Pixelation
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mike on February 08, 2010, 08:04:17 am
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%*$% pixeljoint, I hate them and their ass-backward idea of what Pacific time means. How can they be an hour ahead of me?? I live in California!!
If this is disruptive please delete it...I just want to rant to anyone who will listen.
and now for the context
Ok so I learn they have a weekly challenge based on Black and white Character(s) where transparency is required. Now to me that means "Oh so I should be creative with my use of transparency then ok" So I literally spend my entire day trying to come up with this awesome way to use transparency. Finally an idea hits me so I get to work, many many hours later and 2 minutes before 11PM my time which is also pacific time I submitted it. Even though technically I still have an hour left! With in 2 minutes I get a comment saying how I didn't follow the rules and basically that I suck(that's how I read it) Ok so I realize alright I'm a failure with that submission I'll just submit the character only which I had done many many hours before hand. So I submit that one but I guess wherever their pacific time is it was already Monday which means I missed the submission. #@&$ing pissed off beyond belief!! It's not even about winning sigh I just wanted to participate and now I can't even have that.
sorry... Here are the rules btw so if you want to yell at me or say I'm stupid or whatever be my guest.
This week we want you to make an animated sprite of an original character using just black, white and transparency.
Update: Please make sure your entry is a full sprite of your character. This is not a portrait challenge.
Canvas Size - Max 80 x 80.
Colours - Exactly 3. You must only use pure black (#000000), pure white (#ffffff) and transparency.
Transparency - Required.
Animation - Required. Min 4 frames.
I personally was not challenged if we only consider making the character, however the whole animation I did was extremely challenging and took hours.
Here is my first entry
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/vashers/Riverrun_fixed-1.gif)
Here's my second, not that it matters
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/vashers/BW_sprite-2.gif)
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"an original character"
meaning one.
not 'some original characters'
"sprite"
meaning a sprite
not a 'scene' or 'mockup'
and the time that a website ends there contest is up to them, and it's the same every week. It's not their fault you took your time coming up with an idea.
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They do indeed have a nifty live count-down on the site to judge how much time you have left - regardless of timezone.
This isn't our area to judge, but I personally feel your entry didn't break any of the rules *technically* - but maybe the spirit of what they had envisioned...
make an animated sprite of an original character
Yup, you did this plus more. there was no descript restriction for doing more
using just black, white and transparency.
Yup, you did this too
make sure your entry is a full sprite of your character. This is not a portrait challenge.
Your entry is indeed of a full sprite character (plus more) and it certainly is not a portrait either
Canvas Size - Max 80 x 80.
yup
Colours - Exactly 3. You must only use pure black (#000000), pure white (#ffffff) and transparency.
yup
Transparency - Required.
yup
Animation - Required. Min 4 frames.
yup
But in all honesty, I quite like the sprite much better than the completed scene
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Clearly it was stupid to exclude your entry from the competition, but settle down man. Every time I've seen you encounter resistance you fly off the handle, haha. Anyway, in my opinion pixeljoint is over moderated, and I've often seen the mods do silly things because of it. Your situation is a good example.
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The biggest problem to me, is that PJ is inventing rules on pixel art that are used nowhere else, then they get angry at anyone not knowing them by heart.
The word "NPA" is not a term used anywhere else, yet it's so common on PJ that people start using it here, where it makes no sense.
"JPG-ifying" is another non-existant term used when a lossy compression algorithm is used.
In terms of the weekly, there have been so many, that there are specific words and meanings you're supposed to know if you want to enter. In this context, "sprite" has a very specific PJ-weekly-only definition. I'm sure I could make an entry that makes half of the people think it's a sprite and the other half in doubt. Depending on the moderator you get, it would be randomly allowed or not into the contest, etc.
In terms of anywhere else in game design, a portrait is also a sprite. Some tiles are sprites, depending on the platform and programming. For a system like NES, "hardware sprite" is a precisely defined term and you only have 8 on one scanline. If you consider the whole world of game design and pixel art communities, the word "sprite" is very ambiguous though, but the PJ community acts like it's something very defined, based on arbitrary rules defined only by precedence (you only get the meaning if you've been a member for a while).
A study of the rules:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/22521.htm
Does this image contain one or just two sprites? I'd say the PJ community would lean towards two. If the dog is closer to the person and they always move together, it would become very ambiguous.
The moderators would probably say: a sprite is just one "character". Now imagine a fighter that has two floating orbs as a weapon. The orbs rotate around the character and fire lasers. This would definately be only one "sprite". Let's say we change the orbs to two floating birds. Would this still count as one "sprite"? It probably would, tiny birds are probably not "characters" yet. Now where is the line between a girl and her dog being two sprites and a guy and two birds being only one?
The answer is: a moderator would decide it for you. The result is a heated discussion, just like the one we're witnessing in this thread.
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...And all this furor over competitions and rankings, which is exactly what ruined any artistic integrity back in the demoscene era. Besides Pixeljoint's judgment calls (of which Pixelation should not become the usual grounds for discussing) what you can change is your attitude towards competitions. Do you really need competitions to make your 1bit art? Couldn't you just make it for yourself? You don't have to participate in contests if you think the rules are likely to be misinterpreted or unfair or if you have received rude treatment or whatever.
To put it in a different way, now that your art was not included in the competition, did anything happen to it? It's still here and it's pretty cool so congrats on making it, in my own internal competition where the only applicant is you and you can either make art that excites me and makes me want to look at it more or you can make art that I find flat and boring, you have won by making the former kind! I'm sure it's the same for many others that see the piece. So why sweat a rules call?
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I can agree there, you don't need a medal to qualify 'good' art.
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Clearly it was stupid to exclude your entry from the competition, but settle down man. Every time I've seen you encounter resistance you fly off the handle, haha. Anyway, in my opinion pixeljoint is over moderated, and I've often seen the mods do silly things because of it. Your situation is a good example.
It's true and the worst thing about that is I self prophecies that most of the time I guess I have some anger issues, or am not social enough I don't know.
The biggest problem to me, is that PJ is inventing rules on pixel art that are used nowhere else, then they get angry at anyone not knowing them by heart.
The word "NPA" is not a term used anywhere else, yet it's so common on PJ that people start using it here, where it makes no sense.
"JPG-ifying" is another non-existant term used when a lossy compression algorithm is used.
In terms of the weekly, there have been so many, that there are specific words and meanings you're supposed to know if you want to enter. In this context, "sprite" has a very specific PJ-weekly-only definition. I'm sure I could make an entry that makes half of the people think it's a sprite and the other half in doubt. Depending on the moderator you get, it would be randomly allowed or not into the contest, etc.
In terms of anywhere else in game design, a portrait is also a sprite. Some tiles are sprites, depending on the platform and programming. For a system like NES, "hardware sprite" is a precisely defined term and you only have 8 on one scanline. If you consider the whole world of game design and pixel art communities, the word "sprite" is very ambiguous though, but the PJ community acts like it's something very defined, based on arbitrary rules defined only by precedence (you only get the meaning if you've been a member for a while).
A study of the rules:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/22521.htm
Does this image contain one or just two sprites? I'd say the PJ community would lean towards two. If the dog is closer to the person and they always move together, it would become very ambiguous.
The moderators would probably say: a sprite is just one "character". Now imagine a fighter that has two floating orbs as a weapon. The orbs rotate around the character and fire lasers. This would definately be only one "sprite". Let's say we change the orbs to two floating birds. Would this still count as one "sprite"? It probably would, tiny birds are probably not "characters" yet. Now where is the line between a girl and her dog being two sprites and a guy and two birds being only one?
The answer is: a moderator would decide it for you. The result is a heated discussion, just like the one we're witnessing in this thread.
I didn't realize I stumbled upon something that has already had it's fair share of discussion. And yeah where do they draw the line, I'm more into game design than pixel art so when I hear the word "sprite" it can mean lots of things and a lot of times it can also be plural like your example with the fighter and the two floating birds. Also the only thing they explicitly stated you couldn't do was make a portrait, that is the only thing they felt they had to expand upon over the course of a weeks time. I literally started working on mine on the last day I wish I knew sooner but I don't normally check that site.
...And all this furor over competitions and rankings, which is exactly what ruined any artistic integrity back in the demoscene era. Besides Pixeljoint's judgment calls (of which Pixelation should not become the usual grounds for discussing) what you can change is your attitude towards competitions. Do you really need competitions to make your 1bit art? Couldn't you just make it for yourself? You don't have to participate in contests if you think the rules are likely to be misinterpreted or unfair or if you have received rude treatment or whatever.
To put it in a different way, now that your art was not included in the competition, did anything happen to it? It's still here and it's pretty cool so congrats on making it, in my own internal competition where the only applicant is you and you can either make art that excites me and makes me want to look at it more or you can make art that I find flat and boring, you have won by making the former kind! I'm sure it's the same for many others that see the piece. So why sweat a rules call?
That's what I realized late last night. I learned a few new time saving tricks that are gonna help my art out in the future and I'm glad at least I tried. I had fun too but man contests of any kind are extremely stressful. Especially if you don't finish until right before the deadline.
But the main reason I wanted to compete was to gain recognition and have people comment on it and give me their opinions and critique and I want to build my network of friends because I don't have many interested in what I do. And the last reason is because I could use it in a portfolio or on my site(if I ever set one up) and it would have the little medal saying I was good enough to win! :)
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What says if you're good enough is always your own art, not accolades by other people and organisations. I'm sure employers might momentarily be impressed by a medal or two but they'll only hire you if you are 1. talented (check) 2. a hard worker (I don't know) and 3. communicative and sociable (needs work).
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Hey Mike, it's The B.o.b., one of the mods from Pixeljoint. It's not really fun trying to be a diplomat from the "other pixel art" site with the issues, but I guess I have to speak up.(I would rather this was taken up face to face with us directly at Pixeljoint, though in our forum,as we're not here to ruin or step on your free will...ranting on whatever you want is up to you)
- Yes, the rules are a bit cloudy as to what desgnates the definition of a sprite. Remember, challenge winners create challenges and we work with what they give us to make it a bit more globally understood. In your case, it would seem that we failed in that area. The problem here, though, is that when I look at the other challenge submissions, ALL of them were stand alone sprites, so at that point, defining the supposed understood concept of the challenge didn't seem so important at the time. Nobody submitted any scenes, so it was understood that people got the meaning of the competition.
- The main problem here, is that your submission came in late. I saw the original, and thought it was awesome at the time, but it was understood that stand alone sprites/characters were wanted instead(though, again, I'll agree with you, in that the way the rules were stated can be contorted a bit). If the sprite by itself was submitted by itself in time, we would have been able to submit it for you, lickity split. Heck, even if it was submitted a day or two earlier, the mods would have had time to discuss it among ourselves, and possibly allow it. But it wasn't submitted in time(the updated piece), and we don't have the capability of adding challenge submissions into the challenge after the DD, which is posted on the ticking clock on the front page. Only our site creator does.( and that does not denote any type of negativity toward him)
- This is mainly a point to be made to any one participating in the challenge at Pixeljoint: It's just for FUN! There's no need to get caught up in the heat of the moment. The general purpose of our challenges and reward system is just an alt. way to get users active with the site, and get better rounded off with being a good pixel artist by challenging them with activities made to take them out of their comfort zone. Anything otherwise, is absolutely NOT what is trying to be achieved there.
Also, there are plenty of artists there that build strong networking relationships with each other, and companies DO look further than challenge winners, as far as pixel art portfolios go. Don't think you're being screwed out, because you're not. Was just a simple time and technical issue...
Hope this helped somewhat...
Thanks for listening, The B.o.b.
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I appreciate you taking the time to dimplomaticize everything, B.O.B. Good job.
(hey what the heck is that Karma 0/0 stuff? BOB's got +2, Mike has -2, hehe. Was that always there?)
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This is mainly a point to be made to any one participating in the challenge at Pixeljoint: It's just for FUN!
If the challenges aren't meant to be dead serious then maybe the mods should reflect that attitude by not taking their deadlines and rules so seriously either.
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Hey Mike, it's The B.o.b., one of the mods from Pixeljoint. It's not really fun trying to be a diplomat from the "other pixel art" site with the issues, but I guess I have to speak up.(I would rather this was taken up face to face with us directly at Pixeljoint, though in our forum,as we're not here to ruin or step on your free will...ranting on whatever you want is up to you)
- Yes, the rules are a bit cloudy as to what desgnates the definition of a sprite. Remember, challenge winners create challenges and we work with what they give us to make it a bit more globally understood. In your case, it would seem that we failed in that area. The problem here, though, is that when I look at the other challenge submissions, ALL of them were stand alone sprites, so at that point, defining the supposed understood concept of the challenge didn't seem so important at the time. Nobody submitted any scenes, so it was understood that people got the meaning of the competition.
- The main problem here, is that your submission came in late. I saw the original, and thought it was awesome at the time, but it was understood that stand alone sprites/characters were wanted instead(though, again, I'll agree with you, in that the way the rules were stated can be contorted a bit). If the sprite by itself was submitted by itself in time, we would have been able to submit it for you, lickity split. Heck, even if it was submitted a day or two earlier, the mods would have had time to discuss it among ourselves, and possibly allow it. But it wasn't submitted in time(the updated piece), and we don't have the capability of adding challenge submissions into the challenge after the DD, which is posted on the ticking clock on the front page. Only our site creator does.( and that does not denote any type of negativity toward him)
- This is mainly a point to be made to any one participating in the challenge at Pixeljoint: It's just for FUN! There's no need to get caught up in the heat of the moment. The general purpose of our challenges and reward system is just an alt. way to get users active with the site, and get better rounded off with being a good pixel artist by challenging them with activities made to take them out of their comfort zone. Anything otherwise, is absolutely NOT what is trying to be achieved there.
Also, there are plenty of artists there that build strong networking relationships with each other, and companies DO look further than challenge winners, as far as pixel art portfolios go. Don't think you're being screwed out, because you're not. Was just a simple time and technical issue...
Hope this helped somewhat...
Thanks for listening, The B.o.b.
I also appreciate that you took your time to post and explain things to me.
However I feel like if the creator isn't there to sort these situations out it's kinda like a medieval kingdom that's run by the villagers. Isn't there a way that more people could get control of the site so these kinds of problems wouldn't happen again. It all seems highly too automated. And I realized I missed the deadline but were the rules clearly stated I would've submitted my single sprite only ;D
This is mainly a point to be made to any one participating in the challenge at Pixeljoint: It's just for FUN!
If the challenges aren't meant to be dead serious then maybe the mods should reflect that attitude by not taking their deadlines and rules so seriously either.
I agree :y:
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Yeah what JJ Naas said, really.
Also if the mods aren't in control of the server then psycho-logically I can see them over-moderating stuff that doesn't matter as much because they're frustrated and trying to overcompensate.
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If the challenges aren't meant to be dead serious then maybe the mods should reflect that attitude by not taking their deadlines and rules so seriously either.
Once again, we can't change the deadlines, that's automated. I don't see how that even reflects any sort of "seriousness" other than it being purely a technical reason. We just put it out there(quite literally, on the front page with a ticking timer), so all users can see it. The rules are created mainly by challenge winners, and if need be, tweaked by us mods(with their permission of course). We just want to respect that user's rules toward the challenge. If there is an issue during the week of that challenge, sometimes we actually DO ask the challenge creator if it's ok to let that challenge submission slide, or allow it. To be fair, that person earned it, we try to follow his/her initial view of how the challenge rules are ran, rather than handing them a gift, dismantling it without their permission and handing it back to them. Just like in politics, it's never the good things you do that get recognition, but more over the bad things. Human nature, I suppose....
I also appreciate that you took your time to post and explain things to me.
However I feel like if the creator isn't there to sort these situations out it's kinda like a medieval kingdom that's run by the villagers. Isn't there a way that more people could get control of the site so these kinds of problems wouldn't happen again. It all seems highly too automated. And I realized I missed the deadline but were the rules clearly stated I would've submitted my single sprite only ;D
We DO have access to certain things and tools that other users do not. These things help us moderate the site and make sure it's functioning properly, as well as with the general user base. In that aspect, I'm not sure I understand the villagers concept. At any given point, a mod can step down, and another user can fill his shoes. This isn't some figurative monarchy, it's a general community of artists. And every website needs a bit of rules to keep it in check on certain things. I can understand that some views on pixelart differ from site to site, but that's what makes each site stand out! We don't claim to be the definitive of what pixel is; rather, it's just that way the site would rather it be. Please understand this.
If we have something that's TRULY bothersome, we do get in contact with the site creator, and try to make some adjustments. He has and DOES come through for us in those occasions. Besides those strange site issues, it's mostly things that can generally get worked out by us,(otherwise, it's pointless to have moderators, wouldn't you say?).
As for another overcompensation comment, I'm not too sure if that point was made about the way challenges are ran, or just generalizing moderation of the site entirely. It really boils down to the amount of users active on the site. On Pixelation, the volume of users isn't as high, and submission of art isn't as high as well. This makes rules much more easier to pin down, as the general active user base has a firm understanding of them as well, and can easily explain them to newcomers too. This also has lead to what can be percieved to be seen by a newcomer as "a site with elite artists, with harsh criticism", because of it being a very tight knit group(though, I'm glad to see some more lurkers come out of hiding and submitting art....).
Because of this, a user will usually go to another site where he/she feel there are artists more along his or her level. At this point, we get to Pixeljoint. The site is general open to any user willing to submit pixel art, in a gallery mindset; gallery mindset meaning more of a show and tell type thing. Though criticism is still encouraged, some users tend to be a bit over-polite, and avoid any type thinking that they are jerks. And due to this mindset, many newcomers tend to go to Pixeljoint, before they consider Pixelation(mainly going off of user's transitions from one site to another, that I've seen in the past, ever since I've been active on both sites...ie, just my view, not a fact...at least not yet : P) So when these new users come to a "pixel art" site, they're not so keen as to how go about making cleaner pixel art, or pixel art at all. The large userbase also makes it difficult for us to get to each of their questions(though we do get to them eventually, even though most are generally answered by our FAQ page, which hardly anybody ever looks at :) ) And in this setting, there's no doubt that sooner or later something will be misunderstood, or a catch-22 will be found. That's where we come in to try and sort things out to help them understand. Some issues get resolved, and others linger with time.
We try to guide them, with these set of rules we've chosen, in helping them make better art for display of their gallery. I'm all about improvement, and am glad each time I see a user in the weekly showcase, whose gallery showed how much they've improved from past to present. If any user here has any objection to that on the basis that this "competition" ruins any type of artistic integrity, I think that's down right silly.
Finally, let's get one particular thing straight: we're NOT the only site that enforces rules. Not to be combative, but moreso as an example, does not pixelation enforce it's rules during a challenge? Say for example, in 2008, we're people not to be temp. banned if they didn't meet a Secret Santa deadline? When doing the Hex collab, were there not rules to follow in submitting a tile, or else it would be turned back until fixed? Why is this so much different from the rules of Pixeljoint challenges? I guess I am picking on Pixelation a bit, with a greater reasoning for understanding the mindset, even though this thread wasn't brought about by any mod here, nor does it really represent the general mindset of the site.
I just say this because it truly chaps my bum, that even though these 2 sites have co-existed for so long, that I get the feeling there's some type of passive aggressive view over the other, or how things are ran. It's as if we're the butt of some joke, even though we support activity on this site, and post it on our site. I'd just rather not see the relationship between these two sites disintegrate, because of petty views over each other(not specifically pertaining to pixelation, as I'm sure some pixeljoint users feel the same about this site as well).
In either way, more towards Mike, and without sidetracking any longer, I can definitely understand your frustration. To put it plainly, it'd best suit you to submit something a bit earlier, or post it in the pj challenge thread in the forum if you feel the piece in question is questionable per challenge rules so the mods can make a hasty decision, or give you more guidance.(again, you're not the only one this has happened to. Ask an awesome artist by the name of Stickman, who this has happened to about 3 times now. However, he understands the technicality of the site and gets why it happens.) If you don't give us time to help you, than it's much more difficult to give you time to make you're issue work out. I also hope this doesn't have any affect on future submissions to the site, as you're a pretty good pixel artist.
Thanks again, The B.o.b.
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I just say this because it truly chaps my bum, that even though these 2 sites have co-existed for so long, that I get the feeling there's some type of passive aggressive view over the other, or how things are ran
As far as I'm concerned my issues with how Pixeljoint is run were discussed in the past big thread here on NPA and pixel purism etc. I like pixeljoint and visit it daily otherwise. I think a lot of people feel likewise, it's not an issue of passive agression: the site is very usable and very IMPORTANT for the pixel art community online, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have image and functionality problems. I do agree though that I'm not sure is a good idea to talk about your problems over here or our problems over there.
Pixelation has image problems as well (functionality not so much, because its functionality is quite simpler to PJ), probably mostly attributed to myself and Ptoing if anything (the accusation of harshness or elitism) and I often think about how this could be changed, besides that is from us stepping down and new, more 'people-friendly' moderators taking charge. Not that that's out of the question or anything.
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pixel politics
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Pixelation has image problems as well (functionality not so much, because its functionality is quite simpler to PJ), probably mostly attributed to myself and Ptoing if anything (the accusation of harshness or elitism) and I often think about how this could be changed, besides that is from us stepping down and new, more 'people-friendly' moderators taking charge. Not that that's out of the question or anything.
I think the attitudes on Pixelation are perfect now. It is no longer "elitist" or "harsh" as people claim, but they still manage to do a great job teaching people how to improve, which is the reason I think Pixelation is so useful. I haven't been showing a lot of stuff lately, but I couldn't have improved without the hit of reality this place gives.
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I'm the New Guy on the PJ mod squad, and I just wanted to point out some things about the submission and approval process:
- Art is highly subjective.
- All of the rules regarding PixelJoint gallery submission are subjective for that reason.
- When a mod decides whether a piece should be accepted into the gallery or not, they're making a subjective judgment call. Some other mods may disagree with them. Some users
may will disagree with them. This is unavoidable due to points 1 and 2. - If we were completely objective and dogmatic and said, for instance, "ALL WHITE BACKGROUNDS WILL BE REJECTED, PERIOD", then we'd be required to force the creator of this (http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/27294.htm) beautiful piece to completely ruin it or take it elsewhere. Similar edge cases can be found for any of our rules.
- If we didn't have this flexibility, we'd be branded "pixel fascists" even more frequently than we are already.
- One of the tradeoffs for this flexibility is that we have many people highly critical of the moderation. This would be the case no matter who was on the mod team. There will always be users who disagree with some of the decisions in such a subjective process, and there will always be a highly vocal subset of them. In spite of this, it's a good tradeoff, in my opinion. I'll take a few lumps in order to avoid rigid dogmatism.
Just please understand that we have to make these judgment calls dozens of times a day. If each user looks out for his or her own interests and calls our attention to mistakes we may have made with their art, they're thus deputized as regulators of our moderation; the PJ Internal Affairs if you will. All we ask is that you treat us with respect and courtesy, and you'll be treated in kind.
Yes, this means calling us out on our mistakes on our own turf, please ;)
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Actually yeah, I will support this. Mike, or anyone else, next time you have a problem in PJ, post in their forums. Next time someone has a problem with Pixelation, post over here.