AuthorTopic: I need help <3  (Read 11041 times)

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

I need help <3

on: August 31, 2011, 07:14:34 pm
Can you guys possibly help me out? I'm trying to design a game with 3/4th perspective for a game community a lot of you might know, known as BYOND. I have been spriting for 2 months and I'm not really sure what to do what-so-ever. I spend 2 days on 32x32 works and I'm never happy with what I make. I want to know what I'm doing wrong with the perspective, proportions, as well as shading.

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #1 on: August 31, 2011, 09:20:45 pm
Ok, first off let me say that if you want to improve, you need to live and breath sprites. Look at other peoples sprites. Edit sprites. Try to copy other sprites. Just making stuff from scratch won't get you far unless you're an expert on human anatomy. And then there's also basic pixel art knowledge.

Someone linked me this tutorial a while back, and I've been reading it several times, and it's only now after a few months that I really understand most of the stuff.
http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11299

Now for this particular sprite:

- Lacks contrast
Needs heavier outline. More contrast between shading and highlights.

- Perspective
In a 3/4 perspective, you'll be seeing mostly the top of the head, and thus the shoulders should be closer to the head.

- Skin tones
Try to make the darker shades red and the highlights yellow. But don't overdo it.
Just using shades of brown makes it look strange.

- Jaw line
Looks kinda weird with the pixels placed like a L, try to avoid that.



I'm not that good at anatomy though, so my arms and legs might look strange. (I'm really bad with feet too)
I also tried to make him more square headed, but that's a personal preference I guess.

Edit: I should probably not have moved down the ears, because that messes with the perspective.

Edit: tweaked it further with improved perspective. (also removed mouth, personal preference for low res sprites)
I also thought the eyes were a bit too feminine on my edit, so I made a female version too with slimmer shoulders and no shorts :P

« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 10:00:48 pm by Seiseki »

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #2 on: August 31, 2011, 10:53:23 pm
So something more like this?

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #3 on: August 31, 2011, 11:02:57 pm
Yeah, but for increased perspective, you can lower the eyes and move the shoulders up.
That also looks less like a fat baby compared to my edits! ;DDD

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #4 on: August 31, 2011, 11:06:46 pm
Yeah, but for increased perspective, you can lower the eyes and move the shoulders up.
That also looks less like a fat baby compared to my edits! ;DDD
Well I took the eye brawls from the one you did because it looked better and I took you advice on the L being near the jawbone and instead made the shoulders exist instead of mashing it into the side of his face. Then I rounded out the "shorts" put the crotch in there similar to yours and changed the arms to look less bulky? I also used the skin tone you used because it contrasts nicely :3



^ Lowered Eyes for better perspective
« Last Edit: August 31, 2011, 11:09:08 pm by XLR8ED »

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #5 on: August 31, 2011, 11:14:08 pm
Well the thing is, you sorta need to mash the shoulders into the face if you want to get the perspective right..
Although a lot of games tend to screw the perspective so it's up to personal preference I guess :P

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 11:20:13 pm
Well the thing is, you sorta need to mash the shoulders into the face if you want to get the perspective right..
Although a lot of games tend to screw the perspective so it's up to personal preference I guess :P
Oh yeah, that does make sense, I see what you're saying!
Hmm...I don't really know how to do that though :'[ when I move the shoulder/head up/down a pixel it creates the L.

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #7 on: August 31, 2011, 11:27:30 pm
Well the thing is, you sorta need to mash the shoulders into the face if you want to get the perspective right..
Although a lot of games tend to screw the perspective so it's up to personal preference I guess :P
Oh yeah, that does make sense, I see what you're saying!
Hmm...I don't really know how to do that though :'[ when I move the shoulder/head up/down a pixel it creates the L.

Well, can you break up the L by using a darker/lighter color? :P
At least that's what I do, it might not be optimal or even a good idea :D

I'm actually a bit uncertain myself as to how much perspective there should be for 3/4 perspective.
I've tried googleing but without much luck.

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 11:31:23 pm
Well the thing is, you sorta need to mash the shoulders into the face if you want to get the perspective right..
Although a lot of games tend to screw the perspective so it's up to personal preference I guess :P
Oh yeah, that does make sense, I see what you're saying!
Hmm...I don't really know how to do that though :'[ when I move the shoulder/head up/down a pixel it creates the L.

Well, can you break up the L by using a darker/lighter color? :P
At least that's what I do, it might not be optimal or even a good idea :D

I'm actually a bit uncertain myself as to how much perspective there should be for 3/4 perspective.
I've tried googleing but without much luck.
Yeah not a lot is studied under 3/4th perspective, but this is my competition



I think I'll do fine haha

Offline jams0988

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 346
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 02:30:14 am
Quote
Yeah not a lot is studied under 3/4th perspective, but this is my competition....I think I'll do fine haha
Their artwork is on about the same level as yours, but they have a lot more done, it seems. Better work fast to catch up! ;)
If you keep on posting here, I'm sure you'll beat them, hahah. There are some true pixel-geniuses floating around these parts. =D

For the perspective, there's not really any set rule. Whatever looks good is fine. You just have to make sure that all your sprites share the same perspective. If they all look like they're being viewed at different angles, your final product isn't going to make sense obviously, hahah. Your last edit looks like his head is being viewed from above, while his body looks like it's being viewed straight on...but I honestly don't think it matters much with such small sprites. If you did want to fix it, you'd have to angle his body a tiny bit, so that his legs were a bit less wide than his torso. Move that vanishing point!

If you want, I mean. Like I said, I don't think anyone's really gonna care much. Even a lot of pro games have some slightly-off perspective sometimes. It kind of comes with the 2D videogames art territory, since a sprite's perspective obviously can't change based on it's position relative to the camera like a 3D model can. It's the style and charm of 2D that counts the most I think!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 02:36:00 am by jams0988 »

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 02:47:54 am
I dunno, I kind of like the look of it the way it is. I mean it's a base and looks way cooler with clothes and hair like this.

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 02:57:19 am
The color palette for the clothes and hair uses a straight ramp, in other words you're just make the colors darker.
In real life colors get more de-saturated the less light that hits them..
In pixel art a lot of people prefer to add in a little blue or purple in the shades because those are cold colors which also gives of a nice contrast.

Your colors also lack a bit in contrast as well.
For the hair you need to make it darker on the sides.
Also, for the shirt you need to break up the [ shape.

And as Jams pointed out, his body looks like it's viewed from the front, which makes it look like his head is bent forawards and he's looking down on the ground..
Either you make him shorter, or wider. It might be that his legs are too long.

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 03:27:28 am
The color palette for the clothes and hair uses a straight ramp, in other words you're just make the colors darker.
In real life colors get more de-saturated the less light that hits them..
In pixel art a lot of people prefer to add in a little blue or purple in the shades because those are cold colors which also gives of a nice contrast.

Your colors also lack a bit in contrast as well.
For the hair you need to make it darker on the sides.
Also, for the shirt you need to break up the [ shape.

And as Jams pointed out, his body looks like it's viewed from the front, which makes it look like his head is bent forawards and he's looking down on the ground..
Either you make him shorter, or wider. It might be that his legs are too long.

I dunno what you mean by using the different colors of the color wheel, I guess I don't have an understanding of what colors go with one another?

I lowered the body and also changed the hair and shirt???

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 03:53:56 am
Take a look at these two palettes:





Also, you need more contrast, the darker shades need to be darker. You can add a new darker color and use that.
The hair seems to random as well, try a more simple hairstyle that you can handle better.
And I also think he needs to show more forehead and possibly less shoulders because it still looks like he's looking down rather than it being the perspective.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 03:58:11 am by Seiseki »

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 03:56:38 am
Take a look at these two palettes:




Alright, so for green I'm going to want to add more blue the darker I go?

Offline Seiseki

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 915
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Starmancer
    • OminuxGames
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/35207.htm
    • StarmancerGame
    • View Profile
    • Starmancer Patreon

Re: I need help <3

Reply #15 on: September 01, 2011, 04:00:42 am
Take a look at these two palettes:




Alright, so for green I'm going to want to add more blue the darker I go?

Yes, be careful not to make the colors to strong or it will look strange. It will also look washed out if you do the opposite and drag down the saturation.

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 04:03:33 am
Take a look at these two palettes:




Alright, so for green I'm going to want to add more blue the darker I go?

Yes, be careful not to make the colors to strong or it will look strange. It will also look washed out if you do the opposite and drag down the saturation.

So I should be looking for changes in the R/B/G but also what about the hue and Lum?

Offline jams0988

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 346
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 04:19:07 am
Quote
The color palette for the clothes and hair uses a straight ramp, in other words you're just make the colors darker.
In real life colors get more de-saturated the less light that hits them..
That's actually not true in all cases...if your light sources are white, the straight ramp is the way to go:
http://www.huevaluechroma.com/

It might be a tough read, but it's definitely worth learning. It's very interesting! =D
I need to re-read it soon, too. I'm starting to forget some of it, hahah.

You do have a point that straight ramps are usually pretty boring looking, though. And it's also true that there are usually non-white light sources around in real life, hahah. X3
Anyway, everyone should go check out that link and read all of it. It dispels a lot of myths that have been floating around the art community about color forever. I was surprised to find out that everything I thought I knew about color was completely wrong, lol. "Make the green blue when it gets darker" is over simplifying it, though, and in many cases will lead the artist in the wrong direction. What if the character is inside a yellow pyramid with white construction-site lights as the main light source? There'd be no blue anywhere, and the secondary light source would probably be the yellow reflected light from the room - the green would be sliding towards yellow in the shadows, the complete opposite of blue!
« Last Edit: September 01, 2011, 04:43:37 am by jams0988 »

Offline Cure

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/2621.htm
    • facebook.com/logantannerart
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 07:18:54 am
that palette was created just as a visual tool to illustrate hue-shifting. green needn't necessarily darken toward blue, especially as drastically as in that example. as has already been pointed out, it's all up to lighting conditions.

and 'straight ramp' just means a ramp without hue-shifting. It's primarily about hue, not saturation or luminosity.

Offline jams0988

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 346
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 03:00:08 pm
Quote
and 'straight ramp' just means a ramp without hue-shifting. It's primarily about hue, not saturation or luminosity.
?
I know what a straight ramp is...and under white lighting conditions, your shading would follow a more or less straight ramp. And I've always heard that value is *much* more important than hue shifts - I'm pretty sure I could make a black and white painting, but I think both of us would have a pretty hard time painting anything just using hue shifts, hahah. Now, don't get me wrong, seiseki's advice will get you a decent result 70% of the time, but his advice *is* a huge oversimplification of how color works. When XLR8ED bumps into those 30% of cases where he needs to know how color actually works, and simply hue shifting to a random color is producing bad results, he won't be able to do anything about it.

And that's why I posted that link. I think it's best to understand how color works, instead of just relying on a shortcut that works by luck 70% of the time. You can hue shift to bright purple for a lot of pixel art because the art is so small it simply makes it "pop." But shadows aren't bright purple in real life. What happens when XLR goes to make a large sprite, like a background or something? The larger your piece of art, the more realistic it needs to look - highlighter purple shadows look great stylistically when they're small, but when the piece is larger, they're just going to burn out your eyes. If you went to a painting forum and told people "just hue shift and make the colors darker," you'd get shot down pretty quickly, hahah.

Anyway, sorry Seiseki, didn't mean to jump on your advice; it'll definitely hold true most of the time. It's just that it won't be true *all* the time. My link explains why, and how to pick the correct color for any condition (with math even, hahah!)

Cheers, guys. o/

Offline Cure

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/2621.htm
    • facebook.com/logantannerart
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #20 on: September 01, 2011, 03:58:04 pm
his advice *is* a huge oversimplification of how color works.

that was my point, and the post(s) to which my reply was directed

Offline jams0988

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 346
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #21 on: September 01, 2011, 07:44:05 pm
Quote
that was my point, and the post(s) to which my reply was directed
Oh, hahah! Sorry, I read that post completely the wrong way. Now that I reread it, I see what you were saying. My bad, thought you were addressing me!  :P

Offline e4r

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 111
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #22 on: September 01, 2011, 11:53:36 pm
Wow naruto GOA. -_- There pixel work has many uneeded colors so you could do better then there work easily.

Offline TheMonsterAtlas

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 110
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 04:53:48 pm
Uhm...so what is natural lighting from the sun considered? Would it be considered white or something with a little more yellow?

Here's the updated icon of the character again, I'm not sure where to go next to make it even better. Should I add in another shade/4th color?

Offline RedKnight91

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 117
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #24 on: September 03, 2011, 12:32:53 am
Uhm...so what is natural lighting from the sun considered? Would it be considered white or something with a little more yellow?

Here's the updated icon of the character again, I'm not sure where to go next to make it even better. Should I add in another shade/4th color?



Sunlight is white at noon, orange-reddish at sunset and dawn : )

In my opinion, to make it better you should add some contrast to the shirt and the hair, like this


I did some other changes too: the shape of his hair,shortened the legs, arms and bust to make it look in the right perspective, and some minor edits.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 12:48:50 am by RedKnight91 »
Bear with my poor english, I'm italian!

Offline pistachio

  • 0011
  • **
  • Posts: 639
  • Karma: +4/-0
  • Mostly lurking
    • http://pixeljoint.com/p/125138.htm
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #25 on: September 03, 2011, 12:58:45 am
Who-ho-hoa! 23 replies already!

I think you may be confusing him, jams... I agree that value is more important than hue-shifting, and that it should be applied first (this usually means the first version is in black and white and color is applied afterwards). But it's quite common, in fact, more often than not to see hue shifting in well-made pixelart; even some realistic ones, for some reason, but especially in stylized pieces like these. It'd be unusual to not have any hue-shifting even under certain lighting conditions, but if you feel that's what you want to do, go ahead.

Value's the main concern here. They're quite low on the hair and shirt. Other than that, the light source appears to be overhead but isn't very defined, partly because of the values. From a 1x scale the shirt almost appears to be pillow-shaded, whereas I imagine it a a cylinder, or even, for the sake of keeping things readable, a plain field of color.

To preserve readability on something of this size, keep pixel clusters large. Don't define details using one or two pixels; for example, what you've done on the character's shoulder pads. Same with lighting; keep it general, you don't have to click around forming lighted strands of hair or folds of cloth with individual pixels. If you do, try to buffer (smooth) things out with another color until it looks okay, but don't use too many of course--one buffer color should be fine for this size--and don't forget to avoid forbidden practices of banding and pillow-shading.



You have some unnecessary colors as well. Note some have been adjusted to be used for more than one purpose; for example, I got rid of two shades formerly used for the sprite's pants. Since it's harder to distinguish between dark colors at a glance, I used the darkest shade to fill in for both hair and pants, and replaced the lighter shade with brown. They're single pixels, so they'll be harder to notice immediately, although they do give the pants a warmer tone... Similar to the rest of the sprite. Another thing I did is used gray to act as sky speculars on the hair. You can read about those, among other things, here.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2011, 01:55:11 am by pistachio »

Offline RedKnight91

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 117
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #26 on: September 03, 2011, 01:04:18 am
Who-ho-hoa! 23 replies already!

I think you may be confusing him, jams... I agree that value is more important than hue-shifting, and that it should be applied first. But it's quite common, in fact, more often than not to see hue-shifting in well-made pixelart; even some realistic ones, for some reason, but especially in stylized pieces like these. It'd be unusual to not have any hue-shifting even under certain lighting conditions.

Value's the main concern here. They're quite low on the hair and shirt. Other than that, the light source appears to be overhead but isn't very defined, partly because of the values. From a 1x scale the shirt almost appears to be pillow-shaded.

To preserve readability on something of this size, keep pixel clusters large. Don't define details using one or two pixels. (for example, what you've done on the character's shoulder pads).

You have some unnecessary colors as well.



I like what you did with the hair!!!
Bear with my poor english, I'm italian!

Offline jams0988

  • 0010
  • *
  • Posts: 346
  • Karma: +0/-1
    • View Profile

Re: I need help <3

Reply #27 on: September 04, 2011, 06:12:43 pm
Quote
I think you may be confusing him, jams... I agree that value is more important than hue-shifting, and that it should be applied first (this usually means the first version is in black and white and color is applied afterwards). But it's quite common, in fact, more often than not to see hue shifting in well-made pixelart; even some realistic ones, for some reason, but especially in stylized pieces like these. It'd be unusual to not have any hue-shifting even under certain lighting conditions, but if you feel that's what you want to do, go ahead.
Aye, I agree with everything you said; even in full-size paintings, good artists constantly use hue shifting to do great (highly stylized) work. Pixel art probably needs hue shifting even more, because the resolution's usually lower. I think great pixel artists understand how color *actually* works though, which is what allows them to stylize things so effectively. I just didn't agree with the advice that was given earlier, because it really only applied to certain situations...I'm not against hue shifting at all - almost all my paintings are hue-shifted far past what could be considered realistic, but I hue shift with a goal in mind, based on what I know to be realistic. In any case, color theory won't hurt anyone, hahah. X3

Love what you did with the sprite, too. Looks much better. =)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 06:16:31 pm by jams0988 »