GR#049 - RPG Characters

[MarianFrae]

I've been doing frankens and recolors for years and have been pretty good with it but this past month, I decided it was time to step out of my comfort zone and start spriting from scratch. I've gotten some feedback and suggestions already and a heck of a lot of praise... but, seeing as all those people know and love me, I have to take their praise at half value. So I've decided to come here--to a board that I've been told gives some amazing critiques--because I want my skills to grow and my project to excel.

I am using the Half-Kaizer base for my sprites. http://www.hbgames.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=39088&start=0 I have edited the woman sprite considerably in the waist and hips areas for Iana.
For the most part, I have used as starting references.
I use GIMP and many layers for my spriting.

The first sprite I started is for a character called Iana. I've been having trouble completing her and would love some suggestions as to how I should tackle the last few frames... as well as any tips on how to improve what I've already "completed".
I had no reference--other than my imagination--for her shirt, arm wraps, and quiver. Her hair was a combination of these two hairs which were found in the compilation photo of showkaizer sprites found above.
I'm not entirely sure which of those pants I used as reference for hers. A lot of edits have been made since I began.

The second sprite I started is for a character called Garin. Unless anyone on this site gives me things to correct--which I'm sure they will--his sprite is finished.
His hair was based off of and had no pixelated references. I think I worked on just this hair for a week because I could find no pixelated references... and I'm still happier with the fronts and backs of his hair than I am with the sides.
His pants were based off of a few of the pants in the compilation above. There are quite a few that are similar. I mostly just softened the bulge at the top and darkened it more at the bottom so it looked more like baggy pants being tucked into boots than a really round cuff. The boots were freehanded over the base feet. No reference to be linked.
His scars were just pulled from my imagination.

The third sprite is an add-on to the shirtless Garin. The characters age and change clothes in my game--some of them having over 9 different outfits/age changes. This is Garin's first change.

His jacket and shirt pieces were based off of . I'm having difficulty figuring out how to tackle the side views so any suggestions/reference pics would be greatly appreciated.

[Mush]

it was time to step out of my comfort zone and start spriting from scratch.

I don't think you are stepping out of your comfort zone, nor are you starting from scratch. The only way to really improve your spriting is to get down an dirty and create something from the ground up. Your first sprites probably won't look as good as some of your edits, but after some practice and critique, your skills will definitely improve.

And don't be afraid to post your failures (even if they're not as good as you would like), that's why we're here to help you

----

For the two sprites you posted, they lack in contrast and are pillowshaded which make them look extremely flat.

[MarianFrae]

Well, I guess I mean spriting clothes and hair from scratch and just this much of branching off on my own makes me nervous and a bit sweaty so it's certainly not comfort zone... but I would have to agree that it's still a safety zone.

I like this style for my game so I'm gonna continue with these so far as to get each principal character's sprites and a collection of NPC outfits completed.
Do you think it would be beneficial for me to put production of these on hold until I've done some truly ground up work? Or should I finish this and then refine my skills while the other work on the project is being done so that I can then make edits with my improved ability?

These are the first sprites I've done other than frankens and recolors. Are you referring to when I start with ground up?

Did you miss the last sprite?
Mkay. More contrast between shades. Could you link me to something that will help me figure out what kind of shading I need to do? I've been sent in a lot of different directions with the shading for Iana's shirt. I started off with a lot more dithering and a lot less oval.
Is everything pillow shaded? Is there anything good that I should definitely keep?

[Mush]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood  It seems that you are open to critique which is a very good thing 

Do you think it would be beneficial for me to put production of these on hold until I've done some truly ground up work? Or should I finish this and then refine my skills while the other work on the project is being done so that I can then make edits with my improved ability?

Continuing on with this project can still be beneficial to you, but you should also do other things on the side. Try starting out with simple things like fruit or shoes, anything that can easily be broken down into simple 3d shapes.

Mkay. More contrast between shades. Could you link me to something that will help me figure out what kind of shading I need to do? I've been sent in a lot of different directions with the shading for Iana's shirt. I started off with a lot more dithering and a lot less oval.

Generally you should avoid dithering unless you want a rough texture or are working under extreme color restrictions.

Is everything pillow shaded?

Not everything, but the low contrast makes it hard to tell where the shadows and highlights are.

Here's a tutorial I made a while ago:


And one from pixeljoint (http://www.pixeljoint.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5692):

[MarianFrae]

It's alright. I'm sometimes not entirely clear.

Try starting out with simple things like fruit or shoes, anything that can easily be broken down into simple 3d shapes.

Alright. Is there a size that would be good for me to start with?

Okay. So my problem is that I've chosen a light source directly above instead of slightly to the side and above. Or am I using a light source that's directly above?
Also, one reason I chose the lesser contrast is that I'm trying to go for an artsy feel with everything in this world to distinguish it from the real world. I realize this is probably not the best way to do it but it's the best one I could come up with. Do you have any suggestions?

[Mush]

Once I looked at them a bit closer, I saw that you did shade with an overhead lightsource.

Here's an edit:



-Removed unnecessary colors.
-Highlighted top of shoulders (from an overhead lightsource, the stop planes of the shoulders receive a considerable amount of light)
-Strengthened shadows (underneath collars and shirt)
-Added cloth folds for interest.

I didn't touch the hair so that you could apply what you learn. Think of the head as a sphere: the bottom of the sphere will not receive as much light as the top. Also, try to suggest each strand of hair rather than outline them.


About the size: start small, 64x64 is a good size

[MarianFrae]

That is EPIC.
And I'm not being able to get the strands to actually look like curly strands with the smaller color pallet. I just kinda looks like thick, bushy hair.

[Âme]

I really love these! I think starting your character base from scratch isnt a bad idea. Your already very good with clothes and I doubt the bases will be to hard for you. Also I second adding a bit more contrast. most of your characters are fine but a few are coming off a bit dull and it dosnt have to be some crazy abstract contrast. Iana seems to have abit of a square boyish figure that I think could be inproved. Also I love when the hair has a bit or shine and is defined in sections not by strands not how your two main characters seem to be. are you using a certain tile size for these? If so how big? (I like the size their at, would like to make some sprites of the same size)

Edit: Just thought of this. You should give it an acual shadow. this will help make it look like its on the ground once its in the world. Also IMO it would be a nice touch 

[MarianFrae]

200 x 340 for the full sheet.

I'm glad you like them. ^_^

The square boyish figure is mostly intentional right now. If I gave her any more hip, it would just be one pixel to either side.
Well, Garin's *has* to be defined by strands. When you see hair like his in real life, you see it *as* strands... especially considering how oily his hair is. Bathing only in fish toilet with no soap can do that to your hair.
As for Iana... I don't really know how to do it other than by strand. Could you give me an example and I'll try it out?

I know for sure that I'll use shadow in the real world--but I'm not sure if I'll use it in Magin.

[Elk]

I once started making a tutorial but it doesn't have descriptions yet...



(on white bg)

[MarianFrae]

Thanks, Elk.

[MarianFrae]

Okay... I'm keeping the outlining because it doesn't look like curls if it's not outlined... it looks like hat hair--as evidenced by the hair only version by StaticSails.
That said, I can't figure out how to make this not look flat with the limited color pallet.

EDIT:

I tried editing it off of the original coloring... is this a little closer? At all?

[Nmb910]

There's no actual nudity.

[MarianFrae]

I just wanted to be careful.
Have an actual critique?

[Perihelion]

I'm familiar with the HKCP, and I just want to point out that there's a reason no games have ever been made with it. Drawing tiles for sprites that huge is a tremendous undertaking, especially for the number of tiles the average RPG requires. I'm also honestly not fond of the template from a stylistic POV either. It has the same unattractive balloon-like quality the RMXP RTP has except bigger. I also think it's easier to learn good spriting habits if you start with something smaller, since you'll tend to get bogged down in detail and large numbers of colors at that size unless you know what you're doing.

I really don't recommend you try to make a game with HK sprites unless you already have tiles from somewhere that you can use, but it's your decision. You'd also probably learn more making your own template.

[MarianFrae]

First of all--after much frustration and some intervention by those who love me... I've decided that the hair is staying as it is in the third column, first row of the last pic I posted. I've been working on this guy's HAIR for nearly a month now and am happier with it this way, obviously curly, than I am with it being non-outlined(hat hair) or more rounded(looks straight or flippy). I'm willing to try something different and take critique on anything but his hair. It stays, forevermore, as is.

Perihelion--I realize that the size creates a much greater work load for tiles but... I really prefer the amount of detail they allow the sprites. When I've attempted to add things to the smaller sprites, it has ended up being cluttered... so even if I made my own template, it would be close in size... however, I agree with you about the balloon-like style. Primarily for that reason, I'm considering making my own template.

[Âme]

If you do make your own template (witch I certainly recomend ) make it smaller, even if by only a few pixels, it will be an easier start to learn from.

Perihelion--I realize that the size creates a much greater work load for tiles but... I really prefer the amount of detail they allow the sprites. When I've attempted to add things to the smaller sprites, it has ended up being cluttered... so even if I made my own template, it would be close in size... however, I agree with you about the balloon-like style.

I realize smaller sprites can feel clutered but if you work at it they can help you learn to place more perfect "pixel clusters" and make details even more beutiful. My advice is to work your way up to larger sprites. Start small.They dont have to be like 30 pixels tall or anything, though. you know just smaller than now. happy pixeling!

[heyy13]

Have to run to class but this is the quick edit i did, i hope it's useful. :]

Contrast, watch colour count, make things three dimentional, don't texture at the loss of volume.

[MarianFrae]

I will say again that I am not touching the hair any more. It's too taxing for me to work on it any longer.
Also, something that NONE of you have done with this hair is make it three dimensional CURLS. This is CURLY hair. That means that some strands will be on top of other strands and cast a shadow. I have yet to see that from anyone on this site... seemingly because you're all so incredibly anti-outline. Outline is NOT A BAD THING. I hate hair without outlines. It doesn't look like hair.

So, if you have something to suggest regarding CLOTHING or Iana's hair, please reply... otherwise, don't edit Garin's hair or write a post about it. It will only waste your time.
I greatly appreciate your help and input... but I simply cannot change Garin's hair at this time and be both happy and sane.

[pistachio]

I was going to make a longer post, because the hair was the biggest thing I had a problem with, and I don't seem to be the only one. But you seem pretty angry and reluctant about it, for some reason. That's not to say the hair's the only problem. My main concerns are with banding. There's a heck of a lot of it, compared to the original sprites, and it surely can't be healthy. Edit coming soon, if I can just figure out where that dang light-source is. (Overhead, I presume?)

I'm going to quit talking about the hair now. I'm afraid to see what happens if I keep going...

[Stava]

Hello..
I really love the sprites but I don't think your style matches. When I work on some game that already has developed style, I rather try matching the style then working my own way.. I think you should use those original sprites to make a palette for yourself and work on shading the way it's done originally..
I've made a quick edit:

[pistachio]

Hello..
I really love the sprites but I don't think your style matches. When I work on some game that already has developed style, I rather try matching the style then working my own way.. I think you should use those original sprites to make a palette for yourself and work on shading the way it's done originally..
I've made a quick edit:
[snip]

Wow, Stava, your edit beat mine by a long shot. Probably the best one in this thread to be honest.

As for me, nothing much to say, but (@Marian) I suggest taking what's here in heavy consideration.

[Stava]

Tyvm Pistachio, I'm glad you like it.
I forgot the other character..

[infinitegames]

I just wanted to be careful.
Have an actual critique?

I'm guessing he goes through the forums specifically to look at pixel poon and peen & you disappointed him  

Also, something that NONE of you have done with this hair is make it three dimensional CURLS. This is CURLY hair. That means that some strands will be on top of other strands and cast a shadow. I have yet to see that from anyone on this site... seemingly because you're all so incredibly anti-outline. Outline is NOT A BAD THING. I hate hair without outlines. It doesn't look like hair.

Your hair doesn't really look like hair either 

[Froli]

I did a further re edit of Stava's sprite.

I have to balance out the shape of the hair and change the shadows mostly of her clothes then added some facial details since the sprite is large enough.
There is still too unnecessary colors on the sprite, and it's a hassle when you start doing animations.
If i have to make more changes, i would change her pants and boots because as an elven ranger she has to be quick and nimble..and the lower clothing is not helping  

[switched the quiver]

And finally MarianFrae, you really have to study this one
http://www.derekyu.com/?page_id=221

It's one of the basic stuff you have to learn so the lines and curves you draw are smooth and free from jaggies.

[Stava]

Good job on that edit Froli 

I was trying to get the sprite to match ones he 1st posted.. I think you went off that though, but still good edit 

[Froli]

Yeah it definitely change style lol. I just pulled out the stuff I'm comfortable with and added it on the character.

I also think MarianFrae shouldn't go for complicated stuff, like curls in the hair? stick with some basic clean looking character for now.

[MarianFrae]

Wow. That is fantastic... the only two things I dislike/don't understand is why you turned the baggy pants into tights. O_o They were intentionally baggy... and why the quiver has changed sides. From my experience, quivers normally run along the strap. I'll definitely study that edit and the link you provided.
Also, I think I'm gonna pause work on these characters and make some less complicated first--as has been suggested--so that when I return to these, they will be the best they can be.
Thank you all for your help.

Also, I'm female.