AuthorTopic: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014  (Read 115000 times)

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #90 on: May 15, 2013, 09:47:06 pm
To me it looks more like he just took the lineart for the animation and showed pretty much the parts that change. Traditionally animators draw a lot of static pictures, like the upper body might be mostly static while the legs move, and comparing how much each part is redrawn makes for those kind of effects. :o

Especially the second comparison with the trumpets etc, the drawing on the left has some info that doesn't exist in the final work, like brush-drawn lines.
Edit: Hm, looking closer, the brush drawn thing probably comes from the effect that you were talking about. I'm still thinking it's just him overlaying like ten previous frames in the picture to give the animation a "tail". :o!

Edit2: HM, further analyzing... Yeah looks like he did use something, derp herp. Maybe he made it himself. Could ask him on tumblr. <lV Sorry for confusing the matter.
edit3: derp, last edit I think. He doesn't seem to want to be asked software/technical questions... Hrm! can't find any info on it on google either... Maybe if you want to bite the bullet, ask anyway. D:
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 09:59:32 pm by Ymedron »
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Offline jams0988

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #91 on: May 15, 2013, 10:56:33 pm
Quote from: Ymedron
Off topic: Why does it always have to be a girlfriend? Why not... I don't know, his dad or son or gay partner, or why does it have to be a male main character? Wouldn't it be possible to have a heroic female rescue their boyfriend? It's kinda annoying how every single game with a plot like this involves saving the female, making them the reward or object of the game. Aka removing agency. Harumph.

Because 95% of people playing this kind of game will be male. Because 95% of said males would rather rescue a girlfriend than a gay lover or a janitor.
It sucks if that fantasy isn't one that appeals to you, but you have to remember art is usually made to appeal to the artist themselves, or to what the artist considers their audience. The overwhelming audience for this would probably prefer it just the way he has it.

I'd imagine it's because "I want to create something that I'd enjoy!" is what most artists think, not "how can I appeal to the LGBT/minority/handicapped/otherwise fringe consumer?", and there's absolutely *nothing* wrong with that, in my opinion. Things get made a certain way because they're popular. There's nothing malevolent about it. People just make what they want to play, hear, or see. =)

Of course, there might be some monetary incentive for tapping into the smaller, less catered to markets, but a small 2D maze game is probably best with the simple, old-fashioned story...

My two cents, anyway. My game's going to have a female protagonist, just because I think girls are adorable and dudes are gross. But again, I'm doing it for myself, not for the females out there. If I'm going to spend a million hours making something, I think I deserve to make it the way I'd like to see it made...and I'd argue the same for everyone else!:3
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 12:16:23 am by Facet »

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #92 on: May 15, 2013, 11:19:56 pm
95%? But half of gamers are female. 8l And how do you know how many male gamers are gay?
Furthermore, how do you know whether they'd want to rescue their girlfriend, father or mother? I never said "make it some random person", I asked why can't it be something else than just girlfriend. Why can't the reward be something else than sex for the main character? I'd imagine a lot of people can relate to rescuing their beloved family member than a love interest, as everyone has had a parent figure but not everyone has a significant other.

Of course they think "I want to make something fun!" You don't normally think about social issues until someone tells you, because it's always been like this. Humans are naturally really good at sticking to rules and tradition, but rules and tradition can become corrupted or old-fashioned, they can turn out to be damaging and need revisement. Culture provides these revisions to law and traditions, because it permeates everything. Thus, raising awareness is the best thing that can be done in a forum like this, when we aren't making laws but culture.

I don't believe male gamers are so inhuman that they can't relate to a female main character. Females can find it in themselves to relate to a male character, homosexuals can relate to heteros. Why can't the opposite be true?

Claiming people won't be interested in female heroes is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as that makes people less inclined to make heroic female characters and thus there are less good female characters to choose from. Do you see the cycle?

Notice that I'm not perfect myself. All these years I've hated my own gender in games, because they have always been portrayed in a way that I can't relate to. I still don't think to make female characters.
However, having become aware of these issues, it's actually making me -want- to do a female-main char game just to try and see if it can be done well.

I can't even imagine how gaming would look like outside of this situation, but I damn well want to find out.

edit: Also, I think this discussion needs to be branched into its own topic. It's too big and will derail the topic at hand.
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Offline dreamisle

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #93 on: May 16, 2013, 12:25:20 am
Quote
Off topic: Why does it always have to be a girlfriend? Why not... I don't know, his dad or son or gay partner, or why does it have to be a male main character? Wouldn't it be possible to have a heroic female rescue their boyfriend? It's kinda annoying how every single game with a plot like this involves saving the female, making them the reward or object of the game. Aka removing agency. Harumph.
Because 95% of people playing this kind of game will be male. Because 95% of said males would rather rescue a girlfriend than a gay lover or a janitor.
It sucks if that fantasy isn't one that appeals to you, but you have to remember art is usually made to appeal to the artist themselves, or to what the artist considers their audience. The overwhelming audience for this would probably prefer it just the way he has it.

I'd imagine it's because "I want to create something that I'd enjoy!" is what most artists think, not "how can I appeal to the LGBT/minority/handicapped/otherwise fringe consumer?", and there's absolutely *nothing* wrong with that, in my opinion. Things get made a certain way because they're popular. There's nothing malevolent about it. People just make what they want to play, hear, or see. =)

Of course, there might be some monetary incentive for tapping into the smaller, less catered to markets, but a small 2D maze game is probably best with the simple, old-fashioned story...

My two cents, anyway. My game's going to have a female protagonist, just because I think girls are adorable and dudes are gross. But again, I'm doing it for myself, not for the females out there. If I'm going to spend a million hours making something, I think I deserve to make it the way I'd like to see it made...and I'd argue the same for everyone else!:3

95%? But half of gamers are female. 8l And how do you know how many male gamers are gay?
Furthermore, how do you know whether they'd want to rescue their girlfriend, father or mother? I never said "make it some random person", I asked why can't it be something else than just girlfriend. Why can't the reward be something else than sex for the main character? I'd imagine a lot of people can relate to rescuing their beloved family member than a love interest, as everyone has had a parent figure but not everyone has a significant other.

Of course they think "I want to make something fun!" You don't normally think about social issues until someone tells you, because it's always been like this. Humans are naturally really good at sticking to rules and tradition, but rules and tradition can become corrupted or old-fashioned, they can turn out to be damaging and need revisement. Culture provides these revisions to law and traditions, because it permeates everything. Thus, raising awareness is the best thing that can be done in a forum like this, when we aren't making laws but culture.

I don't believe male gamers are so inhuman that they can't relate to a female main character. Females can find it in themselves to relate to a male character, homosexuals can relate to heteros. Why can't the opposite be true?

Claiming people won't be interested in female heroes is a self-fulfilling prophecy, as that makes people less inclined to make heroic female characters and thus there are less good female characters to choose from. Do you see the cycle?

Notice that I'm not perfect myself. All these years I've hated my own gender in games, because they have always been portrayed in a way that I can't relate to. I still don't think to make female characters.
However, having become aware of these issues, it's actually making me -want- to do a female-main char game just to try and see if it can be done well.

I can't even imagine how gaming would look like outside of this situation, but I damn well want to find out.

edit: Also, I think this discussion needs to be branched into its own topic. It's too big and will derail the topic at hand.

Some points to consider about the game whose topic this conversation was spun from:
  • I'm making the game for the company I work for as a tie-in with our website's mascot, so the main character is non-negotiable.
  • None of my opinion on hetero- vs homosexual relationships matters since I'm making it for a work project. My boss is conservative. I consider myself lucky just to be able to get paid to draw pixel art and sling code, and the LGBT battle just isn't worth it in this scenario.
  • I'm gay, and I've always complained about Harvest Moon-type games only portraying hetero relationships.
  • Rescuing a female companion just seemed like a better objective than "collect all the coins in the maze because I said so."

Offline Tourist

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #94 on: May 16, 2013, 02:34:31 am
The animation thing looks like basic edge detection per frame followed by a difference between frames.  Some of the thicker outlines in places may be due to noise, color,  or compression artifacts in the inputs to the process.

Offline big brother

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #95 on: May 16, 2013, 04:01:41 am
Half of gamers might be female, but I don't think that number holds if you factor out casual gamers. A pixel game with retro mechanics might appeal more to male players, since the classic systems and arcades were predominantly played by males. A big part of marketing is segmenting and targeting, not always trying to appeal to the general audience. /2

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #96 on: May 16, 2013, 05:47:38 am
Big brother:
I'm half tempted to just ignore you.
All of my friends - who are female, mind you - play games like Aion, left for dead, skyrim... We aren't some special "progressive gaming" group, we are pretty normal female players. One of the players' mother (that would tell you that she's quite a bit older since we are all in the 20s range) plays Aion as well. I doubt we somehow magically happened to find the most "hardcore" gamers in our little grouping.
I don't see why retro gaming wouldn't appeal to women. We don't have statistics on whether females actually did play a lot of the old consoles, because they might well have been socially pressured to keep quiet about it.

Segmenting your audience with marketing serves no real purpose, other than making your audience predictable and thus easy to market to. You can easily bolster the confidence of the male players at the expense of the female ones, causing them to viciously defend your company as you further treat people not of your targeting group like crap.

This might be helpful to read, as well: http://howtonotsuckatgamedesign.com/?p=5954 part 6. is especially relevant, I feel.

Dreamisle:
It's fine, if you can't help it. However, you -can- spin the tale in multiple ways, and you don't have to use a girlfriend as the reward.
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Offline Carnivac

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #97 on: May 16, 2013, 06:20:22 am
CARNIVAC: glad to hear that you're working on a project of your own, looking forward to it
on the scanlines thing IMO they are best when they arent full black, the light from between each pixel bleeds so they arent that harsh in reality

I've had several projects on the go for years.  Things just get in the way.  Illness, stress, an annoying sense of perfectionism that means I waste time redoing things I already did over and over and over...

I prefer all black scanlines for a couple reasons.  One being that they don't add extra colours that are not already in the palette (transparent scanlines do and to me then they make the image void as pixel art).  Another being my favorite Amstrad CPC emulator doesn't even call the option scanlines (it just has a tickbox for 'Render both pixel lines' when the image is doubled up) so they're full black on that and is what I'm used to playing on.   And to me they just look better.

Besides as I said there are various options in the menus.  The way it is in the screenshot is my choice and how I like to view it.  Seeing as how it's my project and I'm making it for my own enjoyment I didn't really need to add options at all but I did.   Cos I'm nice like that.

I asked why can't it be something else than just girlfriend. Why can't the reward be something else than sex for the main character?

That comment bugs me a bit.  Why would a girlfriend just be about sex?  Certainly not how I view relationships anyway.   If you'd said 'save the random skank' then maybe I'd see the point.

Quote
I'd imagine a lot of people can relate to rescuing their beloved family member than a love interest, as everyone has had a parent figure but not everyone has a significant other.

Heck, I don't have a 'significant other' at present, but I can't say I'd be wanting to save my folks.  Ain't much love there y'see.... 

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 06:30:10 am by Carnivac »
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Offline Helm

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #98 on: May 16, 2013, 07:21:45 am
Quote
Half of gamers might be female, but I don't think that number holds if you factor out casual gamers. A pixel game with retro mechanics might appeal more to male players, since the classic systems and arcades were predominantly played by males. A big part of marketing is segmenting and targeting, not always trying to appeal to the general audience. /2

First of all, why would you factor our casual gaming people of any stripe? Second, I do not see why a pixelly retro game would not appeal to women, it's just an aesthetic mean. Women remember pac-man/mario/pong as well as men do (actually pac-man enjoyed a large contingency of female players) and that's all it takes for something retro pixelly to take advantage of the nostalgia connection.

Offline Ymedron

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Re: Official Off-Topic Thread 2014

Reply #99 on: May 16, 2013, 07:40:27 am
-snip-

That comment bugs me a bit.  Why would a girlfriend just be about sex?  Certainly not how I view relationships anyway.   If you'd said 'save the random skank' then maybe I'd see the point.

(commenting in red because simpler) Because to be frank, I'm pretty jaded about this whole business. To me girlfriend/boyfriend is an extension of the desire to obtain a mate, and thus the romance involved is far more sexual in nature than the love between you, your siblings or your parents. Hence.
Quote
I'd imagine a lot of people can relate to rescuing their beloved family member than a love interest, as everyone has had a parent figure but not everyone has a significant other.

Heck, I don't have a 'significant other' at present, but I can't say I'd be wanting to save my folks.  Ain't much love there y'see.... 
I can't say much about that. If we were making a game where your relatives are assholes, sure, you wouldn't want to save them. But if the game was just about the main character's relatives who are good and loveable people (like most people are, I like to believe) I'm sure they'd be very relatable. However, in extremely simplistic games I suppose you don't have the luxury of characterization. Saving your girlfriend has just become such a disgustingly overused trope that it becomes invisible -> reduces the amount of relatability the subject has.


Edit: Also I'd like to note that my brain is a sieve and I have a hard time expressing exactly what I wanted to say. I still can't quite figure out how to write my thoughts in a way that I don't need to revise/re-explain. :l
 Please don't take my comments for anything but my own. Not representing anyone else here.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:48:10 am by Ymedron »
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