Pixelation

Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: Dairy on October 30, 2008, 08:59:52 pm

Title: Rex Robot (WIP Dragon on the end)
Post by: Dairy on October 30, 2008, 08:59:52 pm
Hello,

I'm Dairy. I'm a graphich (2D pixel) modder for one game called Soldat.
I really like pixelart and with modding I've made some pictures which I hope could be classified as pixelarts.
Now I wanna show them to this community and I wish you will give me some constructive critism
If you have pixelart only under 256 colors I guess I'll get banned or deleted or something but I hope you will like it.
Cheers and enjoy.

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7990/rex222yh8.png)

By the way, you don't have to have any worries because the pixels were added one by one. No saturation programs no auto shaders or whatever programs exists. Only pure MS paint and one picture for what to do. I don't really remember what picture but I guess the robot was from some game. Later I'll add some more if you'll be interested.

Best regards.
- Dairy -
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: The B.O.B. on October 30, 2008, 09:38:32 pm

I really like pixelart and with modding I've made some pictures which I hope could be classified as pixelarts.
Now I wanna show them to this community and I wish you will give me some constructive critism
If you have pixelart only under 256 colors I guess I'll get banned or deleted or something but I hope you will like it.

By the way, you don't have to have any worries because the pixels were added one by one. No saturation programs no auto shaders or whatever programs exists. Only pure MS paint and one picture for what to do.

   I remember this piece at Pixeljoint. And I think it was sent back. However, this forum isn't a gallery, so you don't have to worry about that, as this can still be treated as a wip here. I don't have much to add, other than Promotion also counting 256 colors in this one. So with that in mind, my question to you is why?
   Why does a piece such as this NEED to be 256 colors? Is there a purpose to this? Why would one try to justify him or herself by saying that they placed over 256 colors in a piece, and still consider it to be pixel art? The problem here is NOT that it isn't pixel art. No, it's that there is a misunderstanding as to what pixel art is, and what makes GOOD pixel art.
   Pixel art started out with restriction, due to technical limitations. Therefore, artists and programmers had to think long and hard which specifics colors were to be chosen to represent their sprite, backgrounds and such, so that it can still be recognizable in the end, while retaining a bit of it's own character as well.
   So in this day and age, we have all sorts of freedom and whatnot to create different forms of digital art. When one begins to add more and more colors to his palette, to a degree that most of these chosen hues are so near in value, one can't differentiate one from another, it starts to clash with the initial ideals of what makes good pixel art, and begins to move into the higher digital art world(which isn't bad, mind you).
   Bearing this in mind, we must go back to my initial question: Why? Why use so many colors, and pain yourself in selecting so many redundant colors, rather than creating the piece with some auto. brush, or tool, and move into the path  of a higher res digital art form? I'm not saying pixel artists now a days look over each individual color, or pixel they choose, and judge it accordingly; no, that's too anal. It's more so about having control over your colors, and pieces, and make them function as a whole. That's why most pixel artists tend to cringe at high color counts, as it seems pointless overall. Of course, this can lead to countless debates about the demoscene, and how they use a ton of colors, or any other person from the scene who will argue with you to the death, to push their art into a category it probably doesn't belong in. But Categorizing can be a kill joy too, so don't worry about this...
   Before I start making less sense, I just would like to say for future pieces, great pixel art does NOT have to contain a TON of colors. Be weary of your palette selection. Readability is key. And traditional art, just like in any other art form, will definitely help you in the pixel art world as well...

Oh, and welcome to Pixelation!  :)
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: AlexHW on October 30, 2008, 10:32:01 pm
hey Dairy..
can you build us a diagram of the colors you used and their purposes in your image?
might be a good exercise for you to try this.
also, when you do that. can you differentiate between similar colors and how their subtle differences are justifiable or needed? or not needed?

my assumption is that if you're using 256 colors, you can probably reduce that down some considering the current style its expressing..
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Helm on October 30, 2008, 10:32:20 pm
You're doing something pretty strange here. I can see manual pixel placements, but the way the color here works suggests it is overworked over a cg piece. Why? How?
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Sherman Gill on October 30, 2008, 10:41:48 pm
Robot is from Metal Gear Solid :).

I think, since it looks like you're going for something relatively realistic, you should cut down on internal outlines, or perhaps get rid of the outlines altogether ???
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Cure on October 30, 2008, 11:31:31 pm
Even if having all of those colors were advantageous (I think it'd look much better with much less), those black outlines ruin it all anyway.

Also, make sure to cite your references.
http://forceoperationsx.webs.com/REX.jpg (http://forceoperationsx.webs.com/REX.jpg)
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Dairy on October 30, 2008, 11:44:08 pm
Thank you guys very much you didn't flame me to hell.

It's an old image on request and I guess I don't really know the pallete which sounds weird but it's like that. My style is like I'm trying to copy the original picture which I'm making that makes me adding absolutly random/custom colors and their shades. I would like to copy the real colors so I'm "travelling" thru the whole color pallete.

To be honest the words before gives you answer for the "tons" of colors. I just like to make small pictures of pixels some realism. Still I love the realism of Metal Slug and those awesome animations.

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4924/desertsoldierxh0.png)

As you can see here, it doesn't really looks like a pixelart. I used as much colors as possible and I used one realistic picture just to make me sure how the colors sure look like. Don't ask me please for any tools because I'm one 100% sure I did it zoomed and added everything by myself in MS paint. It's just my own style. And don't worry I putted into it a lot of efford and "waste" enough time to make myself proud as every artist here when they finish their good artwork.

On the other hand I tryed some classic styles and I was really glad and happy I'm not so useless and crappy in pixelart.

(http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/8773/petjq4.png)
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8799/walkieii8.png)
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1701/twomushroomshl1.png)

It's not that bad, is it ? I really enjoy making pictures like this, sadly lately I don't have so much time but still pixelart is my "heart-close" thing.

For example, I can post some mods from Soldat. Those are just weapons but most people are asking me ...well, they asked if it's resized or something. I have just one answer, no it's not ! But on pixejoint they didn't believe me. I mean, nobody never made something like that just with zoom ? I know they did. Maybe it's much simplier with some tools but I wouldn't be so proud to release it just like that.

Don't know if you guys understand me or not. I don't really know if it's important but I'm glad some of you have the same feeling about pixelart and enjoying to makin' it like me.

Cheers.

Oh, and some pictures of the mods.

Call Of Duty 4 weapons
(http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/247/thisishowitsdoneeh2.png)

EDIT:Cure ! Exactly, that's the picture. Thanks.

EDIT2:Okay as I see the call of duty 4 weapons I have to say I used gimp just to make antialiasing, which I made pixel by pixel as well.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: AlexHW on October 31, 2008, 12:22:30 am
its ok to do what you did.. hey, i did it a few times when i was a beginner at this. one day you're going to say, "what's the point of this?"..
its cool to reproduce something from another medium into pixelized form, but if that's all you're focused on doing, you wont get down to the technical stuff to know what makes a good piece of art, cuz you wont ever be going through the motions and learning process required when making original art which asks the pertinent questions that need answers in order for you to get anywhere.. instead you'll just be doing a passive exercise of reproducing something.. thats doesnt stimulate your mind as much..
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Helm on October 31, 2008, 06:56:58 am
So if I understand you correctly you feel to be a bad artist when you work without reference and so you prefer to work with 'borrowed strength', copy pictures to think of yourself like a better artist than you really know you are?
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Dairy on October 31, 2008, 09:44:11 am
No way dude, I'm not like a psycho who has to make something by "cheating" to feel better. You completely missunderstood what I ment. Maybe I wrote it wrongly because my english isn't that good to clean up all my things. I ment I used some pictures (not COPYing them) as an "idol" (?) just to make my picture as much realistic as possible.

Or I don't know what do you mean. I thought you will give me some constructive critism not to talk about my personality, doctor.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: The B.O.B. on October 31, 2008, 12:39:37 pm
   No need to get defensive, Dairy. We're just trying to understand your method of drawing. However, every time I read what you posted, it still does confuse me a bit. You still say you use as much colors as possible to make a picture look realistic, when in truth, realism can still be achieved with minimal colors in Pixel art. Also:

As you can see here, it doesn't really looks like a pixelart. I used as much colors as possible and I used one realistic picture just to make me sure how the colors sure look like.

   It seems like you're admitting that it isn't pixel art, but still trying to justify the means. Again, why torture yourself with choosing so many colors manually, when this can easily be done with a digital brush or tool with Hi res digital art? I guess I don't quite understand the point in doing pixel art like this, as the method doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: ptoing on October 31, 2008, 01:46:16 pm
Lots of colours does not equal realism per se. The old masters only had a limited palette of colours as well, of course they had mixing which results in more shades, but still. A limited, well thought out palette is good in every art medium.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Helm on October 31, 2008, 04:03:34 pm
(http://www.locustleaves.com/robowalker.gif)

To what extent would you say this fits your criteria of what a 'copy' is? I'm not saying it's full-on tracing, but are you aware of what we call a 'copy' here? It's exactly what you did, eyeballing a picture and then not mentioning your sources...

Also I would suggest you don't get sarcastic. The point here is that your artistic practices will hold you back and also trap you in a negative loop of hypocrisy. You won't get better as an artist doing what you're doing, but you might successfully fool other people that haven't seen the originals in thinking you are awesome. And then you will feel the pressure of being 'established as awesome' and will keep making copies to satisfy your self-image. Instead if you'd work on your traditional skills you'll see much improvement over little time.

I want you to know that in pixelation ripping or copying without mentioning sources has often been grounds for instaban. We're not going that way when we see that there wasn't exact maliciousness behind it, as with here, but you should really read the RULES (http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=2002.0) of this forum.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Dairy on November 01, 2008, 09:21:10 am
Dude. Okay I'm sorry, I'm not acting defensive but you're making me look like one.

As I see again. I said that I used one picture and somebody posted it and I agreed with him it's the one I used. But I didn't copy anything I used it as a ...sample,example (don't know exactly the right word)

-Cheers-
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: tehwexxl0rz on November 01, 2008, 10:03:32 am
You copied the design, pose, and coloration of the robot from that picture. Therefore, you should have cited that picture as a reference. You simply posted your drawing as if it was your own original creation. This was your mistake. I suggest you acknowledge that and move on if you don't want to get banned.

On the topic of pixel art, your light source is very vague. Also, the jaggy internal outlines need anti-aliasing. The anti-aliasing on the outside does not look manually done....
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: ptoing on November 01, 2008, 12:20:09 pm
Diary, you are being defensive.

The definition of a copy is that you look at some source imagery which is not yours originally and then you use it as heavy reference. So you DID copy it, there is not denying that.
To me it even looks like you colourpicked from the original picture. If you think a copy is something else, you have a wrong idea about it. If someone makes a painting after a work by Rembrandt than that is called a mastercopy, same idea. You look at something and try to reproduce it as close as you can = COPY.

Let's move on now tho. In the future please just post the images you reference so stuff like this wont happen again.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Dairy on November 01, 2008, 02:13:19 pm
Oh so, OKay. I'm really sorry, so yes. I copied. I thought you mean I just resized it or something. Okay my fault.

And I wrote it wasn't mine, I said it was a suggestion and it's from a game which I can't remember.

And the antialiasing is manualy done. I just downloaded Graphic Gale , added layer and manualy pixel by pixel added AA. Nothing hard. It's just around outline just to make it more roundy. :)

(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9777/12755640hz9.png)

For example, this is picture with some time period. As you can see I worked with some colors on the start, then I started to add more various colors. Sometimes just randomly added because it looks real. adding more shading and so. I'm not doing this few weeks.

I'm sorry being defensive but it's stresful wherever I go I see people telling me I'm resizing, copying, using tools and photoshoping. Nobody tells me, Whoa, you putted a lot of effort into it, didn't you ? or at least some warm word, constructive critism. That's why.

Being banned. Well, I'm saying once again that I mentioned it's from a game which I don't really remember and the picture isn't on my HDD anymore and when somebody putted the picture here I edited the reply and wrote That's exactly the one I used.

It's not allowed to use some pictures as help ? Because for me it's sometimes really important just to make it as realistic as possible.

Sorry again and cheers.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Helm on November 01, 2008, 09:55:26 pm
well Pixelation works a certain way that might be for you or not, it's your call. Familiarize yourself with the rules, they answer your questions.

The broader answer to your question if you'd like my opinion is that you're inhibiting your artistic progress by copying and that you should work on your fundamental art skills.
Title: Re: Rex Robot
Post by: Dairy on November 02, 2008, 10:49:23 pm
Okay. As I see here is the critism kind of "no gentle" which is not really nice but good and constructive. I was thinking about your suggestions and maybe your suggestions helped with my ego. But not only that now I need some of your proffesional help with a real pixelart. Which I hope it is, Its a WIP dragon but I have no idea how to shade the skin. Any suggestions ? Can I help here to look on some pictures of animals ? (reptiles)


(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1522/dragonkg6.png)

EDIT: Second version, this one just needs some tips about shading and adding texture. Could somebody help me ?  ???

(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/5057/dragonlv9.png)
Title: Re: Rex Robot (WIP Dragon on the end)
Post by: Jad on November 03, 2008, 08:38:34 am
Hey, this is nice! You've chosen a great format for doing effective pixel art; man, you can only imagine what awesome things you can do with this pallette.

I'm at work right now so I don't really have time to give goot critique, but I'll try to find time to go in-depth and maybe do an edit when I get home.

I know about the 'harsh critique' thing at pixelation, but it's mostly when people start getting defensive that pixelation members bring out the heavy guns. I don't know how I feel about that, really, but I'm glad you're not running away (:

Anyway:

Line art for the dragon is solid, although the plates on the front of the neck are a bit uneven, you might want to align them a bit more evenly.

Light source is inconsistent, look at the top horns and the bottom horns, they're shaded from two different sides. Now that I look at it I realize that the light source is supposed to be in front of him, but it doesn't read very well. Consider readability.

Colour ramps are straight and dull (not very badly so, mind you, but can get better). I'd suggest a little hue variation and more contrast.

About texture, man, that's hard, I know what you mean. Some really bright highlights to suggest scales would be nice I think. do a google image search on 'scale + skin' or 'scaly skin' and see what you find if you need inspiration.

Great that you're trying some limited pixel art, I think you'll understand what we meant about not using redundant colours if you really follow this one through (:

Cheers.
Title: Re: Rex Robot (WIP Dragon on the end)
Post by: Dairy on November 03, 2008, 11:21:07 am
Yes You're right the light source is supposed to be in front of him.
Yes I agree the plates are kind of out of position, they're not really a plates, it's the hardened skin.

OKay I've made some fixes and addons. Let's see:

(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1913/dragoneb3.png)