Pixelation
Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: xhunterko on October 07, 2008, 09:01:22 am
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NOTICE
You may ignore the drivel and go right to the notice if you'd like.
START Drivel:
Never, ever, ever show your little sibling your sprite art. Why?:
"I don't know why I bother, all your stuff looks the same." "What is he, some robot ninja thing?" "Well, he still has stick legs, the arm is too long, and he doesn't have any 3dish shading."
What ticks me off most, is the 3 other people on the net who saw it said it looked good. They let me think that it was okay, now I think it still sucks. I just wanted to take the erase tool and go through all the work on my file. And remove a good blob of it. Then start from scratch or do something else for a while. Anyway, this is not the reason why I posted.
END Drivel
Notice: So, aside from the above, I think that the sprite is mostly finished. But I'm going to do some variations of friendly NPC troopers and some enemy troopers to practice on. Just so I don't screw up the main sprite any more. Hopefully I'll have the some done by this weekend. (Yes, I know this is not a blog. Just wanted to give you guys a head's up of what's coming up.)
NEWEST
I think I'm closer to calling it finished. Something still bothers me though. More below.
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/pickcharacter.png)
Most thing changed is the palette, and some other. More below.
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedfini.png)
Did some slight modifying to the right leg and ankle. Changed a bit of the armor pads. More below
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedspritemodded.png
Changed a few things here and there. Based somewhat off of Anarcho's edit. The one with the orange circle is the newest one. More below.
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/mainsketchybaseedit.png
Changed size restrictions. That allowed for a bit more detail I think. (Not the guy with the exclamation mark, the guys with the swords.)
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedtestnew2.png
I changed the colors and some other things explained in below post. I hope I took some of the advice.
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedtestnew.png
Older Image
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/maincharacter.png
OLD UPDATED
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/mainrev.png
I think what I want help on, is mostly style, shading, and something else. I just can't put my finger on it at the moment. Scroll down for drivel.
I've been struggling with the style for a while now and i just don't know what to go with. I know I should be working on something else, but I had a couple days off this week so I had to do some pixel work. I just don't know what style I should use here.
The smaller one is one I came up with. The larger one is an adaptation to a newer style I found on from a game. Maybe I'm trying to find a happy medium between the two.
Crits, comments, help please.
(Don't overreact, don't overreact, don't overreact...)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/tocky/hunter-spikyguy.png)
-contrast is an issue
-emphasise the qualities that make your character unique.
-use a photo for anatomy reference
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I think the character lacks personality. It looks like a beat em up enemy. First of all, you should correct the body, stance and stuff like that (look at Tocky's edit), then I think you should try to add more character.
Also, is the thing at the back of the head a head band or just spikes?
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Its supposed to be a headband. Looking at it, it does look a bit off. Everything always looks good on paper. I actually wanted the spikes to be his hair kind of. But I couldn't get it to look right so I went with spikes. Thanks emtch, however, that is by far the oddest style I've seen anywhere. I don't know about that contrast. I'm using 4 colors (1 is border), shadow, midtone, and highlight.
How would I add more character and overall expression?
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Well, first for character.. i'd look at your pose which you've put him in. think about what he's going to do. Right now, he looks quite.. bent knees.
And then, the overall expression will become clear once you figured out what the character will do. You can then put that into his stance or whatever, for some style.
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(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/mainrev.png)
@Tocky: The one in the pink circle is the updated one.
1.I'm pretty sure I got the contrast thing.
2. I added changed the spikes a little bit. Gave him a bit more armor pieces I think. Its odd, those eyes aren't really yellow. But not close up, they look yellow, I just noticed it and wondered why you made them yellow.
3. Dug out Military Field Ops manual I got from my brother in law and found a reference there. Also, I used a megaman zx reference. I hope it doesn't look like an edit.
Does this look correct now? I'm a bit confused as to how to do the feet. Plus the helmet looks a bit off.
EDIT: Forgot about merging the outline. Looks like I have to bring out the entire gray pallette. That'd be pretty neat though. An enemy investigates a dark corner and all he sees is glowing, yellowish eyes before he dies.
EDIT2: I think. But I can't work on it anymore tonight though. Maybe something later this week after work. (8:30 tomorrow, not getting much sleep tonight. :-[)
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Yeah, I figured he was wearing goggles or something.
Your dude still looks too flat, I'll see if I can post somethign that shows what I mean. Make closer stuff lighter, including outlines. Contrast issues are still there. Use a wider range of values - lighter highlights, darker shadows. I was using your pallete for the most part, but it could use some work. Use colours, even when the stuff you're drawing is gray, and don't make it all the same hue. So use, for instance, a blue-black for shadows, a pale dark red for hilights. Or something else, just mess around with it. But use a human reference, for reals. Megaman won't be half as useful.
EDIT:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/tocky/hunter-spikyguy-1.png)
Okay, most of your contrast issues could be fixed by messing with the colours, but the flatness thing is a bit more complicated. You need to be blocking in colours so that his shape, and his stance, reads more clearly. Be sure to indicate stuff like elbows and knees. Use shading to indicate the shape of things, and use negative space. Do you get where I'm coming from?
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I believe I have fixed some of the stuff. Although the hands, feet, and legs bother me still. I changed the sprite a bit more and decided to go with a generic trooper here. I also changed the pallete a bit to make shading easier. I thought about going to gray again. Then I thought a dark blue would look better. Removed helmet as well for same reason. It will be added in later though. Wanted to try shading with different colors a bit.
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedtestnew.png)
(After data mining for a week I found a tutorial that actually did step by step on what I wanted...Now that I have it downloaded, image wise, I forgot where I found it. Still, it helped, I think. Right?)
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I still think it feels a bit egyptian, the torso and arms are pretty much front view, while the legs and head are sideview. And what's up with his torso? It looks like it's made up of many randomly placed chest muscles. Also the colors are too saturated and the contrast is too bad.
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He's supposed to be a black ops operative (guy in the blue) with body armor on. I have an idea for the contrast which I'm using (unposted) at the moment. I found a sprite on here that has the similar restrictions as mine does, so I may use that as inspiration maybe. He's actually supposed to be wearing full body armor, but I can't seem to get it to look right. I'm probably worried that the player won't be able to see themselves if I make it too dark.
(On a side off topic note: Who is the guy that pops up in the pixelation banner? It's bothering me.)
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Changed size restrictions. That allowed for a bit more detail I think. Did I fix the egyptian look? I would still like to make it look like he's wearing full body armor. (I'm still deciding as to whether or not I should actually make him have yellow goggles. Curse Graphic Gales non-overlapping ability.) Not sure how I should go about that now. Oh, he's also going to wield two guns, which I'm not adding in until I think the look is finished.
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedtestnew2.png)
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(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a360/EvilLaughKid2/New%20Stuff/sketchedtestnew2ElkEdit.png)
Here's a couple quick edits.
The first is a complete stylistic change, this was mostly for my own practice.
The second I changed his right arm, and the positioning of his feet. The "Egyptian" look comes mainly from the fact his body looks facing us, and his legs are both facing left. So the feet thing is what would fix it in that scenario. When I finished I thought the bodyshape resembled the old 8bit mario, so I named it the mario edit.
Then I looked at the image again, trying to wonder why both feet would stick forward like that, and I thought "maybe he is completely sideways?" So to emphasize this look, I moves his legs closer together so they had more depth, I narrowed his torso, because it seemed quite wide for someone who was sideways, and I widened and put some more emphasis on his left arm. he looks more like he is facing sideways with this, so I named it the sideway edit.
Also, I think that's Bruce Lee who is popping up in the banner.
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First off, thank you for the edits, anything helps. I like how you kept the armor sections in there, that will help. I think I have something for the feet (again). I noticed your style edit matched my updated version more then the others (the sword guy). I'll have to look at how you kept the 'armor' pieces though. That looks interesting.
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Okay, here we go.
Changed a few things here and there. Based somewhat off of Anarcho's edit. More below
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/mainsketchybaseedit.png)
I worked on everything I think. Lowered the left arm a bit to match the pose. Made a little more space in the back. I think I have the feet problem fixed. Let me know if I don't. Didn't change the right arm much, still want that to be partially visible. (He is going to hold two heavy pistols after all.) Changed the positioning of the legs a little. Overall, I think that some of the changes make him look, skinny? But I'm pretty sure this looks much better then my previous older sprites.
So, what do you think? Better, worse?
Extra Comments and Crit please
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The only thing standing out to me right now is the way his right (our left) leg seems to go straight back, and then when it reaches the boot, straight down.
It looks like there is a joint about half a foot above the angle. The two solutions would be to give him a bend at the knee to allow his shin to go into the boot more naturally, or to bend the boot to allow the shin to go in naturally, following the line of his leg.
Much improved though, I think.
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Thanks for the reply. You are talking about the guy with the orange circle by him right? Thats the new one. I can't seem to get that bent look right though for some reason. I'll have to look at that again.
(Mockup coming soon.)
(Erm, anyone else want to add anything? Or does anarchoelk pretty much has it covered? Sorry if I'm acting like a pest, but I like updates.)
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Taking another look at it, I have a couple questions, and a couple things.
The thing is the outline colour on the gloves, compared to the outline of the armour, is too light.
The first question had to do with the second thing. Is the orange circle the light source? It looks like it could be for most of the shading, but then in others is seems like it isn't. the main thing here is his left (our right) leg. Its completely reversed on that leg. The other leg looks fine, as the light still seems to be coming from the left, but blocked by the rest of the body somewhat.
The second question is the armour. I tried to keep the style of it in the edit I made, but to be honest, it confuses me. I have no idea what's going on with it. Only the shoulders make sense to me. SO I just want to know how it goes together, or if you used a reference, what it was
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Thanks for pointing that out.
The outline of the gloves. Is sorta based on a no-black outline technique that uses the darkest color of the objects base color. Which is why it probably looks lighter. Would it look better shaded with the rest of the outline color?
No, the orange thing is not the light source. That's merely to show which sprite is the newest one that I've worked on. The light source would probably be in the upper right corner. Or something a little above that maybe.
Thank you for pointing out that leg. I'll fix it here in a little bit.
About the armor. I realize that everybody isn't interested in the Mecha-like universe. The armor is based off of an old mech aussalt game for the PC. Its in a picture in the instruction booklet that its based on. Also, it''s slightly based off of exo-force chest padding as well. I'll post pics if I can later. Sorry for the confusion.
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I wouldn't say use the same colour, but I think using a similar shade would be preferable. Your darkest blue is quite dark, but the darkest brown is still fairly light. if you had a darker brown to outline the gloves, it would look more like a single piece. With the lightness of the brown used for the outlines, it makes the gloves and boots look separate from the character.
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I forgot about fixing the outline in this piece. However, I do believe I have fixed the right leg shading issue. As well as the ankle area there. What I intend to do more is lower the sprite about 2 pixels because this seems a bit tall to me.
I'm also going to have a run animation with and without two pistols. Are there any good examples of these on here?
I also want to do a mockup with this guy intruding into an enemy base. Are there any specific games or examples on here that do metal or other backgrounds like that around here?
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedspritemodded.png)
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Frst don' work on a white background. use a ligher grey if you're feeling lazy or pick a color that isn't going to clash too much with the colors that you're using
You're realy using way more colors than you need to. your darkest blue is pretty much indistinguishable from black. so i went ahead and changed it to black t reduce the color count.
Also, i'm not terribly fond of the color choice, either. it's too saturated
So i chaged the blues to a more greenish hue, and reduced the saturation a good bit. also i had no idea what was going on with the eyes. are those goggles or what?
At this size you really dont' need more than a couple of hues for shading, any more are likely to get lost in the mix.
The torso area is a bit too noisy, and not very readable. it wouldn't hurt to simplify it a bit.
Also i'm assuming he's a stealth character so, while it's fine to not use a black ouline, it doesn't make much sense for his gloves and boots to be so...bright. youcan use black as more than just an outline color - in fact, black is ridiculously useful, since your eyes will naturally add details that aren't actually there and give the illusion that there's more going on than there really is
(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7172/sketchedspritemoddedcq1.png)
Also i'm sorry if this comes off as harsh, i don't mean it that way.
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Your not actually, (check the responses to some of my first posts in the off topic creativity thread and you'll see why).
I actually like your color change. But, I think if I use too few colors it'll look a bit flat. Everyone seems confused about the eyes. I don't know why. If graphics gale had some sort of transparency thing, it'd be easier to do. (I'm not that good with visors.) Yeah, I'm going to change the torso a bit and probably shorten the sprite a little. And again at anarchoelk, I like what you've done with the face. He's supposed to be a younger character anyway and I always thought my face size made him look, old.
I've just now got around to posting here. It's been busy week and I've been sick a lot. So, now that I'm feeling better I might get some more pixeling done.
Oh, and thanks for the edit, I appreciate it. (It's actually nice to know that I'm going in the right direction for once.)
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Modified
(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/sketchedfini.png)
Okaay, first things first. Changed the colors around a bit. I liked corsair's colors so much that I found something similar and used that. Also, since many people were confused about the eyes, went ahead and gave him a yellow visor. I changed his size and made him shorter. (Since it's closer to the original and looks a bit better.) Took out some of the things going on in the torso. (I think.) I also did a color change on the hands and feet, using the old palette for that. Oh yes, finally gave him a black outline as well.
1. What I'm still concerned with is these points.
2. I think I have the anatomy correct now. But I'm a bit worried about the head size and the arm on the left. Or am I just nitpicking and there's nothing to worry about?
3. Also, I'm not that good with visors and the like. 2 colors just don't seem rite to me. Any tips on those?
4. I changed the palette on the gloves and boots to have them match the rest of the sprite. Did I pick the right colors here?
(I know you all have other projects and stuff on your mind. And there's other people that are asking for help. But please don't stop posting. I like to know if I've had some improvement.)
(Other projects, as in, the Isocollaboration. Cough, cough.)
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=6247.msg84440#msg84440
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The update looks much better than what you had before, and I have to say you're progressing very well.
The first thing that pops into my head when I look at this, is that while it's not pillow shaded, you didn't really flesh out your forms at all, so it looks more like some sheets of colored paper than a black ops dude. When you're making a sprite you need to dive into depth to really make your sprite look like something that can kill the bad guys.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/Daroge/Edits/sketchedspritemoddedcq1kcilcedit.png)
Note; I edited over Corsair's edit 'cause I was lazy and liked his color choices.
What I did in my edit was first fix up his posture and proportions; pulled his legs in slightly, and moved his arm one pixel in, then made both his arms a few pixels longer.
Next, I foreshortened his left (not our left) arm because I see him as facing slightly away from the viewer.
I then took out the highlights on his left leg and arm to make them appear further away.
After all that I went in and started to block in what I thought the armor should look like when he's inside, then refined it when I got most of the kinks out. You don't need too much anatomy knowledge to pull this off, just enough to know the basic proportions of a human, and the size and shape of different muscle groups. Of course, I'm not very good at anatomy at all, and see plenty of mistakes in my edit, so maybe someone with more experience should help you with this.
I removed his banana feet (in yours it looks like his toes curve up at the ends, like a banana).
Then I tried to make the visor look more like a visor and less like eyes. Usually a shiny visor at this size should only have one bright highlight, and some buffer shades around it except where the glass curves and goes under the helmet.
Tweaked the colors, and was done!
If you notice anything in my edit that I didn't mention, or didn't explain well enough please ask me about it; I'll try my best to answer what it is.
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I think I see what your saying bout the colors and form a bit. I wanted to avoid the "robot" look with the feet there. And also avoid having it look like an edit. I remember being told to use "negative" space somewhere and have him look like he's about to do something. Your's seems to just slump forward a bit and be in a almost shrug position. Taking a second glance, I kinda see what your trying to "fix". I'll take a look at the legs and arms and see about that proportion thingie. I'm tired now and not sure if this is a good response. Remind me later that I have a iso tile to edit.
Oh, and thank you for the edit and tips. But, lemme use a line here that you guys always seem to like to do. Never work directly off of someone's else edit. Your not going to help yourself or the other person learn very well by doing so. (small joke on my part, thanks for the improvement comments though. I find those encouraging.)
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Never work directly off of someone's else edit. Your not going to help yourself or the other person learn very well by doing so.
You made that part up. :-\ It's often quite helpful to work off someone else's edit for another person if you think they took it in the right direction.
In any case, I'm working on an edit (based on Kcilc's edit, based on Corsair's.....)
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the main problem I see here is that I get the feeling that you dont know how to draw all that much, specially when it comes to anatomy and proportions.
I traced over the middle point of scaled up pixels to have sort of a silluete of both yours and Kcilc's edit. and the reason I think Kcilc's edit is so much better is based almost only in his proportions. he also uses color very cleverly to define even more anatomy to help with proportions (such as the chest area)
dont get me wrong I'm not bashing on you and praising Kcilc but you really should take a close look to his edit. theres proportions, theres a pose, theres great use of color.
(http://www.marcovale.com/public_img/pixel/xhunter_trace.jpg)
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@tehwexxl0rz: No I'm not, I actually saw something like that posted on somebody else's thread. And I'm just joking there. Perhaps I shoulda put that 'I'm joking' in parentheses or something to make it more clear.
@Kaz: It really bothers me when people say I don't draw that much when I know I have at least 2-3 notebooks full of sketches and drawings in the cabinet. HOWEVER, most of those are largely terrain/map drawings. Not really that many character drawings. Which, is probably why I have trouble with this particular form. So you are probably right about that.
Otherwise. There are some things that bother me about kcilc's edit though. The first thing is mostly the longer legs. I want to get some run animation out of this and want it to not be that difficult. Maybe that's why I'm holding back or something. Another thing is about his arms. Using the old colors, I was afraid people wouldn't be able to see the arms at all. Looking at teh edits, it seems as if that's not a thing I need to worry about now. So that's a good thing, I hope.
One more thing. I like what you've done with the visor. I might use it. (If you don't mind.)
(And don't worry about thinking that I'm going to think your bashing me. I know help when I see it now. ;))
Again, thank you for the edits.
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Never work directly off of someone's else edit. Your not going to help yourself or the other person learn very well by doing so.
You made that part up. :-\ It's often quite helpful to work off someone else's edit for another person if you think they took it in the right direction.
In any case, I'm working on an edit (based on Kcilc's edit, based on Corsair's.....)
That is indeed not at all helpfull. You don't learn a thing just working of someone's edit. You can try to change yours to look like it as close as possible,
but it's not gonna help a thing if you just take someone else's edit.
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Never work directly off of someone's else edit. Your not going to help yourself or the other person learn very well by doing so.
You made that part up. :-\ It's often quite helpful to work off someone else's edit for another person if you think they took it in the right direction.
In any case, I'm working on an edit (based on Kcilc's edit, based on Corsair's.....)
That is indeed not at all helpfull. You don't learn a thing just working of someone's edit. You can try to change yours to look like it as close as possible,
but it's not gonna help a thing if you just take someone else's edit.
You misunderstand completely! I'll clarify: It's often quite helpful for a critiquer to work off another critiquer's edit as a teaching tool for the original artist if the second critiquer thinks the first critiquer took it in the right direction.
That's why I called out xhunterko on critiquing Kcilc's teaching methods.
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@tehwexxl0rz: Perhaps you need to re-read the post again and see that I WAS JOKING about the method he was using. No, it is not helpful if I just take kcilc's or corsair's or Kaz's edit and rework my sprite off of that. You are correct in thinking that it's useful for the other critiquers to use other critiquers work for teaching the original artist a different method. Be it far from me, (the person asking for help), to tell someone who's trying to teach me something that he's not doing a good job. Especially when he's obviously better then me at said subject. There was no reason to get defensive about me "back talking" to Kaz. Especially when I said I found his advice useful.
Please stay on topic. I haven't worked on it a bit cause of real life work and the Isocollaboration project. Here's my piece if you would like to shread something else to pieces.
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/new/myisonumber68.png
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xhunterko, I never suggested that you work over anyone's edit. Of course that wouldn't be helpful.
You are correct in thinking that it's useful for the other critiquers to use other critiquers work for teaching the original artist a different method.
That's ALL I said.
Be it far from me, (the person asking for help), to tell someone who's trying to teach me something that he's not doing a good job.
That was my point.
There was no reason to get defensive about me "back talking" to Kaz.
I assume you mean Kcilc. I never accused you of "back talking." I only tried explain that Kcilc made his edit to teach you, not to study Corsair's techniques for his own purposes.
Please stay on topic.
Do you see the irony here?
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wtf are you even doing here wex. . . I think you need to buff up your reading comprehension skills. I don't really think you understand what's going on. Maybe your first misunderstood post had some value, for people who may have thought hunter was being serious, but everything following has been a trainwreck.
@xhunterko
The one thing sticking out to me is on his right leg, the leg seems to come out at a near 45 degree angle, but the boot is still straight vertical.
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I think you guys are making a big deal out of something small, lets not make it worse, so lets stay on topic and keep the focus on pixeling..
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AnarchoElk, that was senselessly rude. I post one misunderstood comment and then explain myself only to receive a barrage of flaming. Thanks, Alex.
Don't know why I even bother:
(http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/1997/xhunterkoiu1.gif)
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@tehwexxl0rz: I apologize for the trouble that this thread has given you. Hopefully, it won't happen again. The following is not a suck-up. Your edit, however, looks more like the direction that I want to take this sprite in. Its slightly based on the original yet you add your own style to it. It takes on the aspects of both kcilc's and Kaz's edit and puts them together. Yet another piece that I'll have to look at while working on this sprite.
Please don't feel bothered. I really appreciate any help I can get. I know I suck at this form of spriting. So, thank you for the edit.
(I'd mention that you were right about somebody else. But I don't want this to get worse and have this thread locked.)
EDIT: I have been working on it some today. Mite post it later.
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(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/rob/NeoHunterko/pickcharacter.png)
I'm fairly certain there's still some issues with it. It feels more and more complete now, but I'm just not sure. I was a bit worried that someone would think that I copied or worked directly off someones edit. So I included those for comparison. The reason why I have four different styles is that I'm deciding on what to do with the armor pads and the helmet still. While I like 2b, 2a feels a bit incomplete without the armor pads. Which is why I'm still unsure about it. Should I make the other arm on that side a tad thicker? Or is there something else entirely wrong here and I don't see it?
EDIT: I like 2a the most though. It says the classic ninja look more then the aqua helmet does. Any other opinions?
EDIT: It seems that you guys are a little busy right now. I'll just change what I think I need and then do some variations then. (People seem to mostly like 1a/b for some reason. Even with the aqua helmet.)