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Messages - Enichan
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General Discussion / Re: Hobby art vs Production art
« on: September 29, 2006, 03:08:08 am »
Just posting quickly to say I'm sorry about lashing out up there. I was having an absolutely dreadful week, so this thread was actually an attempt at at least alleviating some anxiety by telling my peers about it. So I didn't take Helms post all that well, and I said a bunch of stuff I probably shouldn't have. So, I apologize for that.

After that I just left the forum for a while until things got a little bit sunnier for me, and as I'm posting this I guess things are better enough that I felt up to checking again.

Thanks for the responses, everyone, too. They have been helpful.

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General Discussion / Re: Hobby art vs Production art
« on: September 24, 2006, 06:34:23 pm »
Quote
But I've noticed sometimes it can grate a little,

Not to sound like an asshole but, get over it. You should feel happy and honoured people take time out of their lives to sit down and really look at your art and offer you whatever is on their minds about it. I wish for this to be made extremely clear and for all parties to feel the specific weight such a procedure carries with it: people dont *have* to critique you. If they do, if their critique isn't useful to you or anything, that's all second to that they did, and you should be thankful.

It grates because somebody is telling you your art could be better when you think "but it's good, for what it is!" (game art). If you feel that way, I suggest you shouldn't post for critique.
No offense Helm, but if that's what you got out of my post, then maybe I should've worded myself differently. The critiques don't grate, the feeling of awkwardness grates. It doesn't grate because someone is criticizing my work, it grates because I know I'll be ignoring their helpful comments, because I just don't have the kind of time required to make things perfect.

So, yeah, that did sound a bit asshole-ish, because it really wasn't what I meant, so there's really no need for me to get over anything. It grates because someone is trying to help me and I know I'm going to ignore their perfectly valid point due to time constraints, not because someone said my piece wasn't perfect in some way. There's a whole world of difference between those two.

I dunno, I suppose I'll drop it now, since I'm not in the mood to get attacked for something I didn't mean more. But thanks for implying that I'm not trying to improve, that was a nice touch. Oh and implying I'm delusional, that was nice too.

Oh and by the way, several people who've finished art school have told me that the way to improve speed on works is not to keep endlessly refining every picture to make it perfect, it's to do many sketchy things over and over and over and over, until you get faster enough at the basic techniques.

But if game art isn't welcome to be posted here "for fun" or only to fix more obvious flaws on a piece, rather than out of a drive to perfect every single piece, I'll just keep to myself again. Wasn't aware things changed here. Oh, and if that's true, might want to change the "Pixel Art" forum description: Post your artwork for critique or fun.

It's ironic you'd attack me saying I should be THANKFUL for crits, when I am to the degree of feeling guilty when I DON'T follow up on them in the piece I posted.

And now I'm on the defensive, so I'll just leave it at this.

EDIT: This is probably the part where I get attacked for defending myself from a misinformed attack by someone who thinks he can dictate what my meaning was. That's all nice and good, exactly the response I was afraid of all this time, nice to see my fears were justified. Go on and slap the label of "not wanting to improve", "bitchy", "arrogant", "delusional", "only seeking compliments", and "bad at taking crits" on me now. The few people here who actually know me better will know that's all bull.

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Pixel Art / Re: mah character.
« on: September 23, 2006, 10:46:45 pm »
Is this for a platformer? Because if not you might want to either lower the nearer to the viewer foot a pixel, or pull the other one up.

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Archived Activities / Re: Iso Collaboration III: Return of the Grid
« on: September 23, 2006, 08:38:41 pm »
Just wanted to say going through the thread and watching this develop has been really interesting. Great work everyone. ;D

Also, made me learn about the IE copy image PNG palette problem.... thingy, so informative as well!

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General Discussion / Re: Hobby art vs Production art
« on: September 23, 2006, 08:31:34 pm »
This thread really wasn't a specific response to your crits, though. Please don't misunderstand. Also not blaming anyone for critting the way they do.

I just run into this a lot, when people offer mostly valid crits and I feel awkward not knowing what to do with them. Ignoring them outrightly is rude, incorporating them might mess up my workflow, and arguing against them makes people think you're bad at taking crits or rather don't want any at all, which isn't true either; if I made a big "no-no" in a production piece I'd like to have it pointed out.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, maybe I just overthink things too much as I'm prone to. ???

I think I'll take your advice though, and try to cross off "possible crits I won't do anything with" off the list when I post art from now on, letting people know I'm aware that it's not perfect, but that's it's a corner I'm cutting to save time.

Or maybe I just shouldn't feel awkward about it to begin with, but I tend to, because I'm odd like that. :huh:

This has really something that has bugged me for a long time when posting stuff for production, and I'm finally coming out and asking if I'm just crazy, or what. >_>

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Pixel Art / Re: Snazzy little RPG pixel dude
« on: September 23, 2006, 06:14:10 pm »
Hi enichan! This is a very nice piece you made, but I noticed some "small" perspective issues, so i made some fast fixes. I hope you don't mind, at least it will give you some idea for adjustments



I hope this helps :)
I like what you did with the collar on the right side, actually. Trying to get that to look right has been a pain. :y:

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General Discussion / Hobby art vs Production art
« on: September 23, 2006, 05:12:31 pm »
Since I keep bumping my head on this and never feel like commenting on it in the topics where my art is (since then people might accuse me of being a bad-crit-taking-person-thingy) I'm posting this up here for discussion.

As it seems to me there are two types of pixel art.

The one is what you do for fun, endlessly refining until you get the perfect image. Doing stuff that would be excruciating to animate isn't usually much of an issue as you're probably just going for the one still frame. Because you're doing it for yourself making slow progress over time isn't much of an issue either, and even when animating you can always just do whatever you want; as there are no HD/memory/time/animation system requirements.

I don't do that one very often.

The second is what you do for practical ends. An animated sprite for a fighting game, a template for an MMO character, tiles for a game you're making, and that type of thing. Art that's for something, and comes with all the constraints and considerations that go with this. You can't spend a month refining a still frame of a sprite, because that means you might take half a year just to finish the animations that flow out of the still as well. You can't make things as perfect as you want because it usually takes too long and "really good" instead of perfect, or even "good enough!" becomes a priority. You also start using messy tools like rotate, animate things through moving seperate parts and touchups, and all that jaz, just to be faster. Result: a non perfect, messier, but faster result.

The latter is what I do almost exclusively, since I can't seem to get my motivation up unless I'm doing it for something, even imaginary.


Now, it seems to me that often crits are mostly given from the first standpoint, which is totally understandable. After all, the first standpoint actually looks at what could be improved and tells you, even if it's a single misaligned pixel. But I've noticed sometimes it can grate a little, at least on me, to hear things being said that I explicitly did because it was production art, rather than hobby art.

Smoothly flowing hair is awesome, but if rigid anime, gravity defying hair shaves off 10 hours per frame, I'm probably going with that. Same with animations; most games don't have a very complex "reuse" system like fighter games that employ sprites have, and usually a lot more memory and space constraints to boot. So you wind up with less frames, less canvas, and you can't even flop in extra frames from elsewhere because there is no system that deals with that in place for you. Yes that outline is hideous and needs AAing and selout, but sometimes just keeping your outline flat color is just easier and faster. Yadayadayada, things like that.

So um. Not sure what I'm trying to accomplish with this thread, aside from getting discussion going. Maybe I need to start tagging my pics with a "production art disclaimer" that says most crits that would drastically increase workload or be impractical in an actual project setting will likely be ignored, so I won't feel guilty when I ignore crits I can't do anything with, or feel like I'm bad at taking them.

Discuss? :huh:

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Pixel Art / Having a try at outlineless sprite
« on: September 22, 2006, 10:30:37 pm »
I'm still trying to figure out a style so this experimentation is doing me good. I actually quite like this style, might stick with it!

Still:


Idle anim:


This, however, instead of taking about an hour and 15 minutes, took me the better part of the evening to put together.

Progress GIF:


After that I just cut out the several parts of the body, put on seperate layers, named, and shuffled. Sure it's cheap, but it works.

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Pixel Art / Re: Snazzy little RPG pixel dude
« on: September 22, 2006, 03:06:02 am »
Pawige, that's definately too much for my delicate sensibilities. The saturation, it hurts and stings! But I'll keep it where it was.

However, after seeing this image:


I felt the urgent need to BREAK OUT. Break out of the outline, that is. I've always admired that whole semi-outlineless style, and I just can't bloody figure it out. That 1 pixel can do so much for a piece, too. Well, here's the rather sloppy edit I made of the original that has this outlineless style. I don't think it quite works, but  then I don't think I quite know what I'm doing, so that fits. :(

Old - New

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Pixel Art / Re: Snazzy little RPG pixel dude
« on: September 22, 2006, 01:10:31 am »
I suppose I'll go with that then, though I'm still not seeing it. @_@ of course, that's not too odd considering the desaturated version has already gotten too "familiar" to my eye. Updated original post to reflect changes.

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