AuthorTopic: GR#104 - Rock Monster - RPG Projection  (Read 11777 times)

Offline A2J2TIWARI

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GR#104 - Rock Monster - RPG Projection

on: June 17, 2012, 05:47:43 am
Hello everyone!

This is a rock monster I made:


It's supposed to look like this:
http://www.husvankempen.de/nunn/archiv/fantasy/logos/ErdelementLev3.jpg

Tell me what you think.

C and C welcome!

Thanking everyone in advance.

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Offline Seiseki

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #1 on: June 17, 2012, 06:59:07 am
It doesn't read very well. You need to use other methods of shading to get the depth needed to tell each body part apart.

I doodled a bit on it and changed the highlights to larger chunks instead. Also added some darker chunks and tried to sculpt some kind of face.



Obviously lots of readability issues remain, I was sorta just doodling randomly so I somehow put the face in between his shoulders..
And now that I look at your original version, I can actually start to see the shape you intended. (edit: nope)
To get the sense of more power I enlarged the hands and arms, but I think this needs to be even more extreme, and the arms should bend inwards more.
And since I didn't find any legs I just made him pop out of the ground by adding a few rocks around the base.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 02:38:12 pm by Seiseki »

Offline A2J2TIWARI

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 08:14:33 am
I am so sorry that I forgot to mention the perspective. I tried to use 3/4 perspective and this is how I tried to make it:



Thanks for the reply Seiseki. I see how you've gien the depth to that rock creature of yours.
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Offline Grimsane

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #3 on: June 17, 2012, 02:36:58 pm
what  Seiseki said, and drawing a diagrammatic pointing out what is what isn't going to help if it was for example in a game, rework and simplify you're forms, you are trying to tackle something I'm inclined to suspect might be a tad out of your range, colours aren't too bad, and some of it does reads like rocks, I read it along the same lines as Seiseki did torso, head and arms.

suggestions on increasing readability, try using a separate colour to define some glowing eyes, give him a protruding chin and strong mouth line/underbite

Offline Cage

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #4 on: June 17, 2012, 02:54:46 pm
I think the main problem here is, that the rocky elements that make up the monster are of simillar overall lightness - we can't the see the planes, the form that makes up the monster, it's looks like a more or less flat group of stones.

The perspective doesnt make things easier too - maybe try to make a few more drawings that would depict him in a straight front, side, top view etc. and then try a more "3d" viewpoint ;)

Offline A2J2TIWARI

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #5 on: June 17, 2012, 04:55:53 pm
Thanks a lot for your comments!

I tried to implement what you all said.



I didn't shade it completely because I wanted to show what I did and then if it came out okay, I'll complete the shading process.

Thanking everyone who commented!
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Offline Grimsane

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #6 on: June 17, 2012, 05:10:16 pm
definitely reading more along what you initially intended, angle/perspective is a bit strange, kinda like someone doing push-ups,
or if you look at it as if it was front on it looks like a muscular baby doing handstands, just saying  :lala:

Offline chipbit

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #7 on: June 17, 2012, 07:54:59 pm
Hope you don't mind if I have a play (also my first edit of all time - on someone else's work.)  ;)

The clean version you put up looked a little too clean. I took a look at the art work you posted and it's has a lot of bulk behind it. More like a Rock Gorilla.

So here is a quickie trying to re-create that feel.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 07:57:31 pm by chipbit »
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Offline Cyangmou

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 07:24:30 pm
First get your basics right, a construction could help, the sideview is easier to draw.
Then block in your colors
And maybe add some details.
It's just roughly blocked out, but I hope you got the idea how it is working. I already showed you how to make it with the tree, it's completely the same here.



« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 07:28:46 pm by Cyangmou »
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Offline A2J2TIWARI

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 03:47:38 pm
Cyangmou, thanks for that tutorial. I used it this time! Last time I couldn't understand it but this time I paid attention to it and found it as extremely helpful technique!

Here is what I made looking at that tutorial and your edits:


If you think that the perspective is right now, I'll make this piece 64*64 and clean the lines.

Also the problem I find atm is about shading rock textures.

Thanks you all!
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Offline Grimsane

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 04:48:08 pm
to add further to Cyangmou's great example, if you should wish to push it one step further, and reinforce the depth with both colour and foreshortening, like most things in art you can enhance certain aspects by exaggerating them, use the above method as a base to get the form in the aspect, then add some exaggeration and colour cues to push the depth and 3-Dimensionality of the object.

another thing to think about is symmetry, it can be used to make things faster, and it also has some benefits in making things look cheap and less organic, but there are benefits to be had from it, and if you fuse the two methods sometimes the end result can be better than rendering both sides on your own, for example working it until it looks just right proportionately with symmetry, and then adding asymmetry afterwards, things that don't work with pure symmetry are side lighting and every type of secondary lighting besides back lighting (or it becomes at least triple lighting(an identical light source from both angles, which in all honestly does not look very natural at all))

Edit to illustrate some things:

-you'll notice a side effect of the projection is that the scale changes
-blue and cyan on the base is to indicate a possible approach to emphasising the highest points to reinforce depth.
-heads (poorly) illustrated the effect of tilt, which makes you consider another factor 'what angle are certain features at?'
-A is an edit using some methods to reinforce the depth a bit. B,C,D are all variations on symmetry which some of which have a more cohesive aesthetic, and could be used to base an asymmetric version off. of which factors worth paying the most attention to are: off centre lighting and possible secondary side light source, of course in the context of a game secondary lightsources increase the workload, to do convincingly you can't just simply mirror the horizontal stands and walk cycles, unless you cheat and omit any secondary light source from the side views, which will reduce the consistency of the sprites themselves.but just remember there are various ways to convey depth not just implied foreshortening with colour.


yes to some degree it very much dependant on the style of your graphics and the level of depth you wish to incorporate.

I will however add that most games that use rather flat projection (which is a necessary in tile based games, there is no escaping 2D, only hiding it and doing your best to imply a 3 dimension), try to avoid the orthographic flatness in the games sprites and objects even more so by adding more depth than simply getting the overhead angle exactly right. and it may represent what you want, but it won't convey it's height from the terrain as much as it could, often it is much more effective to break this in various parts
depth of course can and should be added to everything even grass is taller than the ground plane and good games even add depth to that, unless you are doing flat ground intentionally.
rather rushed and not entirely conclusive example:


on the right are some quick examples of how even with the right shape you can make things look flat without taking the right approach (the noticeably flatter attempts are marked in yellow)
value, colour, even shadows can be employed to make the depth more noticeable.

well probably laden with mistakes I'm having trouble managing my time and am rather busy, so feel free to chime in if you believe anything is incredibly wrong or not elaborated/articulated correctly, as the subject is reasonably advanced and there is no real perfect formula or method. but awareness is one step in the right direction




Offline A2J2TIWARI

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #11 on: June 26, 2012, 04:16:51 am
to add further to Cyangmou's great example, if you should wish to push it one step further, and reinforce the depth with both colour and foreshortening, like most things in art you can enhance certain aspects by exaggerating them, use the above method as a base to get the form in the aspect, then add some exaggeration and colour cues to push the depth and 3-Dimensionality of the object.

another thing to think about is symmetry, it can be used to make things faster, and it also has some benefits in making things look cheap and less organic, but there are benefits to be had from it, and if you fuse the two methods sometimes the end result can be better than rendering both sides on your own, for example working it until it looks just right proportionately with symmetry, and then adding asymmetry afterwards, things that don't work with pure symmetry are side lighting and every type of secondary lighting besides back lighting (or it becomes at least triple lighting(an identical light source from both angles, which in all honestly does not look very natural at all))

Edit to illustrate some things:

-you'll notice a side effect of the projection is that the scale changes
-blue and cyan on the base is to indicate a possible approach to emphasising the highest points to reinforce depth.
-heads (poorly) illustrated the effect of tilt, which makes you consider another factor 'what angle are certain features at?'
-A is an edit using some methods to reinforce the depth a bit. B,C,D are all variations on symmetry which some of which have a more cohesive aesthetic, and could be used to base an asymmetric version off. of which factors worth paying the most attention to are: off centre lighting and possible secondary side light source, of course in the context of a game secondary lightsources increase the workload, to do convincingly you can't just simply mirror the horizontal stands and walk cycles, unless you cheat and omit any secondary light source from the side views, which will reduce the consistency of the sprites themselves.but just remember there are various ways to convey depth not just implied foreshortening with colour.


yes to some degree it very much dependant on the style of your graphics and the level of depth you wish to incorporate.

I will however add that most games that use rather flat projection (which is a necessary in tile based games, there is no escaping 2D, only hiding it and doing your best to imply a 3 dimension), try to avoid the orthographic flatness in the games sprites and objects even more so by adding more depth than simply getting the overhead angle exactly right. and it may represent what you want, but it won't convey it's height from the terrain as much as it could, often it is much more effective to break this in various parts
depth of course can and should be added to everything even grass is taller than the ground plane and good games even add depth to that, unless you are doing flat ground intentionally.
rather rushed and not entirely conclusive example:


on the right are some quick examples of how even with the right shape you can make things look flat without taking the right approach (the noticeably flatter attempts are marked in yellow)
value, colour, even shadows can be employed to make the depth more noticeable.

well probably laden with mistakes I'm having trouble managing my time and am rather busy, so feel free to chime in if you believe anything is incredibly wrong or not elaborated/articulated correctly, as the subject is reasonably advanced and there is no real perfect formula or method. but awareness is one step in the right direction

Thanks a lot for this awesome reply! This helped me a lot! First I did some cool textures on one side and then copy-pasted it; tried to combine methods of symmetry and asymmetry. Then saw your edits and then tried to add depth fix some problems that I saw.

Here is the piece:

EDIT:

Sorry for the delay.

Thanks a lot for help!

C and C welcome.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 06:23:20 am by A2J2TIWARI »
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Offline AlexHW

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #12 on: June 26, 2012, 05:58:22 am
is that the right url link?

Offline A2J2TIWARI

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #13 on: June 26, 2012, 06:00:58 am
is that the right url link?

Extremely sorry for that mistake. Thanks for notifying :)

Fixed it now!
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Offline AlexHW

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #14 on: June 26, 2012, 06:13:34 am
cool.. looks pretty good so far. Seems like the details could be cleaned up a bit- at the moment some parts appear confusing or as if they are melting into other parts of the creature. Because of this, I have a hard time understanding how some surfaces are angled or bent. This look might work for other types of surfaces, but for rocks It needs more refinement. Maybe I'll record a video where I edit some parts giving you examples if you're fine with that.

Offline A2J2TIWARI

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #15 on: June 26, 2012, 06:27:05 am
I see what you mean, I'd try to clean this piece. And, I wouldn't mind if you edit this piece.
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Offline AlexHW

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #16 on: June 26, 2012, 08:52:13 am
aight.. cool. here's my critique/edit/etc: http://youtu.be/IwmlaXdP1mA

Offline rikfuzz

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #17 on: June 26, 2012, 11:07:51 am
aight.. cool. here's my critique/edit/etc: http://youtu.be/IwmlaXdP1mA

If you want to post videos that's fine, but by itself it's incredibly unhelpful.  If you want to be more helpful, please post the before and after, with a brief summary of changes and succinct details on the motivation behind your changes.

Offline Helm

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 11:56:29 am
Yes, if possible when you link to off-site videos, at least post before - after and a few words as to why you changed what you did.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 03:59:18 pm
A2J2TIWARI commented on the video saying he understood what I was saying, so until I see what he comes up with next, I can't really offer more for him.

Offline rikfuzz

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #20 on: June 26, 2012, 04:11:11 pm
I have a well crafted rebuttal, but instead of typing it, you're gonna have to watch this 30 minute video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqgSO8_cRio#t=5

Only kidding, I'll type it out: it's unnecessarily difficult to examine your edits in a video and not really very good for open discussion.  Could be nice for some extra detail, but in isolation it's a bad format for crits on a forum.

Offline AlexHW

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Re: Rock Monster

Reply #21 on: June 26, 2012, 04:35:16 pm
why don't you just critique his piece then, and stop going off-topic.  :y:
not trying to be rude or anything, just saying..