AuthorTopic: Greyshifting  (Read 6742 times)

Offline AlexHW

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Greyshifting

on: September 15, 2012, 09:19:51 pm
Greyshifting occurs when you work to brighten or darken a tone of grey. It's pretty simple, but to easily refer to the process, I spoke of this word in another thread where I was speculating whether or not hueshifting is a viable term to use in an art critique board. What are your thoughts? Is greyshifting a useful term? What are the differences between greyshifting and hueshifting?

Edit:
With hueshifting you have a transition occurring between one hue and another that is layered over a grey. Greyshifting happens when you have the tones of brightness either moving towards dark or light.
The difference seems to be that hues have a bit more variety compared to the greys because with grey you can only go towards black or white while hueshifting involves changes that can go from between any of the recognizable colors in the visual spectrum. Does this give you more reason to use the term hueshifting as it implies more concentration to display the scale between one hue and another without introducing in another color that would effect the transition?
Does greyshifting appear less useful of a term since there is less ambiguity with the process involved?

When one uses the term hueshifting, they are talking about the variability among the hues. One could be more apt to suggest specifics about the color or hues they are referring to and where the tinting should occur. This might remove the need to really mention the word.
It seems as if hueshifting is just a term that represents a practice of using more color, but doesn't necessarily mean that the colors are used well, just that there are changes within the color spectrum that change across a grey.

Greys allow a more contrasted scale since it deals with the tones between black and white. Hues lack this, and rely on the greys to give this depth of tone or added richness to the color. By referring to greyshifting, it puts emphasis on the contrast of the greys in the same way hueshifting does for color except one could easily just talk about where the artist could lighten or darken the image.
Either terms seem to be used in a passive sense that don't really focus on specifics relating to the artwork it seems.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 09:58:38 pm by ptoing »

Offline Helm

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #1 on: September 15, 2012, 09:32:52 pm
My opinion is, and I thought it was yours in the other thread before feelings were hurt, that we need less jargon. More simple language. You can't simplify 'dithering' any further. Nor 'anti-alias'. Nor 'banding'. These are terms users will have to learn. But hue-shifting is a bit ridiculous and shouldn't be considered a necessary term for anyone to learn. Greyshifting is equally rediculous for what it describes. I thought we needed less of this, and you wrote as much. So why the change of heart?

Offline big brother

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #2 on: September 15, 2012, 09:45:43 pm
So it's basically lightening or darkening a shade while desaturating it?

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #3 on: September 15, 2012, 09:46:03 pm
So why the change of heart?
I think both terms are ridiculous, but I want to highlight the issues regarding them so that better critique can be made. I'm tying to focus on the attributes that the terms involve and see if the use of the terms really convey those things.
A beginner artist may find it confusing, and lack the understanding of simpler concepts when they see the words greyshifting or hueshifting, and rather than provide an opportunity for someone to get the wrong impression, wouldn't a more precise look at an artwork while critiquing help everyone from repeating the same suggestions over and over.
If there's going to be widespread use of a term that beginners won't understand, then there should be a thread that is available to them that outlines all the minute details of it so they can get up to speed with the word jargon I guess.

Offline Helm

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #4 on: September 15, 2012, 09:49:16 pm
Nobody will use 'greyshifting'. If someone has a problem with critique they got being unclear, they can always ask the person who critiqued them to clarify. I do not see the need of a different phony term to underline that a past term is unclear.

Offline Kasumi

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #5 on: September 15, 2012, 09:51:39 pm
Hue shifting is as valid as jaggies, or any of the other terms we use. Terms exist because saying "In between the edges of the clothes and skin, use single pixels of a color in between the hair and skin so the transition is less sharp", is just more effort to type than "I think antialiasing around the shirt would help". The effort of the first thing is also wasted on anyone who already knows what it means. Think of why "Hue" exists in the first place. Imagine having to describe it every time. It's not just a change in color, because white to black has no change in hue. Nor does a change from blue to a lighter blue NECESSARILY mean one. Imagine having to explain Hue to someone every time you wanted to talk about it?

Every niche group has dozens of terms that make communicating about them easier. I don't care if "step reset", "ARS", and "DAS" don't mean anything to people that don't play Tetris. They're valid terms inside the community. If someone on a Tetris board asked for for critique on their playstyle and I used DAS in my critique, it would be just as valid as using Hue shifting on a pixel art critique.

I have never heard anyone use "greyshifting" before you, probably because it's easy enough to describe without a niche term. But if people started using it, I wouldn't be adverse to it.
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Offline ptoing

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #6 on: September 15, 2012, 09:58:25 pm
I have never heard anyone use "greyshifting" before you, probably because it's easy enough to describe without a niche term. But if people started using it, I wouldn't be adverse to it.

Both terms are somewhat silly, but imo greyshifting is more so, because it basically is a stupid synonym for shading, whereas there is no good synonym that expresses what we mean with hueshifting.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #7 on: September 15, 2012, 10:42:15 pm
The effort of the first thing is also wasted on anyone who already knows what it means.
Not necessarily. Having a more in-depth critique all-round can set a precedent towards future critique and help build confidence in other individual's ability to critique well as well. Using words that generalize things will just produce more of it, and eventually everyone is using quick methods to make a point that for most- may not understand or perhaps partially understand. It's like a form of leetspeak.

Quote
Think of why "Hue" exists in the first place. Imagine having to describe it every time. It's not just a change in color, because white to black has no change in hue. Nor does a change from blue to a lighter blue NECESSARILY mean one. Imagine having to explain Hue to someone every time you wanted to talk about it?
It should be explained more, why would you want to explain it less? The way you say that "nor does a change from blue to a lighter blue NECESSARILY mean one", implies that you have a bit confusion with hues. A dark blue versus a lighter blue is just a blue. What is changing is the brightness.
Yes the blue hue can change towards more cyan or purple, but these changes are like the changes from one grey to another grey. Light through a prism reveals specific hues that when diffused at a distance become blended and produce intermittent colors similar to greys when white and black are blended.
Everyone could learn more by studying the effects of light.

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Every niche group has dozens of terms that make communicating about them easier. I don't care if "step reset", "ARS", and "DAS" don't mean anything to people that don't play Tetris. They're valid terms inside the community. If someone on a Tetris board asked for for critique on their playstyle and I used DAS in my critique, it would be just as valid as using Hue shifting on a pixel art critique.

I have never heard anyone use "greyshifting" before you, probably because it's easy enough to describe without a niche term. But if people started using it, I wouldn't be adverse to it.
Tetris is much less interpretive a medium than art. You have less control over what you can or can't do in tetris, and in those cases it makes more sense to be inventive for precise rules that people make up. Hue-shifting doesn't represent something that is made up, but it implies a type of look just by using it, and so those who could learn more without the term may be encouraged to follow it blindly.

I have never heard anyone use "greyshifting" before you, probably because it's easy enough to describe without a niche term. But if people started using it, I wouldn't be adverse to it.

Both terms are somewhat silly, but imo greyshifting is more so, because it basically is a stupid synonym for shading, whereas there is no good synonym that expresses what we mean with hueshifting.

Polychromatic fits..
polychromatic (comparative more polychromatic, superlative most polychromatic)

1.    Showing a variety, or a change, of colours; having many colours; multicoloured.
2.    (physics, of electromagnetic radiation) Composed of more than one wavelength.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #8 on: September 15, 2012, 10:55:36 pm
Everything that has hueshifting is polychromatic, but not everything that is polychromatic has hueshifting. So no, it's not an synonym.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline 9_6

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #9 on: September 15, 2012, 11:04:44 pm
So grey-shifting is hue-shifting in which one color at some point is neutral?
That seems a bit overly specific to warrant its own term.
Does scaling an image blur it?
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Offline ptoing

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #10 on: September 15, 2012, 11:08:19 pm
Yeah, I still do not quite get whether it is just shading or if it means that the colour gets greyer, as in desaturated.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #11 on: September 15, 2012, 11:12:16 pm
Everything that has hueshifting is polychromatic, but not everything that is polychromatic has hueshifting. So no, it's not an synonym.
Explain your case?
Polychromatic can be used to describe the changes in color. It doesn't necessarily mean simply multicolored(without an evident transition between them).

So grey-shifting is hue-shifting in which one color at some point is neutral?
That seems a bit overly specific to warrant its own term.
hue isn't regarded during grey-shifting. It's just the changes in brightness.. or the blending of white and black.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #12 on: September 15, 2012, 11:14:20 pm
Yeah, I still do not quite get whether it is just shading or if it means that the colour gets greyer, as in desaturated.
Colour/hue can't become greyer.
If anything, a grey color would be a blended one such as green,orange,violet,etc.. in relation to the color spectrum.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 11:17:00 pm
Alex, I do not feel like discussing semantics (or anything) with you really. Hue is an aspect of colour, just as value or saturation are.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #14 on: September 15, 2012, 11:17:55 pm
Yeah, I still do not quite get whether it is just shading or if it means that the colour gets greyer, as in desaturated.
Colour/hue can't become greyer.
If anything, a grey color would be a blended one such as green,orange,violet,etc.. in relation to the color spectrum.

Alex, colors lose chroma and saturation all the time, to the point that they lose their identity and become pure value, or grey. You are being needlessly cryptic, which is ironic because you are trying to push for clarity in acts of hue shifting.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #15 on: September 15, 2012, 11:24:59 pm
Alex, I do not feel like discussing semantics (or anything) with you really. Hue is an aspect of colour, just as value or saturation are.
You aren't looking at colors in the same way I am, so I'm not surprised you find it difficult to understand. The way you are thinking of color is by identifying the construct of those visual phenomenon that layer together into a blended impure state. So you aren't looking at the Pure color/hue that I am referring to.

Yeah, I still do not quite get whether it is just shading or if it means that the colour gets greyer, as in desaturated.
Colour/hue can't become greyer.
If anything, a grey color would be a blended one such as green,orange,violet,etc.. in relation to the color spectrum.

Alex, colors lose chroma and saturation all the time, to the point that they lose their identity and become pure value, or grey. You are being needlessly cryptic, which is ironic because you are trying to push for clarity in acts of hue shifting.
I'm not sure what your point is?

Offline Kasumi

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #16 on: September 15, 2012, 11:26:38 pm
Quote
It should be explained more, why would you want to explain it less?
Because we don't have an infinite amount of time. Every time we type AA instead of antialiasing, we save time. Every time we type antialiasing instead of its definition we save time. If anyone doesn't understand any of these terms, and for whatever reason can't find the definitions, they can ask, and we'll answer, losing the saved time. But then they'll never have to ask again saving time in the future.

When things takes less time to write, we're more likely to write them. Having to explain every pixel art specific technique in every post would certainly make me less likely to post.

Quote
Tetris is much less interpretive a medium than art
Granted. But I said EVERY niche group, just used Tetris as an example. How about various law terms, psychology terms, anything else terms? They all exist for the reasons I stated.

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Hue-shifting doesn't represent something that is made up
Then why do you question the validity of its use?
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so those who could learn more without the term may be encouraged to follow it blindly.
No more so than almost any other term, in any other thing. Using lots of contrast ain't always a good idea, nor hue shifting, nor avoiding tangents. I'm not sure why you take so much issue with this specific term.
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Offline Willows

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #17 on: September 15, 2012, 11:34:59 pm
The way you are thinking of color is by identifying the construct of those visual phenomenon that layer together into a blended impure state.

Again, you cannot claim to know such an absolute. It posits that you have an absolute knowledge and understanding of ptoing's mind through some sort of prescience or his perfect communication. Neither can be true are consistent with (my) common understanding of the world as sufficient evidence has not been provided to verify their existence. Neither the ability to read minds nor the ability to communicate purely (doubly so through internet forums!) are things that I believe could exist.

So grey-shifting is hue-shifting in which one color at some point is neutral?
That seems a bit overly specific to warrant its own term.

That actually gets me excited. I know Helm did some writing about using grey as a sort of magic tone, as something that plays off the colours around it to seem to take on a hue that it doesn't actually take on. That is an idea I'd like to see explored / explained, but it probably isn't as intricate or complicated as I want it to be :(

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #18 on: September 15, 2012, 11:36:01 pm
Kasumi, I would think that being concise with the way we explain things would enhance the critique and benefit everyone more than simply our own concern for time. I don't see why it is so difficult to agree with this. If a person is that concerned for time regarding writing anti-aliased versus aa, then chances are they may be quick to overlook other things as well in their haste to make a point.


Quote
Hue-shifting doesn't represent something that is made up
Then why do you question the validity of its use?
Because the understanding behind what it represents is masked by the blind use of it. We're better served seeking details regarding what it was intended to explore. We shouldn't use it as an end to a means for our own convenience while at the same time a detriment to others who are meant to learn from how we critique.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #19 on: September 15, 2012, 11:41:16 pm
The way you are thinking of color is by identifying the construct of those visual phenomenon that layer together into a blended impure state.

Again, you cannot claim to know such an absolute. It posits that you have an absolute knowledge and understanding of ptoing's mind through some sort of prescience or his perfect communication. Neither can be true are consistent with (my) common understanding of the world as sufficient evidence has not been provided to verify their existence. Neither the ability to read minds nor the ability to communicate purely (doubly so through internet forums!) are things that I believe could exist.
Look at the facts regarding color and you'll see better ways to explain it that represent it more truthfully. This is what I'm attempting to bring to attention whether my assessments of what ptoing has said is completely accurate, I can only judge what he has conveyed. If it conveys inaccurately to what I know as fact, I'll try to clarify the discrepancies. I don't see what you find wrong with that.

Quote
So grey-shifting is hue-shifting in which one color at some point is neutral?
That seems a bit overly specific to warrant its own term.

That actually gets me excited. I know Helm did some writing about using grey as a sort of magic tone, as something that plays off the colours around it to seem to take on a hue that it doesn't actually take on. That is an idea I'd like to see explored / explained, but it probably isn't as intricate or complicated as I want it to be :(
What you're referring to is chroma. http://dba.med.sc.edu/price/irf/Adobe_tg/models/munsell.html
Seeing complementary colors appear within greys next to a color is due to optics and the eyes.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Greyshifting

Reply #20 on: September 15, 2012, 11:43:36 pm
You aren't looking at colors in the same way I am, so I'm not surprised you find it difficult to understand. The way you are thinking of color is by identifying the construct of those visual phenomenon that layer together into a blended impure state. So you aren't looking at the Pure color/hue that I am referring to.

You can go look at colour outside this forum for a year. This kind of discussion is distracting people who could be otherwise doing useful stuff, instead of discussing things with you when you do not even seem to be able to even acknowledge people most of the time if ever. See you in a year.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.