AuthorTopic: Am I going crazy here?  (Read 37284 times)

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #40 on: September 11, 2012, 01:08:46 am
hueshifting just implies a polychromatic scale of color. If you look at light and how it reflects, then if you are wanting to represent a realistic image, you would just color everything in relation to the light and shadow in relation to surfaces- how light bounces off, becomes absorbed, spreads and mixes the color spectrum, etc.
Hueshifting just masks all of that terminology and causes the understanding of those things to become unclear. Just focus on the realities and you'll become a better artist and a better communicator of it. Making up terms for other terms just dilutes the language and causes misconceptions.
Just trying to reintroduce some clarity.

Offline Ryumaru

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #41 on: September 11, 2012, 01:34:07 am
I specified hue shifting because it is a technique that many pixel artists ( as ptoing said) over use [ im guilty of it myself]- and often do so arbitrarily. There is a certain amount of hue shift that appears in nature due to various light sources, surface reflectivity, atmospheric perspective etc but it is much more modest than what artists sometimes do. With this fact in mind, the exaggeration of how light would realistically fall upon the surface, or ignoring the factors completely and  hue shifting for aesthetic effect can be so far gone from reality, that straight ramps appear more realistic in comparison- and therefore more attractive to the average gamer.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:35:38 am by Ryumaru »

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #42 on: September 11, 2012, 01:42:11 am
Yea.. hueshifting is like pillowshading for colors :P

Offline Corinthian Baby

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #43 on: September 11, 2012, 02:40:13 am
Well, hue shifting is not inherently a bad thing. Like all techniques, it's utility depends on moderation and application. Overusing any tech can be detrimental. Art doesn't always have to be the replication of nature either. Style of course comes into play as well as the goal of the artist. Sometimes making things hyper real (or cartoony on the other end of the spectrum) can be more aesthetically interesting than something that's a deadpan imitation/representation.

Connecting back to the main topic, I think there is an important distinction that hasn't been brought up yet about comparing the games. The golden age of SNES games, beautiful as they are, were experienced on CRT monitors, also at varying resolutions depending on what size tv. ("Like a 20 inch Zenith you gotta see it to believe it") They wouldn't have had the crisp picture that keeps the integrity of the pixels intact. The colors bleed into each other. This is why the bitmap brothers got away with crazy dithering/ramps, they looked totally smooth viewed on what it was intended to be experienced on, CRTs. We take the sharpness of LCDs for granted. It may help account for the disparity.

Also we should remember that in the large schema of art, pixel art is relatively esoteric, not everyone will be able to appreciate its greatness, as is true for any type of art.

Offline ptoing

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #44 on: September 11, 2012, 04:27:38 am
With this fact in mind, the exaggeration of how light would realistically fall upon the surface, or ignoring the factors completely and  hue shifting for aesthetic effect can be so far gone from reality, that straight ramps appear more realistic in comparison- and therefore more attractive to the average gamer.
Yea.. hueshifting is like pillowshading for colors :P

By that analogy abstraction is like pillowshading for rendering. If it was not for that :P I would not even know to whether to take you even a little serious or not.

Hue shifting is simply exaggaration of reality, as Ryumaru already pointed out. Art which just apes reality gets pretty old pretty fast. Knowing the tools to make realistic art is good, but there are many good artists who can not do this convincingly but still are so much better in other areas than some which can do stuff that looks photoreal. It is all relative.

Also to go back to pillowshading. I have yet to see a good usage of pillowshading. I have seen plenty of good usage of hue shifting. Also most of the drawings on your homepage look like some new-age-hippie stuff in terms of coloration, Alex. Glasshouses and such... (don't expect much more discussion from me on this, I discussed with you before, I know how that works.)
There are no ugly colours, only ugly combinations of colours.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #45 on: September 11, 2012, 05:08:12 am
I was just trying to test how expressive the word hueshifting is to convey the nuances with color. Obviously it means to shift hues, but it doesn't really explain color for me. It just feels a bit like a blanket for those who may be trying to learn more about light- but I suppose anything that gets you more involved and practicing will inherently push through to something more.

Offline jams0988

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #46 on: September 11, 2012, 05:11:17 am
Quote
By that analogy abstraction is like pillowshading for rendering. If it was not for that :P I would not even know to whether to take you even a little serious or not.
I'm pretty sure what he meant by that was "when artists don't know how to shade correctly, they pillow shade. When artists don't know how to choose their colors correctly, they simply hue shift [even when hue shifting isn't appropriate.]"
I understood the analogy, and it made me laugh. It's true, I think!
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Hue shifting is simply exaggaration of reality, as Ryumaru already pointed out. Art which just apes reality gets pretty old pretty fast. Knowing the tools to make realistic art is good, but there are many good artists who can not do this convincingly but still are so much better in other areas than some which can do stuff that looks photoreal. It is all relative.
I think most people would agree with this, Alex included! =)

Alex is simply saying "hue shifting" is the knee-jerk reaction bad artists have to "oh my god, what color would be best here?" I think he's trying to say we shouldn't even have the term hue-shifting, because it teaches new artists that simply sliding the hue over to the left or the right will produce good color selections for us, when that's obviously not true. He's saying to learn how colors actually work, instead of relying on cheap tricks. I agree that hue-shifting IS used as a cheap trick a lot of the time, with bad results. I see the advice posted here constantly, by artists who don't know any better. "Hey, your drawing looks dull. You should make all the shadows purple! That's called hue-shifting! If the object's brighter, make it more yellow, instead!" Half the time, that advice makes absolutely no sense, hence (from what I gather), Alex's aversion to using the term at all. (Sorry for putting words into your mouth, Alex!)

About Alex's "Hippie color choices," I think his art makes it obvious he's followed his own advice; he's very familiar with how colors work, and because of that, I think he does a fantastic job of bending (and even breaking!) the rules. =)
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I'm just some dude.
Don't worry about such things.
Just keep a clear mind, be humble, pace yourself, try new things, learn, make a plan, draw stuff and have fun.
Oh, don't worry, I know.
If I didn't plan on surpassing your current (very high!) level one day, I'd quit drawing now, heheheh. ;P
I used you as an example, because you're a good artist with a very idiosyncratic artstyle. =)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 05:25:43 am by jams0988 »

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #47 on: September 11, 2012, 05:28:57 am
(Sorry for putting words into your mouth, Alex!)
Pretty much spot on with my thoughts, I agree with your assessment. :y:

Offline API-Beast

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #48 on: September 11, 2012, 05:56:02 am
I think these technical terms are quite fitting because in PA its more about knowing how certain colors are perceived because most created pixel works, defined by the medium, are rather unrealistic and more symbolic so it's less about finding "natural" looking colors but more about finding colors which give the right contrast or feel.

Offline PypeBros

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Re: Am I going crazy here?

Reply #49 on: September 11, 2012, 06:03:30 am
I remember my first exposure to Seiken Deikutsu 3 art in pixel art tutorial and I thought to myself "how could those people actually value graphics where there is non-sense-ish purple on trunks and leaves ??". It almost blinded me to the remaining quality of the piece. of course, my feel towards this piece has changed over the years.

That being said, as soon as you're asking the question on a place where people that liked game X gathered, your poll output will be biaised. I mean, there were people around who prefer(ed) Virtua Fighter over Street Fighter II, blocky characters nonwithstanding... and I couldn't count the number of modern (post-2000) cartoons that I consider über-ugly but that kids worship (sponge bob, bratz, little poney redux, only to name a few).

I've just went to the devlog of the game, and imho, the screenshot you pick doesn't do justice to the overall game level. Especially, the screenshot doesn't render animations which seem to be pretty smooth and it has a layer of smoothing that kills whatever was properly done. Granted, there are plenty of things that could be improved on those "green fields" (rocks definitely need a face-lift), but on some point, the game's art is indeed superior to Z:LttP, where everything was over-symmetric and had to work with very few colours. Zelda's trees, if anything, were quite weird at first glance.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 06:32:54 am by PypeBros »