Pixelation

Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: .TakaM on December 07, 2008, 01:43:47 pm

Title: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 07, 2008, 01:43:47 pm
As some of you are aware, Twinsen's scrapped and I'm starting a new game.
I've got a little bit more experience through twinsen, and it's a lot more interesting this time around.

Anywho, I still feel I don't have a good grasp on weight in animation, and I've been getting some mixed feedback on the new sword slash animation, so I'll just go ahead and throw it up for c+c:
(http://i37.tinypic.com/2i8j2fl.gif)

I'd like to keep each slash below 10 frames (real time) for the sake of responsiveness
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: NaCl on December 07, 2008, 02:11:49 pm
I think both attacks look quite good!

The only thing I can see is that in each swing, the weapon feels like it has a different weight. In the side swipe, it feels light and agile, in the top down one, it feels heavy. I like the heavy look though, so if you do anything on this front, maybe make the side swipe a little weightier.

Also, I tried to edit the gif a bit, but it seems to be made of deltas or something, so it looked mangled.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Jad on December 07, 2008, 03:32:05 pm
(http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/endisaster/takameditweight.gif)

I CAN'T RESIST THIS STUFF

Your slash was awesome from the start, but regarding weight: in video game animation, relying on a lot of anticipation and release is a good thing. When you wanna create weight, especially with characters, think about when the character moves WITH the forces of gravity, and when it moves AGAINST it. With this guy, the first slice goes fast enough since he's just throwing the sword into the air and then letting it move in an arc around him. When he needs to stop that force though, speed goes down and framcount goes up. As you can see I painted > A< faces when he has to resist and reverse the force of motion : D

I kinda overdid it with the up-to-down slice, but that's how I like my animation also, exaggerated. He balances up there for a while, and then he thumps down with EXCESSIVE FORCE, emphasized by some overreach/bounce. Errr. I can't remember where I edited frame delay and where I redrew frames so you'll have to check a little for yourself (:

I'll answer whatever questions you may have (:
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: caimgenji on December 07, 2008, 06:54:14 pm
I apologize if this is not relevant, it's not really from artist's viewpoint.

I like the movement of his body on the side swing, his hip is turning nice and he's getting range from legs.

But then to me the sword does indeed look heavy, but it seems like the sword is swinging the guy and not vice versa so it looks like the person is pretty uncomfortable with the weapon.  After the first hit he's going to get hid to his right collarbone, after second either his leg is chopped off (if he kicks) or he's poked with a tip of opponent's blade.  After the last hit his head he is asking to get his head hit real hard unless he is absolutely sure the hit will smash opponent to pieces.

The sword actually seems to be too heavy for its size, unless the wielder is not very strong or it's made of something really heavy.

In addition, if the person needs two hands to swing the sword up and down, I doubt he could swing sideways with just one hand.

If person is a skilled with sword, (s)he should be able to maintain his balance pretty much no matter how (s)he swings and use his body while swinging.  Now it looks like he's losing balance in both latter strikes and is trying desperately to stop the sword when it is lifted up and swung downwards.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 08, 2008, 11:38:06 am
Thanks Jad, to me that looks as good as it can be, unless there's something I'm missing do you mind if I move onto the next stage with your edit?

caimgenji, it's a little hard to tell with the stick figure animation, but the sword is behind him on his left, coming up to his right on the second swing, so he wouldn't be chopping off his leg :P
And on the third slash he's got both arms going over the right side of his head, so it's not gonna collide there either, it will be much clearer when I get the proper form in.

thanks guys :)
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Jad on December 08, 2008, 01:07:35 pm
I'd be honoured if you'd like to use my edit, my changes were so minute it'd be a waste for you to redo them if what I did what you wanted to achieve.

... I'd still recommend for you to go over your original yourself just to make sure that everything has your personal touch, though : D

Do as you wish, though, no big objections either way.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Ben2theEdge on December 08, 2008, 06:39:17 pm
Jad's edit is pretty much perfect - the trick to fluid animation is remembering where all the "joints" are - for example in his wrists. Anywhere there's a joint, it's going to bend a little bit when there's a dramatic shift in momentum. Keeping that in mind you could even bend his vertebrae a little after that upward swing, to give it even more fluidity.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Willows on December 08, 2008, 09:14:42 pm
If I'm not mistaken, Caimgenji was speaking in terms of "If he had an opponent, his opponent would chop off his leg at this stage or smash him in the head at this point" buut I don't think that's the case, so I'm not sure if that's a worry?

An' R.I.P Twinsen :/
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Ryumaru on December 09, 2008, 04:45:12 am
It feels like to me that in both versions the sword doesn't come down fast enough?
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 09, 2008, 06:08:34 am
just on the final slash ryu?
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Fool on December 09, 2008, 07:46:36 am
Works fine in general.=)
A few things I would suggest - anticipation of second slash (fr.16-17) - sword finishing motion arch - body starts moving forward. I x-ed frames i think as unnecessary, but see if it'll work for you.=) Some spacing adjusting  could be done also.

(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/2i8j2fl.gif)
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Mao™ on December 09, 2008, 10:01:48 pm
I'm not sure whether you're paying attention to the character design yet, but... he looks a little boring to me, for a game character. If he's going to have a cool sword-slash, he should have some cool clothes. x3

Here, I tried a little edit. I'm not quite sure of what direction you wanted to go with him, so I simply took a crack at it.
And if, er, you're not looking at character design quite yet, then nvm hun. xD


(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6985/77079959bk9.gif)
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: michael on December 09, 2008, 10:22:23 pm
oh, i personally like the original sprite much better! i feel like you over squeenixed him with those details.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Mao™ on December 09, 2008, 11:58:32 pm
Ah, it did lose a little something. It was all for fun, and I did notice that .TakaM used a grey only under the eye, and it seemed pointless. I hope you did see where I've added that colour, so it wouldn't seem such a... placeholder.

Sqeenix? I don't like the sound of that. D:
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Ryumaru on December 10, 2008, 03:10:12 am
just on the final slash ryu?
Well the slide slash is slow to but It just looks like maybe the range of movement allows for more of a time laps, where as the downward one just looks plain slow. I also forgot to say that that's really all I find fault with in this anim- looks great. :]
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Souly on December 10, 2008, 09:13:04 pm
I noticed that in fools edit he points out that the arms magically appear on the other side of his body.
Unless his up torso spins around like a robot.
(http://i38.tinypic.com/30mpdva.gif)

I also agreed that the over head slash didn't come down enough.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Dr D on December 10, 2008, 11:11:55 pm
Souly, I feel that in your edit, the extra frame or two that you added to make the arms go back to the original position seem to lag, it's awfully slow/choppy.

It's a good point you've made, but I don't think your edit demonstrates how to solve the problem correctly. However, I have to say I wouldn't be able to do any better, hence I don't do edits.  :-X
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Fool on December 11, 2008, 12:55:20 am
Got some time to take a closer look. Should say appeared bit confusing.
Here's why.
Frame 1 - pose is very calm, not ready for action at all - meaning you would have to spare some frames to get him in ready to attack position. (loosing some time)
Frames 2-9 - not quite clear what direction sword going - from the right shoulder to the left? In anyway  it is should follow an elipse instead of going down then turn left - very hard to control such a motion in a real life.
I tried from left shoulder to the right, see if it makes more sense.
Frames 10-17 - unclear motion. If it is a combo from his first swing position there is no sense to go back (while it is already there). You could try that with a stick - you'll loose a power of inertion. i think it will work better in two motions. Perhaps it is up to you.
rest of the frames - you don't need that much frames as long as you use speedlines.

Any way - that what i come up with - quite sloppy, but i hope you'll get my point.
(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/99.gif)
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 11, 2008, 01:25:33 am
I'm not sure whether you're paying attention to the character design yet, but... he looks a little boring to me, for a game character. If he's going to have a cool sword-slash, he should have some cool clothes. x3

Here, I tried a little edit. I'm not quite sure of what direction you wanted to go with him, so I simply took a crack at it.
And if, er, you're not looking at character design quite yet, then nvm hun. xD


(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6985/77079959bk9.gif)
Already done quite a few other animations, so it's a bit too late for any significant changes, but thanks for the suggestions :P

Getting a bit more confusion over the swings, so I'll show what it looks like now:
(http://i33.tinypic.com/nbrndt.gif)
For this combo, I just picked up a stick and this was what I did, although less exaggerated.
The torso being twisted is pretty extreme, so I'll be toning it down.

But yeah, does it still look impossibly awkward?
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Fool on December 11, 2008, 02:38:17 am
Ok, direction is clear now, although, the biggest problem right now - he shrink-n-grow legs and torso. It could be reasonably stretched but not twice in size. I would put a still sprite by side just to control this issue. Last slash still look a bit like an ax swing, I'd say reduce timing in anticipation to loose a feel of heavy weight.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: TrevoriuS on December 11, 2008, 07:35:03 am
The problem with the last swing mainly, is the lack of rotation in the sword. Make the tip move faster than it does now, and keep the motion of the hand, so the tip hits the ground, not the entire blade. That's a waste of energy and reduces movability too much if it were a real fight.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: 9_6 on December 11, 2008, 03:58:22 pm
Are those supposed to be 2 slashes or 3?
If it's 3, the second one has very little range compared to the other 2, if it's 2 then this is such an obnoxiously slow combo, the monsters have eaten you 10 times before it's finished!
That ridiculously little range of the melee attack was what got me killed in twinsen pretty good, I was always resorting to that lame jumping attack so does this actually work in the game?
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 18, 2008, 02:45:39 pm
(http://i44.tinypic.com/33lglle.gif) (http://i40.tinypic.com/15cixe1.gif)

I've already fixed the limb resizing a little, but there's more to do..

edit-
I'll increase the length of his legs on the idle frames too.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: balls01 on December 18, 2008, 04:00:12 pm
his legs look they magically become longer or is that a style choice
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Jim16 on December 18, 2008, 04:06:29 pm
He said his Idle frame frame would have longer limbs.
Not really my cup of tea...but yeah thats just me really.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 18, 2008, 04:11:02 pm
yeah, I'm aware of the issue and I'll be rectifying it by compacting these slash anims and stretching the idle frames a little.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: aregon810 on December 18, 2008, 04:42:26 pm
The longer the animation the longer the legs become =/?
(http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/6890/ediitvw4.png)


edit: oeps balls01 already said this  :-[
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Willows on December 18, 2008, 06:23:48 pm
I think the stretchiness (ENOUGH ABOUT THE STRETCHINESS!) is most visible because his head doesn't even come close to following an arc centred around his planted foot. Less confusingly, the distance between his head and planted foot changes eeeeenormously. I know you know this, but I'm mentioning it specifically 'cause it's what's making me notice the stretchiness as a very bad thing, because when watching the animation, I naturally look at the head.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Jakten on December 18, 2008, 07:01:50 pm
It actually looks to me like both of his legs are growing to almost double their original length at some points. When he steps out his body doesn't move down much and so when he steps out his leg grows to accompany the bend.

I was loving your Twinsen stuff I can't wait to see where you're going with this project.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Conzeit on December 19, 2008, 12:12:59 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/talbot/33lglle.gif)

really really choppy edit. I think it makes a better point than an extended crit on the subject I made a while ago...it's got all the right parts but you just gotta invert em to make it look that much better

 you've got all the important parts but with the insides out...

The sword trembling at one point was unintentional..I diminished it but left it there cause I got the impression you wanted the char to be a bit out of his element. Cant say anything about "imposibly awkward" though been watching a little too much Ninja Scroll.....
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Fool on December 19, 2008, 04:38:46 pm
I think it will benefit a lot if you consider so-called action lines (http://www.cdrr.ru/lesson/m_04.shtml). It is in russian, but pictures say it all. Growing problem could be solved by reposition body parts - stretch a bit here, a bit there - body doesn't have to follow the sword all the way.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: Mike on December 19, 2008, 05:00:56 pm
As some of you are aware, Twinsen's scrapped and I'm starting a new game.
I've got a little bit more experience through twinsen, and it's a lot more interesting this time around.

Anywho, I still feel I don't have a good grasp on weight in animation, and I've been getting some mixed feedback on the new sword slash animation, so I'll just go ahead and throw it up for c+c:
(http://i37.tinypic.com/2i8j2fl.gif)

I'd like to keep each slash below 10 frames (real time) for the sake of responsiveness

I like the first sword swing a lot, however if that is for a combo it's a bit slow.  I know it makes the character more interesting to have him inexperienced with the sword, but battles with that combo would be a bit annoying.  The final slash of a combo should be the strongest, and longest of the attack animations but that is a bit too long.  Still I like the method you used to animate it.  I'm specifically talking about the box.  I'm gonna try that now.
Title: Re: Yep, Sword Slashing.
Post by: .TakaM on December 20, 2008, 08:42:58 am
I think I'll start again, this time with just a left - right, right - left sequence.
The idea for this little combo is that you can just keep pressing the attack button, with the current animation I think the outcome is too varied not to mention flawed.
(also this would look ridiculous in mid-air)

So yeah, I might salvage parts of the first slash of this existing animation and I'll keep all of your suggestions in mind