AuthorTopic: [WIP] [Constructive criticism wanted] Mage/wizard attempt II - outline stage  (Read 9604 times)

Offline malkomk

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So here we go again.

It's currently in outline stage. I'm really quite happy with the outlines though  :)
Feel free to edit it and post it here so as to explain things or offer constructive criticism, just please don't use it or your edits of it in any games or anything without asking me first. As usual I would be very happy to recieve constructive criticism.

I'll probably start coloring it and add a spell sometime tomorrow.

Offline Mathias

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This is too small for outlines. Try blocking in your colors instead. Right arm too short.

Offline toaster

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I agree his right arm is to short. I think it should be moved to the right a bit.
I like the pose.  :)

Offline malkomk

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I like the pose.  :)
Thanks!
Colour it. Then it will be easier to critique it. :D
Believe me, I will.
This is too small for outlines. Try blocking in your colors instead. Right arm too short.
It's small because I didn't want to do something big and take ages to finish it. I agree, the right arm does seem a bit short. Posting a update soon.

Offline malkomk

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OK, initial coloring is finished. Constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated! Here we go:

*rips ImageShack advertising off the image link*
Stupid self-promotional image hosters... :P

Offline TheChannel

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Not sure where he is facing (Small picture  :/)  but it sorta looks like he is facing right,  if so his robe slit should be farther right.

Offline pistachio

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Okay. So I tried to interpret what his skeleton might have looked like under all those robes to make sure it was consistent. It didn't seem so to start with but I wanted to check.

Sure enough, it does look a bit off, if not kind of stiff. For example his left arm seems longer than his right and he seems to lean over a bit too much. I think the position of the head is to blame, and also the rotation of the limbs.



Then I tried to correct the parts that were wrong and this is the result. Seems a bit more feminine than I'd like it to, but you probably wouldn't notice under the robes.



Now scaled down, lazily colored, shaded and cleaned up (somewhat), it puts on its robe and wizard hat.



Frankly I'm not sure how you could convey this even smaller. I didn't try yet but I probably will if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

EDIT: Here.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:34:08 am by pistachio »

Offline malkomk

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Nice work pistachio, but this isn't the kind of critique I'm looking for at this stage. I'd rather really have critique about my shading and color choice. Thanks all the same, though, your post was really very interesting and it will probably be useful to me at some future date.

TheChannel: My original attention was for him to be facing straight ahead and I'm still probably going to keep it that way as changing the way he is facing would require major changes to the sprite.

EDIT: I'll be making some kind of face for this sprite tomorrow.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 04:00:42 am by malkomk »

Offline Mush

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Nice work pistachio, but this isn't the kind of critique I'm looking for at this stage. I'd rather really have critique about my shading and color choice. Thanks all the same, though, your post was really very interesting and it will probably be useful to me at some future date.

So you're not looking for contructive critique? Pistachio's edit does address problems with your shading - he adds more contrast and avoids shading/highlighting exclusively against outlines.

Ignoring someone's critique because "it's not what you're looking for" seems a bit silly. If you really want to improve, you need to be able to take in criticism even if it's not what you want to hear.

Offline Demian

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Sorry for the 1 line spam but I feel i have to say it: thanks pistachio, your post was very instructive to me (at least).
^^

Offline Mathias

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Nice work pistachio, but this isn't the kind of critique I'm looking for at this stage. I'd rather really have critique about my shading and color choice. Thanks all the same, though, your post was really very interesting and it will probably be useful to me at some future date.

So you're not looking for contructive critique? Pistachio's edit does address problems with your shading - he adds more contrast and avoids shading/highlighting exclusively against outlines.

Ignoring someone's critique because "it's not what you're looking for" seems a bit silly. If you really want to improve, you need to be able to take in criticism even if it's not what you want to hear.

Agreed. It feels a little pretentious of you and off-putting for others to submit good crit only for it to be filtered out for no logical reason. Are you afraid to improve too quickly or something? Because pistachio's edit is leagues beyond your version, I suspect you can't understand the skill-gap between his creation and yours. And that's actually understandable. One can't progress simply because he wills it. Gotta practice, etc. But don't just ignore it altogether - since, like Mush brings out, it does assess the specific areas you want to improve, it just goes beyond that.

Offline malkomk

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Nice work pistachio, but this isn't the kind of critique I'm looking for at this stage. I'd rather really have critique about my shading and color choice. Thanks all the same, though, your post was really very interesting and it will probably be useful to me at some future date.

So you're not looking for contructive critique? Pistachio's edit does address problems with your shading - he adds more contrast and avoids shading/highlighting exclusively against outlines.

Ignoring someone's critique because "it's not what you're looking for" seems a bit silly. If you really want to improve, you need to be able to take in criticism even if it's not what you want to hear.

Agreed. It feels a little pretentious of you and off-putting for others to submit good crit only for it to be filtered out for no logical reason. Are you afraid to improve too quickly or something? Because pistachio's edit is leagues beyond your version, I suspect you can't understand the skill-gap between his creation and yours. And that's actually understandable. One can't progress simply because he wills it. Gotta practice, etc. But don't just ignore it altogether - since, like Mush brings out, it does assess the specific areas you want to improve, it just goes beyond that.

OK, I'm sorry! Can you all stop sniping at me now? And didn't you notice that I said it would be useful later? As far as I'm concerned this project is mostly finished as I can't add a face. I did *not* ignore it. It was very interesting. I'm sorry. I made a mistake, I guess. I did not just reject it as you noticed, so stop condemning me for it!  >:( >:( >:(

Now for heaven's sake lock this thread before I pull down my images around your ears!

Offline Mathias

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haha, no hard feelings

Offline yaomon17

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I feel the glowing ball will cast more light.  ;D

Offline malkomk

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That's a very interesting edit, yaomon17, but it looks like you just scaled down Pistachio's version. And added a little glowing ball.

While I'm done with the project myself, I would appreciate some criticism on my shading, especially as I'm not too great at shading and I want to get better. I'll certainly practice with more sprites. Is there a really good tutorial that highlights shading?

PS: This forum's emoticons are great!

Offline Greger

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That's a very interesting edit, yaomon17, but it looks like you just scaled down Pistachio's version. And added a little glowing ball.

While I'm done with the project myself, I would appreciate some criticism on my shading, especially as I'm not too great at shading and I want to get better. I'll certainly practice with more sprites. Is there a really good tutorial that highlights shading?

PS: This forum's emoticons are great!

Fix the anatomy issues before you work with the shading, because the shading is going to depend a lot on the anatomy.

Offline StaticSails

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OK, I'm sorry! Can you all stop sniping at me now? And didn't you notice that I said it would be useful later? As far as I'm concerned this project is mostly finished as I can't add a face. I did *not* ignore it. It was very interesting. I'm sorry. I made a mistake, I guess. I did not just reject it as you noticed, so stop condemning me for it!  >:( >:( >:(

With smaller pieces like this you kind of need to deal with some details not being able to make it in. Most of the time they aren't needed though, what will eyes or a mouth add to this piece? Probably nothing. Keep these kinds of things in mind when you pick a style and res.

Also a great way to deal with these "attacks" is to go out of your way to make a huge improvement on your piece. THAT'LL SHOW THEM!

Offline pistachio

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I feel the glowing ball will cast more light.  ;D

Ah, thanks, Yaomon! I was looking for a good way to show this but didn't quite know how. Still that's a pretty cool sprite and an improvement even compared to mine!

Quote from: malkomk
That's a very interesting edit, yaomon17, but it looks like you just scaled down Pistachio's version. And added a little glowing ball.

While I'm done with the project myself, I would appreciate some criticism on my shading, especially as I'm not too great at shading and I want to get better. I'll certainly practice with more sprites. Is there a really good tutorial that highlights shading?

I'm fairly sure he did. But there's no need to give credit, or for anyone to accuse anyone else of stealing as per the moment. The way I see it Yaomon is helping me help you learn how to improve. Actually we're all improving in the process. Sorry if that was a little confusing...

In addition, you shouldn't request for just one aspect of critique for your sprite. Proper anatomy's just as important as proper lighting--so all things should be taken in consideration. Even if you don't like what you get it's best to take it in anyway. Trust me, it'll help.

As for a good tutorial on lighting this one's a classic, and probably my favorite. I learned a lot reading it back in the day. It might seem complicated at first but don't worry, you'll learn. probably.

BRB, going to look for more tuts.

P.S., Maybe you shouldn't lash out at us all like that, even if you aren't really used to this whole "critiquing" thing, which I'm guessing is why.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 02:49:38 am by pistachio »

Offline ErekT

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That's a very interesting edit, yaomon17, but it looks like you just scaled down Pistachio's version. And added a little glowing ball.

Er.. no. If you look closer you'll see he added highlights to show how strong light emmiting from the fireball would illuminate the wizard. There's a point to his edit. You shouldn't put off people's contributions without even considering what they're trying to tell you. After all, they are spending their free time trying to help you get better.

Offline yaomon17

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Erm, maybe we should stop trying to snipe at him.  I think he gets the point.  :D

Offline malkomk

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Erm, maybe we should stop trying to snipe at him.  I think he gets the point.  :D

Believe me, after reading all this, I DO.

Everything was very interesting, thank you all for taking the time to respond. I'm sorry if I put you off.

Thinking further, I like yaomon's edit in principle, not just for the shading but for the ball. With my old 32x32 version it looked like he was shooting light/magic/what-have-you at something while facing forward, but that looked a bit strange because he was shooting it off to the side. This makes perfect sense.

Also a great way to deal with these "attacks" is to go out of your way to make a huge improvement on your piece. THAT'LL SHOW THEM!

You're so right, StaticSails! ;D As for improving my piece, I'll probably make a drawing now (on paper, as I don't have a tablet). I might get to scan it in sometime today, depending on when I find my scanner. It might be hard for me to get the anatomy right, but I'll try. Also I'll probably be using a different pose and intent, perhaps something with the wizard holding his light really high to light something, maybe a cavern or a patch of plains, up.

Offline SimTheDog

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The neck on your version of the sprite is too thin in my opinion. It probably doesn't matter anyway.

Offline malkomk

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The neck on your version of the sprite is too thin in my opinion. It probably doesn't matter anyway.
What? What? A neck? Where? My sprite doesn't have a neck!

Offline Cure

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instead of chatting, you could always post an update when you bump your thread. it's like 10 pixels tall and you've already got two nice edits.

i would give critique but have no idea where you're at right now and the edits basically cover it. I do think that working twice this size might help, starting too large is usually the problem but I think going too small poses its own difficulties for the beginner. that being said, this seems to be one of those cases where "practice sketching daily" is the best advice, the foundations most easily learned in the traditional media seem to be lacking.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 04:34:38 pm by Cure »

Offline malkomk

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Heh. As I said the project is cancelled, but I always like to respond when people say stuff. You should be thanking me for taking the time to respond, not sniping at me for chatting!
As a small status update: I forgot about the drawing yesterday. Maybe today...

EDIT: Since when are members supposed to try to moderate the forums?!?

Offline StaticSails

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instead of chatting, you could always post an update when you bump your thread. it's like 10 pixels tall and you've already got two nice edits.
Agreed
Heh. As I said the project is cancelled, but I always like to respond when people say stuff. You should be thanking me for taking the time to respond, not sniping at me for chatting!
As a small status update: I forgot about the drawing yesterday. Maybe today...

EDIT: Since when are members supposed to try to moderate the forums?!?
I don't think we need to be thanking you for taking the time to respond. You've received some great edits and done nothing with them. You really should have thanked those people with some progress. That's really the best way to thank someone for taking THEIR time. Instead of taking your time to reply to everyone go take some time to work on this piece and post when you've got something. There's no character limit so you can work on that thing for a week then come back and reply to everyone in one post. It's a really efficient way of doing things IMO.
There's only so much other people can do for you. So just ATTEMPT something and take into consideration all the advice you've got. THEN you should post something.

Where I'm from we are expected not just to follow the rules but encourage others to do so. That's something my grandfather taught me at a really young age.
Where did you say the project was canceled?
[/snipe]
@Cure, I got your back bro.

Offline Mathias

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Seems like when a community as orderly as this one strives for a common goal, members and mods alike have the competence to stimulate good behavior and advise each other. The burden shouldn't fall completely on them.

Oh, and I wanted to clarify one thing I said earlier about outlines. It's not that this sprite is too small, period. I just feel it's too small to be using outlines on. Think about it, what's the minimum size you could use outlines to plot out an image? You can only go so small. I feel this sprite's size is below that threshold, that's all. Instead, simply penciling clusters would be better, forget outlines here.

Offline Jad

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malkolmk, I don't think anyone should be required to feel thankful that you take the time to type 'What? What? A neck? Where? My sprite doesn't have a neck.'

Stop feeling sniped at, and just go with the constructive feedback you get.

I generally get annoyed when the members of this forum try to moderate for me, yes, but giving some helpful advice on how to structure your posts and avoid unnecessary bumping doesn't quite enter the zone of 'heavy moderation', don't you think? It's too close to 'general advice', really. A moderator's job is foremost to clean stuff when things get out of bounds, and this is still within. I think the members should be allowed to tip eachother off slightly about forum conduct. But us moderators have the final word.
' _ '