AuthorTopic: GR#055 - Still Image Summon - Anatomy, Pose  (Read 8271 times)

Offline sonic_reaper

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GR#055 - Still Image Summon - Anatomy, Pose

on: June 20, 2011, 09:33:21 pm
This was inspired by Amano's illustrations they used and converter to monsters/summons in FFV and FFVI.  It's not meant to replicate the style, but I've always been taken by his illustration ability.  But anywho, a sketchy start ...

Offline piffany

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #1 on: June 20, 2011, 09:46:52 pm
I'm not loving the olive green on her skin unless it's supposed to be moss. Also, she seems to be missing eyebrows.
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Disclaimer: I am still fairly new at pixel art, so please don't be offended by my negative critiques :)

Offline sonic_reaper

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #2 on: June 20, 2011, 09:56:54 pm
Update.  Changed some of the colors, added more details.  The image didn't feel "contained" (there wasn't a dark enough color of any of the available), so added intermittent outline.



Didn't even notice the eyebrow thing.  Still working at it.  The olive is still maybe too puke colored.  And the wrap/cloak/thing around her doesn't make sense in certain parts/areas.

Offline Psiweapon

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #3 on: June 20, 2011, 11:37:01 pm
Great cloth and LOVELY feet  :)

I actually liked the first skin colors better.

My critique would be that the the torso seems way too small for the legs.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 01:33:04 am
Hi. This piece has a few problems I tried to illustrate with the following animation



1. the legs and upper body are not the same size, they don't seem to belong together.
2. furthermore even when at the same size, it feels like the bent is impossible, or at the very least, very painful.
3. after rotation, the head is given a neck, however still the biggest problem here is that
4. the body language doesn't convey something I can understand. IS she holding her one arm with her other?

Before any further critique, these issues would best be considered. I have a feeling you need to work on your fundamental study of the human body before you can pull something like this off without basing the end result at least partly on luck.

Offline sonic_reaper

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 03:01:08 am
There are some rotation and angle issues, yes.  And adding a neck helps as well.  Thank you for spotting those.  However, your edit makes her ridiculously short.  No love for full figured women?  As for the body language, yes I was struggling with that.  But you guessed right.

But here's another approach (still a rough edit) ...



Periodic update;

« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 03:21:07 am by sonic_reaper »

Offline Cure

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 04:28:32 am
I'm pretty sure her legs are gigantic. Figure has nothing to do with it, just a matter of proportions. Her kneecaps are as big as her face and her head is half the size of her foot. The upper leg alone is longer than the entire torso. She could give birth to a skull the size of her own, with that hips to head ratio. How far do the tips of your own fingers extend down your leg, when you rest your arms at your sides?

I wouldn't call her 'full figured' either, those are pretty skinny arms, same goes for shoulder/neck/collarbone region.

the pose and angle of lower portion in relation to upper are both much better though

edit:
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 04:44:47 am by Cure »

Offline sonic_reaper

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 06:01:30 am
Okay no offence to you guys, cause I know and respect Helm's work.  But your edits just "look" wrong to me.  I am familiar with anatomical rules, the amount of heads tall a person should be, proportions of limbs, etc etc etc but I can't seriously look at those edits and say they "look" any better.  Call it a stylistic choice or what have you, but it just looks wrong to me.  Perhaps part of the issue is that I am still in the refining phase and things will change between now and when it is finished.  I am taking all comments into consideration, but know that the changes I make may not be as drastic as the edits have been so far.  I hope that is fair.

edit:  I may secretly have a fetish with gigantic legs.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 06:13:03 am by sonic_reaper »

Offline piffany

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 06:49:04 am
I have a few edits to offer. I like thinner anime-ish women, so maybe this is not that anatomically correct, but it looks pretty to me. Her hairline is lowered a bit. I like the hands posing with the flowers so that stayed. As for her billowing dress, please excuse the badly drawn cloth.

One more thing: her head's a little bit big for her body, but I was too lazy to change it.





edit: hmmm now that I look at it from further away, the balance and the curve of her body seems a little funny... :blind:
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 06:51:05 am by piffany »
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Offline TheInquisitor

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 03:39:58 pm
Two points here; firstly, the criticism about the proportions is correct. Whether it's a stylistic choice is not, the size difference between the legs and the body is way too big even on your newer version. You should follow Helm's version - I think that's the best one. You should shrink the legs, enlarge the upper body or do both to make it fit better. You don't have to make it totally accurate but right now it's too much.

Secondly, Cure and Helm are excellent pixel artists, but I feel their and your edits lack punch. These summons appear in battle scenes, so you want a more aggressive or flamboyant pose. Instead of having one arm holding the other, have an arm outstretched and pointing, as if casting a spell downwards or even directly up in the air. I don't like the hands holding flowers look, it's far too tame.

I say stick to Helm's edit - his proportions are right - and just try and give it a little more adventure.
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Offline Helm

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 04:01:42 pm
I absolutely agree that after anatomy issues are considered, there should be a wholesale reevaluation of the pose, for something with more pathos if this is a summon image. Reaper should select what he wants his sprite to signify (is it a bless spell? A spell of destruction?) and convey that through body language. But first, Reaper must understand the body. I do not think it's fair to chalk up the issues with this sprite to it's-my-style. Be brave!

Offline sonic_reaper

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 04:59:18 pm
Argh, now I'm in that frustrated limbo state when it comes to this sprite.  The pose is far too catatonic for her to come on screen and perform some powerful universe destroying attack.  So the best it could be is a healing/bless type spell.  Another option would be for the image to appear in the center of the screen as a type of symbol, with the chaos and havoc occurring in the background.

Fixed the proportions a bit more.   But now it looks like her legs are twisting one way and the body another.   :yell:

Another periodic update ...

Offline piffany

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 06:01:11 pm
I think it's looking pretty good! Perhaps a slightly longer waist?
--Piffany
Disclaimer: I am still fairly new at pixel art, so please don't be offended by my negative critiques :)

Offline TheInquisitor

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 10:33:55 pm
Personally I think this is looking worse. I mean no offence when I say this, I just think the original idea is getting lost here. I'd head back to Helm's version or even your original version because this new pose is more static than it was before. You'll probably get disgruntled with me saying this, but I think you're on the wrong track at the mo. To highlight a specific, the head is now in the standard position for drawing. The earlier versions had a nice angular head.

I've gone back to the original design after Helm's edits and made a few of my own:

« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 10:36:07 pm by TheInquisitor »
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Offline sonic_reaper

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #14 on: June 22, 2011, 01:53:13 am
I don't like that pose either though.  To be honest, I'm done with it.  I'll need a new approach, something from the ground up.  But thank you all for the criticisms.  I agree it's kind of a mess.  Good example of building something off a poor foundation.

Offline EyeCraft

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 03:11:14 am
I don't like that pose either though.  To be honest, I'm done with it.  I'll need a new approach, something from the ground up.  But thank you all for the criticisms.  I agree it's kind of a mess.  Good example of building something off a poor foundation.

Out of curiosity, what is the foundation in your figure drawing process?

Do you start with direct contours? Some kind of construction? Gesture?

To get a nice, flowing, energetic pose with a sense of rhythm to the lines I recommend you begin with a gesture drawing that focuses only on how the lines flow through the figure and lead the eye's movement. Feel the movement of the figure with line. After that, do some construction with the pelvis, ribcage, head and spine to get a sense of the balance of the pose. This is where you can get the pose "making sense" from a functional point. After that, get anatomical.  ;D

Offline pistachio

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #16 on: June 22, 2011, 03:33:43 am
Personally I think this is looking worse. I mean no offense* when I say this, I just think the original idea is getting lost here.

Agreed. A static image like this is probably going to have a lot of action going around to make up for lack of animation. It can be a bit excessive, just because it's something of a symbol.

Even when I think of healing or blessings, I think of a graceful, flowy pose as a suspended angel would assume. Right now the hair and cloth folds disregard, even seem to resist against it. They appear to vaguely display a forceful wind blowing right, or maybe the summon is moving left quickly, although the pose does not seem to reflect this. Well, except the possibility she's falling over, and her head's about to meet the pavement, whether it's 5 feet below, or 5,000 feet through a gaping hole in the heavenly clouds. Ouch. Helm's edit (as well as Cure's but not as much), sorry I have to say this, is the edit that I think made this most apparent. He could have rotated them a little less, just so they were still off to the right a bit. As for addressing the shrinking of the legs, it was the best edit, however.

Additionally the lightsource is very inconsistent, especially on the cloth. Do you really need that many highlights on it--or the hair for that matter? My eyes are constantly drawn to them because of this.

Here's my edit. Personally I think it's leaning more towards a destructive summon, but destructive in a feminine sort of way (I'm actually confused as to what to describe it, as now it turned out to be more of a healing/blessing like you decided on). Pretty sure the facial expression has the most to do with it. Also note, I used a skin palette from my edit in this thread. Just thought it would look good, and would be easy to replace the original palette with. Which, by the way, is rather monochromatic. (Although I suppose that's because you're trying to emulate a "classic" palette like that of the SNES or Genesis/Megadrive? In which case I almost immediately got the vibe, for some reason.)

I also borrowed an idea from Helm, which was, in turn, done by Inquisitor. Basically having her arm pointing down, casting some kind of spell. I like the look of this take on it; still retains the grace and flow that I intended. That was probably half the point of this edit, actually.

Rather than shrinking the legs, I kept them in their original position (taken from V1) and instead made the upper torso larger because A) the limits of MS Paint wouldn't let me rotate and B) I liked it and easily got used to it. However, I did make the right knee bend a bit more.

To get a further anatomical grasp, I filled in the gap between upper torso and legs, redrawing much of her upper torso; her breasts probably turned out too large, cough cough. I tried to keep the "full-figured" proportions in check. It seems like such a position like this would be rather painful now that I realize it, but since a third of her body is going to be cloaked, it's probably not something to worry about as long as the anatomy is (mostly) correct.

Here is a step-by-step, final edit to the right.



1, body rough (note action line). 2, fixing/changing some areas of shading, palette replacements, cleanup start. 3, adding rough hair (very rough--looks like fur. Sorry). Got lazy, so copypasted drapery, and final touches.

EDIT: You say you're done already? Is this out of frustration? Seems so, honestly. You seem to have gotten stuck with every new drawing. Shame you aren't keeping it up.

@Piff, Aye, that's another thing to consider. @Sonic Reaper, note that proportions of ancient Greek statues (of gods) generally reach about 8 heads high, more or less--usually more. However, keep in mind that their torsos are not undersized or their legs oversized. Perhaps considering applying this to the sprite if you're still willing to work on it?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 04:08:53 am by pistachio »

Offline piffany

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 03:43:03 am




Her proportions remind me of Greek goddesses, soft and feminine :) The movement looks great too.

--Piffany
Disclaimer: I am still fairly new at pixel art, so please don't be offended by my negative critiques :)

Offline TheInquisitor

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #18 on: June 22, 2011, 11:51:02 am
That's an excellent edit, Pistachio. That's exactly what I was going for. I did like the original legs for their style, but deemed them too large. Instead of increasing the size of the torso I went with Helm's revised legs. Your way around looks stronger though.

Nice job on better conveying the outstretched arm. That's the sort of look I was going for. One thing though is that I think there should be more of a point on the hand. At the moment it looks more like a casual swat of the hand than casting a spell.

Anyway, that's the best version yet by far. I think Pistachio really "gets" this piece.

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Offline Mathias

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #19 on: June 22, 2011, 10:36:16 pm
So she's supposed to be some powerful goddess type, right?

@THESE LAST FEW EDITS: Then I'd say that how her left hand indicates that she's preoccupied with preventing her draping curtain-looking dress from falling off is really working against that. That creates a worried, shy vibe, fear of being accidentally exposed, a weak vulnerability.

Either give her a little Cleopatra bravery or secure her clothing another way.

Offline EyeCraft

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #20 on: June 23, 2011, 07:03:25 am
Actually yeah I was going to mention it kind of looks like she's just stepped out of the shower or something.

Mathias has stated it much more coherently, though. I second the notion of having the drapes secured somehow, or a Sistine-chapel-Last-Judgement-style divinely-floating drapery that just happen to cover her private regions.

Offline piffany

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #21 on: June 23, 2011, 07:34:38 pm
Interesting how some of the drapery are so conspicious in covering some people's private parts, while others are blatantly exposed. I wonder if it has to do with god vs humans?
--Piffany
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Offline sonic_reaper

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #22 on: June 24, 2011, 12:56:37 am
Seriously?  Those were painted on after.  Michaelangelo had them all nude.

Offline piffany

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #23 on: June 24, 2011, 01:45:03 am
Seriously?  Those were painted on after.  Michaelangelo had them all nude.

sounds familiar, guess i forgot
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 01:58:54 am by piffany »
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Offline Mathias

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Re: Still Image Summon

Reply #24 on: June 24, 2011, 03:48:13 am
Oh awesome idea, eyecrafty. That would look really nice, done all renaissance-ish.
And yep, an artist was hired to come in much later, and cover all the "offensive" nudity. But then, not so far back they had a team come in a painstakingly restore the Sistine artwork back to it's original state, the way Michelangelo intended it.