AuthorTopic: Am I going crazy here?  (Read 37288 times)

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #70 on: September 11, 2012, 10:02:04 pm
Antialiasing is a tough one, obviously you can't have antialiasing very easily if you can change the character's palette.
anti-aliasing has nothing to do with whether a palette can be swapped. You misunderstand what anti-aliasing is, and it is not always beneficial to an image because the intention is to smear/blend tones to appear smoother. Smoothing can remove precision of edge detail.

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(Also, stop trying to make greyshifting happen. It's not going to happen).  :crazy:
Greyshifting is happening!! I can feel it!! :o

'amped up hue splurg'?   Who's asking for that?  I just find the colors very dull and washed out and could benefit from more interesting color ramps.  Not overdoing it.
That's fine, but saying that the hueshifting is a bit excessive or there's not enough doesn't really help you understand anything about color. So the opportunity to use color in other ways that also look great is lost when you can't understand why.

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But it's the fact that some of a sprite is anti-aliased and some isn't.  Look at the big guy's hair for example.  On our left the hair draping down that side of his face lacks the AA the other side has when it could easily have it.  As it is now it looks horribly jagged in comparison.
That is because those edges don't need anti-aliasing. Why smear them into a mess when leaving it crisp allows the surface values to express more about the structure of the forms? You should study form and value more and stop using techniques that serve to mask your ability to discern for yourself how to create something.

You bring up really important issues here, Alex. Not sure why ptoing felt it was trolling. Weird.

Anyway, to a beginner (who seems unable to find time to pixel for the last two weeks, argh!!!), colors are still quite a mystery to me, and precisely these "local" terms like hue-shifting only increase the confusion.

Would appreciate a good tutorial on colors in pixel art exclusively.
Thanks. I understand how the terms can appear mysterious, because I've had to deal with them while learning pixel-art in the past with things like selout(another term that lacks substance for the same reasons).
All these terms do is enforce a practiced way that keeps you making the same looking art over and over, but doesn't necessarily challenge you to grow.
Perhaps I'll look into creating such a tutorial, but there are already many resources online about color that aren't pixel related, yet offer lots of insight that any artist can benefit from(including pixel-artists). I'd advise pixel-artists to look at those- dig deeper and learn more about art in general.. or science or whatever helps broaden your awareness to everything.

Offline Helm

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #71 on: September 11, 2012, 10:17:09 pm
I don't think Alex is trolling here. Perhaps Ptoing is sensing an atmosphere from past threads and dragging it in here, it doesn't need to be here. Alex is making good points. In fact I agree with a lot he says. Hue-shifting is an incomplete decree because it does not rely on understanding a coherent color theory to apply, it's just a 'flashy effect'. Good artists use it well intuitively. We all could use a lot more theoretical knowhow. But it ties well with color conservation and is a very interesting product of indexed palette control, it's good to suggest it to people while giving edits and examples, not just in theory "try some hue-shifting".

I do find the Last Blade sprites boring to look at, color-wise. I would hue-shift, them, yes. But it's personal preference, I understand why others would not.

Anti-aliasing can be ommited with good pixel clusters in most cases, yes. I do not think these Last Blade screens show the best clusters, but they show good structure and design on the whole.

Offline Willows

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #72 on: September 11, 2012, 11:50:10 pm
@semantics argument:

Alex, you come off as someone who is arguing not towards a goal or understanding, but arguing for the sake of itself. Not that that's against the law or anything, but neither is shouting at no-one in particular in the middle of a road. Similarly, though to a lesser extreme, it is odd and probably unfruitful.

Your arguments show obvious bias like an overswing to defend your point such as "amped up hue splurg that lacks consistency" or "since this game doesn't use any crazy "hueshifting"" or other cases in which you propose an exaggerated idea of what you understand as hueshifting to reinforce the idea that you wish to project it as a bad thing. It feels like you simplified the argument down into a FOR OR AGAINST HUESHIFTING and are attempting to bully the opposing argument out of the ring, rather than letting your points stand on their own for what they are (purportedly as truth). I don't hope to fully discredit any of your arguments in this! You're obviously bringing up a lot of good thoughts (Though again I'd debate the fruitfulness of them in the first place, in certain instances) and are definitely contributing to a good discussion... I suppose this is just a personal aside to maybe allow you insight into why some people are turned away by your attitude, provided I'm in a position to provide insight in the first place.

More on-topic, couldn't we all use a stronger theoretical knowhow on a whole lot of common pixel art terms? What suddenly makes "hueshifting" a hot point?

Take "Shading". Fairly ambiguous general term that, while it blankets a phenomenal wealth of information, typically to beginners means "Things should have light and dark spots". It serves as the first step to learning! When I first shaded something (and I'm tempted to speak for most people here) I wasn't thinking particularly hard about the value of the light that was hitting the object nor did I have a fundamental understanding of what I was doing, how light interacted with different surfaces or any of the actual science involved in what I was attempting to replicate. It didn't matter. I was wrong and dumb and completely incompetent, but someone saying "You should shade that better" was a simple use of an almost meaningless term that enabled me to forward my own learning and broaden the simple word's definition. The term used was simply reference to an idea that I would benefit from exploring further. It didn't mean I couldn't do anything until it was understood, but meant that I needed to include it in my progressive understandings.

In that light, I don't understand why there is an argument against a tool (Hueshifting) being bad because the tool is being used without knowledge or improperly. Even if it is used without knowledge or improperly, the crime isn't that in itself, but that the artist fails to recognize his own failure and doesn't take steps to correct his act. Though things don't HAVE to be hard, I would find it hard to stomach a serious argument that hueshifting teaches a bad habit that stunts an artist's growth.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #73 on: September 12, 2012, 02:20:49 am
Nicely said Willows.

Just a few things on anti-aliasing. When you want to colorswap your sprites (and we are talking low colour stuff here) you can not really aa between colours, as in if you have a sprite which has a grey, a blue and a red ramp. In certain colour combos aa between colours would work, but not in all, which is one reason that these kinda fighting game sprites generally do not have a lot of aa. In the case of SF2 where sprites do have aa as well as swapable palettes it kinda works because the colours are all kinda washed out.

Plus, again, everyone is always forgetting this, this stuff was made to run on arcade cabinets which are CRTs, you get scanlines, stuff is still sharp but there is some bleed going on, aa becomes relative.
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline Corinthian Baby

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #74 on: September 12, 2012, 03:39:12 am
I mentioned that earlier because the same was true for most TVs in the heyday of SNES. The pixel beauty of those games could only really be examined after LCDs and emulator rips, which is why not all of the techs translate pristine.

I also agree with Willows.

Offline Tourist

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #75 on: September 12, 2012, 03:46:55 am
Hue shifting as a technique has been in use since at least the Renaissance.



Look at the clothing on this guy right here, particularly the sleeve and leg.  Yellow highlight to red to blue shadows.  This is from the Transfiguration by Raphael, 1520.   



And this guy, with the nice yellow to orange shading on his shirt?  Sistine Chapel.   I'm just saying that hue shifting has been around for a while, and it's not limited to pixel art.


As far as the original topic, should we have a separate thread to discuss visual priority, and composition for large game areas?  I've got a few thoughts skittering around in my skull, but I'm no expert.  It also seems like a more general art topic rather than anything pixel specific.

Tourist

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #76 on: September 12, 2012, 04:10:42 am
nice finds Tourist,
Though, it looks more like reflective lighting. I'm sure the masters weren't thinking- "Let's see.. hue shift the yellow to a blue for some extra ambiance?"
Sure, it could be easy as that, but there was more thought put into it. They had to understand light and how surfaces reflect the rays and cause hues to become absorbed and spread, layered over other colors, etc.
I don't know how relevant the bleeding involved with crt tvs etc is to the way artists create images, if anything I would think that would be a secondary effect that probably felt more of a burden to the artists trying to portray something accurately without distortion. If it helped distract from other technical nuances with the limitation of colors, that probably was just an added bonus that they learnt to cooperate with like any medium. You can say the same thing for watercolor since it can be difficult to handle and bleeds, etc..

Alex, you come off as someone who is arguing not towards a goal or understanding, but arguing for the sake of itself. Not that that's against the law or anything, but neither is shouting at no-one in particular in the middle of a road. Similarly, though to a lesser extreme, it is odd and probably unfruitful.


I'm not sure what you're getting at. But, it could be insightful to try it sometime if you think nothing can come of it that is any good. You might find something you weren't aware of before.

Offline Willows

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #77 on: September 12, 2012, 04:48:01 am
For the sake of clear communication, Alex:! I'm not driving at anything. I'm presenting you with how I view the way you've presented yourself in this thread. It's the same as if you were to personally show me a picture of a teapot and my comment were "It looks cute." I'm not presenting a slant or interjecting my own personal opinion of what the teapot should be; I'm simply telling you my initial reaction to seeing the teapot. If that information is not useful to you or how it is useful to you or whether or not you even deign to acknowledge my input (:P) is none of my business! As a member of the audience, I'm providing you with feedback. There isn't any motive or direction!

Also, I'm familiar with the idea of pushing -something- (or in this case arguing for the sake of arguing) because not pushing anything is unacceptable. However, I've recognized as a truth for myself that in all situations there are goals I could identify and pursue, and until that stops being true, pushing for the sake of pushing feels just as unacceptable as not pushing used to.

On the topic of making new topics : I don't think any subject of discussion that has come up so far actually necessitates its own separate thread. This is just where the discussion has evolved to... BUT if anyone wants to make a helm-esque massive post of knowledge or what feels like it, I would gladly read every bit of it :D

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #78 on: September 12, 2012, 05:06:22 am
Seems clear enough Willows. But just because you can't identify a goal doesn't mean there isn't one there- so what may seem unacceptable to you may not be as such believed to be in relativity to all possibilities. It is interesting your views, honestly.

Offline Carnivac

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #79 on: September 12, 2012, 07:04:11 am
That is because those edges don't need anti-aliasing.  Why smear them into a mess when leaving it crisp allows the surface values to express more about the structure of the forms?

Yes they do.  That area of hair which lacks the AA looks absolutely terrible especially when the other bit of draped hair has good AA.  How does it help the form of the hair in any way leave it totally un-anti-aliased when the rest is and I thought you liked consistency which that example does not have.  It looks crap.

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You should study form and value more and stop using techniques that serve to mask your ability to discern for yourself how to create something.

I'm starting to get quite offended by your tone here. 
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