Pixelation

Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: spajjder on May 22, 2021, 09:09:12 pm

Title: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 22, 2021, 09:09:12 pm
Hello

Here I am again going after a too big sprite. I would really appreciate if you spot something that look off.
Are the lights and shapes looking ok? I am especially confused about the back hand and the right foot of the creature.

Also, how would you go about adding on a scale design as this is supposed to be some sort of croc man?

Thank you in advance!

(https://i.imgur.com/2ggm3Hz.png)

Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 22, 2021, 10:18:48 pm
It looks pretty great. I'd only do some minor changes, smoothing things out here and there... Avoiding tiny gaps in between those claws, having stronger shadows to emphasize form... But it's all a matter of personal preference, I think.

(https://i.imgur.com/x18S7dM.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/xzBWqb3.gif)

I believe the rest looks fine.



Oh, I see a problem with its left hand now:

(https://i.imgur.com/HvDhfSF.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/jN3pyRj.gif)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: cels on May 22, 2021, 10:56:41 pm
fskn's edit is good.  :)

Personally, I feel that it's a bit odd to have the furthest hand darkened to indicate distance (because i don't see how it would be in shadow) and not do the same with the furthest leg. I know that the torso is twisting, but still.
I would also suggest that you try to reduce noise and gather clusters in a way that accentuates its crocodile scales. Use lines that wrap around the shapes, curving different ways depending on the angle. This will both help establish texture, form and three-dimensionality.
I'm also wondering if you really want/need those sharp outlines on everything. It's kind of hard to give the spikes proper shading with dark outlines. Fskn's edit helps, but the dark edges on the bright spikes kind of hide the light source instead of indicating it properly. At least in my eyes.

Take my opinion with a line of salt.

(https://andrewhall.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/how-to-draw-legs.jpg)

Forgive the crappy edit, made in haste. I hope it is enough to get the point across.

(https://i.imgur.com/UPWed9w.png)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: SeinRuhe on May 23, 2021, 03:09:58 am
Either I'm getting really slow or you guys are getting really fast giving advice :blind:

So, Spajjder, I like your lizardman design, I also like the pose a lot for some reason, looks sassy in a good way.

As for critique, I would make some edits here and there:

- Before everything, I can't stress this enough but be really mindful of your lightsource and what planes look directly at it since this is what determines value changes!

- I may be miss reading this but the hand on our right seems to have 5 fingers instead of 4 like the one on our left. (Edit: Fskn already pointed this lol)

- Anatomy on the shoulders/collarbone seems a bit funky, reference some humans and lizards for this, animals share a lot in common and depicting this subtleties right should improve your work substantially.

- This is personal preference and is not a rule, rather a tool, but if you have cold shadows, light may look better warm. Of course color is relative so in case you decide to pick this advice, just make the color of the light feel warmer, no need to make it yellow or red.

- Texturing is really hard in my opinion, so try to focus first on the big shapes. If your work looks cohesive only shading the basic stuff chances are that texture will look great on it.

Here's an example on textures that I always loved and it happens to have scales too https://twitter.com/ichi_et/status/676402249300488194 (https://twitter.com/ichi_et/status/676402249300488194)

And here's my pseudo edit, it has zero cleanup so careful

(https://i.imgur.com/00G6cmT.png)

PD: I may revisit this with a bit more time next week, also did a Lizardman a couple years back that needs revision so your piece is the ideal testing ground :D
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 23, 2021, 04:49:37 am
Cool looking lizard dude! I think you need to be careful about prioritizing detail over form, form always comes first. For my edit I tried to make sure the largest forms read and I also tried to fix up the anatomy. Like SeinRuhe said try to think about where your light source is and stick to it. It might even help to a light a sphere to the side as a reference. For me I picked a different position than him coming more from the top rightish (from our POV). I threw in some reflected light to give a better sense of form. I gave his back arm and back leg less contrast as a design decision I felt it helped him read better.

I'd recommend trying to add detail mainly at the transition from light to shadow (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f2/64/17/f26417ece2ad240d0f3c517b157e844c.jpg (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f2/64/17/f26417ece2ad240d0f3c517b157e844c.jpg)). This is the place you'll typically see detail but, like I said, I highly recommend making sure form reads. Don't forgo form for detail.

I know he's technically not human but he is some sort of lizard/reptile-human hybrid and anatomy will help add some believability to your character. If you want to get more into anatomy there is a book by Michael Hampton or you can check out Proko's series on anatomy.

The Edit:
(https://i.imgur.com/l5dUYIS.png)

Anatomy Breakdown: https://i.imgur.com/iqMW34r.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/iqMW34r.jpg)

(https://www.proko.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/primary-secondary-tertiary-forms-of-the-arm.jpg)
Proko showing what to think of when drawing and shading form. Primary should show through to secondary and tertiary always.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 23, 2021, 07:00:54 am
Hi!

I really love all of your redesigns! I went to bed and woke up with this, so nice! Thank you guys so much.
Im happy I got so many different designs to look at, and I feel like I want to implement things from all. I will repost once Ive done some edits, but I do not work as fast as you do I am afraid :D

I got some really good reference for anatomy, and for scales. Is it a bad idea to try to get across both? Im thinking maybe i can only do some scaling details in the areas that are lit up, as details such as those are less noticeable in shadows?

fskin - I agree on the contrast, gonna try add more of it, and try to collect some clutter into clusters. Very helpful gif to see the difference there. I wonder why the green pixels on the underside of the spikes? And yes, the left hand has too many fingers :) Good find. thank you!

cels - thank you for advice - the texturing tips are good. I tried adding sort of a wire frame with a multiply layer, but it looked very cluttery. This way is much nicer. As for the legs, I see mine are a bit cluttery, I tried to get across some sort of texture, but I wasnt sure what I was doing. However, the big high light on the knee looks a little big to me. I sometimes try cut these up in the way I did on the shoulder, but not sure what gives a better effect. Is it generally better to stick to big, more simple shapes in terms of lights like those?
For the back leg and hand.. would it also work to lighten up the back hand?  You are right about the imbalance currently :D

SeinRuhe - I was really happy to see this much response :)
I would love to see your lizard from the past!  and feel welcome to do your own take on this one for sure!
So about lights. That light ball next to it is very helpful. To me, on it it looks like the light comes from the top, on the lizard the light is from the top and sort of from the left. Your arm looks much better with the cluster of light rathen than my strings. However, if the light would come from the top, or a bit more to the right, I find it a bit hard to figure out how the light would work on the arm, since the light would be somewhat more parallel to underarm itself. If it from the top and the arm is at an angle, wouldnt it look rather similar to how it looks now?
I really like your colors. I want to place this creature in a sort of dank and cold area, while I do feel yours is warmer and nicer to look at, how to think about the area it is placed in?
Thank you!

bengo - your lizard looks pretty dang cool too, looks like something from Metroid now with the colors and the eye :)
as for the critique - form first - got it.  I can clearly see the form of the muscles of the arm. When you say adding detail in the transition from shadow to light.. you mean the half tones? for example, I see in the arm that the most dithering is at the light and mid light, while shadows and high light looks more clustered.
Yea, I am doing a set of creatures from Oblivion right now, but once I finish, I am seriously gonna try to study more regular art, including anatomy. It creates problems for me every time I try to create bigger sprites. :)

Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 23, 2021, 07:13:58 am
bengo - your lizard looks pretty dang cool too, looks like something from Metroid now with the colors and the eye :)
as for the critique - form first - got it.  I can clearly see the form of the muscles of the arm. When you say adding detail in the transition from shadow to light.. you mean the half tones? for example, I see in the arm that the most dithering is at the light and mid light, while shadows and high light looks more clustered.
Yea, I am doing a set of creatures from Oblivion right now, but once I finish, I am seriously gonna try to study more regular art, including anatomy. It creates problems for me every time I try to create bigger sprites. :)
At the terminator line you want to add detail, where the light transitions into shadow. You'll see a lot of artists do this. Still you need to make sure, like I keep saying ;) , the primary and secondary form is still readable through the detail.

As for anatomy studies this itself could be one! I gave you an anatomy drawover showing all the different muscles. What will help is to reference an anatomy sheet and look up 'origin' and 'insertion' for specific muscles (for instance- 'origin and insertion bicep' and you'll see it connects from the scapula to the radius, part of the lower arm, bone). You can also do something called an 'ecorche' where you draw muscle on top of a figure, typically with obvious anatomy sticking out like someone muscular or very skinny, and of course you can use an anatomy book as reference. Andrew Loomis' Figure Drawing For All It's Worth can be found online for free and has the anatomy correct for you to reference.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: cels on May 23, 2021, 08:46:12 am
cels - thank you for advice - the texturing tips are good. I tried adding sort of a wire frame with a multiply layer, but it looked very cluttery. This way is much nicer. As for the legs, I see mine are a bit cluttery, I tried to get across some sort of texture, but I wasnt sure what I was doing. However, the big high light on the knee looks a little big to me. I sometimes try cut these up in the way I did on the shoulder, but not sure what gives a better effect. Is it generally better to stick to big, more simple shapes in terms of lights like those?
For the back leg and hand.. would it also work to lighten up the back hand?  You are right about the imbalance currently :D

It seems like you've rolled double sixes and received feedback from 3 very talented people, so my best advice is to listen what they have to say first. Having said that, I definitely think it's easier to start with big and simple shapes before very slowly adding more texture. At least until one has a lot of experience. The other edits are far better than mine when it comes to shading and details on the knee, etc but I agree with SeinRuhe's advice of focusing on big shapes first.  :)

For the back leg and hand, it does work to lighten up the back hand. However, brightness (making closer objects brighter), hue (warm vs cold colors) and contrast (high contrast on near objects) are very standard ways of creating depth for this type of sprites / characters. It makes it easier to immediately recognize which parts are closer and which parts are further away. But it's also a form of exaggeration and you can decide to have equal brightness, hue and contrast on all limbs if you prefer. (However, I definitely agree with what the others are saying about being specific about light sources, no matter what you decide)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 23, 2021, 01:55:15 pm
I wonder why the green pixels on the underside of the spikes?
I could say that the light that's hitting the back of the creature reflects back up to hit the spikes... But actually I was just trying to find one color from those you used that had the value that I wanted to see there.
It works both ways, though, I think.

And yes, the left hand has too many fingers :) Good find. thank you!
There's still one too many, though, if you compare it to the creature's right hand. The thumb should be kind of hidden away, maybe the claw would be poking out, but not the back/top of the finger.
I noticed it some time after I did that edit but was too lazy to go back and redo that part.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 23, 2021, 02:42:41 pm
So one thing that confuse me a bit with values is, if something is further away, it would be darker, and the same for something that is not facing the light. But when there are somewhat complex forms, do you start going by another palette?
If I have muscles sticking out, then the lighter they are the closer they come to me the observer in one way, but the lightest part should hit the direction the light comes from right? So.. if I have a dark silhouette and start to add forms, they would be lighter than the dark. But then once I go to higher values  I get a bit confused.
The form coming out towards the viewer would be shadowed at the parts that do not go against the light but then I will break the form I just established..  not sure why I find this hard to grasp. I sort of just wing it when I pixel.

And I think the high light would be the spot where the light bounces directly into the viewers eye.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: SeinRuhe on May 23, 2021, 02:50:58 pm
SeinRuhe - I was really happy to see this much response :)
I would love to see your lizard from the past!  and feel welcome to do your own take on this one for sure!
So about lights. That light ball next to it is very helpful. To me, on it it looks like the light comes from the top, on the lizard the light is from the top and sort of from the left. Your arm looks much better with the cluster of light rather than my strings. However, if the light would come from the top, or a bit more to the right, I find it a bit hard to figure out how the light would work on the arm, since the light would be somewhat more parallel to underarm itself. If it from the top and the arm is at an angle, wouldn't it look rather similar to how it looks now?
I really like your colors. I want to place this creature in a sort of dank and cold area, while I do feel yours is warmer and nicer to look at, how to think about the area it is placed in?
Thank you!

Well, this technique works both ways, the rule of thumb goes: If the light is warm, shadows should be cold. If the light is cold, shadows should be warm. This light behaviour really happens on nature most of the time, is just really subtle. There are lots and lots of exceptions and you can also completely ignore this, but is a nice thing to have to in mind to make colors look pleasing in a sort of easy way.

(https://i.imgur.com/AoDFSGQ.png)

The way light interacts with planes is simple, yet really *really* really hard if you're still getting the hang of it. My suggestion in this case is to leave the rationalization aside for a bit and simply grab a flashlight, your cellphone, a candle or any source of light, lock yourself in the darkest place you can find and see how light interacts with your arm from any given angle. This exercise should give you the insight you are looking for.

The light ball is just a reminder for the lightsource direction, you can use it or not as long as you have the direction clear on your mind.

If you want to give a look to my lizard here it is, is really old and have lots and lots of mistakes so you shouldn't take it as an example!

(https://i.imgur.com/p7oPKoz.png)


EDIT: If you really, really want to understand how light works you could also read the book "How To Render" or "Color and Light", For what I understand seems like the concept that is confusing you is Light Decay/Falloff.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: cels on May 23, 2021, 02:55:02 pm
Some examples you may find helpful, if you're not already familiar with them.

https://pixeljoint.com/p/61711.htm

(https://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/full/tetra_1x.gif)
(https://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/full/khezu_1x.gif)

http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/130816.htm
http://pixeljoint.com/pixelart/139814.htm

It's possible to use the some of the same colours for near and distant limbs and/or keep a very restricted palette.

I'll leave it to the others (like SeinRuhe) to explain it, I just like to imitate other people.  :-[
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 23, 2021, 05:12:37 pm
Okay, so let's pretend for once I'm not the lazy bastard that I truly am. Then if I wanted to emphasize the musculature of the creature, while still keeping some texture in there, I would do something more like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/vXR7OHc.png) (https://i.imgur.com/nEMAVlD.gif)

I don't think I would add the sternocleidomastoid (phew! what a word), though. Or wouldn't make it so prominent.

PS: I keep finding colors that could be used elsewhere on the creature...
PPS: "The grabbing hands grab all they can..." (they look more like scratching hands, though...)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 23, 2021, 08:27:08 pm
Really digging the new design fskn

and thank you again guys for your advice.

I started redoing the arm.. does this make any sense?

(https://i.imgur.com/291KPb2.png)

gonna move on the more parts... gotta say, feel hard not to copy once I have a guide right in front of me. gonna redo the hand a bit more, but tried to implement the muscles your guide showed bengo
Ill post again once i get some more done. Just wondered about the arm for now
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 23, 2021, 08:49:06 pm
It's looking better! Forms are reading much more clearly and they make more sense.

If you need to mimic what I did that's fine whatever helps you understand. I gave you that anatomy breakdown for a reason. Just don't directly trace or copy it directly over. I don't think that will help you learn. Something that might help you would be understanding how the pectoralis major fits into everything:
(https://thumbor.kenhub.com/kx1IJB8-GdLYiAs5v7HL4oLsOi8=/fit-in/800x1600/filters:watermark(/images/logo_url.png,-10,-10,0):background_color(FFFFFF):format(jpeg)/images/library/7538/uocvsEB1mv28x3rpCNcOOA_M._deltoideus_01.png)
(https://www.physio-pedia.com/images/thumb/8/86/Deltoid_muscle_Wikipedia.png/250px-Deltoid_muscle_Wikipedia.png)
(https://www.getbodysmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Pectoralis-Major-Muscle7-574x550.png)

The bicep will go in first, then the pectoralis major will cover that and then the deltoid will go on top of all of that. I tried my best to show it in my anatomy breakdown too. You're not really showing this bicep-pec-deltoid connection in your latest update and I think that would help that area if you did at least a bit. The pectoralis major does connect on the humerus (thats the upper arm bone) after-all so it's going to have to reach over there.

P.S. I would consider Selout (selective outlining) or getting rid of the line in areas altogether.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 23, 2021, 09:24:45 pm
Besides that, I think you should make the trapezius more obvious. The separation between it and the deltoid.

This part here, which funnily enough I have the perfect gif to illustrate:

(https://i.imgur.com/GYR5o0X.gif)

Of course your monster does not need to be super duper fit, buuut...
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 24, 2021, 09:29:08 am
Hello again

I tried reworking the arm a bit using your reference quite heavily
does it look better?

not sure if the bicep clearly goes under the pec.
Also a bit confused about the bicep brachialis relation.

Tried to implement some light hint of scales and I added one more color for the undersides of the arms and to smooth of some other places

(https://i.imgur.com/077UXky.png)

*edit  perhaps i can make the trapezius a bit bigger... hm.
Muscles are good fskn... :)  Not sure why, but I think they might not read so well from a distance now. should I use darker lines?

I actually am trying to make this guy here, but a bit modified.  thinking of adding the weird chin thing now that I added shadows under the jaws

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Daedroth


edit 2

Changed a bit more

Now on the left the trap is bigger, not sure what looks better

started to work on back leg and changed the tongue and chest a bit. Also slights changed the pecs

(https://i.imgur.com/t0bueeO.png)

edit 3

(https://i.imgur.com/BLlrVUC.png)

So here it is... left one has larger trap and the chin flap thingy.

Wonder what you guys think look better

for the chin flip thing I looked at this

https://images.uesp.net/2/2f/ON-concept-Daedroth.png
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 24, 2021, 05:27:31 pm
The thing is that the deltoid should connect to the clavicle (in the front, and the top of the scapula in the back, going around the shoulder) at the side, not at the top. At the top there's bone showing up. So there should (IMHO) be a clear separation there at the collar bone.

You could see it like this too: The deltoid starts at the same height as the pecs. Not above.

Here are some references I gathered for you:
https://imgur.com/a/do23h7m

Also check out these models that you can spin around and study on Sketchfab:
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/ecorche-male-musclenames-anatomy-33162ec759e04d2985dbbdf4ec908d66
https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/anatomy2-39d4ecb5f3cd4485b534405d7714d4a3



EDIT:
Okay, my turn on drawing the muscles on top of the monster.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZdvQ66o.gif)

So, on the arm, the deltoid goes over everything. Then comes the pecs, and then the mass of the brachioradialis and extensor carpis radialis longus on top of the brachialis and biceps brachii. The brachioradialis kind of connects with the tendons of the triceps on the back, apparently...
The biceps brachii sits on top of the brachialis muscle, which acts kind of like a cushion behind the biceps. It's not just that thin stripe there (in blue).

(https://i.imgur.com/bbQWdHX.gif)

This is the part I was talking about that, I believe, needs a better, clearer separation.
BUT... This is pixel art we're talking about here, and because of the resolution some of that may not appear.
AND... Some of what I drew is my interpretation of your own drawing.

Now that i look at it, there's something funky going on with the leg too. That muscle that comes straight down at the front of the leg, the rectus femoris doesn't go down as much as a muscle.
Here's an illustration so that I can keep on being lazy and not draw it myself (also wouldn't be as accurate):

(https://i.imgur.com/0wUhJko.png)

---

Here's a couple more illustrations of that:

(https://i.imgur.com/bg9Q8ZE.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/KLy2H8m.png)


And one of the back of the torso, because why not:

(https://i.imgur.com/2e1ZHLK.png)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 24, 2021, 06:38:36 pm
So I looked at the 3d model.

If I look correctly, my whole arm is too high...
Since the colar bone are at the same level where the deltoid ends not where it starts...

edit

Not sure... does this look better?  i changed the legs and the arm.. the pec entry over the bicep and under the deltoid looks... hm
not sure if I should light up the path from the colar bone to the bicep or not

(https://i.imgur.com/kcrk9q4.png)

Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 24, 2021, 06:53:48 pm
So I looked at the 3d model.

If I look correctly, my whole arm is too high...
Since the colar bone are at the same level where the deltoid ends not where it starts...

Yep, exactly!
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 24, 2021, 07:29:50 pm
A small anatomy note- On the forearm, I just want to clarify that Supinator Longus (Which is what Loomis calls it) and Brachioradialis + Extensor Carpi Radialis Longus are the same. It is technically two muscles but from the surface they tend to blend seamlessly together (hence why Loomis combined the two so it could be simplified).

Like fskn has shown bone is very important in drawing it goes hand in hand with the musculature. That's why I advised to look up 'origin and insertion' points for muscles but I should have mentioned to really look into the skeleton too. The clavicle is a very important bone and does infact separate the trapezius and the delt and pec. That being said since this is a creature there is some room to mess with the shapes and proportions of the anatomy (and keep in mind because of the scale, like fskn mentioned, there's only literally so much room for anatomical detail) but don't take that as an excuse to avoid putting in the extra work to make it believable. There's a huge difference between a conscious decision and avoiding something because it's harder than expected to implement.

Last thing to note here- The forearm's muscles change position depending on how the wrist/hand is rotated. You have supination (palm out facing towards your body "asking for soup") and pronation (palm away from your body). For your sprite that forearm is currently pronated, here is a picture of the forearm pronated: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Forearm_muscles_back_superficial.png/250px-Forearm_muscles_back_superficial.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Forearm_muscles_back_superficial.png/250px-Forearm_muscles_back_superficial.png)

Looking better, keep it up!
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 24, 2021, 07:36:13 pm
You have supination (palm out facing towards your body "asking for soup")...
Man, that is one hell of a mnemonic! :lol:
I was just telling myself these days how I can never differentiate between supination and pronation. Now I just might!
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 24, 2021, 07:44:05 pm
So.. my last entry I did update it with a new sprite - but then there were a few posts while I was edititing, so just wanted to make sure it wasnt lost in the back in case you look at latest posts : )

(https://i.imgur.com/kcrk9q4.png)

I sort of tried to align the colar bone somewhat with the trap deltoid seperation.
and added a sinew going in under the deltoid from the pec. should the the deltoid go further down still? and does the pec part look strange now?

Bengo - I am trying!
I am learning a lot too :D
reading into the arm now.. looking at my own when I move my hand


edit

Made peck more prominent.. moved the entire deltoid down a step

(https://i.imgur.com/uSMKBRE.png)

Ps. how do I karma? I want to give you.... seriously thank you guys


Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 24, 2021, 08:08:51 pm
Quick-ish edit to show how I would do it, how I see it, etc.
(that's over your second to last edit, spajjder)

(https://i.imgur.com/GVNP05W.png) (https://i.imgur.com/U2a089V.gif)

Not super accurate on the shading, more trying to make things more apparent and readable to you.

---

That's very Capcom-ish, isn't it? haha
Actually, it would be good for you to check out their sprites too, especially this one:
https://www.spriters-resource.com/resources/sheets/71/74176.png?updated=1460967574

---

EDIT: Did you see the refs I posted on page 2?
https://pixelation.org/index.php?topic=66079.msg258288#msg258288

EDIT 2: NM, I think you did because you changed the leg muscle.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 24, 2021, 08:42:50 pm
Hello there

Did another edit

(https://i.imgur.com/kFgbszU.png)

Gonna go to bed now. but thank you so much for all your help today.
hope it looks better now
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 24, 2021, 08:54:24 pm
IMO it looks much better, yes, and definitely much better than what you started with, good job!

Let's put them side by side for comparison's sake:

(https://i.imgur.com/2ggm3Hz.png) (https://i.imgur.com/kFgbszU.png)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 24, 2021, 10:06:45 pm
Hello there

Did another edit

(https://i.imgur.com/kFgbszU.png)

Gonna go to bed now. but thank you so much for all your help today.
hope it looks better now

(https://i.imgur.com/25Xr61j.png)

Much better. I've done a small edit that reduces the color count, lightens the lights and darkens the darks, made the blood look more like blood (I was under the impression that was blood otherwise I recommend removing it), given the chest piece battle scars, clarifies the forms a bit more. That chest piece would not get much light since light couldn't hit it and it'd get darker as it'd go inward more.

If the forum were still more alive I feel this could be considered on the 'featured' pixel art.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: cels on May 24, 2021, 11:42:06 pm
Amazing improvement.

Nobody has said anything about this but the lighting on the farthest foot looks a bit weird to me. Am I seeing this wrong? Maybe I'm just confused about the geometry.

(https://i.imgur.com/UWHFu0I.png)
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 25, 2021, 02:19:36 am
Amazing improvement.

Nobody has said anything about this but the lighting on the farthest foot looks a bit weird to me. Am I seeing this wrong? Maybe I'm just confused about the geometry.

I'm not sure, thus why I didn't say anything, but you could be right on that.
I guess the main thing is that the front of the torso should be more in shadow like what bengo said. Then the leg would also be in shadow. The top of the foot, though, should probably be darker.

Considering the position of the light source, the torso would cast a shadow on the farthest leg, but not necessarily on the foot.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 25, 2021, 05:13:23 am
Hello!

fskn - I was looking at that too. Ive saved every step. It has been quite the lesson :)

Bengo - It is not blood, but rather a skinflap with high saturation.. sort of like a rooster.
I am making a set of creatures from the game Oblivion - and this is is my take on the Daedroth.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Daedroth_(Oblivion)

This more aggressive color I took from this pic
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Daedroth.png

Not sure if it makes sense as a whole, but my partner thought it looked more scary with :)

cels

Yea, the foot is what confused me from the start. I don't quite get how the light would fall at that angle. I will look up all the references all you guys told me about in detail. Thank you for your kind words :)

To all
I will try another edit once Im back from work. I am happy this forum is still alive and you guys are here! Although it has been more active in the past? This feels like the warmest place to post anything for sure.
And are any of you doing this on a professional level? Your skills are really good I think!

Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: fskn on May 25, 2021, 05:29:42 am
fskn - I was looking at that too. Ive saved every step. It has been quite the lesson :)
o7

And are any of you doing this on a professional level? Your skills are really good I think!
I'm guessing at least bengo and seinruhe are pros. cels is trying to convince us he's a noob like me, and I'm here just having fun, really.
The forums were way more active at one time, yes, and most people that used to come here seem to be posting on the Discord now, those who are not just on Twitter, but I can't stand Discord. It's like a big chatroom and it's a mess. Forums are way better organized.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 25, 2021, 05:36:38 am
Bengo - It is not blood, but rather a skinflap with high saturation.. sort of like a rooster.
I am making a set of creatures from the game Oblivion - and this is is my take on the Daedroth.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Daedroth_(Oblivion)

This more aggressive color I took from this pic
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Daedroth.png
I think there's definitely a readablity issue going on and I do wanna say doesn't really read much like a Deadroth. Looks nice just doesn't look super like that race. Might've been good to mention this initially; getting your intention down helps but no biggie.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 25, 2021, 05:46:28 am
Hello.

I am ok with it not looking like in the game, since they have had quite a lot of iterations over the years.
Sorry for not mentioning it from the start though.

But as a rooster, skin flap thing, is it unreadable?

about the colors. I like your retake on it, gonna study in detail what happened when I get home.
The second to darkest color seems more red now, warmer.
Is it always a goal to try to limit colors as much as possible? Or is it more to try to make two similar colors into one?
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: bengo on May 25, 2021, 06:00:58 am
Hello.

I am ok with it not looking like in the game, since they have had quite a lot of iterations over the years.
Sorry for not mentioning it from the start though.

But as a rooster, skin flap thing, is it unreadable?

about the colors. I like your retake on it, gonna study in detail what happened when I get home.
The second to darkest color seems more red now, warmer.
Is it always a goal to try to limit colors as much as possible? Or is it more to try to make two similar colors into one?

Technically you can use as many colors as you'd like, some pixel artists are like that, however having a limited, shared palette does tend to give more cohesiveness to the piece. It can depend a little on personal taste. I think limiting your palette or being frugal forces you to value the color you're using more and really think about its use in the over-all picture. What does this color add? How does it help the piece? Does it help it read better? Push more contrast? Add more interest? Etc. It certainly makes it easier to create and modify your piece. Less to juggle around so you can focus more. I don't even think the palettes I use tend to be that restricted (though I tend to start off very simple, 1 light color 1 dark color per material/thing) but like I said I think it's good to do.

P.S. The flap does look unreadable does come off as blood just distracts a bit from the sprite.
Title: Re: Lizardman - please critique
Post by: spajjder on May 25, 2021, 02:02:39 pm
Hello again.

changed the foot a bit but I sort of like how it looks now with the lit up breastplates and colors.

I will try out your advice with colors on my next one Bengo.

I really want to thank you all for all your input, bengo, cels, fskn and SeinRuhe

Here is with and without rooster flap

(https://i.imgur.com/WWypzpP.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/aYEhXC4.png)