AuthorTopic: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread  (Read 11346 times)

Offline Dogmeat

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #10 on: August 21, 2005, 02:28:08 am
An artist's compassion to their work may blind them to valid observations made through critique: Some people are very stubborn about recognizing flaws in their abilities. How would you deal with the problem of conditioning members to the critique-based environment?

Well, i think the best way to lead, is to lead by example, you can talk all you want, but I think first creating a simple critique guide, and always follow it, and give at least a certain ammount of critiques myself per week would be a good first step, we're talking about conditioning here so that's a good first step. The critique guide would be linked, probably in my signature something like "dogmeats simple critique checklist, things to check for" or something like that. ONe thing I was thinking about doing is taking one of my old pieces, that in the past, people have found hard to critique, and launching a critique challenge based on it, then critique peoples critique. Hope this answers your query.

- Dog
Daisuke Nagano Yokoyama

Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #11 on: August 21, 2005, 03:36:16 am
Thanks.. I look forward to some critique guides :)

Offline Mercury Rising

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #12 on: August 21, 2005, 04:11:45 am
I feel you dodged the query Dog with a different answer.  I believe Pep asked how are you going to try and persuade people take the crits they are given.  What good is a nicely written crit if the artist is too afraid to modify their picture even though they can instantly get it back if they slip up?  Is that what you asked Pep or did I just screw myself into drywall?
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Offline Dogmeat

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #13 on: August 21, 2005, 04:22:13 am
Actually I think you can read the question either way, i read it in the sense that pep was referring to the person criticizing the artwork, I thought he meant some of the more seasoned pro artists who were giving critique, either way I still would answer the same way, theres no way to "force" someone to accept critique, but one way to definitely have them consider it, is to present the critique in a clean, organized manner, so a critique checklist would still be a good idea. I think a lot of people get frustrated when they ask for critique and you get someone who has 1 post saying "wow cool, i think you are the best artist ever, and i like your colors", obviously that isn't good critique. It really comes down to the artists ego vs. the critiquer's ego, so the solution is to get rid of the ego's all together. By creating a standardized list that people can kind of follow, but answer each point on the checklist with their opinion is a good place to "start". I'm not saying it is a definite solution, but solutions are never just conjured out of thin air, making something work well, takes time, work, tweaking, and testing. Trial and error, just like learning pixel art.
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Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #14 on: August 21, 2005, 04:40:45 am
BrotherInWar, you understood my question correctly, and I think that dogmeat did a decent job of answering the question. As for nailing the crux of the matter, I think he did a better job of that in his second response based on your reaction. It's best not to force the exchange and evolution of ideas.

So the entropy of stubborn behavior may be best handled by not responding further to the artist? Let the vacuum of no critique move the person to choose engagement?

Offline Mercury Rising

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #15 on: August 21, 2005, 04:50:10 am
I don't think they should be shut out from crits... I'm attempting to brew another idea at the current moment on how to solve as you put it, "the entropy of stubborn behavior."

Honestly I cannot think of a way to solve this.  Shutting the person out from crits would work if it could be done.  What I mean is topics will go by without any crits even without any thing against the artist.  Yet some people can't help themselves and need to crit or don't know they shouldn't crit a branded adamant person.  It would be to difficult to arrange and work with all the members.  If it could be arranged it might be the only solution other than dealing with it.  If they don't want to use the crits they are given to bad for them, only them and their art suffers; not the critters...  (heh, critters... )
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 05:01:00 am by BrotherInWar »
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Offline Dogmeat

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 04:52:48 am
Honestly, if I put the critique out there and the artist doesn't respond to it, that doesn't mean anything to me, I'm not there to show off, and have them praise me on my awesome critique, the critique is for them, and not everyone is as vocal as the next guy, I know, and you also know pep, there are people that lurk in the shadows as guests, just checking out things, learning from us, and when they get enough confidence they join up, and post their "first" piece. Back to my point, I don't think we should "expect" a response from critique, for all we know, they've taken the critique and are trying to figure things out based on it, or maybe, they don't care what a certain person thinks, or they just don't like the critique. Having a checklist though, kind of sets everyone up on the same playing field, Kon could give critique to user A where jumbolayaface jones also gives critique to user A, and user A knows Kon's work, and respects Kon, but has no idea who Jumbolayaface Jones is, regardless though, Kon and Jumbolayaface Jones submit critique in a similar format, yet, two different opinions, or not, who knows. I think it would be easier to read also, people will get used to a "format" and can quickly skim the critique, for the desired output they were looking for. Someone might post a picture of a face, and ask for critique, but what they really care about the most is the eyes, because they were giving them trouble, sure they'll get critique on the whole piece, but maybe they're not ready to change the rest of the stuff till they get the eyes figured out. I can go on and on about situations, so I'll stop, you get the point.

- Dog

PS: plus i want a donut!!
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Offline Peppermint Pig

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #17 on: August 21, 2005, 05:28:41 am
It does not seem appropriate to complain about someone who does not respond to a critique of their work. The critique is for the artist and we cannot judge prematurely whether they benefitted from it or not. They're not obligated to reflect on it. If the critter feels it's a waste of their time, we cannot legislate on that either. A forced critique is inappropriate.

If the artist does not respond to questions about the authenticity of the work, well, that's a whole other matter!

For those who respond, dogmeat, people who are open to critique do not in the same stroke bombast over the work, or of its critiquers. When they do so, that artist is attempting to persuade us to the merits of a work through external and potentially false or unrelated bases. hen confronting an artist who feels compelled to explain the work in great detail, they may be attempting to mask a shortcoming in themselves. If things get to the point of arguement, then it becomes clear that critique is not having a positive impact for that artist.

Offline Dogmeat

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #18 on: August 21, 2005, 04:27:57 pm
Ok, it seems like maybe i've been chosen as the crit rep? I duno, but I've been tossing around an idea in my head for a few days, here is a rough draft from the top of my skull.

What I'm thinking about is a mentoring system, but with a twist. The name of the system would be called the "Dog Pound" , people who want to mentor, will have to submit a sort of statement about themselves, and a description on why they want to mentor, with how much time they can devote to mentoring and so forth. After a mentor is accepted, either by having another person vouch for them on top of moderator/representative approval, or some other system, they will be placed in the dog pound, with some sort of graphical representation, where they shall stay until they are "adopted" by a registered member who has registered to adopt from the dog pound.

Now, for those who are looking for a mentor, will have to do the same, they will have to start a post or reply to one already made for the dog pound, stating why they need a member, what qualities they think they are lacking, what they want to get from the mentorship, etc.. Now, since people wanting a mentor might be newish, and not know a lot of people, they may not need to be vouched for by another registered member, rather, only by a peer mod or mod, once accepted, the apprentice can stroll through the dog pound, and look through the different stats of different dogs ( mentors ) in the pound, and if they find one they would like to adopt, then they would post again stating who they want to adopt, and why they feel the qualities of this person would help them.

Once adopted, the mentor and aprentice will share a time limited term, of 2 weeks or something, after which, the mentor will return to the dog pound to await re-adoption if they wish, or if they are busy and can't devote time to mentoring, they will look as if sleeping in the corner of their cell or something. If a mentor doesn't wish to mentor any longer they won't leave the dog pound, they will be displayed as a dead dog, with legs up in the air or something, put to sleep, where they have a chance later on to be resurrected by our fantastic pound docs.

Both persons involved will have access to a adoption graphic for their mentor, that can be displayed in the signature.

The mentors responsibilities should also have some structure, we had a mentoring system in the old pixelation, and I think it would have gone better if the mentors had a little checklist of things to watch for on their apprentices, watch their posts, show them forum eddiquitte, help them with art of course, etc..

The purpose of this is not only to have some sort of official mentoring system, but to have a successful one that is in a structured manner to avoid chaos. I know some of you are thinking, we don't need a system, user A is mentoring me just fine in private message, etc.. and that's nice and all, but how does that help newer members, or people that are afraid to IM someone asking them for help, and what if your mentor doesn't have enough time for you. I know a lot of you are young so think of it this way, it's the difference between calling your buddy up on the phone to ask him a question about your homework, and getting an answer, or having an actual tutor come to your house and teach you the core fundamentals about that exact same subject and have you UNDERSTAND it.

Not only will this help some people stay around for a while, but it will slowly help streamline a lot of our other issues, and even have some draw to people just visiting the forum.

I'm not saying this is a perfect system that will work perfectly, the planets will align, and there will peace throughout the universe, but it is a good skeleton to think about, and maybe even get some flesh on it later.

- Dog

Heres a quick little strip of some possible status icons, I'm thinking each mentor might be given a template, and they can color their icon how they wish

« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 05:22:18 pm by dogmeat »
Daisuke Nagano Yokoyama

Offline Godslayer

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Re: Dogmeat 05 Campaign Thread

Reply #19 on: August 21, 2005, 08:01:50 pm
<Cheers are heard>

So, do you have a awesome catchphrase I can smack people with?
How long can the floor creak before it loses its voice?