Pixelation

Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 02:23:02 pm

Title: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 02:23:02 pm
Shooting for a realistic style, i need some help with anatomy and such.
This is the first time i try doing realistic characters instead of the regular anime types.

The game is suppose to be a Sci-Fi MMORPG.

Old :

(http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2189/withoutlightdb1.png)

Newest :

(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/2249/charactersgw7.png)

(http://godborn.com/images/mockups/tgmpnewest.png)
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: Kubol on March 20, 2007, 03:10:25 pm
Looks fine but i think legs should be a little bit longer  :y:
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: Saokymo on March 20, 2007, 04:12:32 pm
I personally like the brighter skintones more, the first set looks like they have really dry skin. What kind of help are you looking for on anatomy?
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 06:16:11 pm
Yea i used the skintones with a bit more contrast. The second ones..

Anyway a mockup :).

(http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/2189/withoutlightdb1.png)

And the in-game Mockup, since the engine has light effects.. Might look something like this..

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6638/withlightiq3.png
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: Sharm on March 20, 2007, 06:39:04 pm
I would highly suggest not using the same colors on the sprite as you do in the background.  Right now he looks like a manaquin or something that belongs in the background.
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 06:41:34 pm
I would highly suggest not using the same colors on the sprite as you do in the background.  Right now he looks like a manaquin or something that belongs in the background.

I am not. Only same colour is the colour on the shirt. And thats the one hue.. Anyway there will be different kind of equipment so.. :P.
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: setz on March 20, 2007, 07:40:28 pm
I made a very small edit, I only changed 2 things; I made the walking plane abit more obvious, and I a few of the BG colors.

(http://sj-gfx.com/pixels/zosoedit.PNG)

Things were blending in together too much in your picture, characters should be obvious, and the whole thing looked very flat; I only added one line, but it gives the player the idea that its a surface you can walk on. Theres not much of a feeling of depth; the ground looked about on the same level as the background.
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 07:50:13 pm
Yea well you will be able to move around how you want, i placed the character a bit wrong.. Anyway i like your colours.. But i will have different colours and styles for different ship levels.. You know. Anyway thanks for the edit :). I shall try not to make the character and backround blend as much..

The characters will also have shadows, so that will give it some depth to.. :).
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: Fool on March 20, 2007, 08:08:47 pm
I think their torsos a bit long for realistic look and legs short from knees down. =)
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 08:30:28 pm
Hmm yea maybe, anyway a new mockup.

Anyone got an idea how i could fix the knees and legs.. Im not sure how i should fix that :o.

(http://godborn.com/images/mockups/mnormal.png)

And how the game might look ingame = http://godborn.com/images/mockups/mlight.png
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: robalan on March 20, 2007, 08:44:19 pm
The main problem I see with this mockup is that the wall and floor are shaded exactly the same, using exactly the same colors.  This makes the wall and floor appear to be one contiguous plane, which they obviously are not.  Using different colors (or at least different sections of the same ramp) on the wall and floor or adding "junk" along the edge of the floor could help to define the perspective.  Good luck with this; it looks good so far.
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 08:52:51 pm
The main problem I see with this mockup is that the wall and floor are shaded exactly the same, using exactly the same colors.  This makes the wall and floor appear to be one contiguous plane, which they obviously are not.  Using different colors (or at least different sections of the same ramp) on the wall and floor or adding "junk" along the edge of the floor could help to define the perspective.  Good luck with this; it looks good so far.

Yea i know :). Well i tried something else instead of changing the colours.
I kinda gave it more depht by changing some shading around the walls lower edge and made the bricks kinda.. "higher".

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7335/yealv7.png)
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: Terley on March 20, 2007, 09:11:39 pm
I would of thought everythings a bit too 'head on' considering we've viewing everything from above. maybe you should try different perspective for this on a whole, theres no illustion of perspective. with the character especially, he may be giving the impression hes looking down but his body just looks flat on the screen.

(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7468/untitledan2.png) >> (http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6415/rpgcharacterad6.png)

I tried to have a go at making a higher angled character, probably doesn't help much but I personally think the perspective on this is just iffy.. and with such a tall character its gonna be hard.

hope I helped anyway
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: ZoSo on March 20, 2007, 09:16:58 pm
I would of thought everythings a bit too 'head on' considering we've viewing everything from above. maybe you should try different perspective for this on a whole, theres no illustion of perspective. with the character especially, he may be giving the impression hes looking down but his body just looks flat on the screen.

(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7468/untitledan2.png) >> (http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6415/rpgcharacterad6.png)

I tried to have a go at making a higher angled character, probably doesn't help much but I personally think the perspective on this is just iffy.. and with such a tall character its gonna be hard.

hope I helped anyway

Hmm.. I know that would work, but i cant really do that. Its going to be a MMORPG, therefore i would need more detail on the body and such, since there will be different kind of equipment and stuff. And i dont really like that prespective anyway so.. :O

But thanks for the edit, i like your colours, how you somewhat made it smoother and more realistic.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Pownatized on March 20, 2007, 10:07:34 pm
Well, your perspective right now seems to be almost horizontal to the ground, yet your ground tiles are from a top down view. That is the problem. The square tiles should be stretched out horizontally.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Gil on March 20, 2007, 11:15:24 pm
(http://art.game-designer.org/pixelart/edit/mnormal.png)

Try something like that. Your perspective is all wrong on everything...
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: setz on March 20, 2007, 11:20:33 pm
oh wow, I was under the impression this was supposed to be a 2D platformer going from the earlier shot, my mistake. Defenitely try to give more variation on floors and walls.

you also will want to code the shadows to accomodate for walls; otherwise it will look very weird.
Title: Re: Working on a game :o.
Post by: Syn on March 21, 2007, 02:49:12 am
I would of thought everythings a bit too 'head on' considering we've viewing everything from above. maybe you should try different perspective for this on a whole, theres no illustion of perspective. with the character especially, he may be giving the impression hes looking down but his body just looks flat on the screen.

(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7468/untitledan2.png) >> (http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6415/rpgcharacterad6.png)

I tried to have a go at making a higher angled character, probably doesn't help much but I personally think the perspective on this is just iffy.. and with such a tall character its gonna be hard.

hope I helped anyway

Wow, I really dig the perspective you used there Terley.  :y:
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: kakikukeko on March 21, 2007, 08:35:41 am
I think Gil is right about darkening the floor, with this perspective it's quite difficult to disinguish the wall/floor otherwise..
here is an attempt at improving the anatomy.. I think I pronouced too much the forms...and that makes him more womanish.. blah..
hope it may still be an help somehow  :crazy: 
(http://kakikukeko.free.fr/images/pallettechangeqk1%20edit.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 21, 2007, 02:18:00 pm
I think Gil is right about darkening the floor, with this perspective it's quite difficult to disinguish the wall/floor otherwise..
here is an attempt at improving the anatomy.. I think I pronouced too much the forms...and that makes him more womanish.. blah..
hope it may still be an help somehow  :crazy: 
(http://kakikukeko.free.fr/images/pallettechangeqk1%20edit.png)

Wow that helps.. Thank you, i will study what you did and try doing something alike.

Anyway Gil, all you did was make the platforms smaller.. which isn't good since its a 32x32 tilebased engine, the colour change might help. But you didn't change the perspective.. I'm still thankfull for the edit tho, i just got home.. And I'm gonna try working on the characters and tileset a bit. I really like Kakikukekos edit :D.

Yours is pretty much perfect, so may i use your lines?
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: inkspot on March 21, 2007, 07:49:03 pm
I am not a good spriteartist, so no crit for the characters today. But apart from that, i give you some advice for the background:

Your BG looks flat. Even though Gil made it better by making the floor darker and giving more perspective, it still looks odd.
Usually the reason for this lies behind the colours. Remember, colours are the key element of the atmosphere, depth and mood. And depth is connected to perspective. So, adding the right colours you also apply the illusion of more realistic perspective.
My advice from now is that make theinner cornes casting more shadows, that means that make the lower part of walls darker etc, this really creates nice effects. But don't use the same blue on shadows, pick another tone, something warmer. You should know that cold colours usually have warm shadows and vice versa. In your piece, I suggest some brown for shadows and some lighter orange with the mix of light blue for highlights. So, basically, use more depth - closed areas (eg inner corners, etc) have less light bounciong back to the viewer, they swallow.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 21, 2007, 08:51:13 pm
I am not a good spriteartist, so no crit for the characters today. But apart from that, i give you some advice for the background:

Your BG looks flat. Even though Gil made it better by making the floor darker and giving more perspective, it still looks odd.
Usually the reason for this lies behind the colours. Remember, colours are the key element of the atmosphere, depth and mood. And depth is connected to perspective. So, adding the right colours you also apply the illusion of more realistic perspective.
My advice from now is that make theinner cornes casting more shadows, that means that make the lower part of walls darker etc, this really creates nice effects. But don't use the same blue on shadows, pick another tone, something warmer. You should know that cold colours usually have warm shadows and vice versa. In your piece, I suggest some brown for shadows and some lighter orange with the mix of light blue for highlights. So, basically, use more depth - closed areas (eg inner corners, etc) have less light bounciong back to the viewer, they swallow.

Hm.. Yea, thats a good tip. Thank you. I will see what i can do.

Edit :

I kinda used Kakis lines, i fixed some hardly noticable pixels.. Anyway here they are.

(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/2249/charactersgw7.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Sharm on March 21, 2007, 10:16:46 pm
Much better!  They look more alive, and I really like the colors.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 21, 2007, 10:29:37 pm
Hehe thanks :D. And thanks to Kaki :).

Anyway here a mockup.

(http://godborn.com/images/mockups/2mnormal.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Gil on March 21, 2007, 11:41:04 pm
The little mosaic stones are still square, they should be half as high.

I suggest you read some isometric tutorials, since you're trying to use that perspective...
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: InvaderLupus on March 22, 2007, 01:14:20 am
The background looks too flat. It's really difficult to tell what's part of the wall and what's part of the floor. You need to add some sort of perspective to it.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Ryumaru on March 22, 2007, 01:16:50 am
the shadows under the knees are so big that it looks like there partially squatting
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Grindie on March 22, 2007, 04:10:16 am
It all looks pretty cool, but the sprites don't stand out enough against the background. Maybe give them darker outlines or something?
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: kakikukeko on March 22, 2007, 07:08:41 am
hey glad the edit was useful  ;)

Overall it starts to look like something!
I really like the textures on the wall.

Personally I don't really have problem with the -strange- perspective, but in this case I guess the lighting needs to help how to read the picture..

I tried again   :hehe: hope you don't mind  :-[
(http://kakikukeko.free.fr/images/2mnormal%20edit.png)
(this time really rushed in photoshop so  no idea of the number of extra colors needed for that.. I hope you can offer it ^^)
I didn't touch them, but I think the barels need to be more shiny, they look the same material as the floor right now...



Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 22, 2007, 08:02:54 am
hey glad the edit was useful  ;)

Overall it starts to look like something!
I really like the textures on the wall.

Personally I don't really have problem with the -strange- perspective, but in this case I guess the lighting needs to help how to read the picture..

I tried again   :hehe: hope you don't mind  :-[
(http://kakikukeko.free.fr/images/2mnormal%20edit.png)
(this time really rushed in photoshop so  no idea of the number of extra colors needed for that.. I hope you can offer it ^^)
I didn't touch them, but I think the barels need to be more shiny, they look the same material as the floor right now...





Wow thanks dude.. That really helps :D. Haha your so usefull :P. That really gives it some depht.

Anyway Gil what makes you think im trying to use iso as a perspective.. Im trying to use the same old RPG perspective all anime games have... Or most of them.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Gil on March 22, 2007, 08:33:55 am
I can't think of any classic rpg that doesn't use isometric...
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Panda on March 22, 2007, 09:05:59 am
I can't think of any classic rpg that doesn't use isometric...

Zelda, Dragon quest, Final Fantasy etc?
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: RhysD on March 22, 2007, 11:34:21 am
A lot of the SNES RPG's like Secret of Mana etc were 3/4 view, kind of like what ZoSo is trying to achieve at the moment. Games like X-Com, Diablo etc are Isometric.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 22, 2007, 03:18:51 pm
Allright, i made the wall a bit darker and so. And there the first enemies!.. The worms, kinda like an virus.

(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/9282/tilesupdatedj2.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Gil on March 23, 2007, 01:57:45 am
Zelda, Dragon quest, Final Fantasy etc?

Those were all isometric as far as I remember... at least all the Final Fantasies were

http://bigbluebubble.com/pixeltutorial/22.gif
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: alkaline on March 23, 2007, 02:04:26 am
uh, what?



anyways, about the worms, there should be some way to tell that they are enemies. some may think it's just part of the background or something.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Helm on March 23, 2007, 02:51:00 am
GIl, you know well enough that when in pixel-art context we refer to isometric, we are talking about 3/4 perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_projection). Whereas the top-down angled FF or Dragon Quest style is a planometric perspective as well, so there's no confusion, nobody - thus far - has ever reffered to it as iso. Besides you, now. So it begs the question, is the confusion you're creating over nothing, helping ZoSo with his piece? Is it helping anyone?
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Turbo on March 23, 2007, 03:37:06 am
I agree that the perspective of the characters doesn't work/match the one used on the background. You should either do what gil said about vertically "compressing" the tiles, applying foreshortening on them, or doing that to the characters themselves.

I did an edit on the character, look at the dudes on the right. Two versions with foreshortening, the left one is with some, but i felt it needed more to fit the background, so i did the right one. You'd leave the floor tiles intact but apply this same technique to the wall tiles.

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3503/turbotilesupdatedj2we6.png)

Edit: nice, just noticed i repeated Terley's post. Nhoh.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 23, 2007, 02:04:40 pm
I agree that the perspective of the characters doesn't work/match the one used on the background. You should either do what gil said about vertically "compressing" the tiles, applying foreshortening on them, or doing that to the characters themselves.

I did an edit on the character, look at the dudes on the right. Two versions with foreshortening, the left one is with some, but i felt it needed more to fit the background, so i did the right one. You'd leave the floor tiles intact but apply this same technique to the wall tiles.

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3503/turbotilesupdatedj2we6.png)

Edit: nice, just noticed i repeated Terley's post. Nhoh.

Your edit doesn't really show like terleys :P. They look like midgets.. but i get what you were trying to show, thanks. Anyway i don't really like that perspective, i rather have the chars and tiles not match.. after all, it doesn't matter.. Look at Zelda.

Anyway Gil, FF isn't iso.. you obviously don't know what iso is.. so yea.. Anyway thanks everyone :). Ill fix the worms somehow, they were made pretty fast.. Next edit will contain some new tiles, make sure to check back when i edit my post.. in a while :D
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: huZba on March 23, 2007, 04:03:52 pm
Looks great, but the thing that's been bothering me a lot for a while is that small floor tile. To me it looks like it's making a really nasty moire effect or whatchamacallit. Makes the picture really hard to look at. It also swallows those worms and characters. Maybe lower the contrast on the tiles and make them bigger.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: crab2selout.png on March 23, 2007, 06:49:06 pm
Looks great, but the thing that's been bothering me a lot for a while is that small floor tile. To me it looks like it's making a really nasty moire effect or whatchamacallit. Makes the picture really hard to look at. It also swallows those worms and characters. Maybe lower the contrast on the tiles and make them bigger.
I second that. Your floor tiles jump out too much for something that should be in the background. Try using a more restricted ramp on floor areas to lower contrast like huZba said..
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Gil on March 24, 2007, 02:28:57 am
Anyway Gil, FF isn't iso.. you obviously don't know what iso is.. so yea...

Obviously. Isometric, for your information is anything without vanishing points, with vanishing parallels, which your piece obviously is supposed to be. However, the way you handle it (projectional) looks way wrong, and makes it look flat. I suggest you don't use square floor tiles, unless you're looking straight down on them...
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Stwelin on March 24, 2007, 02:43:56 am
Anyway Gil, FF isn't iso.. you obviously don't know what iso is.. so yea...

Obviously. Isometric, for your information is anything without vanishing points, with vanishing parallels, which your piece obviously is supposed to be. However, the way you handle it (projectional) looks way wrong, and makes it look flat. I suggest you don't use square floor tiles, unless you're looking straight down on them...

The meaning of isometric is, simply, "of the same measure." (or of equal dimension)
However, in regards to pixel art (as helm mentioned) isometric refers to 3/4 perspective.

Let's not confuse our terms.

--

Anyway, in regards to the piece, the middle alteration of the sprite perspective in Turbo's edit looks the most correct to me. The proplem is the back wall doesn't seem to be in the same perspective as the trash bins. The wall could easily fit into a platformer, with no major overhauling. Either the trash bins need to be changed, or the wall needs to appear as though it is being looking down upon, rather than looked forward at.

Also, it might be in the piece's best interest to expand the canvas upward, and fill in the 'top' surface of the wall, to give a little more insight as to what is going on with the overall perspective.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Gil on March 24, 2007, 02:52:39 am
We're not discussing different terms here, the point is that the perspective is totally bonkers and needs fixing...
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ptoing on March 24, 2007, 03:26:50 am
Gil, cool down a bit. As a game perspective it works. Look at 2D Zelda games for example, dungeons are perfectly top down with an imaginary vanishing point, outside of dungeons stuff generally faces you in an orthographic way (like in many vertical shmups such as Dodonpachi) and link and the enemies are more or less sideone when walking left or right. Does it make sense from a logical point of view? No. Does it make sense from a gameplay point of view? Yes. There is not a single 2D game with proper perspective, NOT ONE. A game has to read fine and play well foremost, other things come second to that, perspective is somewhere at the ass of the list of things needed in a game.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 24, 2007, 01:43:16 pm
Yes look at Zelda.. You walk on walls... And its still one of the most popular snes games.. ever.

Anyway a new update, hope what i added to the wall helps a bit.

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2862/picturens1.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: Evil-Ville on March 24, 2007, 02:06:49 pm
I think my brain just did a backflip after I looked at those small floor tiles for a while. They are way too distracting imo, even in 2x zoom.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: crab2selout.png on March 24, 2007, 06:15:02 pm
wow. loving the zombies/infected people and the blood is grossing me out. Great job!

Now you defintely need to fix the floor tiles cuz the sprites look too good in comparison.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG
Post by: ZoSo on March 29, 2007, 07:26:50 pm
Been a while eh?

(http://godborn.com/images/mockups/tgmpnewest.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: Sharm on March 29, 2007, 08:08:21 pm
It looks like a game!  You've come a long way.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: ZoSo on April 01, 2007, 10:24:01 am
Thank you :)

WIP picture inside a small ship :o. Im not sure how i should do with that door.. it looks wrong in some way, or perhaps im wrong :O.

(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8405/tngaax1.png)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: kakikukeko on April 01, 2007, 11:54:45 am
Glad to see a new BG! Good start, I like it!  ;D
The door doesn't look bad to me..
the only thing slightly off would be the rectangular part at the bottom IMO, I would add a cast shadow on the top of that light green rectangle... (with the purplish grey)
nice job though..
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: ZoSo on April 06, 2007, 07:13:58 pm
Allright, here is the character animation.. moving south. Im not used to animate more realistic characters.. I find anime characters allot easier. Mainly becouse they are usually allot more .. chubby.

(http://img470.imageshack.us/img470/5584/charactermovingen2.gif)

I think i know whats wrong.. he walks like an zombie, ill fix that :).
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: Helm on April 06, 2007, 07:28:07 pm
usually people walk left hand, right leg front, then opposite
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: gliding on April 06, 2007, 07:55:00 pm
Lol, more like always.

Since this is going to be an mmo, i suggest you add more frames to these sprites, it won't hurt since they're so small. A bit more effort would help you out here.
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: ZoSo on April 06, 2007, 08:01:21 pm
usually people walk left hand, right leg front, then opposite

Oh yea.. I was trying not to make that mistake, guess i messed up hah xD. Anyway Fixed.
Looks better now xD.

(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3701/charactermovingcorrectgq4.gif)
Title: Re: Character and Tiles, Sci-Fi ORPG ( update )
Post by: BadMrBox on April 07, 2007, 01:04:46 am
I think that it would hurt if you speeded up the animation a bit.