Pixelation
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: A2J2TIWARI on October 10, 2015, 01:06:43 pm
-
As the title says, where do you guys(Pixel Artists) find programmers to collaborate with to make your own games? What do you keep in mind while collaborating and do you guys come into contracts with each other?
Thanks much.
-
Well, I'm a programmer myself, so for me it's quite easy. I think your best bet is to find a gamedev forum and look for help there. Make sure you make some mockups before you try getting help. As a programmer, I don't like it when I'm approached by people who only have a story for example. Stories are easy to write, I want to see some quality art (aka, a full game mockup, not some random sprites and 3 pages of backstory).
-
Story writing can be as much optional decoration as it can be the most impressive element central to a kind of game -- up to the very reason to make a good game. However, even if not of greatest importance to a particular game, a good backround writing elevates it as any other contribution. It is just so that competent writing based on serious study may be even less common in games than quality pixel art. And so, an unprofessional writing given prominent role can drag the experience down just as much. You want a good craftsman in that, just like you don't want your coder doing the art -- and often you don't want the coder to even judge your art. But given the good, a writer has many ways to improve and organize the project in more than literal story telling, but a unifying point of orientation, documentation and source of inspiration to the rest of the team's doing. And if a coder just happens to have put a lot of effort into text processing tools, a nice interactive "Choose your own adventure"-style story to show that off might be just the perfect fit.
However, after all, a computer game is first and foremost a software. If that doesn't work, you got no computer game, not even a bad one. And a software has a higher risk of not working, to the most useless result. It is for that reason that I think coders should be the most experienced developer on the team, fit for the given ambition, as usually these projects stand or -- by far most likely -- fall, with them. Coders must be responsible, for the sake of their fellow member's stakes. And that also means a special weight to the coder's word, so that word should be reasonably good.
While there are surprisingly often common principles among the crafts, every craft has its own challenges or conveniences. The reusability of a good code base is a strength of programming, while I am often impressed how fellow experienced artists can give in-depth critique fixing the problems, almost in an instant of looking at about any art, no matter how big the piece. Try that on just any bigger code project, no matter who you are. No. The owner of the code needs to know first what's what, and the computer game project is limited most directly by the competence of the coder in charge. Understanding this, you should fit the ambition of the project to the ability in this most carefully. It is a meaningful experience to finish and deliver your works, not just for personal satisfaction, but there is a lot to learn in that for your craft. Take it step by step to build yourself up. There's always a lot of fun waiting to be uncovered, no matter the scope.
If you want a first taste what games development is about, how coders, designers, graphics artists, musicians, writers, think and fit together, dip into the unprofessional scenes first for free. Modding or now game jams. Game jams are good getting into things, I believe. You don't over invest yourself to questionable outcomes, yet still have an opportunity to gain something. Meet people. Expose yourself to things. Look out for opportunities, as well as limit potential losses. Many high schoolers are just waiting to prove themselves on something. If you want reliable work in greater scopes, well, that costs money. Coders value their time as any artist should. Negotiating alternative shares involves a proven track record on delivered done deals for both parties, and/or a lot of personal sympathies. But trust is of utmost importance. Trust in character, as is in ability. A person can be nice, but can you trust your future into just about any nice person? Even the nicest person can be incredibly damaging to you when trust is broken, which breaks relationships. Know what person is worth what trust, to keep you and them well.
-
TIG Source and /r/gamedevclassified on reddit might help.
-
There are lots of people who just like to think up cool ideas and stories, but lack the motivation and dedication to actually make a game. Not to mention the skills required.
Which is why this is an early warning flag when someone presents you with just an idea or writing.
If you want to get a serious coder you should show people that you can do not only art, but also game design, gui design, etc.
Drawing Mockups is a good way to show of more than just art.
-
While I understand the sentiment to a degree, I think it's fair to say, there are a lot of artists that like doing mockups, or coders doing demos, that both are just basic concept sketches, and above that give not much more than tangential "advice", but that don't fulfil on their part pulling through the requirements of a real game, which makes them not much more useful in that than a writer who is not serious about finding real ways to contribute to a game in more than random, half-baked idea dropping. If writing were so easy, maybe a lot games would suck less, being done by people foreign to the craft, who obviously have no idea what they are doing. And then I look at a lot of work done by artists or coders, and sometimes ask myself, maybe that has become a little too easy as well, the qualities in a lot are not what could or should be. Then again, I look at real world games development in industry, and from concept artists to backround writers, there are genuine professions that don't contribute to the game in the most direct way, yet are worth their money for it. I guess it depends how many specialists you can afford to have in your team.
I agree that showing flexibility is a valuable trait in smaller teams. Development rarely goes as planned, people need to be able and willing to fill critical gaps on short notice. It's not necessarily about knowing several entirely different subjects, or being the best in it, but even within a subject there is a lot of flexibility in making yourself useful in more than one way. It needs courage to assume responsibility. Who else if not you.
-
Though there might be a confusion about who all calls themselves, or is being called, "writer" these days, simply for writing something down.
But then again, it's not so rare that thought crosses my mind for a moment about some "coders" or "artists" these days.
-
Thanks a lot everyone!
I have posted ads on TiGForums, IndieDb, Unity, Kongregate and Reddit. Three programmers have shown interest in the project so far.
Great points made by everyone - I understand that nobody likes to just see an idea but little dedication towards it to see professionalism, know that they are serious about the project and the person who will be investing whatever(be it programming or art) will not go to a complete waste. I do try to create as much art as I can before asking programmers to join me and they always appreciate the effort. I used to be on BYOND all this time to create games, but now that I need to publish my game PonjiRo(https://www.facebook.com/PonjiRo) on iOS and Android markets, I need programmers who can help me with that.
RAV had mentioned 'trust' in one of his replies and that's what I want to bring up. How do you build up trust with a complete stranger? I on my part used to trust the other person completely, but just two days ago had a heart breaking experience. So what's the solution? How can you trust a stranger(artist or programmer) with all your ideas and hope that nothing will go wrong. I am meditating on the idea of having a Collaboration Agreement signed before getting into any business, starting with PonjiRo. But at the same time I wonder if it will seem as if I am taking this project way too seriously and expect a lot from it, even when there is nothing outstanding about the game.
I would like to know your opinions etc on this.
-
I read an article a while back about Wizards of the Coast that there are two kinds of designers: there's those that try to sell an idea they had and those that try to sell the idea that they're good designers. The second kind is what everybody is looking for, the first is what no one is looking for.
-
I think the other artists should be a lot more practical in their advice with coders from here on out, I don't want to be too overbearing on it. I have to say though, the problem of trust is an everlasting conundrum to life at large, because it again trades problems: The more "trustworthy" a person is in character and competence, the less available that person will be to just about anyone. It's a bit like the saying of some women about men: "Why are the good ones always taken!" Anyone out there is pretty much desperate to find the right people to be happy with and for a successful life. This scarcity may be the biggest challenge of life today in the civilized world. The more you want to be save in your bet with people, the more you have certain standards and expectations on others, the more do you have to offer yourself. Otherwise, as you are a risk, you have to take risks, in the attempt of unearthing rough talent others haven't properly recognized yet, a talent that hasn't even recognized itself, not (over)valued itself, with a good heart, that you can bind to yourself, at the cost of patience to develop this potential and relationship. Unless you start doing it all yourself. but that has many other great pains all on its own. *sigh* not helping here I guess.
-
I think the other artists should be a lot more practical in their advice with coders from here on out, I don't want to be too overbearing on it. I have to say though, the problem of trust is an everlasting conundrum to life at large, because it again trades problems: The more "trustworthy" a person is in character and competence, the less available that person will be to just about anyone. It's a bit like the saying of some women about men: "Why are the good ones always taken!" Anyone out there is pretty much desperate to find the right people to be happy with and for a successful life. This scarcity may be the biggest challenge of life today in the civilized world. The more you want to be save in your bet with people, the more you have certain standards and expectations on others, the more do you have to offer yourself. Otherwise, as you are a risk, you have to take risks, in the attempt of unearthing rough talent others haven't properly recognized yet, a talent that hasn't even recognized itself, not (over)valued itself, with a good heart, that you can bind to yourself, at the cost of patience to develop this potential and relationship. Unless you start doing it all yourself. but that has many other great pains all on its own. *sigh* not helping here I guess.
There is another problem. if you excuse me, even at the risk of slightly derailing your thread. It is the eternal shame and damnation of humankind. But sadly at the very core of how the development of life works. An ingrained psychological effect, down the abyss of the human soul, I believe called the Matheus effect. "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer." This applies to many things in many rephrased forms.
What happens with people is, that those that appear weakest and most needy, are offered help the least, while those that look strongest and self-reliant, are offered help the most, even help when not needed, because that is a person everyone loves to have a favour with, while the first -- what's in it for you? not thought consciously maybe, but that's how people tick. For this, religions have invented the concept of Karma, extending the rules to the game of life, that is even if that poor bastard can't ever return favours, fate will, at latest in afterlife. Well, the more people have the concrete problem of paying their bills and feeding their crying kids, it diminishes your patience to wait for that promise. You tend to look out more for people that could help you, than who you could still help yourself. Everyone does. it's terrible. Think you're different? tell me about it. of course you are. we all are! more or less. sometimes. what else can you say.
And so the positive presentation of yourself is important. Selling dreams. even if partly lies. and falling for that of others.
Hey, you still there? good, good. take heart now. shht, it's all gonna be fine. believe. and work. make it work. head's up! cmon.
-
Haha RAV, so poetic!
Anyways, lots of programmers replied seeing the ads and especially my art. I am very happy that people actually like the artwork. I have collaborated with one programmer. When I sent him the contract, he got uncomfortable and said it's very silly to have contract for such mini games which probably won't ever earn income. So as I had mentioned, the idea of contract was rather silly...
-
That, or the programmer was being silly. If you feel pro enough for contracts, pick coders that are pro enough to like that. Having things cleared up from start should be a relief, rather than cause for anxiety, to any person of decent attitude and intention.
That being said, honestly I'm not super keen on legal stuff myself. Maybe that means I'm super shady too, but I don't like lawyers and courts, like I don't like hospitals and doctors, nor anything reminding me of that. Terrible. Like circus clowns.
So yeah, if the project has the scope of a game jam title, that seems a bit overblown. But even so what happens if it becomes a surprise hit suddenly? The less concrete the conditions of collaboration from start, the more probable the bad blood on "success", that should rather be a reason for rejoice. And despite my irrational fears of clowns: that's my problem, not yours, I gotta learn to deal with that. it's for my own best.
Other than that, you should better define what these projects are really about for you personally. Actually trying to earn money, or building your resume? Building your resume is also a good reason, because the better and bigger that looks, the better the offers and conditions for you later. Ideally you would "snowball" in your career. For that you need to start somewhere. Usually on less than ideal conditions. Important is to get the first few titles out with your name in it, no matter what, you need to pull through. Start small, pick whoever, just start getting things under your belt. Get a bit pickier after each title. With the growing experience, you also learn better to judge people and conditions from tell tale signs before-hand, you know what you like and don't. But I'm afraid, if you're starting out, you just need to get experience, good or bad, no way to shield yourself off completely, maybe just try limit the biggest lows. Learn to move on knowing better.