Post by: jmgandalf on June 18, 2007, 09:20:50 pm
http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/06/14/how_they_do_it_sf_hd_remix
They're using photoshop all the way!! :huh:
Discuss
Post by: AlexHW on June 19, 2007, 12:47:32 am
I'm not sure about using the pixel version as a base though because you'll just get revamped graphics yet all the animations will be the same basically. Maybe they'll add more frames?
if they dont add any more frames im unsure how smooth it'll look at this scale.
also, there's alot of perspective/depth issues.
Post by: .TakaM on June 19, 2007, 01:07:04 am
(http://www.racketboy.com/images/ryu-sprites-large.jpg)
and well, I'm not really interested unless it plays like third strike, but has all the original street fighter cast
Post by: Conzeit on June 19, 2007, 02:23:56 am
thanks for the heads up! I'll look into their method =)
Post by: ptoing on June 19, 2007, 03:07:19 am
Post by: Akira on June 19, 2007, 09:00:45 am
IDK, it's good that they aren't going too far with the remix but maybe they aren't going far enough...
Post by: big brother on June 19, 2007, 03:43:43 pm
It doesn't seem like the artists are dealing with the granularity issue. In order to make the original pixel sprites more readable, compromises were made. It's easiest to see these in the hands, fingers, and feet. When everything is scaled up, the ratios stay the same, since the artists are just drawing over it.
The second problem I have with the process -- the artists seem to be taking each frame individually rather than in context with the others. As a result, I suspect a lot of the detail they add will float around. They artists seem to be relying on a lot of extraneous lines rather than constructing solid forms like good animators would.
Then of course, there's the anatomy problems. I don't mind exaggeration or skewing, but this stuff looks plain inhuman, like mutant clones of the characters. It seems that these comic book artists learned anatomy from other comic books (paying particular attention to Rob Liefeld's work), while avoiding life drawing, figure studies, or even looking at real people.
This project would be better off if they just colorized the animated sketches for SF Alpha.
Post by: ptoing on June 19, 2007, 04:10:26 pm
Post by: Helm on June 19, 2007, 04:25:26 pm
The SFIII graphics are nothing to write home about in any case, so why use them as bases? ugh.
Post by: shaheen on June 19, 2007, 04:58:19 pm
I think what annoys me the most are the obvious and, frankly, mindlessl screw ups, and not so much the weird muscle stylization. This Akuma sprite, for example:
Akuma (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/5615/5348266858faa295f1cohd6.jpg)
The mouth is completely unreadable in that one. At first, I thought that they had just forgotten to add the mouth/teeth showing, but it ends up his lips are making a "O" form. The shading on the mouth just above the chin is really off and adds sharp line creating depth (which ends up looking like a lip) to a place where there shouldn't be, confusing the viewer.
On this one, I can't even imagine why they screwed up the thumbs so badly:
Ken (http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/6474/52240693378f4d17560owr5.jpg)
I'm also confused as to why they're using so few colors for shading. It almost makes sense if you think that they're limiting themselves in order to use the old code, but then that point is made moot when you consider (among a few other things) that they'll be creating a bunch of new colors through auto AA. I'm also not a fan of the extremely angular lines that they're using. Bleh, overall.
Being a hardcore fan, I'll still probably buy this, but that's only if I end up having one of the systems that'll have it for download.
Post by: .TakaM on June 19, 2007, 04:59:23 pm
Yeah, very bad. Why the hell is Ryu leaning forward almost to the point of falling down in that nearest neighbour resize anyway?mm, I think that one was grabbed out of a photo, where it wasn't exactly square on
The SFIII graphics are nothing to write home about in any case, so why use them as bases? ugh.
Post by: Helm on June 19, 2007, 05:12:16 pm
And it seems like they're colorpicking colors off of the sprites? Genius.
Post by: ptoing on June 19, 2007, 05:15:33 pm
Ken is a mutant with extra thumbjoints \o/
Post by: jmgandalf on June 19, 2007, 07:23:20 pm
I would prefered they rendered HD images from the SF movie instead :P
Post by: Feron on June 19, 2007, 09:13:49 pm
i think Guile is the worst. They have just done a shit job. I am no anatomy expert - but im pretty sure theres some muscles there that don't exist. Also in one of the frames his shirt is basically wrapping around his ribs into his body. This whole project is just a joke.
Post by: Helm on June 20, 2007, 04:37:39 am
Post by: .TakaM on June 20, 2007, 05:05:58 am
sprite mixing, pillow shading, shoddy animation, bizarre anatomy...
well, atleast it won't technically have selout :D?
Post by: Ryumaru on June 20, 2007, 05:37:20 am
Post by: Schu on June 20, 2007, 06:01:46 am
I'd rather just play that gorgeous Dreamcast one...
Post by: Conzeit on June 20, 2007, 06:49:03 am
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/522406933_78f4d17560_o.jpg first one he posted was actually quite decent (pillowshading is still there, and it probably has a bazillion too many muscles but feh).
Imagine working at a comic company and suddenly be appointed to work on images with pre-done poses lighting and palletes, you just gotta feel a little disapoointed....I mean look at the distance between this and the Guile sprite, these people must be feeling like crap to do something like that :p. I think it might come out alright as a whole, but I cant understand why they'd chose to tie the artists to such a defunct shading style.
Post by: huZba on June 20, 2007, 09:05:08 am
Post by: LoTekK on June 20, 2007, 01:37:23 pm
It seems that these comic book artists learned anatomy from other comic books (paying particular attention to Rob Liefeld's work), while avoiding life drawing, figure studies, or even looking at real people.Ha, Liefeld's name was the first thing to pop into my head when I saw those frames. This is looking pretty godawful. I don't care what they say, but Akuma definitely looks like he's missing his mouth (it took very close scrutiny to even begin to see the suggestion of an "O" mouth). They need to learn some anatomy. Really. Ouch.
Post by: Skull on June 20, 2007, 02:04:18 pm
Looking at my own hand.. I'd say that Ken fella has one long, and somewhat bendy thumb. :o
Post by: Helm on June 20, 2007, 02:21:13 pm
Post by: ptoing on June 20, 2007, 04:14:08 pm
Post by: Helm on June 20, 2007, 06:57:19 pm
Post by: Feron on June 20, 2007, 07:01:29 pm
Street fighter (1 2 and 3) was never really anything to write home about, in my book, but this is just funny :lol:
Post by: Lee N on June 22, 2007, 09:56:26 pm
Pretty poop keyframes + revamped gfx not made by animators but comic artists (wtf!) = i expect the worst.
That's when stuff like this happens:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1170/591167992_0d5a4deefb_o.gif)
expect lots of CCP animation, it seems.. >:(
http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/06/22/poor_chun_li
Post by: ptoing on June 22, 2007, 10:39:13 pm
Post by: Zach on June 23, 2007, 01:02:30 am
this is nasty
I thought the universe was done with flash...
Post by: shaheen on June 23, 2007, 03:13:08 am
Post by: .TakaM on June 23, 2007, 05:04:36 am
Post by: shaheen on June 23, 2007, 05:30:27 am
If you mean the first, there's been at least one game that came out recently that I can name and that's Odin Sphere. A pretty nice looking game that, unfortunately, suffers from looking a bit too much like a Flash animation at a lot of points.
As far as the latter, I can think of two off the top of my head. There was The King of Fighters '94 Re-Bout which was basically a high resolution remake, but all they really did was trace over old, upscaled sprites to maybe a little larger than the Guilty Gear series' sprites with some new 3D backgrounds. The end result was mediocre as was to be expected from that one. There's currently also that remake of Ruff 'n' Tumble that seems to be using the same basic method that the artists for 94 Re-Bout used.
Post by: Faceless on June 23, 2007, 05:43:28 am
It's a game being released on Live Arcade, so you shouldn't be expecting a masterpiece.
Post by: big brother on June 25, 2007, 03:13:50 pm
Post by: Feron on June 25, 2007, 10:53:22 pm
Post by: Turbo on June 26, 2007, 05:04:32 am
On these I like the colors, the depth and the detail, and how they kept it close to the original.
That chun li animation sure sucks though :)
Post by: Akira on June 26, 2007, 05:12:50 am
I'm thinking the inbetweeners will reduce that to a minimum.There are no inbetweeners, They are using the original frames.
And it is our duty as an art forum to point out flaws so that we may better ourselves as artists :P.
Post by: Faceless on June 26, 2007, 05:11:11 pm
Post by: Feron on June 26, 2007, 05:24:16 pm
I think the real question is; "Is that semen on Chun-Li's face, chest and in her hair?"
I hear Dhalsim is quite the player ;)
Post by: ndchristie on June 26, 2007, 09:38:34 pm
I think the real question is; "Is that semen on Chun-Li's face, chest and in her hair?"
...more like hotspots. can't say i'm a fan of stupid jokes....
...but i'm less a fan of stupid games. not even following up on this i don't think, unless someone tells me it's awesome.
Post by: Faceless on June 26, 2007, 10:56:28 pm
Post by: dragonrc on June 26, 2007, 11:07:49 pm
Post by: Sherman Gill on June 27, 2007, 05:28:58 am
I believe it's mud.
Post by: Conzeit on June 27, 2007, 06:48:28 am
Post by: Lee N on June 30, 2007, 09:11:32 pm
(http://i11.tinypic.com/6biy4gh.gif)
Read more here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6888190&postcount=412
Post by: shaheen on June 30, 2007, 10:29:24 pm
The hair is exactly the same, and there's only some minor differences between the parts of the head that are the same.
Post by: .TakaM on June 30, 2007, 10:39:11 pm
though I kinda feel sorry for these guys, despite their shoddy and despicable efforts, they are showing a lot of their work and information to fans online, which I'd love to see more people doing
Post by: LoTekK on July 01, 2007, 03:05:25 pm
Post by: Helm on July 01, 2007, 03:10:48 pm
Post by: Lee N on July 01, 2007, 04:02:30 pm
Who in their right mind would accuse them for tracing, when their job is to trace old art? Of course the concept material is fair game under these circumstances!I would, when the outcome is shitty. If an artist doesn't trust his own skills enough and instead end up tracing someone elses lines that doesn't even fit - why should we trust that artist? It's not strange that the akuma mouth look weird when someone just traced a head from another image and just tried to redraw some of it.
Using the original sprite to get the overall pose down is fair game, but from there they should redraw the entire thing to make it work, tracing odd bits and pieces from different source simplys doesn't work.. and we all know it. Also, why not let Edayan do the art if Udon just end up tracing her stuff anyway?
Like someone at neogaf said:
Quote from: Fight for Freeform
I don't want to get into this debate...but my POV is that if you're doing an HD remake, adhere to the same sprites used in the original. To take different parts of art (even if it's official art) to stitch up a Frankenstein is a half assed way of doing HD sprites.
New pic of Ryu!
(http://i11.tinypic.com/4rb3rs4.gif)
Don't worry guys, it's all officially sanctioned SF art, so it's all good. :)
Post by: Helm on July 01, 2007, 04:50:32 pm
Post by: Alevice on July 01, 2007, 08:54:49 pm
Quote from: Fight for Freeform
New pic of Ryu!
I lol'd.
The only thing I appreciate, is that they have made all this public, despite the high risk on the reputation they have taken. I wish you could say the same of many other companies. And they seem to acknowledge the cirtism they have received and "will try" to work on that.
Post by: Helm on July 01, 2007, 10:12:59 pm
I was working on this then I grew bored because I'm not on salary to do it. Proof of concept though.
Post by: AdamAtomic on July 01, 2007, 10:20:36 pm
Post by: Helm on July 01, 2007, 10:26:03 pm
Post by: Ryumaru on July 02, 2007, 01:40:32 am
Post by: .TakaM on July 02, 2007, 02:28:08 am
I'd just be a bit worried how those little streaks of detail would look in the animations
Post by: Ryumaru on July 02, 2007, 02:48:49 am
(imo)
Post by: Froli on July 02, 2007, 03:18:02 am
Post by: big brother on July 02, 2007, 04:27:23 pm
(http://project450.com/sketch/skbk-06272007.jpg)
Fewer extraneous details and much more solid construction than Udon's. I don't think he spent more than an hour on this.
Post by: bengo on July 02, 2007, 04:45:11 pm
One of my buddies made a version of Ken (done in Flash, so infinitely scalable).Wait, why didn't they use flash? That makes so much more sense.
(http://project450.com/sketch/skbk-06272007.jpg)
Fewer extraneous details and much more solid construction than Udon's. I don't think he spent more than an hour on this.
Post by: AdamAtomic on July 02, 2007, 07:05:57 pm
.
.
Click to see a comparison sheet... (http://www.adamatomic.com/sprites/zangief_large.gif)
UPDATE: Final linework is done:
(http://www.adamatomic.com/sprites/zangief_lines.gif)
I'm probably not gonna color him. Cuz this was f*cking boring to make!!
Post by: Ryumaru on July 02, 2007, 10:16:33 pm
Post by: Jad on July 07, 2007, 12:05:24 pm
anatomy and shading are still weird on that one, but using flash makes WAAAY more sense than just painting these guys, mad props to your friend! Here is my WIP take on Zangief:
.
.
Click to see a comparison sheet... (http://adam.lastchancemedia.com/sprites/zangief_large.gif)
UPDATE: Final linework is done:
(http://adam.lastchancemedia.com/sprites/zangief_lines.gif)
I'm probably not gonna color him. Cuz this was f*cking boring to make!!
Big fucking eyes are creeping me out D:
Post by: ndchristie on July 08, 2007, 08:31:35 pm
the tracing bit confuses me, since that is the point of this remaster, and the entire thing is done by capcom, so they probably will cite the source material (or snub the old employees, but why bother? it's the same company)
I guess some people don't get sarcasm.lol...what's the difference between bad sarcasm and a stupid joke, besides terminology?
Post by: Helm on July 09, 2007, 12:36:43 am
I won't animate it of course, I didn't even finish it.
Post by: AdamAtomic on July 09, 2007, 05:06:09 am
Post by: Jad on July 11, 2007, 11:53:58 pm
Well i think that's part of the debate or whatever, is its not being done by capcom. Capcom outsourced it to Udon, and Udon in turn outsourced a bunch of it to some other comic book studio. So yeah i mean legally its all under the capcom umbrella, but to me it feels were that these comic book guys are tracing capcom internal art? i dunno, just seems odd.
It just shows lack of own artistic skill, I believe. It's so ugly using another head for t.hawk when he could've redone the original head smaller.
Only he couldn't, obviously, because he wasn't good enough.
But that'd be okay anyway, I guess? I'm not buying the end product in any case :)
Post by: Froli on July 21, 2007, 04:40:17 am
Interview with udon
http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/07/19/ps3-fanboy-interview-udon-comics-and-street-fighter/
It's important to look at all the different artwork of each character created by Capcom and understand what makes those characters so iconic. Fine details may change, but the main structure and forms that make each
Street Fighter character so recognizable stay the same. By using Edayan's powerful designs as a jumping off point and going from there, we're able to create a new and consistent look for the enhanced sprites.
:lol:
Post by: Scuba Steve on August 27, 2007, 11:14:05 pm
Post by: shaheen on August 28, 2007, 12:24:38 am
The art isn't even up to the standards of the SF comics I've seen Udon come out with.
Post by: .TakaM on August 28, 2007, 12:27:24 am
Post by: Helm on August 28, 2007, 12:22:08 pm
Oh ffs, it looks fine. They were asked to shoehorn new sprites into the PRECISE size and area of the old sprites... no room for anatomical corrections since the bounding boxes had to be identical for hit detection.
I respectfully disagree. The original sprites weren't anatomical wonders, but the new ones are adding even more. If you don't see it, you probably need to sharpen your eye by doing more anatomy work, it will benefit your own art too.
Quote
It's one thing to critique... but I sense far more baseless nitpicking and contempt towards the art for SFIIHD.
I'd agree... if it were baseless.
Post by: ptoing on August 28, 2007, 12:23:56 pm
Post by: Froli on August 28, 2007, 01:38:41 pm
Post by: Scuba Steve on August 28, 2007, 02:29:50 pm
From the start of this thread it was "This sucks!"... when I must disagree. Amazing? Not in my opinion... but it's certainly decent and it should look nice on an HDTV running LIVE on the 360.
Post by: huZba on August 28, 2007, 03:23:29 pm
THAT is one HUGE car. DAMN!Ever been around an escalade?
I'm not thrilled about SF2:HD, but at least they're doing it by hand instead of grinding the graphics through some photoshop filters and call it HD like a lot of XLA games.
@Froli. I posted that 3rd party earlier in the thread. They're some small fry and if you look at their earlier comics, they have pretty much the same flaws present.
Seems like a lot of people are excited about it, and a lot of them don't really care about the anatomy or whatever, so let them enjoy it when it comes out.
It'd be silly to try and preach people about the flaws and try and make them hate it. Most people don't take games seriously, most people aren't artists being badly affected by the art.
Hehe, also to note, Helm's Sagat was the subject of public ridicule along with some other udon sprites at 4chan. He was dubbed as Granpa-Sagat. Of course we can't give credit to udon making appealing faces for them, since quite a few are traced from older Capcom character art, which was discussed earlier as well. I agree with Scuba that it's useless nitpicking.. kinda, though i agree with Helm as well, as it is not baseless at all. No one should try and learn from these sprites, since they serve as a very bad example and i think this is why some people here feel so strongly about nailing and crucifying them for their errors.
As for my personal view, i'm definatelly not going to buy the game, since i've played the original enough and i don't fancy the new art.
Post by: big brother on August 28, 2007, 05:06:34 pm
Post by: Helm on August 28, 2007, 05:46:43 pm
Quote
I would hardly consider myself an expert on anatomy... but I know my way around it.
Judging from your recent comic posted in the OTcreativity thread I'd have to say your anatomical skills are very lacking for someone who has been drawing for as long as you have. I am not surprised if you can't spot much of the issues with these sprites, and it is a valid thing to say 'well if I can't spot them, johnny gamer can't spot them either' to which I reply, when (a pro gaming company) makes bad art, safe in the knowledge that the common denominator of their target audience can't tell that it's sucky, then a soddy job is being done.
Quote
Sometimes you sound like a one trick pony, Helm, Anatomy.
I wasn't aware that I'm here to provide a variety of entertainment for you. But I've got no problem with being dubbed an 'one-trick pony' if my one 'trick' is advocating proper artistic practises. Stop learning anatomy from anime, stop learning color theory from anime, stop copying anime styles and learn the fundamentals. Think when you draw, observe life when you draw. these are valid critiques for these udon people and the subcontracted group both. I'm not saying go super-realistic with this project, but at least have the skills to pull off aesthetic consistency without everything looking awkward. You don't see me complaining that the Guilty Gear sprites have long-ass legs or anything. They are consistent, it's not a look I enjoy but I'm not whining about it. This stuff is amateurish.
Quote
Hehe, also to note, Helm's Sagat was the subject of public ridicule along with some other udon sprites at 4chan.
y...you don't mean to say... I was made fun of on the internet?!?!
Post by: huZba on August 28, 2007, 06:06:54 pm
Post by: Helm on August 28, 2007, 06:24:32 pm
Post by: shaheen on August 28, 2007, 06:36:45 pm
Post by: Scuba Steve on August 28, 2007, 06:45:49 pm
Judging from your recent comic posted in the OTcreativity thread I'd have to say your anatomical skills are very lacking for someone who has been drawing for as long as you have.
Fuck you. You know nothing about my past or history as an artist. I have very little formal training and have been forced to teach myself what I know during my very sparse free time. I told you, in that post, to critique my work... since I am always open to criticism. I have every desire to improve my work and stretch myself to be a better artist... but it is constrained by work and other activities. If you're just going to belittle my art in another thread, go for it... but don't expect me to respect you... I'd have a much higher regard for you if it was genuine critique where it was requested. Believe it or not, I respect you as an artist, Helm. Your work is fascinating and self exploratory at the same time. You have the strongest dedication to this site of anyone who has ever come here... continuous and consistent posting and critiquing for... 5 years? I value your critiques and comments, but if the best you have for me is that I'm an embarrassment as an artist because I've spent years and have no talent, then respectfully, fuck you.
I may come off vitriolic, but that's just my nature. Being told I'm not any good without any genuine criticism irks me to no end.
Post by: Rox on August 28, 2007, 09:24:24 pm
I'm with you, Scubes, but I don't think Helm intended to insult you on a personal level. He has a point. And starting a post with "fuck you" is... definitely more insulting than what he said. It's kinda true that your anatomical workings could be more accurate. Personally, I don't think it matters. But to some, things aren't worth doing if you don't do them RIGHT. Helm does that. I like it. Keeps you on your toes. Even though apparently using Paint isn't right.
Suddenly, I forget what I was trying to say. Ohyeah, I think it was that you don't have to throw a "fuck you" at Helm for saying something that seems to be true. Even if he's good at being painfully blunt.
Me, I don't really know what the fuss is about regarding this Street Fighter deal. I mean, yeah, some of the pics have positively horrid anatomy. Thing is, people don't notice. Even if they do notice, they don't care. People don't play Street Fighter because it's anatomically correct. Yeah, it'd be really nice if someone who could actually.. draw a correct hand were to work on a fighting game, but whatever. I have no clue how this argument could spawn from such a discussion in the first place. Yes, the anatomy is bad. No, it doesn't matter.
Post by: Helm on August 28, 2007, 09:28:15 pm
If you're going to be so high strung and attack people when you don't like what they tell you, you won't last long here as an active member. I'm letting it slide because I wasn't insulted by your outburst, but I'll have to protect the userbase if you explode on someone else next time. If you are going to be cool with other people and are just picking a fight with me specifically, I'm not going to indulge you.
Post by: big brother on August 28, 2007, 09:42:20 pm
Quote
People don't play Street Fighter because it's anatomically correct. Yeah, it'd be really nice if someone who could actually.. draw a correct hand were to work on a fighting game, but whatever. I have no clue how this argument could spawn from such a discussion in the first place. Yes, the anatomy is bad. No, it doesn't matter.
It's less about being "correct", and more about an artist constructing a believably consistent interpretation. Distort and exaggerate reality, every artist does that unconsciously anyways (by virtue of individual perception). But do NOT abandon basic artistic principles. Use contrasting shapes and textures, draw in the third dimension, balance detail with empty space, use neutral colors as buffers, etc. Try to be inventive rather than derivative. I know the project is a "remix", but that's no excuse to gag creativity and handcuff it to a water pipe in the basement. Some of the world's greatest art was born out of limitations (are publishers that different from Renaissance era patrons?). I'm not saying Udon MUST create a masterpiece, but they can't expect anything other than shit without artistic principles.
Even if players don't care, it matters. Maybe anatomy isn't the primary draw, but everything contributes to the end gaming experience. You get more of what you subsidize and I'm not willing to support a sinking standard for artists in any industry.
Post by: Rox on August 28, 2007, 10:45:19 pm
Post by: am_pm on August 28, 2007, 11:26:15 pm
Post by: Froli on August 29, 2007, 01:29:40 am
I believe majority of us can detect the flaws of their artwork..Maybe we sound like an ass but perhaps deep inside if we are in their situation, and I was asked to make those sprites, I would turn it down completely because I know my limits. It's Streetfighter man! not some indie/project work and the bar was already set quite high. If you can't make it at least decent, It's gonna backlash at you in the end and make your reputation a joke.
To sum it up, I feel they have this attitude "we don't CARE what you think, we just want to profit". Thats why this was brought up and that's why we probably have this thread. It's give us more a good look on how things work in the business with a big name on the line. Right now, I'm just waiting how this game to come out and be reviewed.
And about helms Sagat, He didn't finish it and he has the ability to make it like dc/marvel comic sagat or something visually appealing ..Takes a lot of guts knowing some people in the internets would joke about it, and he still didn't do it. I wish he did, I was tempted to pm him about it, but from seeing his attitude in this boards, he probably shrug it off.
Anyway, I kinda analyzed why the character looks older is because
1. Facial grin
2. some dark lines by using comic style look
I hope you don't mind helm, I know I can't do justice.. but I did a small change on his mouth area for a serious look to make him a bit younger.
(http://xs118.xs.to/xs118/07353/helmsagat.PNG)
Huzba,
Ugh sorry, I didn't know you mentioned it already.
Post by: Helm on August 29, 2007, 01:50:10 am
I like my grin, personally. Your version he just looks uneasy or undecided. There's malevolence in the grin in the original and I tried to retain that. And I think the age and likeness was alright if you look at the source image. A lot of people might have this
(http://www.geocities.com/alpha96_ex/imagesDeux/deuxSagatCover.jpg)
in mind when they think Sagat but I certainly don't. Can't please them all, at least I made an aesthetic call of some sort.
Post by: Scuba Steve on August 29, 2007, 04:30:57 am
If you're going to be so high strung and attack people when you don't like what they tell you, you won't last long here as an active member.
I've been around for over 5 years :P And whether you intended it or not... I was pretty insulted by your comment. Your reply is comforting that you didn't mean it... but I think you can see why I would be upset. I don't even know why I posted here... I don't even like fighting games :P
Post by: huZba on August 29, 2007, 05:44:58 am
You know this without a doubt, but when making a character such as this, it would be far better to make what most people have in mind rather than what's your personal preference.
Still i think everyone agrees there would be a great benefit from proper anatomy, stylized or not.
Post by: Helm on August 29, 2007, 12:59:58 pm
Quote
I've been around for over 5 years
You've been registered on the forums for 5 years sure. You've not been a very regular poster, and with a bit of a strange relationship to the forum, what with the 'I am posting drunk, lol' period at one point and such. If you want to last around here as an active user, don't tell people to fuck off when you feel insulted. Am I clear enough?
Quote
And whether you intended it or not... I was pretty insulted by your comment.
Ask for clarifications, prefferably in private, before you reach for the internet drama button.
Quote
Your reply is comforting that you didn't mean it... but I think you can see why I would be upset. I don't even know why I posted here... I don't even like fighting games
You posted here because you wanted to push my buttons, obviously.
Post by: ndchristie on September 02, 2007, 10:54:30 pm
Most of us have known the name scuba steve for a long time now so, even without background knowledge, it's reasonable to assume that you have been drawing for some time.
The fact of the matter is that this is a critique board and everyone comes here with that in mind; the vaguest pretense of a segue can lead into an evaluative process. You actually do have a lot of trouble with anatomy for a person who has been drawing for any length of time, and it cannot be reiterated enough times that this is a thing for you to study long and hard.
As far as helm is concerned, I hardly speak for him, but it is his job as a moderator to attempt to address every concern (be they artistic concerns or administrative ones) while at the same time keeping the piece, and that is damnably difficult! He and I have had our arguments (knock on wood), and I can attest to the fact that it can be very easy to mistake concern for insults, opinions for edicts, and the like.
As far as the artwork is concerned, this guy really is all over the place. What's a shame is the idea that anyone who so much as passes a high-quality illustration program can do better in terms of style, consistency, and general quality, probably faster too.
It's not just capcom too, everyone is hiring shitty artists in a world full of talented gems and the rationale is mind-boggling at it's best. I'm sure most of you have seen what Marvel thinks is good these days:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/NWXM0043_cov.jpg
Post by: Jigsaw on October 01, 2007, 11:56:13 am
The official blog has been updated with two new sprites, of Cammy and Vega (Bison) (http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/09/26/flying_dictators_new_art).
I think Cammy looks very decent compared to some of the earlier sprites shown, but the sprite is certainly not without its faults. Her face kind of bugs me, her knees look like kneepits, and the whole hips/abs area is a complete mess. Her arms look kind of correct though, so I guess that's a start! I think Dictator looks good too. The lighting is perhaps a little dubious but given the nature of the sprite I have really no problems forgiving it. It is interesting to note that he seems to look alot stockier than he did in SF2 though - a change I don't particularly agree with, but I guess you can't really tell how drastic a change it will be until we've seen more sprites.
Generally I am very torn about this project. Super Street Fighter II Turbo is probably my favourite game of all time, for many reasons. So while I am very happy that I will get a version to download for my PS3 and/or 360, it does pain me terribly that it - so far - looks so bad. It's just plain depressing to see this "professional" art for a 2007 (2008?) game look so much worse than sprites that were created in 1991, even if you completely disregard the difference in resolution (though of course that does make it all the more embarrassing). In my eyes, the art fails on many levels; yes the anatomy is terrible, the tracing is done poorly, they are adding faults that weren't there originally - but on top of all that I'm quite unhappy with most sprites stylistically. I do enjoy UDON's comic and their art, but basing a game on it feels kind of like shoehorning fanart into a game in place of actual official art. The situation is certainly not improved by the fact that we essentially have second-rate artists poorly emulating UDON's style (except for when they haphazardly insert parts traced from Cacpom art) instead of actual UDON art. For what it's worth I think the portraits, ending pictures and the like that have been showed all look vastly superior to the ingame graphics.
I'm not saying the characters need to look exactly like they did in SF2, or SF3, Alpha or any other game for that matter. I just feel that these sprites are sorely lacking a distinct Capcom sensibility, and because of that the visuals of the game suffer greatly. I can't help but feel that if Akiman, Bengus, Edayan or Nishimura Kinu was in charge of the design, this game would be my dream come true. But as it stands it's a game I'm looking forward to play although I'm almost afraid to look at it.
Helm: That Sagat looks beautiful! :y::) Needless to say that doesn't necessarily scream Capcom either, but that doesn't change the fact that it is by far the best "HD SF2" sprite I've seen. The amount of detail puts the official sprites to shame (though to be fair I guess it makes sense to keep detail down for animating's sake), and I'm impressed that you managed to stick so close to SF2 proportions and anatomy yet make it look so good! One thing I feel compelled to mention though - you seem to have missed the fact that CPS games are drawn in a non-4:3 resolution (384x224 to be exact) and thus should not be scaled proportionally when drawn for a 4:3 display. Scale the width to 78% and it's closer to what it would actually look like in the game.
Post by: Helm on October 01, 2007, 12:26:27 pm
About detail and animation, no matter how much detail is or is not there, in such huge sprites with so few in-betweens, it'll look choppy as hell anyway. Like a monty python animation, as I've said before. So why not go ahead and make the stationary sprites detailed and interesting to look at?
Post by: Jigsaw on October 01, 2007, 12:42:54 pm
Regarding the detail, I am definitely with you. What I meant is that in the interest in preserving their own sanity (as opposed to creating the best possible visuals) I can understand why the artist might choose to keep some of the detail low.
Post by: Helm on October 01, 2007, 12:51:50 pm
Post by: Jigsaw on October 01, 2007, 01:59:27 pm
Post by: Scuba Steve on October 02, 2007, 10:50:27 pm
Post by: Lee N on November 04, 2007, 06:43:38 am
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x155/infotechman/Dhalsim_B_71_00_v01copy.jpg) (http://static.pici.se/pictures/supQhxeSu.jpg)
"I'll just paste the heads here and start from there.."
Boo.
Post by: AdamTierney on November 04, 2007, 10:24:37 am
Post by: .TakaM on November 04, 2007, 11:18:57 am
edit-
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1286/leftxk2.png)
ok, I'm a complete noob at anatomy... but at least I don't make the mistake of two left feet
Post by: Helm on November 04, 2007, 02:42:20 pm
Post by: Feron on November 04, 2007, 05:17:24 pm
*sigh*
i completely concur.
just look at blanka's right forearm... wtf
Post by: Jad on November 04, 2007, 08:23:45 pm
HOW DO I ANIMAETED!
Post by: bengo on November 04, 2007, 08:33:49 pm
Post by: Scuba Steve on November 05, 2007, 01:11:04 am
Post by: ptoing on November 05, 2007, 01:26:45 am
Several bits, esp his right arm and the neck are all over the place, with changing anatomy and shading. This, as far as I am concerned can be called halfassed at best and is a poor testament to Capcom.
Post by: Noveroth on November 05, 2007, 04:54:33 am
Post by: sharprm on November 05, 2007, 05:08:41 am
I don't know enough about anatomy but i think the head for red bandana guy is too small. Maybe when u playing the game u wont care so much about how it looks.
Post by: Scuba Steve on November 05, 2007, 05:56:47 am
Post by: Jad on November 05, 2007, 04:47:40 pm
I agree about sloppy elements of the animation, ptoing... I see a lot of copy and paste, the shading is all over the place in the arm... I was just reminding people, who may not be familiar, what the constraints were. I think that adds a layer of constraint that must be considered. There is some video footage of the game floating around the net... It's really fuzzy and grainy... but the animation looks decent sped up and quick. Again, I'm not defending Capcom here, but there's more to this than just a crappy animation.
Actually, you could work under the same restrictions and come up with way better methods than this. Like for example work with shading in a larger scale, making sure that even the most basic shading works in all frames of an animations.
I mean, what does it matter that still frames look good when EVERYTHING IN THE GAME WILL MOVE AT ALL TIMES except for when it's paused? It's just stupid.
No hating, though. I have no idea of how the artists were briefed before taking this assignment, but, well, the results could've been better. Seriously. Maybe they should've hired people with experience in ANIMATION? Gah. D:>
Post by: big brother on November 05, 2007, 05:49:33 pm
The coloring is awful -- flattens the entire sprite and turns the foreshortening into a joke.
The butt crack that appears and disappears on his neck/trap/completely invented muscle made me laugh.
Post by: baccaman21 on November 05, 2007, 05:58:00 pm
this whole thing smells of outsourcing the artwork to indian gfx outsources...
the lack of consistency, the misinterpretation not to mention the complete lack of understanding of the characters...
it begs belief...
makes me sad... very sad. :'(
Post by: Lee N on November 05, 2007, 08:38:09 pm
this whole thing smells of outsourcing the artwork to indian gfx outsources...It's outsourced all right, outsourced to UDON - an american comic book stuido. I think it would've been for the better if they found some animators in india to outsource it to. Right now it's like a bad joke.
Post by: Blick on November 08, 2007, 07:49:36 am
Post by: .TakaM on November 08, 2007, 08:16:54 am
Post by: Helm on November 08, 2007, 06:20:53 pm
(http://www.locustleaves.com/what.gif)
Post by: Scuba Steve on November 08, 2007, 08:32:20 pm
Post by: Helm on November 08, 2007, 08:37:06 pm
Post by: Cammy on November 09, 2007, 12:04:11 am
this whole thing smells of outsourcing the artwork to indian gfx outsources...It's outsourced all right, outsourced to UDON - an american comic book stuido. I think it would've been for the better if they found some animators in india to outsource it to. Right now it's like a bad joke.
Long Vo from Udon is the artist working on the sprite charts that are sent to a studio in Hong Kong who are working on the colouring and everything else. Since the hard-core Street Fighter fans want the game to play exactly like the original (they don't even want remixed music or newly recorded speech samples) the positions of all the limbs on the characters has to stay exactly as it was in the original and no animation frames can be added. It was Capcom's decision to keep it this way and have the whole project confined to a low budget because they needed a next-gen Street Fighter game that could be developed in a short time period to get out there to fill the void between now and when Street Fighter 4 comes out.
Oh, and I thought I'd point out that Udon is a Canadian comic company, not American, not that it's very relevant but some people might take it as an insult.
Post by: ptoing on November 09, 2007, 12:54:34 am
Since the hard-core Street Fighter fans want the game to play exactly like the original (they don't even want remixed music or newly recorded speech samples)
Then they should just play the original.
Post by: .TakaM on November 09, 2007, 01:40:59 am
I don't know. Show me the bounding boxes for that frame and I'll show you a way to make them work without awful anatomy.There was no bounding box in the psd, but it did have the original sprite frame:
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2006/shitvb8.png)
just as bad really.. Still, I'd like to see your version helm :)
Post by: Scuba Steve on November 09, 2007, 02:30:43 am
(http://www.doomworld.com/gbd2/misc/blanka.jpg)
Also, it seems as though the people in charge are also aware of many of the concerns that have been raised. Their Blog (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/544) talks about inconsistent shading and the problems with Blanka.
Post by: Helm on November 09, 2007, 02:43:11 am
Post by: shaheen on November 09, 2007, 02:44:20 am
Quote from: Capcom Blog
[The CPS2] made advancements in arcade technology and essentially, was capable of handling better, more detailed graphics. So any character or move that was new to the game between SFII and SSFII was developed on the CPSII board. So Cammy, Fei, Long, and T Hawk were able to have some cool effects added to them, like the blurring, which was not possible for the other characters developed on the CPS1.
This quote is talking about this frame here: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/1879371617_7619ff6eeb_o.jpg
Uh, what? Are they actually saying that clearly manual motion blur common in animation for decades was due to an enhancement in arcade hardware?
Also: the Blanka sprite is part of a sequence in which he rests his weight on that elongated arm. Even if you were to make the HD version look nice anatomically, it'd be difficult to try and fix the entire animation, I think. The original Blanka sprites were very wonky to begin with.
EDIT: Here's the sequence I was talking about: http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4410/blankaza0.gif
Post by: Cammy on November 09, 2007, 04:53:08 am
Since the hard-core Street Fighter fans want the game to play exactly like the original (they don't even want remixed music or newly recorded speech samples)
Then they should just play the original.
I don't understand why people would complain about remixed music and new sound effects if the whole look of the game has been changed, but the really hard-core SF guys love to bitch about everything. I loved SSFII/ST, but since this is a new revision, I have no problem with it playing differently or sounding better if the game is more fun to play. I just can't wait to see Cammy in action.
Post by: Conzeit on November 09, 2007, 05:42:52 am
I love JohnK's blog...this all makes so much sense now that I've seen him complain about Korean inbetweening studios :p. the whole system is made to replicate bland and boring.
the people up above think more shades and more rez =more quality, but no one in the project has any clue of animation "cause it's already animated anyways" so we're seeing subpar illustrators making millions of illustrations one after another without any relation within themselves...and then they're stickin it into a game....eek
Yet another post about everything you already knew with some added nonesense.
courtesy of ~Conceit~
Post by: Ben2theEdge on November 09, 2007, 02:32:45 pm
Having said that, I also think it's totally unfair to be ripping apart leaked WIP art that the artists obviously aren't ready to show anyone, without them even present. The quality of the art is beside the point, it's an honor thing.
Post by: big brother on November 09, 2007, 06:13:41 pm
One of the major problems I'm seeing is the difference in design philosophy between low and high resolution work. I can forgive many of the quirks in the original sprites. The priority was making the sprites read, giving them bigger heads and hands to accommodate the detail that conveys the personality of the characters. In high-res, these sacrifices don't need to be made, which is why the Udon sprites look like grotesque mutants. No offense, Blanka.
Post by: Froli on November 11, 2007, 06:56:19 am
I believe this is the first video released so far. Really...Using a cell phone camera vid <from what I heard> to advertise their HD game and make it blurry. I feel there some shady reason behind it, like.. hide the details? :huh:
Post by: .TakaM on November 11, 2007, 07:59:59 am
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/121409.html
grabbed from an HD interview, so don't worry about it jumping :P
Post by: eck on November 11, 2007, 02:05:21 pm
Post by: Lee N on November 13, 2007, 04:29:20 am
So, tell me. If you're not going to stick to the old gameplay with the new graphics.. why the eff are you trying to stick to the old restrictions? This is beyond retarded. They should just've made a completely new engine from scratch, with real artists and animators.
God this pisses me off.
Source:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8577209&postcount=1
Post by: shaheen on November 13, 2007, 04:39:22 am
Quote
Before you bitch, THE ORIGINAL GAMEPLAY WILL STILL BE INCLUDED AND UNTOUCHED, BUT WITH THE NEW GRAPHICS, it is just an option.
I heard about the changes, and they sound great. What they've changed doesn't really warrant a completely new game. The meat of the game is still based on the old code, while the only addition is in the form of a few changes in the movelists and move properties. It's another Street Fighter 2 revision.
Art still blows, but at least the game itself will continue to rock.
Post by: bengo on November 18, 2007, 06:08:17 pm
Games are getting too easy, its making gamers weak.
Post by: Helm on November 18, 2007, 11:57:57 pm
Post by: shaheen on November 18, 2007, 11:59:57 pm
Quote
Games are getting too easy, its making gamers weak.
Not really. Regardless of the fact that they're focusing on more difficult motions to pull off (like the 360 for Zangief's Spinning Pile Driver, or the Tiger Knee motion for Sagat (d,df,f,uf)) in regards to simplicity, the inability to pull off those maneuvers doesn't determine who's 'weak' in Street Fighter. They're simply leveling out the playing field for those characters who may have intimidated less reflex-enabled players. It's a great idea to appeal to the greater audience who don't choose to practice the motions constantly.
There are, however, quite a few games currently out there for those who wish play a fighting game that has a heavy emphasis on reflexes. Guilty Gear and Melty Blood are good examples of this.
Post by: Lee N on November 22, 2007, 01:42:03 am
More at LOLFIGHTERZ (http://lolfighterz.blogspot.com/)
;D
Post by: happymonster on December 06, 2007, 06:32:24 pm
(http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/stf2.jpg)
Post by: Conzeit on March 14, 2008, 08:50:51 pm
They realized the art style was too heavy a cap to have. I say that's good because the artists werent taking advantage of the extra shades anyway and now it actually looks more cohesive. I wouldnt have used a whole shade for outlines though, I'd be a little more creative and play with the balance of amount of shadows and highlilghts for each character, according to the pallete of their skin.
Post by: Helm on March 15, 2008, 09:20:18 am
The new art looks better (at least the flesh tones do, and no double-jointed thumbs, alright) but I still fail to see how this is an upgrade from pixels in terms of movement and gameplay. If anything, they should have remade the pixel art at say, double the res, and with more in-betweens. That would have been a doable project at half the time, and it would have looked proper.
Post by: happymonster on March 15, 2008, 12:53:50 pm
Post by: Helm on March 15, 2008, 02:05:52 pm
Post by: happymonster on March 16, 2008, 10:06:37 am
Post by: Conzeit on March 16, 2008, 12:53:26 pm
Now they're having to re-do the sprites with less shades because it's just turning out too much for the outsourced company to do sprites with so many shades, I bet it's because they're running out of budget, and who wants to spend on a remix of SF2, when SF4 already looks soooo much like SF2 in 3D?
Post by: BimTuckley on June 26, 2008, 10:16:49 am
The trainwreck that never ends - even the gameplay is broken.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCseWmfIjzU
And as a bonus the new character select pics.
(http://www.taxigamer.com/super_street_fighter_ii_turbo_hd_remix_017.jpg)
Cammy as well as Chun Li look like insects and every male has the same nose.
Also 4chan reacted to the beta with their own interpretation of HD streetfighter
(http://i26.tinypic.com/nlstx0.png)
(http://i31.tinypic.com/afk41c.png)
(http://i30.tinypic.com/dy838m.png)
(http://i27.tinypic.com/rk7n0y.png)
(http://i26.tinypic.com/2ztil91.jpg)
Post by: .TakaM on June 26, 2008, 11:03:42 am
Post by: Conzeit on June 27, 2008, 02:38:22 am
(http://i26.tinypic.com/nlstx0.png)
ROFLMAO! XDDDDDDD you're such a mean bastard!
I'm actually feeling really sorry for the guy at the helm of the project...I know his brother and he's a good man =/