Pixelation

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Peppermint Pig on November 16, 2006, 03:41:25 pm

Title: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Peppermint Pig on November 16, 2006, 03:41:25 pm
So, MS Paint. Crap, or total crap?   ;)

 How do you compare the different versions?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 16, 2006, 03:45:39 pm
I voted 1, but it's a 1 which converges towards 0.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: goat on November 16, 2006, 03:52:04 pm
Megacrap. No animation, no way to handle multiple files without opening multiple instances of the program, no on the fly palette manipulation, no layers, craptacular color selection.

99% of the people who say MSPaint is "just as good for pixeling" don't pixel at a volume or at a level where they would notice how inadequate it is. The other 1% are just crazy.

IMO using MSPaint is like opening a beer bottle on the edge of your coffee table because you're too lazy to go out and get a bottle opener.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 16, 2006, 03:55:20 pm
IMO using MSPaint is like opening a beer bottle on the edge of your coffee table because you're too lazy to go out and get a bottle opener.

And using Promotion is like opening it with your teeth because you are awesome.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 16, 2006, 03:57:11 pm
I gave it a 4.
While it did it's job for me in the past and was the program that got me started, right now it feels so slow and retarded after switching to ProMotion.
Also kinda stupid how they removed the transparency ability.
But I guess better than nothing. Still nice for pasting screenshots fastly though.

Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: snake on November 16, 2006, 04:00:04 pm
MS Paint is not a good program and It's not a diverse program. It's a very simple program that does just the most basic pixel drawing effects. In a way, that's what I like about it. It's like writing in notepad. It's just for writing, and then you save. (Not a good example as you can code HTML in it, but you get my point.) If I want advanced stuff like brushes, effects, filters, multiple editing tools and such, I'll use photoshop or some other program. I don't want to defend Paint, and certainly not Microsoft. Other programs are certainly a lot better both in productivity and technology. MS Paint is there if you feel like using it.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Scotteh on November 16, 2006, 04:11:11 pm
I gave it an 8, its the program I know how to use. I have downloaded pmotion and graphics gale but i don't know how to use them. :'(
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 16, 2006, 04:14:52 pm
Scotteh: Read the manual that comes with them? F1?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: goat on November 16, 2006, 04:18:26 pm
Definitely wanna read the manual for ProMotion... all the core features are easy to find, but if you don't read the manual you miss out on a lot of its more badass features.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: 9_6 on November 16, 2006, 04:44:22 pm
Well sometimes limitations can be inspiring but paints limitations are just... well, too limiting.
No layers, no transparency, only one zoom scale, no selections, no comfort, no use.
I guess that's why it contains the word 'pain', let alone that it was made by microsoft.

1 star for this one.
ANYTHING is better than paint.
Even the most simple java oekaki program.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 16, 2006, 04:54:22 pm
sven... perhaps it would be best if those reticent to get into the mighty promotion should start with one of the older versions? say... version 1 for example then work up from there... I have to admit it can be daunting at first - but it seriously PISSES all over MSPAINT from a dizzy height... and I'm talking like as high as the moon.

I know what it's like to 'migrate' from something we're used to using - I've said this before on these boards - but when I moved from Dpaint to promotion back when it was first released I did it kicking and screaming... I hated it at first, but stick with it... it becomes second nature... the only reason I reacted badly to it initially was because Jan (zimmerman) did 'something' with the shortcuts (he was attempting to a windows version of dpaint) - which is why I was initially attracted to it in the first place... but, those DAMN shortcuts... but I got used to em... besides... in the latest version you can define your own anyway...

MS PAINT has it's benefits for those who are interested in pixeling... but as soon as you go beyond interest and into the hobby arena then you seriously should consider changing over to it... (or GGale if that's what you fancy)


l8rs


Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 16, 2006, 04:59:11 pm
Well i went from paint shop pro 6 to promotion 4.7 and I only found it slightly odd for about 1 week of using it, it has a good manual as well. People should just learn how to read manuals and not ask stupid questions without thinking a bit beforehand.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on November 16, 2006, 05:01:20 pm
MS Paint is for ignorant lazy people.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: SolidIdea on November 16, 2006, 05:05:04 pm
3, because the pallete management utterly sucks.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: The B.O.B. on November 16, 2006, 05:22:17 pm
Not gonna say much, or else I'll get me' balls bitten off by the hounds. I use M.S. Paint for pixel art. I now have photoshop, but I don't really like using it for pixel art, Ironically because I FIND IT SLOW AND CLUNKY. But that may be because it's still pretty new to me...I'm still a learnin' though...Oh I put 10 by the way...
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 16, 2006, 06:32:10 pm
Not gonna say much, or else I'll get me' balls bitten off by the hounds. I use M.S. Paint for pixel art. I now have photoshop, but I don't really like using it for pixel art, Ironically because I FIND IT SLOW AND CLUNKY. But that may be because it's still pretty new to me...I'm still a learnin' though...Oh I put 10 by the way...

pshop is slow and clunky for direct to screen pixel art that's why... ;) - if you like MS Paint fair enough... I like sketching with  BIC pens during my life class and it drives the tutor nuts - but I don't give a shit co I like it and I'm allowed to have opinions cos I'm old enough and wise enough to think for myself - (when I was 16 and at college in the 80's i'd have cracked under the strain of the tutor's advice... but now... I don't care) - so - fair play to you for admitting it... you're a brave soul... and judging some of the work I've seen you make in the past I'm quite impressed.

Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Blick on November 16, 2006, 09:46:20 pm
I don't pixel for a living, I don't animate usually, so MS Paint does the stuff I need it to do. If I ever need something that requires layers, multiple files, better palette control (eyedropper may be slow to most, but it's pretty smooth going for me) and shortcuts, then I'll look into Pro Motion.

It still does lack the ability to make transparency, so I knocked it down to an 8.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on November 16, 2006, 10:05:04 pm
gave it a seven, while I dont deny its limitations, I dont think its that terrible a program, its been around for a long time and everyone has it.
at the moment I use a combination of mspaint, photoshop and image ready when Im animating.. which I dont really recommend, I plan on learning promotion now that I have a ton of freetime, but I still think while paint has its limitations, its a decent program, especially for pixelling

technique over technology
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: David on November 16, 2006, 10:44:03 pm
Paint has everything I need and nothing I don't.

I want it explained to me how using a program that apparently has no time or effort saving features makes one lazy.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Faktablad on November 16, 2006, 10:49:24 pm
Gave it a five.

Obviously there are a multitude of things which are poorly designed in the program:  odd palette management, practically no shortcut keys, can't save to GIF properly, no animation, etc.  However, there are a few things that I really like about it.  I like the one window interface, something I don't see in PM or GG (unless someone who is proficient in these programs has somehing to say otherwise).  The ability to resize the canvas fluidly and not be prompted before making anything is great.  It's more of what snake said.  I like that I can just open it up over other programs and sketch without having to undergo some nonsense like a loading screen or an option window. 

There is one thing to be said for it, and that is this: it helps keep the pixel art community alive by making an art program accessible to practically anybody.  It's not great on the technical side, but it's there for anyone to pick up.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 16, 2006, 11:22:33 pm
i gave it a 7. im not saying its some great pixel art program, it gets the job done. its just plain and simple, i dont need millions of features, i dont need 2000 hot keys, i dont need to be able to zoom to the point where a pixel is like half an inch on the screen. whenever i open up my promotion trial, everything is just so cluttered, so many tools, so many windows, so much stuff! if paint had animation capabilites, i wouldnt need any other program.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Hero on November 16, 2006, 11:37:06 pm
8. I know its high, but though innefficent it can still do a job almost as well.

Like using a pen instead of a pencil in my opinion.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Frychiko on November 17, 2006, 12:00:53 am
I'd vote a 0 if it were there, oh well 1 it is.

Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 17, 2006, 12:37:21 am
One.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Akira on November 17, 2006, 12:59:44 am
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
for quick linearts i like it (i do lines and colours in seperate sessions normally). then i sometimes take the good linearts into promo cause of the nicer colour handling. ms paint isn't good. but it can be useful when you just want an oekaki type sketchy thing.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: goat on November 17, 2006, 03:23:47 am
David: it's because your butt smells.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Zach on November 17, 2006, 04:03:24 am
<3 mspaint... my best bud :)

and always will be.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Delgneith on November 17, 2006, 05:29:45 am
I have to admit I grew up on MS Paint. From Windows 3.1 to Windows XP. I'm not going to lie and say it's the most efficient program but the job can get done just the same as it can in other programs save for animation and proper color indexing. You can create any picture in that program as in another it's just a matter of why would you want to.

At the end of the day we are pixel artists though. Not like we're choosing the easiest way to get stuff done. I mean why anti-alias pixel by pixel when Photoshop can do it? Well for one it's because we can (also some of the AA algorithms out there are a bit sketchy). But it's a tedious task either way laying out stuff pixel by pixel so why not use Paint?

I'm going give it a 5 because it's both a good starting point but also horrible for efficiency.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 17, 2006, 05:35:04 am
Quote
I mean why anti-alias pixel by pixel when Photoshop can do it?

Because we do it better than machines, and on a case-by-case basis. More sharpness there, more definition there, more blur there, whatever. It's not just masochism.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 17, 2006, 06:21:12 am
Because we do it better than machines, and on a case-by-case basis. More sharpness there, more definition there, more blur there, whatever. It's not just masochism.
Though arguably most of that would be achieved as well by a combination of auto-aa, masking of the layer holding the auto-aaed version, and blurring, with a little touchup, depending on image scale. I've experimented with that successfully. The main value in doing it manually is better artistic flow (by which i mean mental flow), say I.

I just tried it again, and agree with the above still. The obstacle is mainly, when you apply AA yourself, you're working forwards (adding to the picture). When you're reversing AA, you're working backwards (removing what's been added)

Quote from: Delgneith
also some of the AA algorithms out there are a bit sketchy
Really? I thought it was pretty simple for most kinds of AA.. just 'how much of this sub-pixel triangle falls into this pixel?' (which can be done by basic arithmetic). The only AA sketchiness i've seen is quantization (only, say, 16 levels of AA). Which wouldn't normally effect pixel art. Do you have any examples?


MsPaint: '640k should be enough for anyone' should summarize why it's a bad app. It's bezier tool is okay IIRC, okay enough to warrant 3 points.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ZoSo on November 17, 2006, 08:29:47 am
I dont like mspaint, never pixeled in it and never used it. I use photoshop to pixel now since im very used to the layout and everything, and changing tools through letters.

Before i pixeled in PS i used gamesfactory's crappy GFX tool thingy. For 1-2 years or so, i loved it.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Feron on November 17, 2006, 09:06:11 am
started on paint, so i'll give it a 3.  i use photoshop cos i use mac  ;D.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Matriax on November 17, 2006, 10:43:02 am
Vote 1.

Use mspaint about 3/4 years and continue using mspaint while learn promotion and get practice.

I pixeled too many time in MsPaint, and know MsPaint is slow/bad... for pixelling, and any program is better than MsPaint to pixel.. But MsPaint is very simple to use and for the people begin in this found in MsPaint a simple interface with the minimun options for pixelling and practice.

Its possible if any people is interested in pixel-art and download promotion when open the program and view all the options etc... close the program or use in 2 o 3 times and out. But think with MsPaint the user when open the program like the simply of the program and the easy use and practice more and like pixel-art etc.. and after when have practice use a promotion or any profesional program.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Evil-Ville on November 17, 2006, 11:07:35 am
I voted 1. I spent two and a half years pixeling with it because I was afraid to change. Then I talked to ptoing and bought Pro Motion Lite and everything was all fine and dandy.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: robotriot on November 17, 2006, 05:11:23 pm
I gave it two stars because once or twice in my life, I've used it on computers that had nothing else installed, and it helped beating my boredom. Still, it's not really a good program.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Xion on November 18, 2006, 12:57:23 am
4.
I still use it sometimes, and, as David said,
Quote
Paint has everything I need and nothing I don't.
Still, I use GGale because I've been animating quite a bit lately, and MSPaint doesn't have the ability to rotate between +/-90 degrees.

Honestly, it's all the same to me. As long as its got all the basics. (Paint having the minimum requirements)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Lackey on November 18, 2006, 01:23:28 am
I gave it a two because it's still better than "not doing art"

David: laziness doesn't always entail avoiding work, but also avoiding change and staying with what's comfortable even if it's worse for you.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 18, 2006, 01:31:35 am
what if that comfortability enables you to produce better art?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 18, 2006, 02:26:19 am
what if that comfortability enables you to produce better art?
That's an argument against using MSPaint -- if comfortability enables better art (You've said implicitly that you value being able to produce better art), then naturally you should take pains to become comfortable with the most effective tool that is at your disposal.

NOTE: the above reflects more on the nature of your argument than my own evaluation of the situation. I think a sort of satisfied discomfort facilitates the best art.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 18, 2006, 02:36:33 am
then naturally you should take pains to become comfortable with the most effective tool that is at your disposal.

why so? why fix whats not broken?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 18, 2006, 03:30:07 am
why so? why fix whats not broken?

Being open to new things is always a good thing. Try Promotion for a bit longer and if you have questions, just read the manual, and if you then still have questions pm me, I am almost as complete as the manual and I prolly can point you to some stuff that is a bit more obscure :P
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Soup on November 18, 2006, 03:32:05 am
I started spriting with Paint.
It get's the job done for me but that is probably only because I am a newbie spriter. Eventually it will probably be crap to me as well.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 18, 2006, 05:04:02 am
Being open to new things is always a good thing. Try Promotion for a bit longer and if you have questions, just read the manual, and if you then still have questions pm me, I am almost as complete as the manual and I prolly can point you to some stuff that is a bit more obscure :P
i did a little 45 minute sprite with it.
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1389/first2yf4.png)
the pallette changing is wonderful, youve converted me.






i expect a copy of promotion at my door on christmas day, ptoing.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Silver on November 18, 2006, 06:55:59 am
Ms-paint isn't bad or anything, its just that it has no Features that other programs from the 80s and 90s had
such as Dulex paint (animation, color wise and so).
Anyway the whole issue isn't about the tool artist use but the artist himself.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 18, 2006, 10:08:04 am
Wow. Lots of people here don't like MS Paint *tugs at her shirt collar* lol

Well, I gave it a 9. Why? I like it alot. I can do pixel art with it. lol
That and it's the only program I've ever used for pixel art. So I'm totally in the dark about all these other programs you guys are talking about.

I use Photoshop to make things transparent, and I also use it to save my pixel work as GIFs without losing any color (which MS Paint does for some reason).

As for making animated sprites, I use a little handy program called UnFREEz. It's very basic, but it does the job.

One feature I'd like MS Paint to have is a "layer" feature where I can open a hand-drawn pic, and pixel over it without actually effecting the pic. ...If ya all know what I mean. lol
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Skull on November 18, 2006, 02:05:21 pm
<3 mspaint... my best bud :)

and always will be.

Indeed.
Just a shame about the palette management and trans. Other than that, It's my gold... or fool's gold.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: grendel on November 18, 2006, 04:29:14 pm
It's a basic image editor that comes with windows. BASIC... there are better image editors out there, like photoshop and even paint shop.. or god forbid GIMP... (which is actually a wee bit better these days). I know that these do not cater for pixelart but mspaint doesn't either.

Photoshop is awesome as a tool for all sorts of image manipulation and editing. Painter is great for emulating traditional media. Paint-shop pro and the rest are a bit cack... but essentially perform a similar role to photoshop... but paint.. (cough, cough) paint is like the pocket knife of an image editor. You'd only ever use it if there was NOTHING else available.

Something like pro-motion is MADE for pixelling. Argument over. Why even argue about it?

Winners don't use MSpaint
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Rawsushi on November 18, 2006, 06:20:26 pm
Old argument.

I own Pro Motion; I went out of my way to get it--- and you know what? I STILL use MS Paint. Why? Because every time I open up Pro Motion, I feel like a fucking idiot. How could a program that's used to create such a simple form of art be so ridiculously complex? I'm sure that if I studied the program a bit, I'd grow to love it. Meh. I guess I'll start studying that manual again...

Old habits are hard to break.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 18, 2006, 06:30:50 pm
very well put monsoon.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Godslayer on November 18, 2006, 06:44:50 pm
Straying from the Promotion vs MSPaint discussion, is a MSPaint pallete competition an old idea? Im sure it is, but that would be fun if it were (re)made.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Zach on November 18, 2006, 07:05:45 pm
Winners don't use MSpaint

I am not a winner.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 18, 2006, 08:20:59 pm
Perhaps I will to try to make a ProMotion for Dummies Tutorial at some point :B
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: the_x_factor on November 18, 2006, 09:31:40 pm
Well, I use MS Paint, I gave it a 5. It's not the best program for pixel art/sprites. But it "can" do what you want. No, it don't have layers, or animation, or even transparency as far as i know. But it works. Personally, I tried GGale and didn't like it. I have Photoshop, but i don't like using that for pixel art. I just stick with paint, because personally, I like the simple feel of Paint. And I been using it so long, it's not hard to do stuff, and I can make decent things(at least i think they're decent) pretty fast.

I have never heard of Promotion though. I may go download the trial in a bit to see how it is.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 18, 2006, 10:11:04 pm
Perhaps I will to try to make a ProMotion for Dummies Tutorial at some point :B
OR
you could send all of us money to get it in the first place.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Evil-Ville on November 18, 2006, 11:01:41 pm
OR you could buy the lite version like I did. Anyone who has enough money to own a computer should be able to buy it.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Akira on November 18, 2006, 11:37:55 pm
on pro-mo what features are limited when the trial period is over?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 19, 2006, 12:06:04 am
It's a basic image editor that comes with windows. BASIC... there are better image editors out there, like photoshop and even paint shop.. or god forbid GIMP... (which is actually a wee bit better these days). I know that these do not cater for pixelart but mspaint doesn't either.
Re: GIMP: recent versions compare favorably to other paint programs in pixeling capability. see:
http://dgowers-tech.livejournal.com/2310.html
for a summary of recently added things that are apropos to pixel art. Notable things are the ability to change to next/prev color in palette, and clipboard brush/pattern.
Next/prev color was added by me, and specifically facilitates pixelling (though is also good for CG or cel-shaded work)
Personally, I consider it more useful than Pro Motion for pixeling.. part of that reason is that I like to code a lot, and it makes it easy for me to try out theories and ideas (eg auto-aa, auto-colorcleaning, auto-scaling, morphing, and more mundane things like global or selection-restricted single color changes...)
It certainly has no indexpainting tools like ProMotion does. I would however rate it above the likes of Graphics Gale.

Quote
Something like pro-motion is MADE for pixelling. Argument over. Why even argue about it?

Winners don't use MSpaint
True..

Quote
Because every time I open up Pro Motion, I feel like a fucking idiot.
Strange.. it seems simple to me. Have you tried DeluxePaintIIe ? It serves as a good introduction to much of the functionality included in ProMotion.

My only objection to ProMotion personally is that it runs in Windows only, and has an obnoxious UI. (I'm counting that as one because those two things usually seem to go together.)

Quote
on pro-mo what features are limited when the trial period is over?
Trial period? I don't recall such a thing. IIRC saving is always restricted in the trial version. You can only save as SPR or .. (something else)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on November 19, 2006, 02:18:41 am
Wow. Someone actually said Pro Motion has an obnoxious UI compared to...The GIMP? That's one for the record books. XD

Being a former Graphics Gale user, I can say that it's a good cheap ($20) alternative to Pro Motion, but only if you're willing to put some work into getting it set up correctly. Pro Motion comes with a well defined window and hotkey setup out of the box, whereas GGale is meant to be customized from the bottom up.

You'll have to set up everything from getting windows sized and docked in the right place to setting up hotkeys for tools and operations. I had a really efficient hotkey setup where everything was centered around the ASDF keys so I could leave my right hand on the mouse and not have to reach all over the place to switch tools and perform operations.

Ultimately, the main reasons I switched to Pro Motion where it's brushes palette and paint modes. I do miss GGale's layers though...

Graphics Gale is a good buy if you want a small, fast, customizable pixel pusher. However, like I said before, if you're stupid and lazy, you're much better off just living inside your little safety bubble and running mspaint.exe.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 19, 2006, 03:57:27 am
Wow. Someone actually said Pro Motion has an obnoxious UI compared to...The GIMP? That's one for the record books. XD
One of my main criteria for non/obnoxiousness is not having to look at pointless UI all the time. Mostly, paint programs provide a fullscreen toggle, which hides all the UI. But in my experience, it is better to only see the image and be able to move around to see other parts of the UI:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/neota/gimptips/virtual-screen.png)
If I have to see any UI that is not relevant to what I'm doing, that's a bad UI. If I can usually see just what I want for what I'm doing, that's a good UI.

So most of the time I'm drawing, there is only the image window to look at. And if I want something else (like the color selector) I can just move the mouse 'offscreen' to shift the viewport.

The lack of virtual screen is endemic to Windows, so far as I know. Both MacOsX and Linux (and probably FreeBSD) provide the requisite virtual screen capability. I haven't ever seen it on Windows. Maybe some part of Windows' design precludes implementing it. Regardless, the lack of it is the kind of horribleness that is often not perceived until it is cured.


Does Graphics Gale have the ability to assign hotkeys to move through the palette colors? I regard this as vital for pixelling, and I've heard nothing to suggest it does have such a feature, which is why I presently rank it below GIMP.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 19, 2006, 06:45:53 am
Virtual screen is how much more useful than a keypress toggle of the UI on and off like photoshop does or whatever?  I find ProMo to be very easy to use on the basic level that I do now, I usually only have main window, preview window and tool window on-screen. How much less do I need than that? 80% of the screen is art. And the mouse pointer rarely leaves that area.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 19, 2006, 10:32:13 am
Virtual screen is how much more useful than a keypress toggle of the UI on and off like photoshop does or whatever?
Much, simply because it does not waste me time finding things by causing things to change position or size (or visibility at all) between fullscreen and normal mode.
And everything is more accessible -- a single tablet movement far surpasses a keypress in speed and ease.

Quote
I find ProMo to be very easy to use on the basic level that I do now,
Quite likely. Part of my dislike of its UI is because of its Windows-based widgets, which I find cranky and uncustomizable compared to the GTK+ widgets that GIMP uses (esp. on non-Windows platforms where it is not obligated to maintain compatibility with Windows' bad design decisions.)

Quote
How much less do I need than that? 80% of the screen is art. And the mouse pointer rarely leaves that area.
For optimal speed and quality, it seems plain to me that 100% of the screen should be art (you can see in my screenshot, I don't even have that much. 93%) and that any additional windows you need should be accessible in a maximally ergonomic way (In my judgement, sliding around ('scrolling' the virtual screen) is more ergonomic than toggling, mainly because human vision naturally understands scrolling)
I don't know what you need (or even what I need); I just think the scheme I described is markedly more natural and efficient than typical paint program usage (which IMO my previous setup and usage was fairly typical of)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Rox on November 19, 2006, 11:08:29 pm
I may not be a winner, but I'M BAD

Bad enough a dude to use MS Paint and like it.

I voted 8* because... well... even if it sucks compared to other programs, you could do SO much worse. Imagine a program with no zoom function, only one tool with only one brush size, one file format that no other program recognizes, uneditable palette... That'd be a 1* right there. In comparison, Paint is definitely high up. Makes it even better that, no matter where you are, if there's a Windows computer nearby, it's got Paint on it. It's great to be able to whip up stuff if you're sitting at school, or... In the library or whatever. Open up paint, doodle some, put it on Photobucket or whatever and download it at home and finish it. Or whatever. Like. Dude.

Anyway.. um... yes. Paint gets to be an 8. Or at least a 7. The software itself is probably 6 or 7, but it's so accessable, I give it an 8.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: David on November 21, 2006, 09:36:13 am
I've completely changed my mind. Paint sucks as do traditional mediums. With a pencil and paper you can't undo or use layers or make level or color adjustments and don't even think about resizing or filters. Doing something with a pencil and paper is just too much work.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 21, 2006, 10:10:43 am
Imagine a program with no zoom function, only one tool with only one brush size, one file format that no other program recognizes, uneditable palette... That'd be a 1* right there.

That's like saying how much better an HB pencil is compared to a pencil that has no led at all
(and OMG that ledless pencil is way better than having nothing, works charms when picking my nose, so I'll give it a 7 :o!!).
Duh.

If such program existed I doubt anyone would consider it for pixel art and thus making your statement rather useless, since it wouldnt be a pixelling directed program anymore.
Maybe as a quick scribbling program if anything.
Though it would be a nice litte add on watches and the like.
But here we are rating how MS paint is compared to other pixel art directed programs, not what could be worse :X


Edit:

Perhaps I will to try to make a ProMotion for Dummies Tutorial at some point :B

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/Hagane/promotionfordummies_.png)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 21, 2006, 10:33:30 am
Much, simply because it does not waste me time finding things by causing things to change position or size (or visibility at all) between fullscreen and normal mode.
And everything is more accessible -- a single tablet movement far surpasses a keypress in speed and ease.
Quite likely. Part of my dislike of its UI is because of its Windows-based widgets, which I find cranky and uncustomizable compared to the GTK+ widgets that GIMP uses (esp. on non-Windows platforms where it is not obligated to maintain compatibility with Windows' bad design decisions.)
For optimal speed and quality, it seems plain to me that 100% of the screen should be art (you can see in my screenshot, I don't even have that much. 93%) and that any additional windows you need should be accessible in a maximally ergonomic way (In my judgement, sliding around ('scrolling' the virtual screen) is more ergonomic than toggling, mainly because human vision naturally understands scrolling)
I don't know what you need (or even what I need); I just think the scheme I described is markedly more natural and efficient than typical paint program usage (which IMO my previous setup and usage was fairly typical of)


I'm sorry AI I fail to see your point...

As far as I can tell you appear to be advocating your chosen pixel editor purely because you have a hang up on the way that windows operates?

"use linux it's much better..." is what I'm hearing... and I've heard that a thousand times before from a thousand coders who have a beef with MS - but I'm afraid as awesome as Linux may be, it's main problem is that MS-windows (or MacOS for that matter) is a mainstream OS... and Linux... is... well... not...

Admittedly, I appreciate it has it's merits but the fact it's not Windows seriously restricts it from mainstream usage - particularly for the purposes of these boards, forums that are mostly made up of artists that CANT PROGRAM and have NO IDEA about the uber package you're describing...

My point being that you appear to advocating not only a pixel editing package, but also a platform that I can pretty much guarantee 99.9% of the users of this forum know little or indeed care little about... perhaps I'm way off the mark here - but that's how I'm interpreting your posts.

Ok, fairdoos, you prefer it to Promotion and GGale and MSPAINT (which after all was what this was about?!?!) - so by all means use it and enjoy it, but please, keep the pulpit style sermons about how great it is to a minimum - or better yet, start a new thread about it if you feel that passionate about it... Perhaps I'm sounding a bit harsh, and I apologise for that, but I'm genuinely curious about what you're trying to demo here but I don't think this is the thread to do that in.

Cheers
Pete
:)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Darien on November 21, 2006, 10:42:40 am
I've completely changed my mind. Paint sucks as do traditional mediums. With a pencil and paper you can't undo or use layers or make level or color adjustments and don't even think about resizing or filters. Doing something with a pencil and paper is just too much work.

I think this argument fails because you're comparing a tool to a medium.  That's like saying physical pencils suck, as does pixel art.  I would liken MS paint to only using one pencil, while a better program would be like using a set of a wide range of pencils.  It's just more convenient because you have more tools available.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 21, 2006, 11:21:32 am
Paint sucks as do traditional mediums.

I complete disagree with that statement. As a person who both uses MS Paint AND uses traditional mediums such as pencil and paper to draw, I find that you're overlooking the beautiful art that can be made with both.
Sure, it IS time consuming and requires alot of skill and patience; but breath-taking artwork CAN be produced with such "primitive" tools and materials.

Art knows no bounds. 3000 years ago, people were creating artwork as amazing as the most modern artworks of today.

Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 21, 2006, 11:34:37 am
I think you two are missing his sarcasm. :0
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 21, 2006, 11:37:13 am
That was sarcasm!? O_O

Don't I feel like a ditz now. >_<
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 21, 2006, 11:47:19 am
I don't think Darien is missing anything though. Valid statement.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 21, 2006, 11:55:17 am
I don't think Darien is missing anything though. Valid statement.

Sure, valid statement but from a different point of view of what I think David was trying to say.
He was pretty much supporting ms paint through trad. medium dissing sarcasm, (unless he became really lame to actually start dissing traditional art, which I doubt, heh) and not just trying to compare a program to a medium.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: crab2selout.png on November 22, 2006, 03:05:38 am
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How to Open Beer Bottles with your teeth!

Show me now. It impress the ladies much, yes?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 22, 2006, 05:54:49 am
You got that right. We swoon over such feats.
Infact, if there's a man out there who can rip the lid of a bucket of house paint off with his teeth, I'm all his.
Such skills are indeed greatly admired, useful, and respected.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 22, 2006, 06:29:03 am
I'm sorry AI I fail to see your point...

As far as I can tell you appear to be advocating your chosen pixel editor purely because you have a hang up on the way that windows operates?
That is quite different from my intent...

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"use linux it's much better..."
Actually, I haven't even said "use anything but windows". I described how and why my setup is less irritating than ProMotion on Winiows, in a reply to pkmays' comment.

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Admittedly, I appreciate it has it's merits but the fact it's not Windows seriously restricts it from mainstream usage - particularly for the purposes of these boards, forums that are mostly made up of artists that CANT PROGRAM and have NO IDEA about the uber package you're describing...
My setup required some configuration. no programming per se.
I actually find the average pixel-artist's ludditism very silly; I believe I understand that the typical rationalization is 'It's too much trouble'. I do not think this holds up when you compare to more mainstream forms of digital art: there, the technology is available, and it is used.
I just get the impression that aside from laziness as suggested above, there's a thread of 'omg I am so hardcore!' pretentiousness about restricting your choices while making your art. In my experience that doesn't work at all; If you want restrictions to work at all for you, it needs to be out of simple honest desire, or necessity. Otherwise, it leads to 'demoscene-style-deadness' (which I've seen in other places than pixelation etc, but it seems very highly concentrated here)

.. That was my stumbling contribution to the thread of sarcasm recently developing. ;)

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My point being that you appear to advocating not only a pixel editing package, but also a platform that I can pretty much guarantee 99.9% of the users of this forum know little or indeed care little about... perhaps I'm way off the mark here - but that's how I'm interpreting your posts.
That's a fair comment (I only know one other pixeller who definitely uses Linux). As i said, I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone, I just was answering pkmays disbelief that I would consider GIMP's UI better than Pro Motion's -- In my view GIMP gets an undeserved reputation for difficulty, mainly from the people who are used to Photoshop and expect it to behave just like Photoshop. ???

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or better yet, start a new thread about it if you feel that passionate about it...

Did that before :) No replies ever; that's why I posted here.. I see it as 'in passing'. I like it, it's exceptionally good at not getting in my way, and I was accounting for that like, to counter pkmays.


Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Blick on November 22, 2006, 07:02:21 am
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Show me now. It impress the ladies much, yes?
You just use your molars and withstand the pain. It screws up your teeth though. You know how dentists tell you not to chew on metal? Yeah. It's not very impressive either. It's like "Dude, you just opened that bottle with your teeth. Have fun having crooked teeth."

It really screws you up if it's one of those tricky twist caps.

Oh, more points about why I use MSpaint and not Pro Motion, GIMP, Graphics Gale, Photoshop, what have you and so on could go here, but it's not really a logical argument and I'll just say it comes down to my preference and refusal to learn a new program even though I have more spare time in my life than I've ever had before.

Oh man, GIMP confused me like no other. I never figured out how to handle palettes in it.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on November 22, 2006, 07:11:21 am
*snip of some wacky interface screenshot with mandatory labels of it's bizarre logic and operation*

I'm sorry, but from the looks of it, what you've got there is a hack that tries to make up for an interface that's seriously lacking competently designed customization options. I'd have to see it in action to really get a feel for it, but from what I can see that set up would be un-intuitive and frustrating for me to use.

My main beef with GIMP has always been it's floating palette design. Apparently they choose this road with the best intentions--to let the user design his or her own interface--but the problem is they divided the interface into islands. We both agree on not wanting to waste interface real estate with uneeded palettes, but I much prefer to set up my interface with dockable palettes that expand on mouse overs, and I especially want to have one unified main window that ties all the menu items together.

If they'd have done a good job with the dial-a-style setup, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in The GIMP's case, I'd say the project would have been much better off with a specific unified layout from the start. XSI, for example, does a great job on cramming tons of palettes into the interface while still leaving room to work, even though it lacks a lot of customization options. They have a specific workflow that users should learn, and it works quite well, and works virtually the same on Windows or Linux.

Virtual screens may be useful to some, but gaining more workspace via higher native resolution is a better option. Running at higher resolutions like 1600x1200 are a much better fix to solve the "omg I have too many palettes" problem, but it's still just covering up the fact that it could be done much, much better. Yeah, having palettes pop up at coordinate X in virtual screen Y on hotkey Ctrl+Alt+Z works, but that's something that should be handled solely by the application, identically across all platforms; not by some app/wm/os dependant setup.

With all that said, the color scheme and buttons are pretty cool looking...
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ai on November 22, 2006, 01:27:55 pm
When you say 'wacky' and 'bizarre logic' I'm inclined to think that you don't understand that the labelling was mainly to illustrate the concept of a virtual screen -- which is quite simple but you don't seem to understand it yet.


I'm sorry, but from the looks of it, what you've got there is a hack that tries to make up for an interface that's seriously lacking competently designed customization options. I'd have to see it in action to really get a feel for it, but from what I can see that set up would be un-intuitive and frustrating for me to use.
Mouse or tablet?
I would never use this UI setup with a mouse, but with a tablet I can generally whiz around and know that if I point to X spot on the tablet i will arrive at the color selector, or layers dialog, or.. without any keypresses or window-raising clicks.

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My main beef with GIMP has always been it's floating palette design. Apparently they choose this road with the best intentions--to let the user design his or her own interface--but the problem is they divided the interface into islands. We both agree on not wanting to waste interface real estate with uneeded palettes, but I much prefer to set up my interface with dockable palettes that expand on mouse overs,
That's a nice idea (and would be a good idea for gimp -- I'm not sure how you'd make it play nice with the WM). In my screenshot, all of the palettes that are visible are things I'd like to see constantly, but your scheme might work well as long as the rollovers' position remained fixed
Oh, you do realize that gimp's palettes are dockable, have been for some time? (since 2.2+) -- If not, your comments may not have much relation to the current Gimp UI :)
The Gimp UI has changed a lot since 1.3 or even 2.0 (and it's fair to say it's almost uniformly improved)

I haven't used XSI, but Blender's UI seems remarkably similar to it; its only downfall is it operates on only one document (which is IMO unacceptable for image editing software like GIMP.) It keeps things both compact and accessible, at the cost of *requiring* pointer-based navigation (is this also true of XSI?)

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and I especially want to have one unified main window that ties all the menu items together.
I see how XSI handles it, after a bit of googling. that could be good

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If they'd have done a good job with the dial-a-style setup, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in The GIMP's case, I'd say the project would have been much better off with a specific unified layout from the start.
Yes. Well, until somewhere in the universe, someone invents a kind of windowmanagement that's actually cooperative with that, we'll probably have to settle for either Single Document Interface, like XSI, or that dopey windows-in-windows thing (which is a specific implementation of Multiple Document Interface.)

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XSI, for example, does a great job on cramming tons of palettes into the interface while still leaving room to work, even though it lacks a lot of customization options. They have a specific workflow that users should learn, and it works quite well, and works virtually the same on Windows or Linux.
Virtual screens may be useful to some, but gaining more workspace via higher native resolution is a better option. Running at higher resolutions like 1600x1200 are a much better fix to solve the "omg I have too many palettes" problem, but it's still just covering up the fact that it could be done much, much better. Yeah,
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Why? You still have all those palettes on screen at all times. Virtual screen is not like a virtual desktop -- it's just like sliding a windowframe around on a larger piece of glass -- it scrolls smoothly rather than flipping.
In fact, it sounds fairly similar to the rollover idea in the way it basically works -- point to a particular area of the screen to see a dialog, point back to some other area to get back to the image.
This rollovers thing intrigues me, I must see if I can implement it.
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having palettes pop up at coordinate X in virtual screen Y on hotkey Ctrl+Alt+Z works,
Well, in my case, no shortcuts are involved, unless I want the really rarely accessed stuff; every other dialog is accessible via the menus if it's not already on-top (note the windowmanager's tabs, and gimp's tabs inside those.), and any hidden dockables, as marked in the screenshot, are accessible by mouseover+scrollwheel.; nor are coordinates involved; the dockables simply are all there upon gimp startup, and are in the appropriate frames (which are fixed rather than floating -- think of the screen being made up of tiles of different sizes.)

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but that's something that should be handled solely by the application, identically across all platforms; not by some app/wm/os dependant setup.
Well, I agree there; I think that the prevalence of the document-window-in-app-window idea reflects a shortcoming in Windows' window management. A flaw which is also present in most Linux WMs. They do not follow through on the idea that a windowing environment should leave the user alone with the app. I believe the 'tiled-frame' setup addresses this well, though it certainly requires some forethought. It isolates whatever app you are currently working in so that the only evidence of other apps is the tab bar (which can be hidden) -- or you can chuck them between frames freely if you need to work on two things at once, still you never run into window overlap annoyance or have to look at even a fractional bit of content of an irrelevant window.

Definitely, if I was using this just for GIMP, it would be going to undue lengths.
But it works pretty good for other things too:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/neota/tech/tabs.png)
(note all the apps tabbed in one frame. The weird words are not, in fact, a joke.)

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With all that said, the color scheme and buttons are pretty cool looking...
Thanks :) I made the theme myself, I called it AmigaPixel. The scrollbar needs work, I believe. Otherwise I'm pleased with it.
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Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: snake on November 22, 2006, 11:28:44 pm
Why do I get a feeling this is turning into a "My dad is stronger than your dad!" topic?

But, by all means...
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 23, 2006, 01:54:42 pm
Why do I get a feeling this is turning into a "My dad is stronger than your dad!" topic?

Because really, my dad is stronger than yours >:0
I kid, I kid,



I'm stronger than both your dad and my dad.   :D


Anyway, random facts about the program:
MS paint used to have this trick where you could add transparency by choosing a background color or something (I forgot how to, but there was a way) but back then it didnt support .png, so when saving as .gif it would fuck up your palette anyway.
It is filled with random hidden features, like x10 zoom and x4 zoom and preview window.
But they are so obscure it's useless (and you have to click here and there for finding them, which is rather unconvinient).
And I believe the strength of a program is having more features to aid you in whatever field, and not having them hidden as if they were game easter eggs.


Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on November 23, 2006, 02:02:23 pm
ahhh the easter eggs in mspaint, so bizarre I will always remember them :P
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Gunne on November 23, 2006, 02:11:30 pm
haha, I forgot about the preview window :P! Yes, I have found it back! 10 zoom, so 8 isn't the maximum?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 23, 2006, 02:16:34 pm
ah... that's better... back on track again :)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Delgneith on November 23, 2006, 03:42:15 pm
You can also create "custom brushes" in Paint simply by drawing something, selecting it, and holding shift before to start to drag it around (got to make sure you have the selection on the bottom setting, the one with transparency).
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 23, 2006, 04:00:20 pm
Yeh all these conveniently hidden features might as well be bugs and they are rather unintuitive I have to say. RECHOICE!
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 23, 2006, 05:42:28 pm
The tormentor strikes your back with the savage cat o' nine tails. It pireces skin, tendon, scars bone. You are in unrelenting agony. Next strike fails, then the next. Suddenly, the whipping almost inexplicably, just once, hits a pleasure receptive in the flesh, your torment brightened for a glimpse of a second.

Having known no other life than in that cell, you grow fond of the random blessings of the whip :)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 23, 2006, 05:59:38 pm
Ah... another "Story of O" fan...  ever been to Torture Garden helm?  :lol:



Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ndchristie on November 23, 2006, 07:46:55 pm
not much that hasnt already been said, although david your point about the pencil falls far short of its percieved purpose, because of course the two tools are intended for entirely different purposes and have little or nothing in common, save the loose connection of being able to create an image.  what it comes out to in the end is poorly thought out sarcasm that adds nothing to the discussion, save that it makes you look like an ignorant little troll that wants to impress people with the pretense of righteousness wrapped around in a healthy dose of snideness, which i know you aren't, so it would be in the best interest of you and everyone else if you would refrain from such nonsense, it's beneath you.

I gave paint a two, simply because of accessibility and the fact that you can adjust the palette (slowly,) zoom in (fairly) easily to the most commonly needed levels, and save as a variety of formats, albeit with incredible distortion.  by now there are many (many!) programs which are more suited to various goals, but also it should be kept in mind that paint has hardly changed with the times; it has hardly changed within my lifetime.  certainly it is better than claris works :P which used to come with most macs.  for those reasons, it is not quite the lowest, but there are quite obviously programs which are better suited to a wide variety of work.

my two cents on UI - the plainer the better in my opinion, although it must be accessable and always visible.  tabs and dropdowns (except for the left-click menus) are hardly a blessing to me.  hotkeys are a must-have, and in the perfect program there should be a user-defined hotkey for every possible action, or at least, one to begin the action (for the more complex filters used by GD's, DP's, RT's, and others)  Two screens or a screen that shifts with the mouse only leads to visual confusion and disorientation.  my desires are hardly the norm, but thats what works for me.  photoshop cs, i love you so, to hell with cs2.......
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 23, 2006, 08:21:31 pm
Because really, my dad is stronger than yours >:0
I kid, I kid,



I'm stronger than both your dad and my dad. :D


Anyway, random facts about the program:
MS paint used to have this trick where you could add transparency by choosing a background color or something (I forgot how to, but there was a way) but back then it didnt support .png, so when saving as .gif it would fuck up your palette anyway.
It is filled with random hidden features, like x10 zoom and x4 zoom and preview window.
But they are so obscure it's useless (and you have to click here and there for finding them, which is rather unconvinient).
And I believe the strength of a program is having more features to aid you in whatever field, and not having them hidden as if they were game easter eggs.



i use to know how to get the preview window, but have forgotten. care to tell?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 23, 2006, 08:29:18 pm
While your canvas is zoomed, View > Zoom > Show miniature or preview (or something like that) if I recall correctly :0
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Gunne on November 23, 2006, 08:30:34 pm
I've the dutch version so I don't know what its all called in English, but in the uppermenu go to Image, then Zoom In/Out and translated from dutch the next step is simply click show miniature. but I believe you have to be zoomed in to activate it!

haha, Panda beat me to it :P
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 23, 2006, 10:02:06 pm
OMG the preview window is pure sex. thanks guys! out of all the times ive opened the zoom list, i cant believe i never saw it. promotion can wait even longer now!
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 23, 2006, 10:04:23 pm
I think a previewwindow that does not allow for zooming is pretty useless. I mean, what res are you on? 800x600?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 23, 2006, 10:10:43 pm
1024x768 if those are the exact numbers.
the preview window is actually quite useful, it probably just shaved about a third of my time because now i dont have to zoom in and out.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on November 23, 2006, 10:12:53 pm
Yeh it deffo helps with that, but for proper aa checking I need 2x as well, but then again at home  work on 1920x1200 :B
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryumaru on November 23, 2006, 10:29:22 pm
yeah well, im not good enough at aa to actually have to check if its perfect, or have the knowledge to know when its wrong.:P
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Akira on November 24, 2006, 12:30:27 am
10 zoom, so 8 isn't the maximum?
heh, nope. if you click a 1px line between the 8x and the bottom of the magnification box thing you can get the 10x zoom.

oh and background colour can be set by control clicking a colour in the pallete box but it doesn't do transparency in gifs, it lets you paint with a third colour by holding control and clicking on the canvas.

but i use promotion because things aren't so backwards :P
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on November 24, 2006, 01:35:01 am
1024x768 if those are the exact numbers.
the preview window is actually quite useful, it probably just shaved about a third of my time because now i dont have to zoom in and out.
I hate the preview window, found it annoying to keep moving out of the way etc.. ctrl + pg up / ctrl + pg dn is a better solution I think ;)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Rydin on November 24, 2006, 01:58:21 am
I'm perfectly happy with with Multimedia Fusion's picture editor and Paint Shop Pro 7  :P.

But as for MS Paint... it's not bad, just time consuming.... it's like and old beater truck: hit the dash a couple times to make it start, pump the throttle if it starts to quit at a stop light, ease the breaks before stopping or else they'll slip.... :lol:

MS Paint is no where near as bad as pixeling in Apple Works 6 though....
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on November 24, 2006, 02:21:06 am
If you use MS Paint, the terrorists win. Don't let the terrorists win.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Jad on November 24, 2006, 02:45:40 am
I'm perfectly happy with with Multimedia Fusion's picture editor and Paint Shop Pro 7  :P.

But as for MS Paint... it's not bad, just time consuming.... it's like and old beater truck: hit the dash a couple times to make it start, pump the throttle if it starts to quit at a stop light, ease the breaks before stopping or else they'll slip.... :lol:

MS Paint is no where near as bad as pixeling in Apple Works 6 though....

But!

No INSTANT PALETTE EDITING (OBLIGATORY!)

and

No ANIMATION (tears of sorrow!)

makes

CRAPTASTICULAR! ; ___ ;
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 24, 2006, 06:45:46 am
But!

No INSTANT PALETTE EDITING (OBLIGATORY!)

and

No ANIMATION (tears of sorrow!)

makes

CRAPTASTICULAR! ; ___ ;

Also No multiple file manipulation without having to start another ms paint window.
No transparency and No brush container, No choosable canvas size when starting .
And No LOADS OF STUFF.

So yeah use ProMotion people (or at least something better than ms paint)

or else your genitals will shrink until they dissapear. >:0
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 24, 2006, 08:09:02 am
Let's be fair here, people...
Some of us haven't had the privilage of using more advance programs other than MS Paint yet. And some of us have, yet prefer MS Paint.
Not to mention that most of us if not all of us started our early pixel days with MS Paint. No doubt MS Paint was there, is there, and will always be there for anyone to begin the joyous hobby of pixeling.
So why dump on a program that makes it possible for anyone to get started and pixel 'til their heart's content?
Yes, it's oldschool now, and there are more advance programs out there now, but MS Paint has two things going for it. Accessability, and it's easy to use.

I'm not trying to be the righteous defender of MS Paint here... But I do believe in fair play.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 24, 2006, 08:26:29 am
Yeah you are right.
Practically we've been beating a dead horse with the MS Paint discussion.
There have been tons of threads about it. How bad it was compared to whatever, or which on is the best program for pixelling and crap like that.
Aware that if it weren't for MS Paint, many people wouldn't have started pixelling (me included).
We all know it's accesible and all. And practically it doesn't matter if anyone uses MS Paint for pixelling if they like it (We are not who to enforce the use of anything, but it's true it could be better, and there are better options).
Yet we all like to tease each other about it with threads like these :P
I guess human stupidity or something on those lines. But heh. :lol:
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Rydin on November 24, 2006, 08:39:13 am
Aware that if it weren't for MS Paint, many people wouldn't have started pixelling (me included).

So true though...


But I remember the old days, before all this MS Paint commotion, when all we had for "pixelling" was some different colors of string and a good cross stitching pattern.
/seniorcitizen

Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 24, 2006, 08:41:25 am
Yeah, I DO wish that MS Paint had more features! lol

I'm sure that when and if I start getting into something advance like ProMotion, I'll be like "How could I have ever tolerated MS Paint!? This new program is so much better!!!".

But hey, even when that day comes, I won't forget my roots. If I did, that would be like a kid, once poor, growing up in a rundown neighbourhood, eventually becoming a big star, and forgetting where she/he came from.

So, yeah. Props ought to be given where they are due.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on November 24, 2006, 08:43:59 am
I think most of us anti-MS Painters have run out of valid arguments and have been reduced to restating previously covered objections with added cynicism and inventing childish insults to dismay any current users and frustrate those who insist on defending said program's merits. I for one, am enjoying myself thoroughly.

Let's be fair here, people...
I think the moderators of this establishment are being quite fair, because if I where running the show, any user who voted more that one would be permabanned, have their IP recursively traced to it's geographical origin, with multiple satellite image triangulation, in order to precisely aim my Akira-like orbital death beam. Count your blessings.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 24, 2006, 08:49:39 am
I think the moderators of this establishment are being quite fair, because if I where running the show, any user who voted more that one would be permabanned, have their IP recursively traced to it's geographical origin, with multiple satellite image triangulation, in order to precisely aim my Akira-like orbital death beam. Count your blessings.

Ouch.

I guess I should feel ever so lucky you're not a mod. lol

I'll be sure to pray to Chuck Norris tonight for my great fortune of not being blasted to atoms.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on November 24, 2006, 09:00:23 am
Yes, well, when you tuck yourself in your warm comfy bed tonight, just take comfort in the fact that I once was one of the original OG Pixelation mods. And find solace in the thought that I worship a much more powerful god, a vengeful god, who will smite your god and every strand of his body hair:


RICHARD
DEAN
ANDERSON
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Panda on November 24, 2006, 09:02:33 am
Haha
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ryona on November 24, 2006, 09:15:54 am
MacGyver? Well I'll be damned. I believe you've trumped me, my good man.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 24, 2006, 10:01:21 am
Quote
Yes, it's oldschool now,

IT WAS NEVER OLDSCHOOL! My disabled grandmother isn't oldschool, she's disabled, salivates on herself and thinks I'm an angel sent from the lord to come and take her away whenever I come into the room with my long hair and such. If my grandmother went out and still did awesome skateboarding tricks, she'd be OLDSCHOOL AWESOME.

Remember, when windows users got mspaint, Amiga users got Deluxe Paint which is old and clunky today, but is OLDSCHOOL AWESOME compared to MSpaint. Deluxepaint was made to give a lot of graphical control for low-res machines with indexed palettes. MSpaint is made to SCRIBBLE SHIT DOWN. Seriously, people! Don't make me eat my cat here!
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Rydin on November 24, 2006, 10:05:16 am
I never thought of MS Paint as old school, cause I always think of an old 3.1 program I saw my uncle on way back....had a green UI if I remember correctly :S....
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 24, 2006, 11:15:52 am
IT WAS NEVER OLDSCHOOL! My disabled grandmother isn't oldschool, she's disabled, salivates on herself and thinks I'm an angel sent from the lord to come and take her away whenever I come into the room with my long hair and such. If my grandmother went out and still did awesome skateboarding tricks, she'd be OLDSCHOOL AWESOME.

Remember, when windows users got mspaint, Amiga users got Deluxe Paint which is old and clunky today, but is OLDSCHOOL AWESOME compared to MSpaint. Deluxepaint was made to give a lot of graphical control for low-res machines with indexed palettes. MSpaint is made to SCRIBBLE SHIT DOWN. Seriously, people! Don't make me eat my cat here!

LMFAO... I have to agree with helm here... if you want old school check out my intial post on the what got you into pixel art? (http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=2236.50)

ladies and gentleman... i've been around the block a few times and have tried and tested many graphics packages... and I can tell you when it comes to pixelling - MSpaint was an afterthought... by all means use it - but please... be aware - it is the afterbirth of the whole windows OS - thrown in to 'have a rudimentary gfx package available' - note the emphasis here... I can tell you that the first gfx package I ever used (Melbourne draw on the spectrum) had more features than MSpaint... (well that's probably strictly not true - but it sounds funny)
Yeah I know it's free... and yeah I know it has some nominal value... but people GET WITH THE PROGRAM and evolve...! Honestly...
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on November 24, 2006, 11:57:36 am
hmmmm..... whats putting me off learning how to use promotion properly is just how... choleric its supporters seem.
Ive always found mspaint humble and simple - nothing deserving praise, nothing deserving condemnation and the only trouble that seems to come about it is from people bashing it.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 24, 2006, 12:16:40 pm
yup... that's one side effect of learning new and more advanced apps I'm afraid is that it turns you into bitter and twisted indivduals... who have no ability to look beyond their new found ways... :lol:

seriously though... as I've explained before - by all means use Mspaint... it's just that it's not the best app around for the purpose of pushing pixels efficiently... it's horses for courses of course and if you feel you get better results out of it then go ahead and use it... that fact still remains though, that sticking ones head in the sand - putting ones fingers in ones ears and going "YA YA YA YA YA YA YA YA YA YA YA - not listening" will never amount to one advancing ones skills by ignoring those that know that have gone beyond that...

I was dragged kicking and screaming from dpaint and autodesk animator cos that's all I knew at the time... but with practice and time it makes sense... i've never used MSpaint so i can't really criticise it if i'm fair... but like I said... if you enjoy it - and can get good results out of it... then power to your sword and go forward in glee... knowing that you can use a rusty old spoon to create fantastic pieces of art... but in my world, time is of the essence and rusty old spoons just don't cut the mustard... hence the use of shiny spoons to dig the condiment out of the jar...

go figure!

yes I'm choleric - but i'm choleric for a reason...

look deep into your heart... you knows it!


Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 24, 2006, 01:25:01 pm
Quote
choleric

oooh!
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 24, 2006, 01:46:39 pm
oooh!
indeed... ;)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on November 24, 2006, 01:55:28 pm
i was quite happy with that word, I hoped it didnt seem forced in lol
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on November 24, 2006, 02:14:06 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on November 24, 2006, 02:54:33 pm
No you did it right, subtle pause then blam, zinged! I felt the burn. MSPAINT KID.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Stag on January 14, 2007, 10:27:34 pm
i gave it a seven, because it's A: the most readily available computer image program to me B: pretty decent for basic stuff and C: something i have used since i was about 10.
It shouldn't matter what programs we use either, a lot of amazing artists use paint.
Slightly off topic but this thread reminded me of a time before i had paint, i had this bollocks 'game' called "paint and create", it shared a few similarities with ms paint, but the terrible 8-bit rendition of "teddy bears picnic" continuously playing in the background while i attempted to draw something would have driven any man to an early grave. Be thankful we're not using THAT anymore.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Willows on January 15, 2007, 01:36:09 am
IMO using MSPaint is like opening a beer bottle on the edge of your coffee table because you're too lazy to go out and get a bottle opener.

And using Promotion is like opening it with your teeth because you are awesome.

LIES. Promotion is like opening it with a battery-powered bottle opener because you're a slave to efficiency!

MSpaint can do most of what can be done in pixel art, it just takes absurdly long even if you DO know shortcuts. I'd give it a five, but I'm really too lazy to vote.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Rerg1 on January 15, 2007, 12:35:18 pm
I think MSPaint is good.
But thats cuz I nned to know how to use Pro Motion.
Anyone want to helo me? :X.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Larwick on January 22, 2007, 12:09:40 am
Anyone want to helo me? :X.

Hello.

Haha, couldn't help it. There are lots of threads around discussing it, have a go with the search tool.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Stwelin on January 22, 2007, 12:17:23 am
I haven't used Vista yet (thank GOD), but is there a better default paint app?

Also: i'm trying to stay booted into linux and minimalize my time spent under a microsoft OS... are there any good open source image editing programs preferable for pixel art?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: robalan on January 22, 2007, 02:03:32 am
I know several people use the GIMP for pixel art, but I'm not aware of any pixel-specific programs for Linux.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: pkmays on January 22, 2007, 02:29:29 am
I haven't used Vista yet (thank GOD), but is there a better default paint app?

No, there's only one default paint app, and that's the default. The Vista version of paint is marginally improved, but it's nothing to write home about.

Also: i'm trying to stay booted into linux and minimalize my time spent under a microsoft OS... are there any good open source image editing programs preferable for pixel art?

Linux is a terrible alternative to Windows for graphic artists. Fact of the matter is, the mass majority of any graphics software is going to be Windows only. A few will have a Mac version, even less will have a Linux version. And most software that has a Linux version usually has a Windows version that's better supported anyway.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Meta|Fox on January 22, 2007, 03:17:56 am
I use MS paint...  :hehe:








dont hurt me.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptepid on January 22, 2007, 03:32:29 am
There is mtPaint, specifically created for making pixel art under linux.
http://mtpaint.sourceforge.net/

It has some pretty nice palette features, but I found it was missing a few key tools that I use (can't remember exactly what at this point, I should give it another shot and write a proper review ;) ).

I use the GIMP, which works pretty well once you get a good layout, stick it into indexed mode and work out how to use the palette interface. It just lacks some of the nice palette features in other pixel/index specific programs (Deluxe Paint, Pro Motion, GraFX2, etc). Probably should write a plugin for it (or just fork the damn thing), but I doubt I could be arsed. :)

Anyhow, as for MS Paint... yeah, you can make pixel art with it. You can also make pixel art with NeoPaint for DOS, or a hex editor, or lego blocks. Very few paint apps are specifically designed with pixel art in mind, so if you're not going to use one of them then you might as well use something that has a decent feature set. Things like: layers, for example, or good configurable shortcuts, transparency support or any number of other things that will make your pixelling easier, none of which MS Paint has that I recall.

We pixel artists make things arbitrarily hard enough for ourselves as it is, we don't need to make it worse by having to fight to make the program do what we want. But hey, if you know how to fight MS Paint well, then use it. Do what makes you happy. :P

... that post was way too long.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: am_pm on January 22, 2007, 03:42:13 pm
I like MS Paint. I enjoy the simplicity of it.

Why use the expensive paints when you can do just fine with the shitty acylics?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Wayuki on January 22, 2007, 04:08:50 pm
It's not your program, it's how you use it.  :)

MSPaint totally sucks, but that doesn't stop you from making awesome art with it.  :lol:
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Ragnarok on January 22, 2007, 06:15:22 pm
*Ahem* Snake's "Collossal Katamari"?

Anyways, MsPaint is like using a HB pencil to shade in monochrome. It works, but is harder to make good artwork. Unless thou hast much faithfull power, thou shalt not be victorious.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on January 22, 2007, 08:15:39 pm
Unless thou hast much faithfull power, thou shalt not be victorious.

High pain threshold is what you need to work in Paint.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Stwelin on January 23, 2007, 12:21:30 am
High pain threshold is what you need to work in Paint.

Also, lot's of blood.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Willows on January 26, 2007, 09:47:30 am
Fine, you high-and-mighty Pro-motion-er. Convert me, teach me the ways of ProMotion, show me how it's vastly superior to MSpaint. Write us inferiors a tutorial, dammit!

(Seriously, I downloaded Pro Motion trial. I opened it up two hours ago, my head's still spinning. I can make heads, tails, nor the little jaggedy rim of the quarter... of it. I can do a full 3% of the things you can see happening in either your (ptoing) or helm's videos. HALP!)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Helm on January 26, 2007, 09:50:53 am
Read the manual.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: baccaman21 on January 26, 2007, 05:22:51 pm
sheesh... will this argument never end... :S

ttfn :)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Souly on January 26, 2007, 07:09:23 pm
I've never used anything but Paint for making things.
I dunno I guess it's just habit for me. D:
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: JonathanOfDrain on January 26, 2007, 07:27:05 pm
I used paint, then iDraw3 then went back to paint and then jumped to Gale. It's no pro motion but it does the job.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: MoD on January 28, 2007, 11:34:25 pm
I can't seem to break away from paint for pixelling, but recently I've been using mtPaint to tweak my palettes, and I love the amount of control and ease over my colors I have now. I've tried photoshop, graphics gale, and a few other programs but I always end up moving back to the old MSP. I would like to try promotion sometime, though, from what I've seen, it'd do everything I need for sure.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: konjak on February 21, 2007, 01:26:26 am
I pixel all my game graphics in paint, then animate the more complex animations in Graphics Gale.

I keep all the sprites in the same BMP and have my palette as a part of it that I move and copy around within the file. I love Paint because it doesn't hide it's features behind several buttons and I really don't need any layers for spriting my own stuff. All you need is colors and a pen tool.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: eck on February 21, 2007, 01:55:34 am
why havent i seen this?


let me just start this post by saying:  "i r a paint nub!!!"

yes, i use paint.  yes, im to poor to afford pormotion.  yes, im a lazy little shit, and refuse to try g gale or anything.

paint doesnt hide anything.  its streight forward, and easy to use.  it has all the nessacary features, and none of that extra crap to weigh me down.  i had the hotkeys down by the age of like 10, before i even knew that doodleing shit and bucketing it in was anything neer pixel art.  once you know all the tools, its really not all that much different then promotion (which i did force myself to learn to use).  its got a grid, its got a thumbnail, its got 10x zoom, its got color selector, text tool, line tool, and curve tool.  what more do you need?  the colors are fucked up, yes, but after a while you get used to it. 

i gave it a 3 because its got the tools i need, but it isnt fancy and after reading this thread, i feel like a retard.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Cow on February 21, 2007, 05:55:55 am
Paint hides plenty. The 4x zoom, the 10x zoom, the magical color that lets you see videos through it, the different brush sizes...

Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Xion on February 21, 2007, 06:07:39 am
the magical color that lets you see videos through it
What?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Cow on February 21, 2007, 06:21:39 am
http://mysteriouscolor.blogspot.com/2007/01/mysterious-color-that-lets-you-see.html
Took me quite a while to find it. Easily the most useless thing ever.

Along comes someone in the comments and offers a perfectly logical explanation. Where's the sense of magic? :durr:
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Xion on February 21, 2007, 06:42:56 am
Ah........okay.......?

Easily the most useless thing ever.
Agreed.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Blick on February 21, 2007, 06:47:02 am
I hate that Paint has 4x zoom, but if you have to momentarily change to another zoom level by clicking it specifically, you lose the ability to go back to 4x zoom unless you restart the program. It's annoying because I've gotten to the point that I can pixel accurately at 4x, but not at 2x and anything larger gets to be overkill. I can't even imagine what people use the 10x zoom for. Maybe they're nearly blind. Which makes it difficult to reach 10x zoom in the first place.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: The B.O.B. on February 21, 2007, 06:50:57 am
I hate that Paint has 4x zoom, but if you have to momentarily change to another zoom level by clicking it specifically, you lose the ability to go back to 4x zoom unless you restart the program. It's annoying because I've gotten to the point that I can pixel accurately at 4x, but not at 2x and anything larger gets to be overkill. I can't even imagine what people use the 10x zoom for. Maybe they're nearly blind. Which makes it difficult to reach 10x zoom in the first place.

Or you could hit Ctrl + PageDown...that automatically gives you the 4X zoom, I think. A little hot key tip for all you hot key whores, out there...
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: konjak on February 21, 2007, 07:00:13 am
OR... you zoom from the "View" toolbar option... though I only sprite at 6x and 8x.

Someone mentioned 10x which does not exist in Paint as far as I know.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: Blick on February 21, 2007, 08:48:15 am
10x zoom in paint is achieved by clicking on the magnifier then, under 8x, click the very last responsive pixel in the toolbar.
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on February 21, 2007, 08:57:04 am
(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5687/10xeh3.gif)
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: konjak on February 21, 2007, 12:31:47 pm
Why is 10x so secret?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on February 21, 2007, 12:41:41 pm
Why is MSPaint so shit?
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: .TakaM on February 21, 2007, 01:12:53 pm
lol whatta troll
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on February 21, 2007, 07:42:10 pm
At least I don't use MSPaint :P
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: The B.O.B. on February 21, 2007, 07:54:51 pm
Oye, we get it, the majority of the pixelers here hate MSPaint. Some one lock this already, befo' I start cryin'... :-*
Title: Re: MS Paint Poll
Post by: ptoing on February 21, 2007, 08:01:48 pm
Oye, we get it, the majority of the pixelers here hate MSPaint. Some one lock this already, befo' I start cryin'... :-*

Thine wish be mine command.