Pixelation
Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: JackBauer24 on October 13, 2007, 05:03:23 pm
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Hey guys, Jack here with something different. Its a German locomotive used during, you guessed it, World War II. Its a pretty cool machine and I thought I would try my hand at it. Several months later, here it is. The problem is that its a bit flat. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to let me know. Any and all C+C is most welcome. Cheers!
Jack
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/AgentJackBauer/BR-52Locomotiveandtender.png)
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Do you have any reference for us? That way we can analyze the shapes of the original machine and try to help you put some volume into your picture :3
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Im trying to find some good examples. The thing is that I based it off an image that didnt really show shading, shadows, etc. That and other pics that cant be viewed that easily. Here is one thats easier to get to:
http://vincesgallery.smugmug.com/gallery/1741742#86143447 (http://vincesgallery.smugmug.com/gallery/1741742#86143447)
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Ok folks, heres a little update for you. Thanks!
Jack
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/AgentJackBauer/BR-52-Locomotive-and-tender.png)
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Check out this site for a train:
http://www.mslugdb.com/main/gallery/sprites/objects.html (http://www.mslugdb.com/main/gallery/sprites/objects.html)
For train tracks and even ww2 destroyed village: (warning: lotsa pictures so hopefully you're not on restricted internet quota)
http://www.mslugdb.com/main/gallery/sprites/bg.html (http://www.mslugdb.com/main/gallery/sprites/bg.html)
Yeah, you're picture is on dead on perspective, lacks texture, atmosphere. I suggest studying the metal slug sprites.
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Ok, so if I want my pics to do well I need to change the perspectives? If so, that would be a major jump for me. Man this stuff is hard...
Jack
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You can have a picture that has dead on perspective and it can still be visually intereting. But the perspective is one thing that in my opinion contributes to a boring piece. It is good for an illustration of how to assemble a plastic model train, because it is clear and detailed, but it isn't what i like. I like metal slug sprites for one thing, and if you want you can try doing pieces in a similar style. Go for interesting shapes, lots of texture, interesting lighting, etc. study the sprites and backgrounds. You don't need to use perspective yet if its too big of a hassle.
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I would prefere not to change perspective, but I do want to add texture, etc. Please...is there any tutorials out there that you know of because I am having no luck finding what I want. Thanks.
Jack
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I think the perspective is kind of bland, it works though. I think you're lines are to sharp, soften them some AA. It'll make them seem thousands times more realistic, also will help round out some objects.
I made some edits on some pieces to give you some ideas. Some some some.
1(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/SariK/jbtrain1.png)
2(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/SariK/jbtrain2.png)
3(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/SariK/jbtrain3.png)
1. Tried showing you how things can look rounded. I obviously need practice.
2. Isn't my edit a bit closer to reality? A little less contrast on those pipe, probably too little but maybe somewhere in between yours and mine.
3. The bird is a bit neater and there's some volume on it. I'm under the assumption it was a 3D object and not something painted on the train. $
Play around with AA, it's a nice technique that really smooths things out.
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Perspective or not, Jack's current style/approach from what I can tell is illustrative/technical and has a certain charm and quality that I find quite refreshing.
Agreed, these pieces are extremely tight in execution and do lack a dramatic dynamic that others strive for but they do appear acutely accurate.
Jack enjoys the ww2 era and has a particular penchant for mechanized units.
Jack likes to work BIG and likes detail.
What I want to ask Jack is what HE wants to get out of his work? Do you want drama? Do you want the pieces to be explosive and dynamic? Or do you want the pieces to be what they are - colored technical layouts?
If the answer is dramatic, dynamic explosive, you have a lot to learn in terms of composition, perspective and lighting. If you the answer is otherwise, then I don't see where you're going wrong. (Asides from perhaps getting a bit more adept at anti aliasing)
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baccaman, you're a hero! This is the exact thing I think that pixelation-ers should try to think a bit more of! I mean, we're already the absolutely best art critique forum on the net, but this is kind of a flaw I see, it's like.. we're all striving to accomplish the same kind of ideals, which makes us conform in the end O: A bit.
It's like we're trying to find the perfect techniques and then we try to make others use them aswell, which makes us all conform to the same techniques.
No problem with that, though, really. It's not like there's any chance that we'll loase our individuality, it's just that we give, eh, kind of the wrong kind of critique to people like jack bauer :D
Anyways!
I think things that really WOULD improve your pictures is learning how to anti-alias your lines. Jonathanofdrain actually made some sweet stuffs there. You should check them out.
I think your images would improve with some more unified color schemes and texture. Achieving texture in pixel art is hard, but there's a lot of ways to go to it.
MY advice would be to try to bring some sepia-toned goodness into your pictures, and some grime and texture, shadows and smoothness. It would clash wonderfully with the perfect perspective you're using.
And lastly, keep the perspective, do your thing. I'm liking it a lot :]
Plus, you've become way better with expressing volume and shadows, just do what you're doing now with the shading, but do it more. You're on the right track!
And lastly a challenge: Next piece you do, try to throw some perspective in there. Working small and isometric is a challenge that i think would fit you very well, even though it's different from your usual drill :]
Good luck!
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My edits(Mine on left compared to yours on the right):
(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3702/jack3vn9.gif)(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8499/jack4hn4.gif)
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/9339/jackpj3.gif)(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/9681/jack2gm1.gif)
I showed you these on AIM, but I figured I should show them here and go into more detail. What you mainly need is more contrast, a better color scheme, a definitive light source and just making things look 3D, you're not going to do this with a dark outline like the one you have. Use selective outlining, which is what I've done, to fix the problem of making it look more real. Your window didn't really look like a window, so I made it look reflective to fix this(The window is the only thing that really doesn't follow the light source, but meh), like I just mentioned, you should define the light source, your bars have a light source to the left, etc. It's really looking good and I can't wait to see how it progresses.
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Hey bengoshia, that's looking pretty rad O: The only thing I'm not really a fan of is the dotted outline on the handle.
The rest is a great improvement, good edit!
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Hey guys, Jack here with an update. I'm trying to integrate everything that was mentioned. Due to other stuff, not everything has been though. Mainly the window, the boiler, etc. Enjoy. As for color scheme, I don't understand what is wrong with it? Light source is overhead, slightly to the left side of the screen...Danke!
Jack
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e85/AgentJackBauer/German-military-train.png)
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You've come quite a ways so far. :y:
Concerning the color scheme...I found this on google:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/BR_52_Freiburg_2628.jpg/800px-BR_52_Freiburg_2628.jpg)
And nearly every other image that came up, shows this think as a red and black train. So if you're going on that, I'd say the colors are way off. But it looks like you are going for more of a camouflage coloring, which is fine, but I think your camo, or stripes, could use a little work right now. At the moment, it just looks like a bunch of random lines, which camo is, but it really doesn't feel camouflage-y. (btw, did Germans use tiger stripe camo in ww2? :-\)
Other wise it's on the right track (heh)...depending on if you're going for realism or a cartoon look, I'd play with the contrast of the lights and darks.
Can't wait to see more on this :y:.
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Hello there, the camo scheme in question is genuine. The example you showed me is the civilian version. Here is a refernce pic. While it is a model, I have it on good authority that its a genuine scheme.
Jack
http://www.2iemeguerre.com/blindes/images/br52m1.jpg (http://www.2iemeguerre.com/blindes/images/br52m1.jpg)
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the germans invented the best (IMO) camo pattern during ww2 that I know as splinter...
(http://camo.deepeeka.com/store/catalog/comouflage_images/german-army-splinter.jpg)
(http://camo.deepeeka.com/store/catalog/comouflage_images/Lufttwaffe.jpg)
really nice, geometric shapes.
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Yea, the camo was pretty good ;)
(http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/german-luftwaffe/abj.sized.jpg)
I think the train should be a lot dirtier and rustier, that would give it more life. It looks really sterile right now. Add some scratches and dents!
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Also, dents would be a nice touch, but where would they come from?
Bulletfire?
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Ok folks, gonna try to get some help. I really need it lol. I'm in dire needs of some serious rethinking on this project. The piece looks...in my opinion rather dull and unimanginative. The artist is sorely lacking any real grasp on dynamic art. This poor sap needs to nail this down or else he should quit the profession altogether. Here is his latest effort.
(http://www.gigafiles.co.uk/files/837/German-military-train.png)
Jack
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This lacks shading, I believe, and textures. Try and texture the wood, and that. Also, this is really big, I'd probably make it 1/4 of the current size... And don't use the spraycan! xD
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Your line work is excellent, that tank is very nice looking. What you should focus on, in my opinion, is dynamic lighting and textures. All pixelart is flat, it takes a lot of practice to trick the eye into believing the object in question is 3-dimensional. If you can, take a look at a real model train, move the light source around a bit and get a feel for how lighting works.
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The locomotive looks allright, maybe add some more depth to the wheels. Would be nice to see you complete the whole rest in that way. Now if you DO want to go for a dynamic piece and learn about perspective, make an outline / sketch on like less than half of this size and post it here, with reference, then I think lots of people will help you putting it into perspective.
PS: With 3 ortographic projections you can get great 2 points perspective drawings, saying this is the side projection, make a front and top and you can put it in basically any perspective.
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currently issue is Consistency. Can be fixed by
a) Give Black smoke some shading - but remember a darker outline. Spray can should not be used. Everything has a flat color and darker color for outline. This looks good but must be applied to everything including smoke and background. Also it is not applied to officer's face so this must be changed.
b) Make light source for all objects the same. Currently train is lit from above. Make the water tank also lit from above. Make all objects shaded.
c) make heights of soldiers the same.
Another suggestion: make white of pole less pure white.
Heres my 'overall plan' suggestion: massive canvas sizes suit your 'technical' style and 2d perspective. This would be the one I like the most. I would suggest making them bigger (ie contain even more stuff). The eboy stuff for instance looks like crap imo but they have 'value' because of the amount of things they have in the massive canvas that are interesting. Kinda like it'd be dumb to compare wheres wally to the mona lisa. I would suggest going down the wheres wally path: find a program that lets you use restricted palletes but also layers + gradient fills (quicker to use?), and just make big pieces - use whatever technique is most efficient but pleasing to the eye.
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The lines look fine from a drafting standpoint they look like a coloring book.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/SariK/jbtrain1.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/SariK/jbtrain2.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/SariK/jbtrain3.png)
Anti-Aliasing will make thinks look smoother. These aren't the best examples of it but they are examples none the less. In the real world things aren't separated the way you portray them.
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sharprm: When you say fill it with stuff do you mean more background stuff such as buildings, vehicles, etc? Also, I am wondering if I should drop the hills background. If you have an idea of what would be a better backdrop, I am all ears. Perhaps hills are a bit overly ambitious on my part. A new path would be perhaps a more industrial setup like warehouses, tall structures, etc. I am leaning towards a more dirty, rugged work environment with men working on various areas. As for the train, perhaps I should drop the truck bearing car and put in something else, more war-like such as a tank gun or something. Perhaps even an armored train car thrown in. I acknowledge that my style is pretty dull. I want to change that, but its difficult. Must be my version of quitting cold turkey. Thanks for listening lol.
JonathanOfDrain: Hey there. I would love to make things look a lot smoother. Just a matter of me figuring out how you guys work your magic. If you are getting the impression that I am not listening to a word of what you're saying, its not true. I am honestly trying to take your advise and work with it. I know it doesnt look that way but I am a chap who comes from the world of drawing because I find it fun and it helps me relax. It is true though that in the past and sometimes in the present I slip into lazy mode and thats something I am trying to address. Thanks for the help and keeping me real and sparing me no punches. I want to nail this out of the park eventually. One last thing is a replacement station. I didn't think the other one was impressive enough. The following post will have the update. Thanks!
Jack
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Here it is, a new version of the train station where there trains going by. It still is very much a WIP but I'm liking it allot better. Anyhow, here it is. Tell me what you think. Thanks!
WIP: (http://www.gigafiles.co.uk/files/837/StationTest.PNG)
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Hey guys, Jack here with something different. Its a German locomotive used during, you guessed it, World War II. Its a pretty cool machine and I thought I would try my hand at it. Several months later, here it is. The problem is that its a bit flat. If anyone has any ideas, feel free to let me know. Any and all C+C is most welcome. Cheers!
Jack
I can't offer a whole lot of anything, but a little thing i learned from a tutorial is that darker shades will take you farther than lighter ones. Lemme show you what i'm talking about here:
Edits on left, originals on right.
(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5094/germanmilitarytraingj9.png)
Not the best but i'm pressed for time so i did 'em in a hurry.
I can't help much with flat surfaces since those baffle me, but for rounded ones, by expanding the areas shaded by the darker..uhm..shades, it gives the illusion of a more rounded shape, rather than looking round near the sides and flat in the front.
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Your stuff is boring.
It's like a plan. I as no life, no fanzyness. If it's gray, you draw it gray. If it's blue, you draw it blue. That's not art. Art is drawing beautifull things. Things that are fun to watch.
Ok, so if ypou belive I'm right, here what you can do to make this pixel ART.
First, define a light source. This will give you an ambiance you can play with.
Second, change those borring colors into cool ones. A simple way to do this: Your shadow should not be only the same color with less light. It should be the same color with a blue tone, or less saturation.
Third, MAKE IT DYNAMIC! An other view angle could help. But moslty, there is nothing going on in your drawings. BAM! The train exploded! Something intersting.
Here's a quick rough to show you what I mean:
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6615/trainnp2.gif)
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Your stuff is boring.
It's like a plan. I as no life, no fanzyness. If it's gray, you draw it gray. If it's blue, you draw it blue. That's not art. Art is drawing beautifull things. Things that are fun to watch.
Ok, so if ypou belive I'm right, here what you can do to make this pixel ART.
First, define a light source. This will give you an ambiance you can play with.
Second, change those borring colors into cool ones. A simple way to do this: Your shadow should not be only the same color with less light. It should be the same color with a blue tone, or less saturation.
Third, MAKE IT DYNAMIC! An other view angle could help. But moslty, there is nothing going on in your drawings. BAM! The train exploded! Something intersting.
Here's a quick rough to show you what I mean:
(http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6615/trainnp2.gif)
Okay so it's boring because it doesn't conform to you standards of what "art" is? that's hardly fair. read baccaman21's response.
If he wants to go for realism that's his prerogative.
your criticism could hardly be considered constructive because you're basically telling him to start over and draw something else. not everyone wants to rip off metal slug.
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Ok, maybe I went a little to far. But I still think it as no personnality, you know. No charm.
But, I guess it's a matter of taste.
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I believe that I have already heard that its boring. Thats why I want to spice it up, without necessarily changing the view. I guess at this point I am trying to do overall layout. Perhaps I should focus on drawing the different parts of the scene, then coming back and making them look a little more dynamic. Thanks for the crit. folks.
Jack
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The lamp shades for lights on buildings seem to be angled away from us.
Next piece do it in 'eboy' style perspective pleeeeeaaase.
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I would...but, what is Eboy? At first I thought you had said EBay lol. As to the lamp shades, which ones? I don't believe the lights I have visible are...but appear that way.
Jack
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Use google image and 'eboy pixel art'.
I mean the lamp shades are drawn like we are slightly above them. Lets say a lamp shade had a cone shape. Looking exacly side on, this would look like a triangle. You might be drawing them correctly and thats just a feature of the shape of the lamp (ie. one above door on latest building) but I just wanted u to double check it.
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I guess I should clarify something. At this point in the game, it is my intent to do something that perhaps might not seem dynamic. It is, plainly put, a War locomotive idling at a station. I want to show a not so destructive setting during WWII. While that might sound like an oxy-moron, I do believe such a scene is possible. I hope that I have cleared some things up. I do value all your input. Thanks for reading and stay tuned.
Jack
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Hum... so this is a war game. What about making all those sprites a bit smaller. So you could show a lot more larger territory in the same screen? Just an idea.
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Hum... so this is a war game. What about making all those sprites a bit smaller. So you could show a lot more larger territory in the same screen? Just an idea.
Oops, I meant it as a figure of speech. I meant this far into the project, not a playable game. It started out mainly to see what I could achieve in terms of WWII scenes. Sorry to confuse.
Jack
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I really like this technical drawing stuff... personally I dont think its boring at all, and if it still just a wip, I cant wait to see the finished product.
Sombody mentioned that the trains might benefit from being scaled down... personally I agree with this, then maybe you can put more time into shading and lighting... also you might find it easier to detail the train if it were smaller. That being said, I dont mind the scale you chose, just seems like it would take a long time to make a finished product.
One critque that I noticed while admiring your work. The wheels look like there resting on the rails with no backing to keep the train in place, there should be part of the wheel going past the inside of the track to keep the train from falling off... If you going for realism, which I think you are, you might want to fix this before you get to far. In fact changing this now might actually be a bit of work as I notice some of the wheel placements are kinda close, and adding to the current wheels diameter might cause some overlapping.
I remember this piece a while back and thought about how cool it would be to animate. good job.
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http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/31063.htm
Take a look at this. Linewise it's very similar to yours, but the rendering is much better which is where I feel your piece falls short.
Hope it helps.
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I also made something similar in style (4 colours only though). http://robotriot.hokuten.net/img/cga_train2.gif
You really need to add textures and a light source. A lot of the parts on the train throw shadows or have reflective surfaces, this would really bring your picture to life. Of course, at this size, it's going to be a lot of work, as already mentioned.
I also noticed the wheels are off ... if you look at the photo you posted, you're missing that kind of disc on the wheel that actually keeps the train and the wagons on the track (I don't know the technical term for it). As it is now, it looks as if the wagons were balancing on the track.
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Hey, thanks for posting your work, it looks very appealing like a snapshot or something of a time past, I know with my own work, I always spend a lot of time deciding on the range of colours or contrast, etc between the midtones, highlights and shadows,("colour theory" ;) ) there's a few ways to easily adjust the levels on different programs, but I recommend looking into it, I adjusted the photo below to explain what I mean, think the one I used makes the blacks blacker and the whites whiter, and makes the saturation of colours stronger
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c37/deetech/range.jpg)
later!