Pixelation

Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: Salvage on September 01, 2008, 05:08:44 am

Title: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 01, 2008, 05:08:44 am
I did this doodle cause I wanted to try anatomical stuff.
I am ok with how I got the forms to read so far, but I don't love the shading or colors and would like something more interesting.
Any technique suggestions?
C+C and/or edits are most welcome.
Thanks :)

(http://burningcottage.com/graphic_content/salvage_dog.gif)

Current:
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_iso_dog-monster.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: tocky on September 01, 2008, 10:36:35 am
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/tocky/salvage-dogman.png)
messy edit, but generally:
-more hilights
-yay contrast
-grr pillowshading
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 01, 2008, 05:29:17 pm
Right on tocky! I really prefer a lot of what you did in that edit :)
Also, although I agree with your comments in general, I am confused:
How was the original "pillow shading" and the eidt not?
It seems pretty much like the same technique, only using more of the 2nd brightest tone.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to be constructive!
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: tocky on September 02, 2008, 03:04:22 am
Man, pillow shading is the wrong term, really, and maybe I need a fresh one. It's the back and shoulder muscles, mainly. it looks like you've built him out of spheres in an old style 3d program, it doesn't look like chunks of flesh. The ring-shaped contours of one colour layered on top of the next, making perfect round oval shapes, like layers of sedimetary rock - that's wrong, it's too clean, light doesn't hit things like that.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: AlexHW on September 02, 2008, 01:53:34 pm
right now his torso isn't very clear, at the moment it seems like the head is popping out of his torso.. try and make his torso look like it is more bent rather than straight up. work on the pelvis area and stomache to suggest the angles better and push out the lower back more.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Dr. Kylstien on September 04, 2008, 12:34:58 am
Man, pillow shading is the wrong term, really, and maybe I need a fresh one. It's the back and shoulder muscles, mainly. it looks like you've built him out of spheres in an old style 3d program, it doesn't look like chunks of flesh. The ring-shaped contours of one colour layered on top of the next, making perfect round oval shapes, like layers of sedimetary rock - that's wrong, it's too clean, light doesn't hit things like that.
Phong shading? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phong_shading)  :D
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 04, 2008, 09:35:24 am
tocky, i hear you.
makes sense.
thats what i'm trying to learn, how to shade (non-dithered) in ways that don't suck.
any tips here would be great :)
alex, thanks.
slapped a new (ROUGH) take together with changes from feedback.
switched to true iso, seemed close enough, figured i might as well go for real iso.

(http://www.burningcottage.com/graphic_content/salvage_dog_iso.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: randomagain on September 04, 2008, 10:27:47 am
1st version with last version head
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: tocky on September 04, 2008, 05:28:26 pm
Randomagain, that isn't useful. Say why you think what you think.

I think you need meatier legs to hold that much weight. I'll post another edit, with more notes, but not today. Hit me up for it if I don't.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: tocky on September 05, 2008, 10:48:40 am
okay.

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/tocky/salvage-dogman-1.png)

general formal stuff:
i dragged his head up a couple pixels. The head covers most of his torso, but you probably need to draw his abdomen. As is, it's not clear how the legs connect up.
-negative space is handy: break the arms apart from the torso.
-I grew up the hands and feet. Big huge hands is probably just personal preference, but he really does need huge feet to hold up that much mass. Think about weight and balance when drawing legs.
-i'm not really an anatomy guy, so the muscles are pretty off, I just sort of guessed it out. I usually check this stuff against a book, or someone who know's what they're doing.

contrast:
basically, just try to avoid using the same colours in any areas that overlap. If this is a lone piece (not for a game or something) you could mess with the light source until it works out right, or sometimes you can just cheat, so long as it doesn't make it look wrong, just chuck in more colours to break it up. I think the black I added around his ears and the far side of his face is probably cheating, but it doesn't look too wrong to me. Another example, I wouldn't use the same colours on his left arm and left leg, because you'd lose track of what's what.

If you're going to do it this way, probably you need more shadow tones.

Apart from that, you want highlights on areas that you want to stand out. I've focused them mostly on his arms and eyebrows, but if you wanted to shift focus to teeth or whatever else, bright hilights there would probably be the way to go.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 06, 2008, 07:58:32 pm
rock'n edit, tocky!
thanks, i agree with your head positioning, points about negative space, and avoiding overlapping colors.
hopefully when animated, the movement will help create some separation of shapes.
i might try another shadow tone too, but trying to keep color count low for ease of animation.
my problem now is trying to get that back to appear hunched, while not having the pelvis be pushed back far enough to almost disappear as it is now.
but good stuff from you, much appreciated :)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 07, 2008, 08:09:16 pm
beefier legs, new colors, and attempt at making the shading more interesting with some vascular shapes.
the veins would be a pain to animate in a walk, but i cant think how else to "beat the sphere" shading which (as tocky points out) tends to make him appear as though assembled of balls.
any thoughts?

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_wip_current_02.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 08, 2008, 08:15:36 pm
Began roughly gearing up for animation, please let me know if you notice any major flaws:

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_ani-1.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Quake on September 08, 2008, 08:20:04 pm
I don't know if it's just me, but i seem to see that his head moves the opposite direction to the relation of the torso.

I mean like,..

When his head moves, his legs seem to just stay straight.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 09, 2008, 02:46:47 am
quake, not sure i'm feeling you.
for me, the head turn seems to read as going with the shoulders, which is intentional.
anyway, i critiqued the walk myself and realized i needed to track the feet in true iso space:

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_ani_current.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Bacteriophage on September 09, 2008, 03:17:08 am
The right leg (his right, our left) needs to extend forward just a slight bit more. Other than that, though, I don't see any problems yet.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: vagabondarts on September 09, 2008, 09:36:52 am
quake, not sure i'm feeling you.
for me, the head turn seems to read as going with the shoulders, which is intentional.
anyway, i critiqued the walk myself and realized i needed to track the feet in true iso space:

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_ani_current.gif)

wow thats a sharp edit... I didn't even notice that!  I wish I could have eyes for my own stuff like you do for yours.  I'd not miss as many mistakes
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 09, 2008, 09:48:17 pm
well, thanks, here's more critique:
the colors are boring.
i don't think they will contribute much to effective separation of shapes when animated.
so... i came up with this eye wrecking palette.
minds were broken, bricks were shat, etc, etc.
too weird?

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_05.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 13, 2008, 11:04:29 pm
starting to color it in.
color color color.
hope its reading.

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_ani_05f.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Helm on September 14, 2008, 12:11:11 am
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_05.gif) (http://www.locustleaves.com/gargoyle.png)

Sorry for texture edit now that you've gone on to start animating, but I felt I should urge you to push the finish a lot more. First of all, your colors are nice, but your value set is not. I think the lower end needs to be darker, and the brighter end spread out more so that the top yellow doesn't merge with the white. It may be an issue of monitor calibration also, to some extent.

Then, the bulbous lighting blots, I am not a huge fan, they look like cancer a bit? I would suggest very very subtle breakup of the shapes with dither and styledither.

A lot of what I do in the edit is obtuse but not purposefully so. I look at it and try to think how I can maximise the capacity of every pixel, how I can make it give more information to the player. So in lack of a pure black that would segment more fully the various shapes so they don't mesh, I used an artificial sharpening effect! Look where the left (ours) arm meets the face, see how I made the contour hugged by a brighter edge? This helps the eye not think the face and hand are the same thing. There's a lot of pixel-level optimization which actually might not be wholy useful to you because firstly it's down to what rendering style you personally enjoy and secondly because I can't really... explain, why I think it's better to do it this way. At the end you can look at it and take from it what you wish. My main piece of advice is to care about the finish more. Your shapes and volumes are sound, the nutritional value, as it were, is there but the character is sometimes in the topping.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 14, 2008, 04:08:43 am
Speaking of nutrition, I've heard it said there is always room for jello... and a Helm edit.  :P
No, this is great. I can still go back over what I've blocked out in animation and work on some finish.
Actually, I have been hoping for just this kind of crit, having discerned that my surfaces were stinky smooth and uninteresting.
I'm trying to understand how to fix that, its challenging, but important.
Often times surface rendering and texturing seems more like some elusive method of dithering to me.
Anyway, thanks Helm! I definitely feel you on the values too.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Tobe on September 16, 2008, 06:25:24 pm
Hi there, salvage ; ) I'm not sure if this info came in too late, but I thought the leg were too slim and long for such a chunky body shape, it's hurting the characteristic a little.

Anyway, I really love the visual and even more so for the veins. Such nice touches.
The little spots that Helm added works really well too! I don't know why, but it makes me wanna work on a vector art version of him ; )
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 17, 2008, 07:52:08 am
thanks. well, i had some time to work on this more.
i can't quite wrap my brain around styledithering, so i'm just making surface detail by defining the musculature more.
this is also the new value set, how does it read?
i realize these are issues better resolved in the still idle pose, but i had animators itch (out of ointment) and wanted to see that arm and fist in motion.

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_03.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: tocky on September 17, 2008, 05:45:32 pm
That's an excellent palette edit. All coming together.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 18, 2008, 11:41:58 pm
thanks.
i cant seem to leave well enough alone tho, and have tweaked the colors some more.
here is the animation without the template i made.
still working on defining the musculature, but at least everything is blocked in.
i'm considering beefing up the limbs more.
also, not digging the airpunchwalk, will change more to a trundling sort of gait

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_14.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 19, 2008, 05:48:52 pm
isometric dog monsters are real, and this is how they realy walk/lumber
i checked.
sorry for the misunderstanding.

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_14-1.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: wah_wah_69 on September 20, 2008, 06:39:05 pm
Now he looks Evil:

(http://omploader.org/vcmVr/Evil.gif)

The gif has 11 colours while your had 8, I had to add 2 tones of red for the blinking eyes effect.

While looking at the palette I noticed you have 2 similar values #48283F and #442C3B one of then is only used for a stroke of the head as is shown in the image:

(http://omploader.org/vcmVu/kteto.JPG)

So my advice is leave room for extra colours for any effect you want to add later, but I suppose this is still wip and you already have thought about it.

Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on September 23, 2008, 09:56:05 pm
i think i will do some idle animations and barking or whatnot, but here is the main idea:

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_dog_monster_iso.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Larwick on September 23, 2008, 11:29:04 pm
His head needs to move up and right (out) more when turning, at the moment it's moving into his neck. At least, this is what i'm seeing. Hope that makes sense, just a small examination.  :y: Keep it up.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: tehwexxl0rz on September 24, 2008, 02:26:54 am
I suggest you shade the outline instead of making it all that near-black color. On the parts where the light hits, the contrast is a bit distracting.
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Salvage on October 01, 2008, 06:08:33 am
thanks for your eyes, guys.
calling this done... for a while at least.
but still taking c+c.

(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh18/Salvage_edits/salvage_iso_dog-monster.gif)
Title: Re: [WIP] dog monster!
Post by: Emtch on October 01, 2008, 02:06:36 pm
I think it looks weird how his wrists are angled outwards when he runs. Usually when running, the wrists are turned inwards.