Pixelation
Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: Tuna Unleashed on February 08, 2009, 06:36:25 am
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Mostly the animation and anatomy, trying to add more 'bounce' to it. So far its just the run.
Old- (http://www.pixeljoint.com/files/icons/wipwalkhammer.gif)
*New*- (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9096/wipwalkld1.gif)
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(http://i44.tinypic.com/einx3k.gif)
Also in like 2 of the frames his closest leg shrinks.
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if his left/closest leg is at it's extreme pose, all the way to the back of the character (our right), his knee is still bent. My guess is that it doesn't really shrink, but it stretches out there to keep a bend in it.
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Souly, the shaking part is for something I haven't added yet. Basically, when he faces that way, he drags the hammer closer, then uses the slack fro the next step.
Everything else- will do
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4020/wipwalkvo9.gif)
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/235/wipwalkhammerdi9.gif)
edit ptoing//
There is a button called modify (learn to love it)
I know, I just like people to know that I updated.
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Yea but if this were in a game that "shaking" would be stupidly annoying. IMO
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uh... why?
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His far step is 6 frames long, his close step is 5.
Then all of a sudden the character freezes, and is on the ground halted for 7 frames.
So unless the character in game halts on every step, which in it's own would be annoying.
Then while those 7 frames play and the character is moving, he floats like he's on ice, so this walk cycle would not work in a game. :/
(http://i41.tinypic.com/20a3us9.gif)
I got it down to just 5 frames not moving, but this would still matter in a game.
And I also removed a frame from the far leg since it only requires 5 frames to do not 6.
The lines I've placed are where his leg just shrinks, you think it bends, but really it just gets smaller because you're too afraid to draw new frames from scratch it seems.
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he can also run BTW. But I'll fix the shrink thing.
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I really dislike the double shake because it wouldn't happen.
In reality it would only do one bounce due to friction, after the initial bounce it would drag not bounce repeatedly.
His arms would snap back to the bounce only once, and then momentum would cause it to move smoothly because it's weight is going in one direction.
I mean how you have it it looks like he can't even lift the thing so it skips because he has no momentum going on the hammer.
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So should I keep the other shaking besides the hand to show strain?
edit: (http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8501/wipwalkhammerfy6.gif)
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That works much better in my world so yeah! (sorry for the oneliner! BY A MOD OUTRAGEOUS)
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The frame with the highest point on the leg going forward I really dislike.
It morphs and looks all deformed.
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Which leg?
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Hey tunafish, great work. I love the shaky painful straining wobble he does as he walks because it's so expressive, but I agree with souly, it's so novel you'll tire of it quickly and it becomes excessive. I think souly "fixed" it. Maybe you can just slow him down some.
Overall, the old animation just looks like he's being cautious, and the new one acheives your goal of him being under strain/weight.
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One thing you have to think of is it will be a lot less noticeable in-game.
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That's true.
It's easy to forget the isolated-out sprites we see in this forum are just one of many elements displayed on-screen at the same time.
How often does the user character walk like this, does he always have the hammer?
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It doesn't look like anybody's pointed this out yet. Whenever he moves forward while the head is shaking, I noticed something odd about the hammer. It appears that the hammer handle by the hands, look a little like rope or elastic. Maybe add more of the handle during the animation? Or keep the handle straight throughout the animation maybe?
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(http://www.game-designer.org/art/pixelart/edit/wipwalkhammerfy6.gif)
Here's how it should look in game eventually. For those people who don't understand what's going on with the hammer. I find this is not a bad anim, but you need to work on volume preservation in the legs, they do seem to shrink and stuff.
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Mathias- this is if you only press forward, then double-tap is run, and a different button is dash. You always have the hammer though. you would only ever use this while fighting or while being cautious.
xhunterko- don't really understand your meaning
Gil- thanks, and will do.
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(Sorry you forgot about this already. But I had to say something and didn't notice your new thread. My bad.)
Here, this little topic may help. Since I couldn't find a good one on google, I looked here.
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=6177.0
What Souly was trying to do here is slightly the same as what you are. However, whenever the sword guy walks, I want you to pay attention to the sword handle. Notice how it jiggles a little bit? That doesn't look like a stiff, wooden handle does it? Yours does the same thing, only more exaggerated. The handle doesn't look really stiff. Almost as if its part rope or something.
Also, check out souly's black and white edit on the first page. In that sketch, he keeps the sword handle straight and stiff like it should. But in the new colored one, it's still jerking. Hope I explained myself a little clearer.
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Well with the huge hammer on the end it would bend, but even so I still don't see it.
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If you watch the animation closely, when he's pulling the hammer towards him after he's put his foot down it looks more like it's a rope-- and the head of the hammer is a big metal cylinder. Tried to elaborate a little bit on what xhunterko said.
Take a hard look, I think you'll see it. :crazy:
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I honestly can't see it. Can someone like make an edit or something? I have no idea what the problem is.
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Look the animation is trully amazing, but as long I can remember, this guy is supposed to have lighting-dashing powers, powerful jumpings and also, he was able to run
so how would someone like myslef walk so damm slowly with a hammer that I barely can carry if I can just go to the end of the level using my lighting dash powers or jumping around?
and anyway...how are you supposed to jump if you just have problems carry'n this hammer while walking?
This does not make any sense to me my friend...I mean, the animation is awesome it would really be nice to see that that giant hammer is preety damn heavy but in my opinion, your first animation just make it faithfully. I think you are underestimating the perfect animation you did before.
;)
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To be cautious? I dunno. I'll think it up when I get there.
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People overthink this. Why does he carry it slow even though he can jump with it? Cause he's awesome like that.
Games don't need reasons...
Carry on good sir :)
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I like you more every time you post.
But seriously guys, when I make him lift it and carry it around like nothing, its unrealistic. But when i make him drag it around realistically its impractical?
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Just put a rocket booster on the hammer and all problems = solved.
I'm actually not being facetious, it's already over-the-top so why not? :D
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The only reason why you'd have him drag the overweighted hammer around rather than casually carrying it around is that you want to convince the player that it's huge, massive and that it's gonna shake the ground as soon as they use it.
You can go for "superhero" that can carry that massive hammer like a golf club or for a regular hero with something special that let his do deathly blows with the hammer but doesn't change other aspects of his daily life (the hammer is still damn heavy when he's not "invested by a mighty god of revenge" or when he's not turning on the Anti-gravity system of the hammer).
Imho, that doesn't mean that you need to decide why he can do so unless you can come with a gameplay element (e.g. he needs to keep an eye on the power level of that anti-gravity system or the hammer will be useless) that is interesting and might worth a word of explanation. An alternative would be "fine, you've got the hammer, but it is too heavy for you to jump, so you'll have to leave it there, jump, toggle that switch, come back and pick it up" ... and if someone attacks you while you've left it behind ... too bad.
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Ben- As awesome as that would be, I was going for a more "legendary" feel.
Pype bros- that would actually be pretty cool. I'll think about that. It could also work for puzzles (leaving the hammer on a switch) or certain boss fights (fight with honour, no weapons kinda thing)
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(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3531/wipwalkhammerdt6.gif)
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Redid the idle
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3139/wipidlehammerbw3.gif)
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Redid the idle
Pixeling-wise : beware of banding on the hammer ...
Purpose-wise : Do you intend to have this looping, or is it sort of "stop walking" one-shot animation ? I'm unsure about why i'd raise the hammer and then lower it like that if i was him ... Except unless if i'm suddenly feeling like i'm going to need it immediately "A monster ? ... okay, no. It was just a mouse." -- in which case it might be worth having him looking around while he's holding the hammer tighter.
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So in his idle.
His body stretches one pixel high, and his arms shrink.
If he's supposed to be bending his elbows he would drop not rise.
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Pype, yeah, that would look better now that I think of it. I'll probably do that.
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Still have to fix the idle but I cant sprite small stuff today for some reason so instead I redid the mugshot thing.
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8994/wiptitlescreenuv2.png)- old pedophile version
(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)- new shiny version
Tried to go for an Okami/painting-ish style and keep it a lot simpler than the old version. I think I might need another flesh tone for AA but I don't know.
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Something's been bugging me every time I look at this. I think it would do you well to put eyes on the sprites.
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I dunno, I tend to like shrouding the eyes.
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Shrouded eyes are still eyes -tThe shading you have on the head now is not enough, and as though there is no brow ridge in the first place. The black would suit it well, it works in the portrait.
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(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8227/wipidlehammer.gif)
like so?
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As you've been told before, you do not try enough to learn how to draw human beings yet you spend all this time on pixel art techniques.
(http://www.locustleaves.com/mrmr.gif)
First you must learn to draw in the classical sense before you deal with 'okami styles' and the such. Take the edit and the urging as the same thing: pick up a book or online if you will, that will explain the human body and drawing and volumes instead of making variations of the same errors perpetually.
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(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)
better?
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Look in a mirror and compare your own face to your drawing. Pay attention to things like how far down your eyes are, where your nose ends, where the top and bottom of your ears rest in relation to your facial features. There are a multitude of issues that can be resolved if you just use some real life references. It's extremely difficult to draw something so complex as a face without such knowledge.
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(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)
better?
No, it looks the same. Where does the neck connect with the head? Where does the ear stand on the side of the head? How do nostrils work? Where does the mouth stay in relation to the jaw? How do eyes work? What are typical male hairlines? How do I shade the volumes of the cheeks?These are questions you need to find answers for by reaching for reference and systematic learning.
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Helm that was quite possibly the most useful thing I've seen all week. Thank you very much for that animation!
Anyways, the points everyone has given so far are probably the best advice you're gonna get. Figure out how a face works before attempting to stylize it!
Sprite looks better, though :)
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Tuna: Just wanted to point out that this portrait indeed is a step in the right direction, it seems that your subconscious is getting better at doing things the right way. Angularity is replaced with more symmetry and coherent shapes, which is good.
As helm says, though, study FACE! You need to learn more about FACE
(:
(http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/endisaster/mrmredit.gif)
Also this is just me messing around with helm's edit in order to clarify that what he means is not that the result you should be getting is the face he drew, but rather that's how much a 'realistic' face differs in construction from the one you drew!
What I did was basically just work from helm's edit trying to find that style that you were looking for, just to further prove the point that knowledge about proportions, anatomy and construction is paramount! Get stuff right before you start playing around with it! Learn the rules before you break them! Yadda yadda!
It looks like fucking akuma though. I might have to do another edit, heh.
I'm not gonna say you have to give up pixel art and come back only when you can draw a face on paper, but PLEASE try to do some basic facial construction on this guy and go from there, showing us the process, so we can help you get stuff right WHERE and WHEN it really MATTERS.
Good luck! : D
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(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f230/ben2theedge/squint.png)
Clint Eastwood patented badass squinting will give you the same attitude you're looking for but without contrived lighting.
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Thanks to everyone for all the edits and stuff, for some reason Jad's really reminds me of Akuma. I'll try and get it to work.
But what do you mean by contrived lighting?
Edit: haha, just noticed he actually said it looks like akuma.
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By contrived lighting I mean having shadows where no shadows ought to be, just to achieve a certain effect. It's okay as an artist to do that in controlled amounts - half the fun of drawing is being able to manipulate stuff in ways a photographer can't. But you don't want to incorporate it into the actual character design or you'll find yourself being *forced* to use fake lighting and shadows whether you want to or not. And that's never good. If your character design requires having a shadow over a certain part of his face at all times, you'll constantly have to manipulate the light around him in any scene he's in, OR you'll have a weird fake-looking shadow that's horribly out of place, since it's not being produced by a light but simply a dark spot attached to his face.
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There's more than one way to shroud eyes my friend... *maniacal laughter*
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There's more than one way to shroud eyes my friend... *maniacal laughter*
Great, go use one of those and then come back with some kind of nice edit!
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Actually the point of that was that he said that when incorporating contrived lighting into a character design its often forced and makes no sense, so in other situations he might have his arm over his eyes to block the sun, or have the shoulder of a baddie get in the way.
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D: While that may be, it makes no sense to avoid eyes in a portrait like that. You have never put eyes on anything I've seen you do. Either it's a coincidence or you don't know how, but eyes are very important parts of the face. They convey so much emotion and feeling. Shrouding them is an effect, and it can have its uses, but on this character his sprite looks very clearly like a greaser and there isn't much "evil" or hidden about him in any way. The portrait does not reflect the character. You may think it's adding character but it's really taking it away, sadly. Helm's anatomical edit has much more character, aside from being solidly constructed. Can you see how much the eyes add? They make him weary, yet determined, and let the player connect with him in some way.
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(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8227/wipidlehammer.gif)
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7814/wipidle.gif)
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1147/wipwalkhammer.gif)
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9540/wipjump.gif)
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8451/wiphurthammer.gif)
Made some touch-ups, gonna do the portrait later.
Edit: okay I actually did some work on the portrait then forgot, then remembered, then did more.
(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)
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(http://www.locustleaves.com/VD.png)
Sorry for Van Damming but he's the closest angle I could find on short notice. I would suggest you try to look at this and sketch it a lot of times until you realize what the shapes of the face are and the distances between them. This will not be enough generally, but it will be enough to help you with your portrait. As long as you just nitpick from the critique you get and do not plunge off the deep end with learning how to draw, you will progress very slowly. The portrait is better now than it was before but it still needs a lot of love.
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For the people saying the animation is not practical, didn't most of you tell him to make it look like the hammer is heavy? So when he makes it less heavy you guys say its unrealistic and yet when he makes it heavy you say its impractical. Make up your minds you are confusing the poor boy. Personally Tuna,
when I look at your walk I think more of a lock on type thing(though that doesn't work well in a 2D game) I'm on the side of the fence that thinks you should make it practical and less realistic. If you are going to have dashing, keep the run, scrap the walk unless it serves a very noticeable purpose.
Quick question, what program do you use to animate?
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Graphicsgale, and I have how it will work worked out. When holding the hammer you walk like that and can dash. If you drop the hammer you run faster and can no longer dash.
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Does it dematerialize like the keyblade? You give a little something for doing it one way but you also take something away. I like that idea, good call! See if you can put some kind of limit on the dashing though, otherwise I would never drop the hammer and just dash around.
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I don't agree that the eyes need to forced on the character. Maybe if the portrait is going to be as big as it is now, then yeah maybe, but look at BlackThorne a.k.a. Helm :) He doesn't have eyes either! And man is that dude some serious badass!
(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8296/102495290500.gif)
And I second Mike, I think the hammer should be practical. The walk animation as it is now fits to something like dragging an object. But if the hero is going to swing that ginormous hammer, then he shouldn't have problem carrying it around. I think it looks just stupid that he first drags it like it weighs 1000tons and then swings it like a feather-duster. :D
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Okay, this took a while.
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9289/wipwalk.gif)
Obviously still p. messy but I'm getting to that. Just want to make sure there's no gaping flaws in the anim first.
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Does he really have to be 'switching lanes' like that? It looks a little odd, and may cause problems. Oh well, though, I guess I'll wait until the cleaned up version though.
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"switiching lanes"?
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He's moving from the foreground to the background when he runs. Very disconcerting and not really practical in a side view game. I suggest you work on a more traditional run before you try adding things like a z axis to them.
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Sorry for my bad terminology..
I mean the way he is landing a little above (or, depending on the perspective, to his left) on his second jump. (Or his first jump? depending on how you look at it again.. Don't have a program which let's me see the frames.) But either way he is making two jumps that aren't landing on the same.. axis? I don't think 'plane' is the right word to use.. Might help if I knew the perspective of the game.
Oh and sorry for saying jumps, but I can not tell, is it meant to be a jump/leap or a run?
*Sigh* I'm tired.. excuse me for a brilliantly awful post.
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Oh, I didn't notice that. k.
Edit: (http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9289/wipwalk.gif)
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Dude, head is flickering forwards and backwards in a tempo that only can happen to extremely light things. Heavy things like heads are affected much by gravity and thus move in smooth curves, generally! Try to make it so that stuff doesn't flicker and stutter in the animation O:
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Would you mind pointing out when it does that.
Edit: haven't fixed the head thing yet, but I just noticed one step has two extra frames.
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9289/wipwalk.gif)
Edit2: think I fixed it along with some other issues.
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9289/wipwalk.gif)
*sigh*Edit3: Made him more proportionately accurate to his other poses.
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4345/wipwalkv.gif)
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Okay screw it I'm posting.
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7264/wipdashhammer.gif)
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4345/wipwalkv.gif)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9540/wipjump.gif)
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Your so afraid to re-draw your frames I think.
I dunno buut to be honest I think the character looks better in the falling out of the air animation then he looksin general.
He seems more proportioned in the fall frame.
The zap animation is cool though.
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I'm not going to completely redraw it to fix minor issues. But I'd say you're saying to make the thighs bigger?
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(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu244/MisterBones/hammerman.png)
Well I'm sorry but it's not my fault you decided to animate before even refining your character. :-\
I just think your pixel work is sloppy tbh, which leads to sloppy limb stretching animations, that contain the right motion but lack the proper mechanics.
Your guy running lands with both feet together, which would never happen in a run cycle, his leg should bend and stay up off the ground until it lands to pull him forward.
His right arm goes so far forward yet his left arm is like gimped and just bends outward.
Even when it goes back it lacks the same movement shown in his right arm.
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Before refining my character? Huh, out of anything I've made I would say that applies the least to this guy. Did you even see the old thread? 90% of it was refining him.
(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1202/hammerguyqh4.png) that was the original.
Now I'm not saying it can't get better or anything, just that you can't say it isn't refined. Tbh I don't really like most of the upper body edits, I'll work on the legs and the run cycle though.
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Refining has stages
You start with a concept and work your way to something good.
Doesn't matter where it starts you eventually want a visually pleasing piece.
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu244/MisterBones/hammerman.png)
Half of your guys right bicept reads as a shoulder, the square white pixels, if this is supposed to be the shoulder it's too low and that'd make his arms too small.
I think his left shoulder is too far out.
Your character doesn't have a groin area at all.
And I don't get why you wouldn't like the upper body yours is messy and block jaggy pixels, I'm to assume that you would eventually apply proper AA where needed.
Look how messy your arm is, I see tons of bridging of colors where a color lines up with another shade, it just looks sloppy to me.
I can't clearly see any volumes in the arm at 1x zoom.
Just kind of looks like a blur of colors.
Looking at some of these frames and they don't even look feasible to be in such a position.
He looks like such a gimp seriously, his arm streches and bends in such ways because you're afraid to draw each frame singly without the other there as backup.
I wont lie I do the same thing a lot when I'm lazy, but it leads to a bad animation I think.
His back arm doesn't seem to move at all.
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu244/MisterBones/runnn.png)
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Refining has stages
You start with a concept and work your way to something good.
Doesn't matter where it starts you eventually want a visually pleasing piece.
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu244/MisterBones/hammerman.png)
Okay, I'll go in depth. First off, the frame of mine you have there is missing a pixel on his hair, making it look weird. Second, yours' face looks too chubby, like he's blowing a bubble in an old cartoon. Third, the skin is too bright. I made it darker on purpose. The legs do look way better though.
Half of your guys right bicep reads as a shoulder, the square white pixels, if this is supposed to be the shoulder it's too low and that'd make his arms too small.
I don't know about you but my shoulder does go down from my neck. Last I checked most people's do. The white part of his sleeve is partially his shoulder, with a bit of upper arm BTW.
I think his left shoulder is too far out.
that was to make him look more muscular, not necessarily completely realistic I know, but it was more of a stylistic choice and I liked the way it turned out.
Your character doesn't have a groin area at all.
As I said I'm reworking the legs
And I don't get why you wouldn't like the upper body yours is messy and block jaggy pixels, I'm to assume that you would eventually apply proper AA where needed.
I really don't see this one at all.
Look how messy your arm is, I see tons of bridging of colors where a color lines up with another shade, it just looks sloppy to me.
I can't clearly see any volumes in the arm at 1x zoom.
Just kind of looks like a blur of colors.
yeah... I actually did mess this up. I'll fix it.
Looking at some of these frames and they don't even look feasible to be in such a position.
He looks like such a gimp seriously, his arm streches and bends in such ways because you're afraid to draw each frame singly without the other there as backup.
I wont lie I do the same thing a lot when I'm lazy, but it leads to a bad animation I think.
His back arm doesn't seem to move at all.
As I said, I'm still working on the run.
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(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7814/wipidle.gif)(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8227/wipidlehammer.gif)(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1147/wipwalkhammer.gif)(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9540/wipjump.gif)(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8451/wiphurthammer.gif)(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9289/wipwalk.gif)(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)
Major updates to all and to all a good night.
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It's cool to see the culmination of your hard work, brah. Rather than clutter this thread with meaningless commendation I'll issue one crit - the dark blue AA on the inside of the hammer just makes the line look thicker and not smoothed. Also, yer portrait looks cool overall but is still a little wonked up - nose is smashed flat, what's up with the eyes?, ear looks too small, some texture in the hair would rock.
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I get all that except the nose issue, would you mind either making an edit or explaining in greater depth?
Edit; Oh, and he's squinting. Weird, I can't get it right in this but I can draw it fine on paper.
Edit2: okay, I think its all fixed.
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8451/wiphurthammer.gif)(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1147/wipwalkhammer.gif)-still not quite done ATM (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8227/wipidlehammer.gif)(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)
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Previous issues with portrait still stand, though it's getting better. Neck doesn't connect to back of the head right, ear is small and misplaced, nose is invented, nosetrils especially, hairline problems. Facial characteristics are still symbols and not geometric shapes. You've been given critique to fix all these issues so I won't repeat it here, when you're ready to commit to drastic changes and study to become better, it's all written here.
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You posted that while I was editing my previous post so a couple things are better. But I have been studying and stuff, it just takes time.
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Best of luck to you but from what I see in this thread you post something, people give you hard ways to make it much better and easy ways to make it a little better, and you go for the easy ways only. Perhaps that's good because you're making a videogame and this way you stand a chance to finish it, though.
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I'm seriously not trying to. I'll check through the thread again.
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I think what would be good for you is to
1. Not work on all that stuff in parallel but focus on each one only.
2. Not to post updates every 5 minutes. Put in as much effort as you can before showing it here.
3. Not be afraid to completely trash something that isn't working and starting from the top.
Stuff that has been mentioned many times here, like the totally noodly anatomy of main character or the difficulties with the face you've rolled along with without actually having delt with it. I can understand that you might not see so much what the people critiquing you might be saying, but in order to see then you might need to stop liking your own stuff as much as I suspect you like it.
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1. Unfortunately I would probably have the same productivity but with month long gaps of doing nothing instead of working on something else. Juggling projects gives me variety and keeps me from getting bored.
2. kk
3. funny you should mention that, (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/561/wiptitlescreen2.png) is that a step in the right direction?
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I dont have time to write a lengthy critique at the moment, but I did make an edit of your run cycle.
yours:
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9289/wipwalk.gif)
mine:
(http://danfessler.com/dump/wipwalk.gif)
I didn't have much time to spend on it, and I mostly just moved the existing pieces around. The point I want to get across is your motion paths. They're erratic and jolty. Most likely this is caused from you only relying on the previous and next frame only to determine how you should draw the current one. In reality, you should keep in mind the frames even *before* and *After* the adjacent ones. This will give you a nice idea of the curve of motion rather than a straight line of motion.
Bacca man has a great post about keeping motion paths fluid...
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=2913.msg36415#msg36415
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=5201.msg62325#msg62325
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Oh wow, thats exactly how I wanted it to look. I'll get on that then.
Edit: (http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9289/wipwalk.gif) I'll definitely be referring to those posts you linked to for later reference.
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3. funny you should mention that, (http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/561/wiptitlescreen2.png) is that a step in the right direction?
When you look at it, does it correspond to the construction of a human being to you? Don't look at it as a piece of art, think of it as a 3d wireframe. Does the neck connect anywhere reasonable? What are these lines on the neck, what muscles do they signify? Have you checked photos of people and anatomical charts or are you improvising your scheme? Is a mouth a line or is it made by flabs of skin, muscle and fat? Where is the skull (the actual bony part) in this construction? If you were to draw a skull underneath, would it look ok? Where does the tendon tissue lay on the skull?
(http://www.human-anatomy.net/images/skull_anatomy/skull1.gif) (http://www.human-anatomy.net/images/skull_anatomy/skull3.gif)
this too (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Head_ap_anatomy.jpg)
here (http://www.student.ahc.umn.edu/dental/coursearchives/2yr_Fall/DENT5102/Study%20Aids/Exam%201%20review/Lat-ceph-anatomy.jpg)
urp! (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Head_face_detail_lateral.jpg)
Are you measuring the distances between facial characteristics? There are ratios between where a nose is and where a mouth is and where an eye is and so on, are you using any sort of schema for that?
And besides the anatomical level, what are the planes of the face here? What is the construction? Is it flat?
look (http://philippefaraut.com/images/tools/planes.jpg)
more (http://cube.phlatt.net/home/spiraloid/tmp/base_head.jpg)
it never ends (http://www.trossenrobotics.com/images/blogposts/2007/saira.mask.jpg)
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(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/561/wiptitlescreen2.png)
better? Oh, and I have a couple points.
First of all, this isn't supposed to be 100% anatomically accurate, its supposed to be kind of cartoony. more like a comic book I guess. Second, I have never seen a face anything like the "look" one
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'It's supposed to be cartoony'
We've all heard it a million times, although you seem to be less rejecting of critique than most who say that. Despite whether or not it's meant to be 'cartoony', you're going to have to learn and follow some basic anatomy rules. Most cartoons have a basis on anatomy, and are simply exaggerations of the anatomy, within reason. I can almost guarantee you that pretty much all professionals have a proper understanding of anatomy and apply it when drawing their cartoons and comics. And even if they didn't, it will still help you in this case. Sorry for ranting, I realize you might have just been throwing it out there.
The 'look' link that helm posted might not be a real face, but it is, like I stated above, an exaggeration of what's real. The forms have all been diminished to flat, angular planes, and is a great of example of such a figure, demonstrating those planes. Planes which a real, human face loosely follows, and is used in the construction of.
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I wasn't saying I was going to ignore anatomy altogether, just that I wouldn't be doing it to the most precise detail, adding lips, having every curve, line muscle, etc...
Edit: Okay, I'm going to work on the old one and try and get it right. I can't replicate the expression or overall feel again.
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Yeah, Doctor D, I love that pic (http://philippefaraut.com/images/tools/planes.jpg) as well posted by helm just now. It seems to be more like what tuna is after, too - angular exaggerated stylized, not photoreal human faces, but rather a comicy illustrative style. But his portrait seems to have just gotten worse, reminding me more of a toothless hillbilly now, like this dude (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2040/2078248562_1d7db751a2.jpg), which you've probably seen before. The face is flat, sucked in, somehwta imploded, doesn't look strong but weak instead, not like I'd want my avatar in a game to look like -YET- I love the style of it, the chiseled features, bold edges, bold black lines, very simple and nice.
So then, the degree to which my edit departs from what tuna has come up with so far is almost comical, but I still favor mine over his, I just wish it was not a different style. I know that I could re-style my version to match tuna's, though. But won't unless tuna really feels he wants me to. I know he can manage.
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7159/pixeledithammermanportr.gif)
High five helm, that reference was golden. Hope the animation isn't too annoying. Superimposing multiple versions is the best way to show a progression though, so bare with me - next best thing would hve been a user-controlled flash with next/back buttons to toggle through frames.
He looks kinds like No Doubt's bassist, not sure what his ethnicity is after my edit, whereas tuna's seems ethnic neutral to an extent, which is good I think. Slight edit to palette with an added shade for the whites of the eyes. Cleaned up facial features, mainly inflating the face back to a more masculine form, chin and jaw were especially suffering. Rendered light in a more logical way. The hair treatment sux, I like tuna's latest much better. Whole thing very rough and unrefined.
I think tuna's latest portrait implies sadness or disgust, like a scolded child sorta - eyes shut, looking down, eye sockets dark as if to indicate negative emotion. Again the chiselyness is cool. Now, if only you could couple it with anat that doesn't bug me so much. Also, you need to apply this chiselyness to all of it, not just part. Left nostril is bigger than ball of nose. Mouth bugs me, I see what you're doing but it reads as chin defiition, not a frowny mouth. Neck too thick for such a dwarfed head, the lines defining the sternocleidomastoids read as wrinkles or folds in skin like an old man. Ear is much better but catches too much light/is distracting. Overall though, it seems to match the sprite well.
Honestly tuna, despite the sea of crit, only a few things are really needed to fix this.
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You know, I've learned something as of late, cartoons are probably harder than drawing realistically because you need to know what to exaggerate and at what level. The point isn't to draw every detail but if you want your piece to be more pleasing to the eye, you'll follow our advice.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee166/manlygaming/face_edit.png?t=1238205846)
I've done an edit, please try and study it, I hope it'll help, some general guidelines/advice you might wanna know: Ear starts at eyebrow and ends at end of nose, eyes are in middle of face, the harsher the light source the more real your person will look oh and uh, mouth and jaw-line should line up.
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Mathias- you might've missed it but I edited my post to say I was ditching the redo and was going to stick with editing the old one due to me not being able to recapture the feel of the older one. But I'll try and take some stuff from both edits.
Edit: lots of stuff changed. (http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4862/wiptitlescreen.png)
Edit2: not really worth a new post but felt like getting this up (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
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Screw that, I say steal bengoshia's and run!
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I don't think this sort of handholding will help you directly. I use it to try to get you to understand that to make the right choices, you need foundation.
(http://www.locustleaves.com/grr.gif)
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I know that it would generally be faster and better to redo it all but as I said I can't seem to get the feel of the piece again. But that aside, I was saving that and am now very intimidated by the filename. But I've been wondering what you meant by the neck connecting. I thought you meant where it connects to the head, not the body.
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What is a feel of a piece? Destroy your art as often as you have to become a better artist. I wish you occupied a physical space close to me so I could take your pictures from your desk and run away cackling manically. They're not as important as artifacts as improvement is. The feel, any feel, will come. Fundamentals will not just 'come', you have to work for them. That's my opinion. Others might tell you 'forget what they're bitching about in that forum, everything looks awesome, I want to play it now, make it now, woo!'. You judge which voice rings truer.
Don't take the filename seriously, it's just somewhat facepalmy to see you not get what the critique you're being offered is about. As long as you're not doing it on purpose, and you try to understand what people are taking time out of their lives to explain to you, it's alright.
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(http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
reworked the crap out of it.
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it's certainly better, it's certainly fancier, but the back of the neck is still weird (necks are not triangles!!) and that ear, gosh that ear.
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haha. I'm awful at ears. I definitely need to figure them out. But yeah, I was looking at a pic of clint eastwood because of Ben2theedge's post and I got this wave of inspiration. Anyway, I'm going to clean it up. Fixed what you pointed out BTW.
edit:(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
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I'm feelin' that, tuna. The trendwhore blue light and highlights give it the pizazz it needed. Now just get rid of that hairlip and I think you can move on to the next thing.
I love the group effort here.
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Hairlip? Mind elaborating?
Edit: oh, you mean this?
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5528/wiptitlescreenx.gif)
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(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
I think I'm done.
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You have done great job, but dont be so lazy because you wont become better, you will only become better if you aim for perfection, even if its impossible, if you stay lazy than you will never get better, you need to work real hard and critique is very good thing, you shouldnt take it personally people just express their opinion, they want to help you so you repair flaws wich you couldnt see or give suggestions how to make it better, I know that it may sometimes be demotivating and demoralizing and sometimes a small sentence as its good can motivate you back to work...you are doing great, but put more effort to it.
For some critique, it looks good but shading on his forehead is kinda strange, plus his cheekbone has almost no shading and you could try to make his hair more defined.
Otherwise good job.
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Not to sound arrogant or anything, but what do you mean by lazy? When did I take anything personally? Anyway, small update, cleaned stuff up, added some details, haven't gotten to what bonehead said.
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
Also, with the forehead shading, I'm getting conflicted messages. Some people told me to make it like this, now you're telling me not to.
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Just a note about the ambient light, and it's pretty obvious, but I'll say it anyway.
It looks nice, but be sure that you don't have any backgrounds or scenes without that light, or don't use it there, if you're planning on using this for a game. For instance, if he is in a deep cave filled with lava, and flaming torches, I don't think the light would seem appropriate.
Just throwing that out there, hope you got it covered. Keep up the good work, though.
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I know, someone mentioned that already. It'll only be used once so its not a problem. :y:
anyhoo, (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
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Man fast replies :o
With the forehead shading I meant make it a itsy bitsy shorter and with lazy I meant to do the whole thing again if it becomes bad.
Looking better.
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Shorter? BTW I don't see the problem with fixing an issue instead of starting the piece over. I might do that with a drastic issue or if I was just doing it for practice alone, but not always. Otherwise spriting would take a whole lot longer.
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You added shaped lines on the cheek and forehead on the side that just repeat what the black lines before were doing, this seems to suggest you're not understanding what purpose they served in the first place.
Two highlights one on brow and one higher mean the forehead slopes towards a higher lip... which it doesn't. You're putting highlights without thinking a rational reason why, I think.
The blue ambient should hit the side of the nose, definitely.
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(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8964/wiptitlescreenw.gif)
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Hairlip? Mind elaborating?
Edit: oh, you mean this?
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5528/wiptitlescreenx.gif)
A hairlip is a birth defect that causes the upper lip to be deformed. With the indention below the nose being so defined and connecting to the mouth, it looks like he has no upper lip. This is my biggest problem with the pic now and it's a small one, so that great. Great job. Oh, and it's time to clean the hair up now, too much detail and stray pixels.
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(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8245/wiptitlescreenq.gif)?
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(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1843/hammerguy.png)
I hope this helps you. Just trying to rectify anatomy and stuff...
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Chris... uhmm, that's kind of scary, to be honest.
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I'm pretty late when I say this, but...
The ambient light should be on the hair too. And I'm pretty sure the skin wouldn't have multiple highlights like that, even if there are multiple lights in the room. I mean, it would effect it, but it wouldn't look like that.
Another thing about the blue; blend it with the skin tone.
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->TU: Ignore the stupid expression on his face ;)
I would like you to notice the cheekbone and the frowning more though. As well as the hairline. I changed the expression because the last one made him look uncomfortable (well, the lip area looked quite scrunched up and incorrect, especially those lines that mark the sides of the mouth).
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I don't know, that cheekbone looks TOO defined, like he's biting his cheek really hard. I'll try and fix all the other stuff (yours too Gleefk)
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Just do a little jag for the cheekbone. It'll do the job. Two strokes.
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I was talking about the big round crease you have, not the little one.
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Oops, missed a word out, I meant, "Just do a little jag..."
The mouth area doesn't look right, it's not a really credible expression.
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I think I just need to widen the mouth, basing it off my own expressions it should give me exactly what I want. just a min.
Edit: fixed the issues you guys pointed out except the graduation between the backlight and skin. I tried and it seemed redundant.
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
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I would edit my last post but this is something different altogether so eh...
Anyway, someone pointed out that it still looks like he's holding the hammer with his jump so...
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9164/wipjumpn.gif)
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That arm movement on the jump isn't convincing at all.
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Why is he looking down?? :'(
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Because he's falling.
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That arm movement on the jump isn't convincing at all.
Remember he's supposed to hold a hammer (or at least that;'d make more sense)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Monsoon2D/mullet.gif)
I went a little overboard with this edit, but I'm pretty sure there's an anatomy lesson in there somewhere.
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Realism is great, but I think Tuna's got it to a point where it's a safe compromise between being completely anatomically correct and stylized. Feel free to disagree though~
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I disagree :V
I think Rawsushi's is much more accurate and resembles Tuna's character more. The hair also makes more sense, along with the ambient light. While they're both good, I prefer Rawsushi's take on it. Feel free to disagree with me too~
Also I'd like to say nice work so far Tuna. You're definitely improving, and taking people's opinions more and more into account. Cool stuff. ;D
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Regulus Awesome: I wasn't try to adhere to his current design as much as I was trying to show off a more believable facial structure. (The mullet being added on for shits.)
Right now, there are some glaring flaws that one could call "style choices", but that'd be a cop-out. First, I'd kill off the strange black lines that cause a hard-edge to appear in very, very odd places. The lighting on the ear needs to go. If you think about the structure of a head and where the light is hitting, there wouldn't be highlights on the ear, correct? Unless, for some odd reason, the ears are sticking out so far that they're able to catch some of that light.
Maybe this quick mockup (which is similar to the current, less-realistic version) will make more sense than the Billy Ray Cyrus look-a-like.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Monsoon2D/no_mullet_sad_emoticon.gif)
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Oi, these are really nice edits. I'll take a lot of that into account.
Trevorius- unfortunately he's not supposed to be. I'm still working on it :P
Edit:(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
okay, so I fixed up a lot of the highlights. I kept a bit of lighting on the ear due to the depth it adds (your ear looks a bit like paper IMO). I kept a lot of the facial details due to the manly look it gives it and basing it off my own face when I make that expression. That was a really helpful edit. Thanks.
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Tuna, just a suggestion to you, if you really wanna get better at drawing faces you should go grab a mirror and start drawing your own face or browse around the internet and grab some pics of faces. Face looks a lot better than it originally was but I'm not sure if you completely understand the foundations of what you're doing.
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As I said earlier I have been studying, but its gradual. You also have to remember that this is practice just as much as a pencil sketch, I've been learning a lot about ears and noses and cheekbones throughout the progress of this piece. Also its really fun to work on.
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You also have to remember that this is practice just as much as a pencil sketch, I've been learning a lot about ears and noses and cheekbones throughout the progress of this piece.
I'm not telling you to do a pencil sketch, I'm telling you to draw from life, which helps you improve greatly.
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I actually have been. Mostly comparing it to faces on google and the occasional check in the mirror if I need help with the expression. Its actually starting to divert from the expression I originally had planned, but I'm definitely preferring it. Anyway, took a little tour through this whole thread and tried to fix up any flaws I missed.
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6564/wiptitlescreent.gif)
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Mouth is too low, nose is a bit big, ear beings at eyebrow and ends at end of nose, think of the neck as a cylinder, throw some saturation on those darker colors.
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I think you should look further at Sushi's latest edit. Flip the two images and compare the changes. I can see some flaws right now looking at the two next to each other. Despite being a 'quick edit', it brings up some good points.
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He looks too malevolent now. I still prefer the emotion in bengoshia's total edit. You've taken his happy confident hero candor and made it too badguyish - it's the brows and the mouth doing it.
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I don't really want him to look particularly mellow, but I know what you mean. I'll try and fix it.
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(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
Mellowed him out and fixed some other issues.
Its weird, half of me is anxious to get this done and over with, but the other half is really enjoying working on it.
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I would suggest for you to remove his...expression or totally change his face because he now looks like his face muscles are paralyzed. Look into the mirror when you are angry, your eybrow gets down, nose rises,cheekbones change etc. etc. now the only thing you have changed is mouth + the version without expression looked alot better...and try to position the ear more up as rawsushis edit...keep up the good work.
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(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
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Got a bit of Max Payne constipation action going here, huh? I really don't like that expression, it looks very forced.
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(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1420/wiptitlescreennsy.gif)
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I've been watching this thread for a while now, and I have to say that the progress you've made so far is great:
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a303/fidsah/progress.png)
The more you practice and start thinking in terms of anatomy, the less effort something like this will become. Keep up the great work!
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(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3800/titlescreenprogress.gif)
Just for fun.
I have to say you're right though. I've started to look at my, and other's, artwork in a bit of a different way and the other day I evem used a muscle chart as a reference off of instinct.
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Congratulations for hanging on and keeping up an open mind to accept critique and the vitality to rework your art! The improvement is overwhelming. Keep in mind the core lessons you've heard here when working in future art, and you'll see your skills progress greatly as well as the quality of your art.
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Oh yeah, I nearly forgot. Tiny little update.
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9872/wiptitlescreenk.gif)
Would you guys say this is finished?
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I kinda feel like you could do a bit more on the hair; it seems less detailed than the face below it. Still, the progression of the portrait has been pretty epic; it's been a real pleasure to watch it develop.
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(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
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(http://i41.tinypic.com/5vchlf.png)
I felt your secondary lightsource wasn't showing the form of the face properly.
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Gotcha.
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5391/wiptitlescreenc.gif)
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(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5396/awesomeiky.png)
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Gee, I don't know, the sunglasses throw off the perspective even if they save time on drawing the eyes :lol: Hairstyle makes me think of the main character from DBZ Evolution. :-[
The ribbon definitely helps :D
On a serious note, I love the colours.
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(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8140/wiptitlescreen.gif)
I dunno
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Whole thing looks cold/blue-tinted. I'd have to see this portrait plugged into the game with surrounding HUD/art to really know it the color edit is good. I wouldn't worry about colors right now. What's next on this thing? Got another portrait coming up?
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Taking a break from this right now but when I get back to it I'll probably do some new animations.
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(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5396/awesomeiky.png)
Don't tell me you didn't see this one comming.
(http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/7941/ohcomeonmans.gif)
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We should sell this design to Tuna. We'll split the profits, Opacus. He's a fool not to use it for the main boss.