AuthorTopic: tutorial sprites  (Read 13733 times)

Offline Cyangmou

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tutorial sprites

on: June 14, 2012, 12:41:41 am


just the sprites for the perspective tutorial. maybe anyone has something awesome to add. I played a bit around with the colors already. (the perspective should be right  ;D) Maybe they need some more polishing.
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Offline yaomon17

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 01:18:40 am
Is that image hosting site not available in Taiwan because i haven't been able to see any of the images  :'(

Offline Jeremy

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 04:05:28 am
Unless I've misunderstood the tutorial, I think it would be clearer to not have the warping/fisheye type effect. Also the rings on a barrel aren't segmented :P

Offline Seiseki

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 04:10:28 am
Are rings on barrels really segmented?
According to google.. nope..

They do become much clearer without the warping though.
Also they're a bit on the dark side.
Otherwise the only issue I had was that the crate didn't really look like a crate, because the perspective seemed kinda unclear.
But with Jeremys edit, it looks much better.

I really love the style btw, awesome work and awesome tutorials!!
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 04:12:39 am by Seiseki »

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 03:41:19 pm
yeah but they also become much more boring in my eyes. but it's worth to make a compromise - definitely. the barrel rings weren't meant to be segmented too. It seems that the shading don't worked how I have imagined it. I also removed this. THanks Jeremy

Once I am ready for happy and bright pieces I'll let you know it Seiseki. The contrast is very harsh with pixelation's bright background, this destroys the colors. Because of this I am posting it with a darker background.
I improved the colors further and made a new sprite - a column which is made out of blocks and cylinders.

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Offline Seiseki

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 03:55:17 pm
Haha, on that background, it's like night and day..
Didn't even notice how heavily tinted the highlights and shadows were.

The column looks great, very detailed. Perhaps a bit too much dithering though.

Offline Grimsane

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 07:23:07 pm

for some reason to me the column seems more top down than the rest, mostly the base I think, that or it could just be the scale compared to your other objects, and I'm really fond of the style, and after staring for along while I'm not really perceiving the same depth with the chest, it reads more front on to me, maybe due to the lack of overlap on the lid, or the consistent highlights not entirely sure, although I suspect in a mockup or in game especially if animated to open, it'd look perfectly fine. or maybe I'm just too tired right now to tell  :lol:

experimented a bit to see if I was crazy or not,
Ed: <reinforced perspective
also I think the assets especially the column would fit in more in a game context if you made them with a strict relation to a grid, and it's more what I am used to seeing in top down RPGs, you guys were talking about axonometric Vs Oblique, to be honest I've always and most games I've studied have strictly used the grid itself to decide the ratios/perspective angle and it establishes what the viewing angle is. this edit of the column just aligns the perspective to a 32x grid

and that alone definitely brings its viewing angle down. 2D spaces have an extremely limited range of what can be pulled off in game and look cohesive in relation to character and environment, you can push various variations but if you are sticking solely to a grid like almost every 2D game does, then you'll find yourself matching your props and objects to that ratio the tiles establish, hope you follow what I mean because what you're doing deviates from that to some extent, and I was under the impression you were definitely pushing your perspective in a game art context.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 07:35:14 pm by Grimsane »

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 10:16:10 pm
First of all I made myself some 3/4 planes with the correct measurements. after this I compared them with the sprites. As it seems I had some minor +-1px deviations which caused heavily problems. Especially because the placement of the sprites next to each other was the worst possibility (which was good to point out the mistake).
I also removed a bit of the dithering at the column.



I really like what you did with the chest. seems to be pretty effective. I also changed the top part a bit more and re-aliased the other parts.



Really big thanks Grimsane.

Although the sprites are meant for games I don't really like it when tiles end where a grid line is. They are usable for a game the way they are and I can't underline the sentence "sticking solely to a grid like almost every 2D game does" - lots of the graphicians who did games don't even thought about the relation of their perspective, they just made it fine to look at, which is nothing bad - but there are also lots of worse examples with clashing perspectives and that are for me most games, because if I am thinking of good "pixel RPGs" I can number out about 20, but there are tons of pixel rpgs and the most of the ones I saw weren't made very well. The grid is a necessarity for game tiles (or a limitation you have), the aestethics are something you can handle pretty free within your limitations and I am doing this with not following strictly the grid.
This doesn't mean that I am not pushing these sprites/tiles in a game art context.
Atm I am thinking that it's pretty useless to use pixel technique for pieces which aren't meant for games or aren't animations.
But this stuff is all about the point of viewing and not really artistically important.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 10:20:28 pm by Cyangmou »
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Offline Facet

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 12:09:15 am
Yeah, apropos the tiling factor: the exact scaling is the whole point of these and since none of them actually need to mesh it's not a concern ;D

They're all really nice looking and demonstrate a good range of simple forms and ubiquitous props but the column is lit differently from the others with that strong lefthand bias and the high contrast of it's (the column's) highlights appear metallic; I'd be tempted to remove them completely.

Offline Zizka

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 12:41:07 am
Where could I access this tutorial please?

Offline yaomon17

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #10 on: June 15, 2012, 03:33:38 am
Where could I access this tutorial please?
Here

Offline Grimsane

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #11 on: June 15, 2012, 05:06:00 am
Quote from: Cyangmou
Really big thanks Grimsane.
you're most welcome, glad to be helpful. and if people are using this as reference to learn it's best to avoid flaws when possible, even when minor in isolation :)
Quote from: Cyangmou
~regarding grid

well game artists using their skills to hide obscure and remove the players perception of the grid is definitely what makes a good game aesthetic, but what i was saying is you still need to make everything in relation to the scale and perpective reinforced by the grid, it is unavoidable, and if you fight it in the long run you'll just end up with flaws whether minor or major.

also I know these (marvelous) examples are more geared toward the perspective itself and not the scale, but I think it would be helpful to the casual viewer and anyone trying to learn to reinforce the effect of scale on depth, I could go into it in depth but essentially you just have to remember that consistency of scale is a major factor to strive for in any single project. and will make or break the illusion of depth.
here is a quick test to see what works scale wise with your examples:
Ed:incorporated your new revisions into my example

also one thing I should point out large structures can be prone to breaking the illusion of depth if not handled correctly, most games handle this by making sure large objects disappear off the top of the game screen, which has a side benefit in that the artist saves time rendering it too, large columns in particular, some games have them going off screan others use intersections to preserve the ceilings cut off point (having ceiling cut off points is another factor to reinforce believable depth, especially if not exclusively in an interior setting) but of course all of the above is subject to scale, if you zoom the same scene out far enough all depth issues almost disappear regarding tall objects. just something to consider

hope these tutorials keep up momentum, and community input only improves them  ;D


Edit: also experimented with the chest in relation to a grid and and couldn't help but mess with it more. I think removing those rivet/circular stud detail adds slightly to their readability, even though I realize they are charming and a choice of style (they actually kinda look like a feature of a smiley face intentional?  :lol:) but none of this is essential just experimenting more, and in a game you usually want to make better use of tile space (well I've had it subconsciously drilled in atleast :blind:) ,

Also I love how you push asymmetry quite liberally :y:


Edit II:
Quote from: Facet
I'd be tempted to remove them completely.
I would encourage just separating it, and doing two separate sets from different scales, and having each particular set adhering to their own lighting scenarios, only context I'd remove is if it was to fit the same set, and I don't believe that was the point, also I think pixelling an olde Lamp post in the same scale etc would fit the left batch as a supplement. It has a Steampunk/Victorian Era feel to me for some reason.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 05:49:58 am by Grimsane »

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #12 on: June 15, 2012, 11:23:23 am
It's pretty hard to create good tutorial stuff and there are also too much tutorials with bad materials out there. It’s not only embarassing for yourself if in your tutorial is something which isn’t alright it’s bad for all the people who are reading it and mind it in the way you showed it. It’s hard to get rid of habits you learned in a wrong way and I am still stumbling over personal mistakes in all of my works over and over.

I think it’s pretty hard to make a good tutorial which isn’t a simple „How I’d do it step by step“ and it’s even harder to create stuff for a tutorial which should really teach you something.

There is barely no place for your own lazyness and there is also no place for cheating. The last things I tried to learn were perspective, shading, materials, anatomy, facial anatomy and animating (in this order). It’s nice to learn all that stuf fand I learned fast tons of new things but I stumbled not only over the minor mistakes from one part, I stumbled over the minor mistakes from every part which makes in sum really bad art.



Off-Topic: For example this drawing here, I made it about two weeks ago and I am not rudimentary satisfied with it, it’s very easy to spot out the places where I cheated. I made it without references, just to check up how good I am at the things I was trying to get the hang of and I found out that the conception of many things is wrong within my brain. At the first sight it may look pretty okay, but it’s far away from what I should be capable to do.
drawing


Back to topic: There was no way except going back to the most basic thing (which is perspective for me) and creating a tutorial confrontates you ruthless and truthfully with all the minor things you are doing wrong. If Seiseki wouldn’t have asked for something like that I’d have delayed it once more.

I am pretty bad at admitting the mistakes I made to others, although I know mostly that I can’t dismiss the issues. And I am pretty bad too in explaining that all the mistakes are part of my own unique and awesome style and make others to think that too.



To the scale: yeah both of you are right, the first three parts were planned for 32x32 tile resolution and I revamped some stuff from my very  personal project which I’ll most probably never finish.
The column is a new sprite, the style is heavily influenced by the style of the game I am currently working on (16x16 res, strong chiaroscuro). The only thing ist that I used the colors as I’d do but don’t made it to use in game in first case. As I already pointed out I chose it because of the forms, seems that this was a silly idea...

It’s also interesting how good you estimated the scale of the charakters. I also added my shilouetts (don’t want to talk about the chars atm, the big one needs also some revamping…)
As I pointed out I don’t referenced the column tot he small sprite in first case, but it has very greek measurements and proportions.

The next thing which is completely right ist that the style of the 32x32 stuff is victorian/steampunkish. It’s hard form e to imagine how you got the idea of it with just 3 very common and very expectable objects. You must have a grimsanely good eye :D



Tothe chest features: the smiley face were part oft he concept. Also the paw-foots. I am sure you know Mimics. I think it’s a good thing to let the imagination play wild. Because of this I let the eyes also bright, to lead your mind to „something strange is going on with this“.



About the lamp: I also had something like this in stock. The only bad thing about it ist hat it uses a sphere and vertical cilyinders and pyramid forms instead of vertical cylinders, frontal cylinders and boxes. I think it doesn’t really fit to the content oft he tutorial because it’d be really complex fort he fourth example. Because we have to add sphere and pyramid rules to it too. But however I added it.
After doing it myself I don’t even know how somebody who isn’t even able to get the knack oft he right perspective (because I highly doubt anybody pro will need the tutorial) and want to learn it can do something as complex as the lamp. Take a look at the lighting, that mystical glow effect is nothing for someone who doesn’t even know how basic hue-shifting works. Also the gear isn’t really easy to construct and the overlapping parts are also something which is a bit harder to imagine. Maybe adding this just as imaginative example at the end of the basic constructions just to show how far it could go.  What do you think fellows?

The lamp is not completely polished. I am aware yet that the highlight at the sphere can’t be there, but I don’t found a better looking solution. Critique is – like always - welcome.
I thought about another object which combines the same forms as the column (don’t had an idea yesterday) and I came up with a a park-bench, this would also fit the scenario very well.
Then it’d be possible to remove the pillar like facet  pointed out. And we keep the 32x32 stuff for the tutorial.



Although I’d also like to create a overview over the charakters of high and low pixel res, but this will come some point later. At first I want to finish the general objects, because there you don’t even need the very basics of charakter design and anatomy which we have to touch softly later definitely.
I think we also have to come back to the grid point later, it makes (for me) no sense to discuss this without a context, like a tiled ground and other objects. At the moment the construction and perspective counts. As your edits showed it’s pretty easy to edit, maybe we find out something really  interesting together, who knows? It’s definitely worth of taking it into account.
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Offline Grimsane

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #13 on: June 15, 2012, 05:19:20 pm
whoa that's uncanny :D grimsanely good eye heehee :hehe: also I do believe you have effectively conveyed that with the tone and style of the objects themselves, because that's what was implanted in my mind by looking at them, and did some more editing earlier but had to leave and finally got time to follow up, mostly considering how to bring it back to a more basic style neutral form. (that and I really adore the style and  pushed and pulled it to see how far you can tone it down while retaining the feel.)


and we are definitely on on the same page :crazy: I agree whole heartedly with your statements, especially regarding the lack of good tutorials.


Off-topic:and that is quite impressive, and almost every artist have to overcome the same issues, and the flaws are not glaringly bad at all, it's something that with time and repeated self analysis and motivation to improve will not be an issue at all, and it is definitely easier to critique and improve someone else's work, mainly because you didn't spent the time conceiving and using a large portion of your brain space creating it from nothing but imagination. I'm mostly referring to reference-less art, critiquing to help other's isn't always a selfless act, because most often than not we end up garnering knowledge that may well help our own art grow, when we are truly creative and creating art purely from our imaginations we have to know forms shapes logical solutions to rendering all manor of things on a sub conscious instinctual level. some artists combat it by breaking up their creative process with breaks, so when they come back they can analyze what they have done and fix the issues before continuing, when we go from start to finish in one session we are more prone to overlook our mistakes, and after all the detail is rendered we are left with many minor mistakes that on their own wouldn't weaken the piece much, but all together definitely have an impact on how well articulated the piece is 


what I suggest we could do, is have a beginner and an intermediate level tutorial, both feeding into each other, if we keep the examples relatively newbie friendly and even take more care in explaining principles in an understandable and easy to follow manor, it will be far less intimidating and be easier to get your feet wet so to speak, then showing what can be achieved will certainly inspire and possibly motivate, and personally I strongly suggest leaving all technical language and discussion tutoring on all the nitty gritty technical aspects ratios angular degrees and what have you for the intermediate tut, if you truly want an effective newbie-beginner level tutorial that can be an immensely off putting thing to confront them with. establishing the basics and good practices and ratios in an understandable fashion. breaking down a group of props and doing step by step simplistic versions in the beginner level tut, and something more complicated in the intermediate, and then even a specific section on style choices where we show how to push away from conventions and dull standards (which you're work often does quite brilliantly and would serve as an excellent example). But to also offer an advance subject/level of detail yet try to remain non-biased toward individual styles and exaggeration or overly stylish distortions, would be what you'd strive for in the construction/deconstruction side which you have been doing well in your already posted tuts.

I think the best way to attain/create such a tutorial is to collaborate on it, even clearly labeling individuals approaches in the examples/style section, for example. make a crate in a really simple form for the beginner tut, have a more advance/high detail yet relatively standard crate for the intermediate tut, then in a separate section at the end just showing examples of where it can be taken stylistically by having our own individual edits to show the possibilities and diversity available, all advanced and knowledgeable pixel'ers would be more than welcome (nigh encouraged) to contribute as it'd make it even more insightful. If we collaborate on a large scale, and collectively moderate what goes into the tutorial, I'm convinced an end product would be ultimately very helpful insightful and otherwise interesting to all skill-levels.

this was me fooling around with trying to keep it simple too

and also I did a lil experiment conveying how easy it is to change the perspective of objects with both colour and pixel placement, which is why it is harder than it looks to get things looking just right in relation to everything else. I think for the proposed beginner tut/beginner section of the tut, lower resolution might help, also another Idea I had was we could even start a thread requesting newbies to attempt to produce things without any reference, and with a few submissions we can form a consensus on what we should concentrate on explaining, and also it would serve a good purpose for the tutorial as I do believe within the greater context pointing out common beginner mistakes can only help people avoid them and grow. of course not dwelling on them, and offering concise direction on how to avoid and viable solutions.

another thing is I think offering one solution for some problems isn't the best thing, I dislike tutorials that offer a singular solution to a problem in such a way to make out it is the 'only solution'. I think we should offer several approaches, which would promote that frame of mind that there are many approaches to solving problems, with enough time and built up confidence they may be more likely to deduce their own solutions, this of course will only really be viable if we have greater community input on the tutorial. but I believe there are quite alot of enthusiasts that will benefit from more intermediate tutorials.and of course the persistent and driven newbies will reach the stage where it will help them push on further.

I would have absolutely loved such a resource when I started, I took the long path of self teaching and learning from studies, only really saw tutorials after learning almost all the information before hand.


also on the matter of the lamp, it has some noticable flaws, but overall it has a fantastic design, and you touched on one thing that is a huge part of visual art, defying reality/lighting/physics or any other real world constraint to convey and reinforce forms and shapes, I personally think that the way you emphasized the sphere is entirely a good choice on your part, i believe if you did fall victim to simulating real world lighting behavior on that point in particular it would actually detract significantly from the object's design and the visual cues that reinforce the shape and material from which it is formed.

posts got insanely long, wall of text alert  :lol:

Offline Facet

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #14 on: June 15, 2012, 07:25:37 pm
Grimsane:

Some really good points. Especially with the simplified example. My feeling is that a really good tutorial does not need various levels of complexity, just refined diagramming simple enough for the complete neophyte and accompanying text to be consulted alongside practice. The extrapolation of concepts is an essential part of understanding and practicing intermediates can consult the forum for personalised advice. A little exposition of common demonstrations of artist license would definitely be worth the while though ;D

Cyangmou:

By 'removing' earlier I was just referencing the over-bright highlights not the column itself, but as Grimsane points out; there is a fairly large difference of scale in relation to a figure. The linework and untextured column is much clearer and more explanatory. Similar versions of all the elements and alternate lighting senarios would be a huge workload but very welcome :P. The lamppost is quite complicated for the set but the example of the more nuanced footprint (the cog) is a great idea to reinforce effective construction.

OT:

I doubt rendering a 3-PP. rearing war-centaur would come easily to anyone, regardless of experience :D. Anyone with a decent sense of self-awareness and a desire to improve will frequently feel inadequate and that drawing is plainly demonstrative of a good command of most of that which you've listed. The devil, as always, is in the details
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 09:12:39 pm by Facet »

Offline Grimsane

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 07:42:48 pm
Quote from: Facet
Grimsane:
Some really good points. Especially with the simplified example. My feeling is that a really good tutorial does not need various levels of complexity, just refined diagraming simple enough for the complete accolyte and accompying text to be consulted alongside practice. The extrapolation of concepts is an essential part of understanding and practicing intermediates can consult the forum for personalised advice.
yeah actually after thinking about it, I agree completely, but i do however think it should definitely be sectioned very well, that's why i kept alternating between using the term beginner tut and "section", if it is segmented gradually tackling more complex concepts and slowly throwing terminology at you, then I believe it would be more comfortable, but agree it should be 1 contiguous tutorial set
Quote from: Facet
A little exposition of common demonstrations of artist license would definitely be worth the while though ;D
interestingly phrased, but yeah I want to emphasis my desire for that to come true, the implications would be potentially amazing :0' and inspiring which I think would be a great factor to the tut.
Quote from: Facet
I doubt rendering a 3-PP. rearing war-centaur would come easily to anyone, regardless of experience :D
hahaha agreed it's epic  ;D

Offline Corinthian Baby

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #16 on: June 15, 2012, 08:11:10 pm
This is all great stuff! Invigorating discussion.

One of the things you guys mentioned that struck me, was how very basic objects can convey an overall style, ie. steampunk is derived from merely, a barrel, a crate, and a chest, objects that are more platonic and ubiquitous across time periods and genres. What I'm curious about is, what makes something stylistically adhere to that certain style/genre? Obviously the objects rendered have character, and are a unique take on traditional objects, but is it possible to define which features illicit a steampunk feel? I think this is an important question to ask for the pixeler and also the audience, because that impression relies on both, one to convey and one to interpret.

The lamp seems to make it more obvious, as it is a more specific prop, as does the column, even if it's meant to be separate. My thinking is that it could be a combination of the off-color placement of the items, for example the skewed planes of the crate, with the curvature of the metal, and it's shiny colors of yellow/blue/green that contribute to the Victorian vibe.

Likewise I think it is interesting how disparate elements by themselves can be neutral, but in relation to everything at once, contributes to building that genre association. I think with the deconstruction of that column, we see this in action. The red volumed version shows an ionic column, which harks back to a specific timeframe, being originated from antiquity, but resurfaced in the renaissance and neoclassicism until it became just as much ubiquitous as the crate or the barrel. However, when you get into the rendering of it, the colors and bolts make it look metal, which columns are traditionally not, so it creates a whole new context to a classic item, that changes how we look at it, which is worth investigating. (If not for the tutorial then for personal gain.)

Anyway, in terms of the tutorials, you guys have some good ideas, and I'm curious to see how it manifests itself. The lack of good tutorials is basically why I learned things the hard way, but I almost prefer that in a way, because it forces you to fail faster, and solidifies the lessons more abrasively, which reinforces you to become better.

Offline Facet

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #17 on: June 15, 2012, 11:03:06 pm
I want to emphasis my desire for that (miscellaneous collective experience) to come true, the implications would be potentially amazing :0' and inspiring which I think would be a great factor to the tut.
Grim; your 'observations' thread seems to be the place to collate some of those 'tricks of the trade' anecdotally. Then an appropriate nugget of insight could be rolled into wherever it's needed later, (so long as you can steer the thread back on track :P) fyi I'm sure I don't know of what of you of mean of my grammar.

CB:

Pixelpiledriver was just talking about taking form from function in a neighbouring thread; in the case of steampunk: gears and pipes and bellows fulfill the equivalent niche that electronic technology holds in a contempory setting or donkeys and men with whips might in the medieval paradigm :crazy:. These kinds of dependencies trickle down (or can be made to) into most aspects of scenery design.   

Cyanmou:

To expand on what I was saying earlier: the application of some of those ideas is a whole different kettle of fish to simply building a working understanding of them. No-one would be so bold as to proclaim a complete and unabridged comprehension. We're all journeymen :y:
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 01:32:24 am by Facet »

Offline Corinthian Baby

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #18 on: June 16, 2012, 09:48:34 am
Yeah I was watching that thread and it fits nicely. I suppose there are fundamental genre basics, but by reinterpreting them and presenting them in new ways visually, you can keep them fresh, even if rooted in tropes. One thing that has always amazed me is that certain elements appear in almost every 2D game (ie. grass, trees) yet no two grass tiles or tree sprites are the same. It's kind of like in nature itself, they are all imitations/iterations of the "perfect" grass/tree. It also fits with the journeyman idea, that we can only ever strive for perfection, but yet not dare achieve it. But this is all just a philosophical tangent, and doesn't effect the actual tutorial or tutorial sprites, though perhaps it would prove a useful study for an article of it's own.

Offline Cyangmou

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 11:09:53 am
Short and simple answers :D

@Grimsane reply#13
Having a beginner and intermediate tut… hmm maybe. At the moment let’s finish the perspective tutorial as good as possible. I like the idea of how to make it and what can be achieved. This is something which really motivates.

I think it’s better if we gather some beginner sprites if we show how to improve pixel technique. Here are quite often bases, trees, grass tiles etc.. maybe if we find a „great“ example we can ask to use it to experiment with a tutorial. I think we also need  to work with beginners to make sure that it’s understandable. As I said I don’t really want to talk about pixel technique within the perspective tutorial.

Your examples/simplified versions are quite nice. I also dislike the tutorials which show you exactly one way how to do it (I call them „as I’d do it“) it’s also pretty easy to spot out things which were made with those tutorials, and those things never reach a similar result because everybody sees and work different (which is really good)
I also wished I had a great resource as I started. The things which really helped me then (as I already sprited about one year were cure’s pixel technique tutorial and most of Helm’s examples in the ramblethread here (although I weren’t capable to understand all he pointed out that time).


@facet reply #14
I tried something like this with the chest. Similar to „how to“ and „what can be achieved“ the column … yeah maybe overworking. But I think it’s also a good example for a different resolution and a oblique lighting.

@corinthian baby reply#14
Most oft he stylistic choices is in the details. It’s hard to explan but with the time you learn kind of a „visual vocabulary“ and it seems that it worked for this special case. The lamp is very obvious.

@facet reply #15
Yes we will need a different tutorial for those aaprroaches, (if we want to explain them). I think it’s also really senseless to talk about working out something if the base isn’t right. I think if the construction (lineart, drawing) is right and the lighting seems to be OK (most people don’t even recognize lightning issues) it’s time to add all those fancy pixel stuff. Also design is completely another theme – PP explained in his thread some great things and with his princess designs he breaked some of his rules quite professional.

@Corinthian Baby reply#15
Grass and especially trees are fascinating me now for a long time. Yeah that’s not really related to our current stuff, but I share the same point of view.


I polished the lamp a bit more, tried to make the park bench, which doesn’t serve any purpose (to complicated, not really useful, also would be hard to explain and I don’t really like something oft he design)
I also tried to simplify the box example as much as possible. I used only 3 colors, I think everybody should be able to reproduce it. And then we can show what’s possible to achieve with lots of practice. But from the basics both are equally good and alright.
to the column: Yeah we w ill definitely need it for the tut because of the forms and the construction. I think rendering a classical version (like the box example) would simplify it a lot.

http://www.abload.de/img/tut_sprites_v5_1su7x5.png



« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 11:26:12 am by Cyangmou »
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Offline Grimsane

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 12:15:55 pm
yeah you struck upon some of the things, it is all down to subtleties and use of colour and overall tones, there is something intrinsic, expressive & emotive that can be tapped into with all of those things,
and on tiles not looking alike, that isn't necessarily accurate, there are, but I agree there are a greater many tiles that define themselves absolutely from one another stylistically, and it's just that styles and artistic licenses, styles can also emerge collaboratively over time like art movements,

the only thing is Video Game artists as a collective are not concentrated or arrogant as a whole if that were the case you could be sure that there very well could be a collective pretentiousness that would seek to define a label for each style established, like groups of artists of the past (surrealists for example, not even a century past a group of people formed connections with each other and began exploring the subconscious and what not, the theme that tied the group together was vague but pointed and definitely one worth exploring, they established and kept pushing "surrealism" "Surrealist movement" and now it is an established genre (or whatever you'd like to call it) and each of those artist had an entirely different approach to conveying so sub-genres emerged etc etc which just doesn't seem to happen in this medium), that and there aren't enough critics in the 'art critic' sense, they usually imbue and push their own interpretations and terminology upon everyone else when the artist's and pretentious enough to proclaim their own :lol: while such labels would make referring to each style relatively convenient in conversation it isn't entirely necessary

I personally don't like the pigeon holing and restricted expectations genrelizing things brings, so to some degree I think it may well be a great thing that we have generally avoided that type of thing, one reason I am drawn to games in general is the immense potential for creativity, you can't draw people into a world as viscerally or interactively as you can with games, the potential for story telling and exploration of worlds is unparalleled, written literature for instance relies on time consuming descriptions and well articulated writing to give you the imaginative experience but then every individual has the potential to imbue and interpret something entirely different from the written source, with game art you absorb complex and potentially magical scenes objects characters and worlds like you would a painting, and the narrative unfolds more naturally and instantaneously, for comparison sake a scene in a game could run 30 seconds that contains pointed dialog effective animation that conveys a story, that exact same scene could potentially take several pages of text to convey, and the aesthetic will be completely formed based on the readers imagination and the writers proficiency to convey the scenes. I could keep going but won't  :P

and we are indeed journeymen, claiming mastership would (likely be wrong, but also~) be like dropping every intention of exploring and experimenting, there are almost unlimited possibilities, why stop and be content with anything when there is always places to improve or explore? and arguably flaws imbue character and without our flaws we and our work could be quite dull


Quote from:  Facet
Grim; your 'observations' thread seems to be the place to collate some of those 'tricks of the trade' anecdotally. Then an appropriate nugget of insight could be rolled into wherever it's needed later, (so long as you can steer the thread back on track ) fyi I'm sure I don't know of what of you of mean of my grammar.
decent enough suggestion, I would simply keep the OP updated with the collection of information to be easily viewable, and haha yeah, it's starting to derail quite obviously. but I was getting the impression no one was really up to engaging in the topic too much, I can definitely spend sometime thinking upon creating and gathering relevant material to collate.
:lol: there's nothing wrong with the grammar per-say, it was just an interesting flow of phrases, it was eloquent enough  ;D

ow ninja'd, @Cyangmou: I am in complete agreement and look forward to collaborating/contributing to it. I find it quite exciting  :) Great new additions too.
btw I am doing an interesting experiment with your silhouettes, mostly for my own benefit and to see how good my predictive, and style skills are. I'll post soon  :D
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 12:18:09 pm by Grimsane »

Offline Corinthian Baby

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 06:59:58 pm
Yeah that's also something that I've thought about, that there are no "movements" in pixel art, really just core principles/techniques to guide people. It stands as an example that not everything has to be hyper organized or codified under a solid brand or label. However in terms of styles, people will usually refer to the games the graphics come from as that style. Like for example, the old (snes) masters who created Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, and Seiken Densetsu 3, have their work refered to as CT style, etc. rather than the style of a movement.

I agree that games are an ambitious outlet of imagination and creativity, which is also why I am drawn to them. But I think to compare the medium to literature is inaccurate in a way. One clearly shows, the other suggests. I think it however might be more worthwhile to compare to cinema because they are both visual forms of story telling. But do games trump cinema because it implicates the player in the narrative? That's a matter of personal taste, and certainly each have their own merits and exist as competent art forms. Games are more involved though, opening up the possibility of failure for a specific task rather than watching the hero (usually) complete it on his own without any investment from the viewer. This is a debate of medium, but I think the context of games, and pixel art's involvement in it, facilitates a truly unique experience.

This new bench looks good, very art nuevo, and I'm curious to see what it looks like rendered in color. I think it would also be cool to see for the bench, the basic shapes/forms that define it, and then how you can deviate from that, and add stylistic characteristics to it, to create something more unique than the basic/ideal, like you did with the crate. I'm also guessing it's still for the 32x32 res. (There was only a question earlier of whether or not that pillar was more fit for 32 or 16.)

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #22 on: June 16, 2012, 07:22:06 pm
yeah the  bench, I am not quite sure what to do with it, as I said something is bothering me at it. Maybe I won't render it, to its finish.

Now I revamped the chars. I am very proud of them, not at least because of the face.

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Offline Grimsane

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 08:03:33 pm
yeah the  bench, I am not quite sure what to do with it, as I said something is bothering me at it. Maybe I won't render it, to its finish.

Now I revamped the chars. I am very proud of them, not at least because of the face.


ohhh those are lovely  ^-^

here's my doodley experiment btw:

got a few things right, but didn't spent time detailing anything, and based most the colours off your chest

@Corinthian Baby, yeah I wasn't really comparing with a bias toward either, and in now way putting down written literature in any way. Just for the point of illustrating how effective games can be at story telling, each medium has it's merits and equally enjoyable to the right audience

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 09:46:34 pm
should be self-explainable. Is it?

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #25 on: July 01, 2012, 09:36:32 am
Thanks for this, it's very educational. Will follow your topic and hope to learn a lot from it !

Offline Lackey

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #26 on: July 01, 2012, 03:24:35 pm
I'd like to see your thoughts on how you'd make a tile set consistent with the correct axonometric perspective. You run into problems if you're using 32x32 pixel tiles and you want to have a ground made of square bricks or something, do you just avoid that kind of situation?



Edit: you can get some pretty good square shapes if you use 2x1 tile constructions and don't mind a pixel gap or so every tile.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 03:49:14 pm by Lackey »

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #27 on: July 03, 2012, 01:54:48 pm
general you have 4 possibilities for a problem like this, if you really want to have square tiles. If I'd make a game I'd avoid them, or use method 4, but not because of the tileability



1) like an artist - ignore it (1 tile)
2) like a cheater - 32*21 tiles, 32x24 would be the correct one, you need 2x1 tiles
3) like a perfectionist - exact perspective 3x1 tiles, can cause some problems with level design or if you have a strongly limited amount of tiles
4) like a boss - as I already pointed out, nobody will see the difference in the perspective + you have all the advantages of an iso game, it draws you in, it looks awesone ... needs 2x1 tiles

from the deviations:
1 biggest dev
4
2
3 correct perspective

it's awesome how you can baffle the eyes  with the impression of angled or curved lines. Although method 4 is actual a 32° angle (45° in iso) it's so flat it will read as 45° angle in an axonometric RPG perspective too.

With the gaps and details you can lead away the eye from the perspectivic issues. Although I think a checkboard pattern with some square objects on it looks always cruel and cluttered with 90° angles - this is the actual reason why I'd avoid it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 02:03:27 pm by Cyangmou »
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Offline Lackey

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Re: tutorial sprites

Reply #28 on: July 07, 2012, 04:25:10 pm
Somehow I missed your reply. Doing the iso style tiles makes sense. As you say, it breaks up the all the 90 degree angles too.