and the power of imagination. It is there that the critical battle will be won. The science will ultimately fall either here or there.

[Ymedron]

--Gonna read that Gendered Media thing when I have time. I reckon it is about how strongly media compartmentalises the sexes?

Yes, basically. It also has stuff about how stuff has changed, and has a couple of real examples of damage done by for example men being portrayed as being completetly helpless at home.
I found it by googling "how media influences the treatment of women" (it brings up other interesting pages too) when I tried to find proof for that one jerk that media does have an influence on us.

[ptoing]

I totally agree with you, Helm. We as humans should always strive for the "what could be" in all regards. If you watch that video(s) Ymedron has linked, I reckon you would be hard pressed to see those scientists who argue there is some biological component at work to be trying to keep women down.

And it is just as dangerous to fall prey to a dogmatic idea of equality which has to go so far that all possible differences have to be denied away or your worldview will be shattered. Again, we see differences in all species in nature which reproduce sexually and where there are 2 genders. To assume that the differences there are cultural is of course silly. And to assume that humans are somehow exempt from this is just as silly. We probably have greater rational faculties than any other organism on earth, so we can counter this somewhat. That is pretty much a given. And again, I am all for equality when it comes to jobs and all that, but I am not willing to swallow out of mere ideological conjecture that humans are fundamentally different from all other animals.

Ymedron: Yes of course media and general stereotypes have huge influences on us. The studies which have shown that women who have been told that it is bullshit that women are worse at math (which it is) perform better at math than women who are told that women are generally worse at math than men. These kinda stereotypes are worth being torn down. I would also argue that men suffer from these kinda stereotypes as well, if it is more or less than women I wont argue, I don't know. But the portrayal of superheroes and men in television and media in general builds up a skewed and unrealistic picture of an ideal as well, just as the portrayal of women does.

[Ymedron]

Hm, yes, that is sensible. Especially considering how the two genders do have physiological differences like musclemass and stuff like that. My ideal is that humans and related species are able to consciously control how they behave (I remember a document that showed a baboon trying to avoid a dangerous confrontation by using a baby as a kind of shield to prevent the other male from attacking.) rather than being controlled by emotion all the time.
In short, emotion is what connects us with other animals, logic is what separates us? Maybe that's too extreme. We'd need to know more about animals' thought processes first.

The tumblr-style extreme feminism kind of does make you feel shitty about yourself in the end. For example, I wrote something along the lines of "the story of a person -blahblah-" and "and the story of his friend -blah blah-", and immediately felt shitty for qualifying the friend (female) as just being a friend of the person?? I think it's going too far when you can't even write a casual phrase without feeling bad about not planning your sentences perfectly... Hrm.