Pixelation
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vakinox on February 14, 2014, 03:29:10 pm
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So first off, apologies for getting frustrated yesterday and bashing the entire community. However for me it was something I've just been bottling up ever since I've began frequenting here. Some other members responded and felt it was necessary that the issues I and the many like me are having should be properly discussed, and perhaps investigated to find a solution for.
To add perspective to the case, I've been coming here for two years as my profile will confirm. I've actually been accessing the site longer than that with an account metalmac which has been here since 2010, and have been visiting or lurking ever since. Amidst my stay I have noticed and experienced several trends which tend to give new users a sense of hopelessness or disgruntles them because of a lacking in initiative put forth by the tenured members. Most users do tend to get at least one or two responses to their [C+C]'s, but I've seen 0 replies before on threads.
What is more common is two users usually with less than 200 or so posts accumulated will add one small but useful critique to a newbie's thread, but once the newbie comes back with an update or progress on his art then the thread sinks to the second page and is abandoned. Unless you're a newbie like Beetleking22 http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=14624.msg138174#msg138174 (http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=14624.msg138174#msg138174) who already shows an impressive amount of skill, or are a well-known member, then being somebody else means your thread isn't going to last long here. Most tenured members usually don't come out unless one of those two instances appear, and very rarely do I find they waste time on newcomers for whatever reason. In fact most days posting anything feels pretty useless, especially if your someone with inadequate enough skill or adjustment to the community's technical vocabulary to attempt to gamble updating your thread and watch that work go sinking to the bottom of the forums.
I have had good unique experiences here however, they are very very rare instances. PPD is a rare exception to tenured members, and he does try occasionally to accommodate newcomers and will respond to your PMs. Which once I simply gave up posting and tried PM'ing multiple users for aid on my work, and that's when I finally met another user who gave me his e-mail and a decent amount of input on my project. And while it didn't last long, and soon turned a cold shoulder to my inquires, although it was a very helpful experience. That happened back in October of 2012. Then there was another user by the name of Facet, who gave an impressive critique which I've been admiring ever since. However the advice and edit was a bit far above my comprehension or skill level, so I know this can feel like a waste as I am disappointed in myself for not being able to accommodate what he was hoping to see. This didn't occur until June of 2013. If you notice the dates, there is a long time between farming a good response and most of the other time is spent experiencing the slow drift to the bottom.
For most community members, tenured or frequenters, tend to feel exhausted going into the time to edit other people's work and creating critiques. I believe it resembles a problem I worked out while I was having lots of bouts with depression.
Motivation = cost < rewards
If the cost of replying is more than the reward of providing a proper comment or critique, then most users have no motivation to provide such an effort. Communities like these are structured on original content, and to come here frequently and provide thoughtful and original responses can be disingenuous to the user as they do not have a proper reward system in place. The way members seem to be rewarded is by coming in contact with users who provide and submit the best and more interesting material, so they stick to commenting and helping those users rather than waste effort appealing to the others that suffer from abandonment in the process.
Even though I've had a hard time or possibly somewhat experienced negligence or some similar form of negativity here, I still find the free time to poke my head in and see what's being discussed or how others are progressing. And even occasionally I will take the gamble and submit some work in hopes it gets replies from other users.
I tried to branch out and highlight some of the more obvious problems instead of just straight copy/pasting my previous rant. Hopefully the effort and reach resonates with the community and we can properly discuss the matters, and maybe bring some possible amends or solution to the table. I'm grateful for everyone who felt the need to make the subject more open for input.
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The goal of Pixelation as I understood it, is the spirit of the mastery of skills - like Martial Arts if you want so.
Most people here who are giving proper and useful critique are the professionals. There is also always the question if critique is helpful for that particular user or for the community as a whole.
However writing a good critique with edits and examples takes time. It can easily take multiple hours for a single post. It's not really worth to put in that effort for someone who don't shows off the will of improvement.
In the end there is always the question if a person gives you the feeling to add something, that it's worth spending time on it (you could spend with working or just doing your own stuff).
You can see this just on how the post look, the writing and you can also feel it.
It's hard to teach newbies skill, if their wish isn't really to learn them on their own - that's rather the principle how schools work.
It's the job of the teachers to teach the pupils, but it's not the job of the critique-givers here to educate the newbs. People are here because they want to learn, not because they want to be educated.
Lots of newbies here just don't share the spirit of pixelation, they just want to have an edit that they don't have to do work on their own and their ambition is not to improve their skills - they are too unserious and you can also feel this.
It's impossible to give a newbie without any art understanding a hint to show what looks off without editing the piece of art.
Ambitious people who really want to improve stick around will always receive critique or a helpful sentence. Unserious people won't get the same attention.
If one don't already has a certain level with his drawing you just can't say "go an take some art classes", that would be rude. But sometimes that's really the only thing you could say.
Then there are threads which showcase multiple pieces - I mean it should be pretty obvious how pixelation works once you read to 1-2 threads which got answers and there you will see that the person who works the hardest is the opener and then there will happen some kind of group dynamic which rewards that. If the initial posting is bad because the person don't took the time to learn how the forums work, why should you put in any effort for that person?
Then there are also people who have definitely some skill, but don't give back any reward in form of critiques and just take time from the community - those people also will get a lot less attention in the following process, since they aren't helpful for the community.
The thing is that you don't only learn from your own threads - that's a really bad way of looking at things.
Every critique given could be somewhat helpful for yourself too, but that don't works if you are arrogant and just looking at your own thread.
Maybe it's not really nice, but someone who don't shares and agrees with the overall ideas of this community won't be able to become a part of it. You called the people here "modern-day DaVinci's and Picasso's" who are taking their art by far too serious - I'd call the people sticking here around for a really long time just ambitious - and everyone who is like that will get a warm welcome.
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My two cents:
Most users do tend to get at least one or two responses to their [C+C]'s, but I've seen 0 replies before on threads.
I don’t think we’re entitled anything, at all. If someone wants to help, then fine. If no one shares any advice, then too bad. One thing that 0 reply threads have in common (from my experience):
1. Embryo of something
2. Multiple creations
3. So good it’s hard to criticize
When I don’t get any replies, I spend more time trying to improve my thing. Eventually people will see you’re really trying and they’ll help you out.
, then being somebody else means your thread isn't going to last long here.
This hasn’t been my experience. I’m fairly new here and not very well known.
Creature from hell: 8 edits… 8! Plus a tutorial from Cyangmou. Extremely generous. In depth comments.
Goblin: 1 edit, many comments.
Nude portrait: 3 edits, many comments.
Slashing anim’: 3 edits, many comments.
The list goes on.
I don’t know, this is the best place to get feedback on the net for pixel art in my opinion.
I have had good unique experiences here however, they are very very rare instances. PPD is a rare exception to tenured members, and he does try occasionally to accommodate newcomers and will respond to your PMs. Which once I simply gave up posting and tried PM'ing multiple users for aid on my work, and that's when I finally met another user who gave me his e-mail and a decent amount of input on my project. And while it didn't last long, and soon turned a cold shoulder to my inquires, although it was a very helpful experience. That happened back in October of 2012. Then there was another user by the name of Facet, who gave an impressive critique which I've been admiring ever since. However the advice and edit was a bit far above my comprehension or skill level, so I know this can feel like a waste as I am disappointed in myself for not being able to accommodate what he was hoping to see. This didn't occur until June of 2013. If you notice the dates, there is a long time between farming a good response and most of the other time is spent experiencing the slow drift to the bottom.
I think you might (might) be taking things for granted. People don’t have to help you if they don’t feel like it. Also, they can stop doing so whenever they want to. PPD is very generous with his time and talent (exceptionally so).
Keep in mind that giving useful critique is limited to not that many members. You need to know what you’re talking about if you’re going to give feedback which isn’t: it looks great!
It really is a good community. I hope you’ll see things differently one day.
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Having essentially grown up with this forum (I was part of the original forum, and was ecstatic when I found it again in '05) I can see where you're coming from. There is definitely more attention paid to certain topics than others; however, I'm not sure if this forum is meant to be a place for long-term mentorship, and there certainly is never any guarantee that you'll get the critique or attention you hope for. Maybe I'm just used to the environment. Most of my experience with posts is about the same as yours. Sometimes I'll get a few comments, sometimes nothing.
I'd argue that most of the forum is people that are just a couple years into pixelation. People tend to come in swinging and slowly taper off, contributing less and less to the overall content of the forum. Eventually they'll either lose touch or become lurkers like me. I notice just a handful of really big posters who have a few new critiques every day, but these people come and go, making mini eras as they do. I think the main reason for this is because of the general vibe of the forum. It's a place to go when you're stuck mostly. Can't get that leg to look right? Post it. Can't get the tusks to look menacing enough? Post it. People will usually be able to help with those things, but as the issues become more general, it gets harder to post valuable critique.
I see a lot of "help me improve this [whatever]!" posts, and people will try to help the best they can, saying how the leg is a little too small or the tusk isn't pointy enough, but this forum is usually only useful for adjusting yourself. It's less a classroom and more a resource. People will tell you what looks wrong and how to fix it, then let you fix it. If you can't fix it, it's probably a something that just needs more practice. You practice, fix it, and post another thing in a week or month or year. Repeat this process, and that's Pixelation to me. This is also why I see the threads with minimal replies not as a problem. Sure, it feels crappy if you put in your time and make a fabulous new update to your art only to have it sink to the bottom of the page, but I think that's just because there really isn't much more to be said about the piece. It's mostly finished, and there really aren't many flaws that can be adjusted any more.
There are sometimes some really cool pieces that get posted, and there's huge progress and pages of critique, but those are generally weeks and sometimes months old where the artist has made major fundamental changes to the base art. Most of the motivation to post comes from the change in the art. When there are limitations in skill, there isn't much change between the piece at the beginning of the thread, and the subsequent updates, to the end. Sometimes there are posts with pages of critique and virtually no progress. It doesn't happen terribly often, but they feel just as lonely as a post with no replies.
As a forum, I think it's impossible to make people stick around and work with one artist, or make sure there is a reply to every thread. This is an open forum, so what you get out of it isn't necessarily what you put into it, but the longer you stay, the closer those lines will become.
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I'm enjoying the personal attacks already.
personal attacks
Huh? :huh:
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In the end you want to get critique from the experienced people here.
At the other hand you call them ambitious-jerks.
Not answering here isn't the same as discriminating something, there might just be no interest, showing up those things isn't meant in a bad way. And yes some topics are easier to answer to than others. At the end the easiest and most interesting topic gets an answer. That principle is called concurrence.
The reasons I said are valid and facts. You although insulted me personally.
Just one more question?
How much useful critique have you received and how much have you given out? How many posts have you made.
I think that's quite one-sided.
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Why so angry? ???
Just speaking for myself. When I see something I feel I'm A: able to provide useful critique on, and B: Have the time and energy to write something up for with edits and all, then I'll post. If not, I'll lurk. I help within the limit of my skills and the time I have to spare. Same as for a lot of people around here no doubt. What's wrong with that?
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Cyangmou, that was catty. If you don't like what he's saying or implying please understand that beyond ego and personal attacks he is experiencing neglect which you have the privilege of never experiencing here. Regardless of the temporary insults or hurt feelings, if we can prevent future members from lashing out in the same way then we'll have done something good. Turn the other cheek, it's the internet.
It's true that nobody is owed anything here. To be skilled and not pass it on doesn't and won't ever make one feel guilty if they don't critique. When I critique it's because I want to, I don't owe anyone anything. However giving critique will make people more inclined to help you, if you are stuck giving critique can help you learn new things, take a stab at a piece beyond your skill level. It's common courtesy, if PPD posted a piece for critique I'm sure you understand you would jump to help him in any way you can, as would all the others he's helped. Take that view on it, and maybe it will add a more positive dimension to why tenured members receive more attention.
So it's true what you said, Vakinox, there needs to be incentive to help new members.
Personally when I was new I gave constant critique and edits to everyone, but over time and as I got busier I don't have the time to be as active and I've reiterated the same advice over and over that I prefer to do edits and crits when I know the person has been dedicated to their work and will make good use of my crit. I just don't want to waste my time. And that sounds terrible, right? But it's how I feel most helpful. I've seen too many people just leave good crits to waste, and I'm sure everyone else has as well.
I have made two threads asking for critique since 2008. The rest of my posts have mostly been critique. I found more value in learning by helping others, but now that I have learned enough to not be so curious about the fundamentals, I don't necessarily feel like reiterating all the points I was trying to understand at the time. I never did it for anyone other than myself, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I just want to understand more, and helping others is a good way to do that.
I did have the personal experience of helping a younger member once who was refusing all common sense and help, and taking it out on me, who eventually came around and improved and became a productive member. I think his name was DDawg. Regardless, the effort I put in was worth it, I met him by chance years later in TF2 and he apologized for being young and stubborn. I'm not entirely cynical when it comes to helping people, but I will admit I no longer have the time or energy for that amount of personal tutoring. I'd rather invest it in the community in general and help more people less directly. So on to the next point.
I'd ask you to change your opinion on the intellectualism and terminology concerning pixel art being a bad thing. Spend some time in the ramblethreads that are in the general forum and you will understand that we're just trying to learn the craft better. Maybe we are failing on dispersing the knowledge we've accumulated. Vakinox, do you think you and others would benefit from an introduction thread that introduces new pixel art techniques and terms gradually? I think that might be a good thing and one that has been overlooked. Just to condense the knowledge we have gained from discussion which you and other, newer members, were not present for. Like I said above, I would rather put together tutorials and resources than help directly these days as the return will be greater. Condensing the ramblethreads and keeping you and others up to speed and making you feel included rather than accusing us of elitism.
So I want a few things from you, Vakinox:
-A list of topics you think would help people like yourself. Do you not understand clusters or banding? Do we need to have a more visible linkage thread to tutorials or make our own based on our local terminology?
-How do we reward people for helping the little guy? First thought is a common suggestion, a thank system. When I was drawing up ideas for a critique based imageboard a while ago I had the idea of tiers. It rewarded high level members for critiquing low level ones, because the weight of a lower level member thanking a higher level one was greater than say, two people with high crit scores critting each other. The motivation for critting the high level members is already there. We just need low level members to be yummy targets for good crits. If we could get a "Thank you for this post" feature implemented, would you feel like more people would be willing to help you and other newbies?
-Take to heart that the thread you keep mentioning where a Xedrai was "ostracized" for his style consisted of one post by cyanmgou that could be taken as offensive but was really intended to help. A stream of other members leapt to defend the personal choices Xedrai made, and then he confirmed himself it was for a solid reason that he wouldn't change and everyone was happy. Nobody ignored the thread. The forums are not as active as they once were and it's common for a thread to go close to a week without critique if nothing is glaring. Xedrai kept bumping it with new work and that's just how I see the forums operating when we don't have as much manpower as we used to. Take a look at the activity data in the stats and I think what's happening in 2014 is amazing for how much less active things are. We're all doing our best and I feel very glad to be a part of the continued effort here to keep critique and learning alive concerning these often ignored and generalized media.
Please be patient and do not give in to personal attacks, on both sides of the aisle. We want to make the forums more hospitable. I know things are a little touchy right now, so I apologize in advance if anything I directed at you came across as insulting. I swear I intend no offense.
I just read your most recent post as I previewed this one, Vakinox. I understand you're frustrated but I'd prefer if we ignored our egos for a bit and proposed some actual changes to the structure of things rather than ramming our heads against each other's. We have different experiences, let's cater towards each other's needs and perspectives to make pixelation better.
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@ErekT: Not angry, just a little confused about the premise. Originally this thread was created under the requests of PDD and Atnas, two of the original people who wanted to open the issue to the community and discuss the topic so I'm going to leave it for them two to continue the thread any further if they like. Instead, the thread turned into a personal attack on me (pointed out by the previous comment) and how people like me are just irrelevant to the interest of the community. From what it seems to be this thread was requested for a community lynching and me to sit here in my free time to tirelessly explain and justify why some things are issues within the community. I've explained my position on the subject and the possible source of the issue, but that's irrelevant to the thread and community's interest.
You're free to do whatever you wish to do. My criticism isn't with you, and it has never been, but of the structure of the site and the community standards.
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you said it yourself the "cost" of making a critique is more than the "reward".
Dude, people sometimes dont want to make comments on your posts and you dont get what you want. pixelation has a decreasing amount of activity, so there's less and less people to make useful critiques.
Do people tend to comment on art they like or on something done by someone who they trust and have a good relationship with? I would think so! that would guarantee the "reward" of drawing over something you like, or that you know how the person will respond if there's already an established relationship. How is any of this an injustice to you, personally? it's a shame that people werent responsive to your edits, but you cant count on the forum to do that! you can hope but if you want to be sure that will happen develop a relationship with someone whose oppinion you respect.
Nobody "decieved" you. just think about this, pixelation never said ok, so go and start a game project because we're gonna be there backing you up every step of the way, dont worry. You made that expectation for yourself, there is no specific group of people that makes up pixelation, so it cannot promise you anything. I used to think of pixelation like that at a time, and I got disappointed too (in a different way). I realized any comunity is nebulous and if you want it to change you have to go in and make activities and give it your all to transform it into something different, but if you're not doing that then you've got to realize it's just a place where people hang out and act like people, nobody owes you to realize your vision of what pixelation is.
We would like for pixelation to be the most open and the most helpful place possible, but this is not a job for anybody, this is a hobby thing we do when we feel like it, and yes sometimes we feel like replying to some stuff and sometimes we dont. Also, be aware this "we" is not a top pixeling squad of 10 specific members that I have in my mind, this we I'm using and the experienced people you're adressing is a nebulous group of people that are nostalgic about the pixel medium and about the C&C ethos of this place, and has not been the same over the years, so the overall taste changes with time.
just take what you can and become friends with someone you respect, maybe not the guy who seems like an uber pixel god to you, but just someone dedicated and good at what he does, like you. you can help eachother out and maybe someday you'll come back and be nostalgic about this place with that guy.
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I myself am anything but the model p. artist, I give c+c intermittently, and when I do post a picture on here I tend to lose motivation on it shortly after.
However, I find that there is a certain level required by me to really give c+c. There is a point where all you can really think to say is, "I think you need to study the real world more". However, if one was to post that I feel like they would receive much greater backlash then what I tend to do, which is not reply at all.
There is also a point that is different for each person where they feel that, hey, this is something I could help something with, and have fun while doing it. This point depends on the piece's subject matter, its "edit-ability", and how well the person receives critique. There are a few people on site that I feel like I can give good c+c to them and have fun while doing it, and I sometimes spend a bit more time on their topics then others. I know that inst exactly moral but, hey, being a pixel art critique is not my job, I have other things to do in my life, I might as well enjoy helping someone.
Also I'd hardly say those were personal attacks ;D. They were probably just giving criticism, this forums greatest desire.
Also I didn't read everything written here, so everything I said is probably just repeating someone else or something :lala:
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I can understand both sides of this to be honest! Ive been trying to be active lately and help where i think i can but you cant reply to everything, whether because of time or not feeling you have the specific skills or experience with a certain style etc to remedy a problem. but a lot of threads dont get much attention which can be off-putting to the poster and potential posters i guess. My last CnC thread didnt get much in the way of replies, but i did get one that was rather useful regarding the construction a few weeks later. I didnt (dont) take the lack of interest personally at all, and im grateful for what replies i did get, but its only human to wonder why its not getting any replies.
maybe if the strictness surrounding one-liners were relaxed, conversations might grow more naturally within a thread? just a thought.
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Might just be a matter of doing some self-introspection going and understanding why exactly are you getting negative reactions over failed expectations. I think the problem lies in yourself, not the community.
When the future, and the expected feedback you would like to receive take more prominence than the art itself, it might be a good time to consider why in blazes are you even spending the time in it.
Go turn it the other way around, I suggest. Have the art itself take the mayor role. If you do this, then things like persistence and perseverance will come to you naturally, since it's a shift in focus. I myself spent years, ever since 2006 or so, posting shitty art and being ignored; but it never was a negative experience since I didn't concern myself over expectations. On the polar opposite, I was thankful for any tidbit of time people invested in me, and my own motivation regardless of circumstances took me through.
If you are incapable of changing yourself to value more the art itself over the attention it can get you, then you could at least change yourself to be thankful for the critique you get every now and then. Notice how everything has to do with yourself.
The difference between being thankful and having expectations can be reduced to lines of code. Imagine you're this robot, and some external stimuli is perceived by your senses:
[Acquired: Critique]
You can either:
[Reaction: Positive, thankful, critique gained. It's a gain.]
[Reaction: Negative, not what was -expected-, for whatever reason.]
The reason having expectations in this world, in all fields, is so seemingly a pointless and nonsensical idea, is because it's literally -never- under control, and never will be. Especially considering the nature of sites like these, where everyone is free to do what he or she wants, based on whatever the hell they want at any particular time.
So yeah. Know thyself, take action upon it if you wish, or whine. Whatever you find most exciting. ;)
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Mathias's tips for success:
1. Be kind. We're all here for similar reasons.
2. Less typing in forums.
3. More pixels and paintings.
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There's also this tidbit that says that, when you are giving critique, in many ways you are also helping yourself by providing your artistic hand with unique/interesting situations to solve, as crafted by other minds, on different perspectives. It's nothing other than a win-win, if I may say so myself.
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I'll say that it has been my experience that over the years I lost the will to write up exhaustive 'hi! here's how you pixel (the basics)' critique posts and I did choose generally "easy" pieces to help with or edit. A big incentive in me critiquing from one point and onwards was that I saw something that could easily be helped to achieve a higher level (sometimes higher than mine) and I wanted to give the tools to the artist to take it that 5% further. I was just vicariously gratifying -- perhaps not even vicariously, I was really helping myself through others. Pixelation was, and is, a source of inspiration for me.
It really is very difficult to be active for years and years on Pixelation and to keep writing the same, basic post that is most helpful and encouraging for beginning artists. It might be hugely inspiring to that beginner that gets the royal treatment, but it's not inspiring to me.
So you're not crazy, and I understand why you're disappointed if you thought Pixelation is where people who have been active for 10 years or more and/or professional would be guaranteed to help beginners. I am not sure if Pixelation sold that bill of goods to you, but I understand that you're disappointed regardless. As this isn't a paid service or a school, it's necessary to realize that *beginners will have to help beginners*. That's how it was when I came to this forum too and I was 15 years old or something. People come and go, here. They return at a different point in their lives with new skills to share, there's no point to obsess over the social dynamic aspect of it.
I do agree it's a failing of Pixelation for any thread from a beginner to have zero replies. I am not sure how it can be fixed (and I am no longer an active moderator), however - and I hope you take my comment in good faith - it seems to me your struggle with depression is colouring how hopeless you see all this being. I am not trying to Other you, I know how depression is.
In the end, what do you do when you have a thread with zero replies? You post a new thread, for a new piece of art that you sincerily tried to do your best on. Silence is a type of feedback in itself. That's what you can do from your end. Pixelation will have to try to meet your request halfway from the other end, hopefully.
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I do agree it's a failing of Pixelation for any thread from a beginner to have zero replies. I am not sure how it can be fixed (and I am no longer an active moderator), [...]
Well, I've had this idea in the back of my head to highlight threads that have 0 or not many replies, and highlight them more as they get even older. I don't want to fiddle with SMF, though, so this has to wait until it has been replaced.
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A purely linear forum listing isn't the best for what we're seeking to do, it's true. Whenever the change to the custom system happens in the coming years it would be interesting to have threads with no replies get bumped by the forum software based on say, OP's last login date. Chronological sorting is good for default display but I wouldn't mind clicking a custom sort button that lumps threads from the past 2 weeks in need of attention to the top. Attention could be based on OP's activity level, so the more active you are on the forum in addition to how unpopular your thread is could be an interesting mix to shed light on threads where OP will see and use the crit and jumpstart a thread that hasn't taken off due to lack of inital community interest.
I am really personally interested in a system like this, also with a weighted thanks system that rewards people for being thanked by people in need of attention.
I think because the thanks come from the user in need of help in the first place it won't be possible to point farm.
Vakinox said in a PM that he would return to the thread and answer my questions as to how we can improve conditions for the disaffected, when he gets the time.
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I totally agree with making low activity threads more visible. I tried to go through the pixel forum the other day like this after reading Vakinox's rant as I thought he had made a good point (which is how I came upon his thread actually, I hadn't seen it before then.) It was quite difficult.
I don't post a whole lot these days but I agree with the views of others in this thread. Repeating yourself on ground level critiques does get a bit old, especially seeing the members receiving those critiques disappear without a trace. I also personally feel a bit useless giving those critiques, I guess after being part of the community for so long it seems like those things should be self evident or something. Obviously that's a failing on my own part so I'll try my best to give out more low level critique because I do remember how inspiring that could be.
Although I've never been particularly active just reading the critiques given to other members here and seeing all of the work that has been done has improved me more as an artist than any individual critiques I may have given over the years. I think it does take a long time to learn this though and more effort could definitely be put in to keep new users around.
Also try making yourself an avatar, I know in my case it helps immensely to remember people. :)
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We have shortcuts like : RULES : (without spaces) which is a shortcut link to the rules thread.
Perhaps to get around ignoring members who need low level critique we can make a set of locked threads that cover basic mistakes and teach proper solutions such as :PILLOWSHADING: :BANDING: :ANTIALIASING: :CLUSTERS: :HUESHIFTING: etc.
If we had these emote links a member could just say "You are using :PILLOWSHADING: on the beetle's shell" and from there the OP would have a link to a detailed article and return with an edit addressing that concern.
It's a blunt force solution to a problem we aren't doing anything about, I don't see how it could hurt aside from people abusing these links and neglecting to give original critique. That's better than nothing, though.
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I think something like that would be helpful. I also think that some solid tutorials and examples of rpg view sprites and assets in common resolutions would be good. That has to cover what seems like 50% of what new users are posting. Perhaps the possibly impending thanks system could have seperate tags for threads of that nature and be pooled into one thread of great rpg examples
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When considering whether to reply to a post/give critique, I usually don't because 1. I don't want to give advice I'm not sure about myself 2. There's a lot to say and it's exhausting to sugarcoat my post so I don't hurt the person's feelings, 3. It's difficult to advise on lessons I've internalized so much I don't realize it's not common knowledge.
I don't know if this applies to anyone else.
Regarding the basic tips/tutorials people are talking about -
I keep thinking about that wiki-thing someone brought up. It's probably not the right way to do things (for numerous reasons already outlined in a few threads) but I do like the "wiki-walk" behaviour that happens when you have articles linking to other articles to other articles... It's fun just reading about stuff only tangentially related to the original thing. I don't know, maybe something like that could be useful to help people with basic concepts.
I'd rather have a glossary/dictionary of basic terms people can go over, those can teach a lot already.
For example
"Pillowshading -picture-
See: banding
The practice of adding layers of shading that closely follow the outlines of the form.
This often creates -banding- as different streaks of shading start lining up.
It is named that because it is thought to give the object a soft and undefined form, akin to a pillow."
It'd have to be very carefully worded so it doesn't direct the reader to feel like there is just one way to do things or something.
Though the general lesson of "in art, break the rules after you've learned them" should be taught to everyone.
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I think that's a great idea Atnas. Might be an idea to start some threads and sort of group write the tutorials, get everyone's input on the subject and try to synthesise a community opinion on them. Whether it's that or individual tutorials I'd definitely like to help out.
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Perhaps to get around ignoring members who need low level critique we can make a set of locked threads that cover basic mistakes and teach proper solutions such as :PILLOWSHADING: :BANDING: :ANTIALIASING: :CLUSTERS: :HUESHIFTING: etc.
Along with this, I feel like we should have more threads/focus on basic art principles. I feel like a lot of beginner's downfalls are caused by things like lighting or wrong proportions. I don't want the forum to transform into one based on hand-drawing, but I think threads/links with information on how to draw people, color theory, or other principles of art could help beginners so much and is what I've tried to focus on recently. I think the daily sketch is a great step forward in this and I intend to start posting stuff if I get a chance to sketch something decent.
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Great thread! I haven't contributed much to Pixelation in the past, so I fall neatly into the category of "nobodies", for what it's worth. But I'll share my thoughts all the same, because I'm arrogant like that.
- A thread like this can easily devolve into trying to "guilt" other people into contributing more, instead of - more effectively - giving knowledgeable members the passion and motivation needed to help others. So I applaud the mods trying to be constructive and look for specific solutions.
- If we're going to draw parallels to martial arts or sports in general, then I would mention at least one important parallel: Forcing the most elite instructors to work with beginners isn't ideal. Very often, it's a waste of resources. Some instructors do enjoy teaching regardless of the skill level, but that comes down to personal interaction. On a forum like this, the personal interaction is often close to zero. You're swapping images, making short comments. So for many people, working with beginners via the internet is not stimulating on an artistic, intellectual or personal level. Even in sports, you rarely see former olympic medalists and world champions working with people just off the street.
I'm not say experts should be discouraged from teaching beginners. On the contrary. I'm just saying that, in any kind of sports community, the absolute most important factor is whether the core group of top athletes and instructors feel like they're growing, learning and having fun. If they don't, they burn out.
- Ever since I got back into pixel art last year, I've been dying to make more tutorials, because I want to contribute to the pixel art community (both here and on Pixeljoint) and it just kills my motivation to make the same comments over and over. It's just unnecessary. But I haven't actually made any tutorials, because I don't really feel skilled enough yet. That being said, I would be thrilled to assist with this, because I feel that a number of solid tutorials aimed at beginners would help the community a lot. And not just pixel art beginners, but people who are new to art in general. Because let's face it, a lot of people perceive pixel art as a shortcut to making great art.
- I very much agree with Cyangmou that it's important to measure the motivation and willpower of other people before spending hours trying to help them. Even with my modest skill level, I have spent quite a lot of time trying to help others with edits (nothing compared to you guys, but still) , and it's depressing to look over all those images (I save them all on my computer) and see how few of those people are still around.
To quote Confucius: "The Master said, “I will not enlighten a heart that is not already struggling to understand, nor will I provide the proper words to a tongue that is not already struggling to speak. If I hold up one corner of a problem and the student cannot come back to me with the other three, I will not attempt to instruct him again.” Analects 7.8 (Not my favorite translation, but there you go)
Now, that's a bit harsh, but the more tutorials are available, the more one can expect from new community members.
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A lot has already been said.
Many good ideas have been suggested.
Some to improve the forum interface, some the community, some perception.
The feature ideas are good.
But they will obviously take time to implement.
Pixelation works well because people give crits naturally.
They want to give them, therefore they take the time to make them good.
As a community we can try a little harder to help new users more often.
But anyone who does not enjoy doing that should not and will not force themselves.
As others have stated, there just cannot be any promise that each thread will get equal attention.
Perception is the only thing you have control of.
I recommend you go back to some of the posts that you think are really negative and targeted at you, and realize why they are actually useful pieces of advice and not very targeted either.
I paid for an art education.
And it was nothing close to perfect.
Saw students cry in the hallways.
Students get red in the face and run out of classrooms.
Teachers told us we sucked to our faces.
That we were wrong.
That we didn't understand.
That our ideas were bad.
We were told to get the fuck out of the classroom if we could not put in serious effort.
Students dropped out of school and went elsewhere because they couldn't take pressure.
Or they just didn't enjoy the process.
Numerous teachers were fired based on student reviews.
New teachers came and went every semester for other jobs.
You had to fight for 1 on 1 time with a teacher.
If you didn't book early their schedule would be all filled up except for 5-10 mins.
Students formed groups or went solo.
Some got along.
Some hated each other.
Some would step on you to get ahead, to get a job, and never look back.
Some would gladly help you with whatever, whenever.
Even in a school, a place of education, people are still people.
And they will do what they do in any environment.
A community may have a similar set of goals, but a community is not a unity.
It is a dynamic band of unique individuals.
All of us here have an interest in pixel art.
But we are all very different, in experience, in thought, in taste, in style, etc.
Conflict is a normal part of social interaction.
Art is often social.
Games are often social.
This community is social.
As such there will be conflict.
Learning to deal with it is important.
You will never find a naturally perfect learning experience built for just you.
It takes a lot of effort on your part to figure out how you learn best, and it is your job to tune your perception and environment to accommodate that.
You are going about the wrong way of getting what you want.
So you need to adjust how you go about attaining your art goals.
A positive interaction will always get you further than a negative interaction.
People will generally give you back whatever energy you direct at them.
You don't have to lie or sugar coat.
Just choose your words to be productive, even if you are frustrated.
Be clear and communicate.
Be humble.
Not knowing, being stuck, wanting help, not ending up with what you expect, all lead to frustration.
But these things also lead to learning.
You can be frustrated and redirect that energy into a question.
One of the bigger mistakes that I've seen people do when accepting crit here:
They just say "Oh thanks that's amazing! I'll go do something like that!" and then end the thread.
Come back with thoughts, come back with questions, come back with drawings.
Usually when given the time, I am quite thorough in what I write and draw.
But when I need to gain time, I do an edit, and I keep my text very brief.
The edit I provide may have many underlying techniques and thoughts that go unspoken.
I will not always return to a thread to completely flesh out my thoughts unless asked to do so.
There's no discrimination.
I just forget and move on to other things.
As far as what others say about writing a large crit for a new user and then that user never returning, it's true, it happens.
Here's an old example from my past posts.
http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=13844.msg131268#msg131268
This took me about 3-6 hours to type up.
Livsgladje's never posted again.
And his last login time: November 18, 2012, 10:37:35 am.
I answered his question to the best of my ability.
Was it overkill?
Not useful?
Incorrect?
Were my examples bad?
Did I misinterpret his question?
Or did it solve his question?
Perhaps he had no need to come back because he had the exact answer he needed?
We can never know.
And it's not important.
I had the time to write the post.
And I'm glad I did.
It helped me to put it into words.
And I hope that it helped others as well.
However not every post I write can be this detailed.
A single blanket post to a new user can be very useful.
But it can also go unused by the person it is written for.
It is hard to judge that random chance.
Some days I am happy to do it.
Others I am not.
And maybe you are already doing the right things in your thread.
Great.
Then persevere.
Be productive.
Ask for help.
Be patient.
I'd say it takes about 200+ posts here to really hit your stride.
That takes time.
I have 400 posts.
And I've been registered 4 years.
No one here has implied or said directly that you should go away.
You say you want to be a part of this community.
Then do so.
Read more.
Post more.
Draw more.
Crit more.
so I double posted which is when PDD stepped in to correct me and apologized for a lack of hits on the topic.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I have a terrible memory and I don't keep all my pms.
But I think you are saying that I pmed you saying not to double post?
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In my experience on another site which I've written a somewhat in depth tutorial for pixel art, even if you have numerous tutorials or blanket critiques that one would hope all the less skilled pixelers would read and understand, you will still always have to say the most basic critique over and over again. Whether this is because they don't feel like reading all that and don't have that great an interest in pixelling yet, or if they just don't understand how it relates to their own artwork, you will always have to say "more contrast, less colors," etc. However, while the repetition of these basic level critiques will always be necessary, I have noticed that as time goes on people that I have given in depth critiques and edits on understand a lot more, obviously, and they start giving out the basic critiques that I once said to them, referencing me.
So basically, I'd say that as the newer pixellers get critique, while the older members of this site may still perceive them as new, they perceive themselves as a sort of middle "age" that has more enthusiasm and time in some cases then professional pixellers. So should their critique be disregarded and the critique of the professionals be the only thing that one can yearn for. In essence most critique will always be just repeating something you heard years ago or whatever, so why should it matter if Helm or I say it.
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This is seriously fucked up.
You're totally ignoring what's happening on our side, "the helping, pretentious, arrogant artists"
As an experienced artist, I came here as a newcomer and I helped A LOT. And I didn't ask for help even once.
I just looked at my history and checked how useful my edits were :
Totally ignored animation
(http://i.imgur.com/cXkoi.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/Gx5PH.gif)
Totally ignored edit
(http://i.imgur.com/ZilkJod.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/nOZkI1c.gif)
Useless
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg93/micintexp/Pixel_Art%20Training/256_256_zps08f67543.jpg) > (http://i.imgur.com/irPIC3H.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/9bJoJ.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/utfgj.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/3v4Tw.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Sgzmd.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/x3jPwRx.gif) (http://i.imgur.com/OBlwnxF.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Z7KeQqp.png)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/EUsZ0.gif)
Useless
(http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7483/avataranimsclothing.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/lOcZs.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/rdutn.gif)
Totally ignored
(http://i.imgur.com/060ce.gif)
Useless
(http://s23.postimg.org/91zur570b/Wadsworth_zane.png)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/dcSdT.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/oc7Ep.gif)
Ignored
(http://i.imgur.com/QY1E1.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/AftNoGZ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/qjOlVO6.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/9ewRBRt.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/72x5IC1.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/eQsB05C.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/4Xg35xP.png)
Useless (was answered "ok thanks")
(http://i.imgur.com/sFZWION.gif)
Useless
(http://i.imgur.com/8P4nFAo.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/tln90WL.gif)
Not very useful
(http://i.imgur.com/TLlkY.png)(http://i.imgur.com/DC4mr.gif)(http://i.imgur.com/5F6mK.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/WOmlZ.gif)
Do I really need to continue ?
The truth is, when I spent hours helping people, more often than not, I didn't feel my edits were understood, studied, or even appreciated.
80% of the time, my edits or advices are ignored (no rework after them, or just a "oh it's not what I was going for, kthxbye")
15% of the time, I get no answer.
5% of the time, I see someone happy to study my work and who puts some serious efforts to learn from it.
It's really disappointing. As a "teacher", when you give a lot of care, of time, thoughts and efforts to organize your hard-earned knowledge into easy to understand chunks, ultimately you want your "students" to put the same amount of efforts on their side. You want to see them study from you, take the best of your edits, and rework seriously their art because you made them think again about their flaws. I would have loved to have someone like me teach me some basics younger. But I learnt the hard way. Alone.
You're complaining about us, but you have to understand that most of the time, we don't see our work taken very seriously. Some people just repaint 20 pixels in 5 minutes and post it as if it was done, as if they understood. This is terribly saddening. This why I slowly abandon the forum, the threads and I don't really help anymore, because I feel like 90% of the time, even when I could provide spot-on insights, the time I will spend is not worth it because it probably won't be used properly.
So I prefer to help promising, passionate, willing people, instead of a random newbie that made something in 10 minutes and that need "help". We can't help people who don't work seriously. That's the point. At least, even if overall, I'm sad my help wasn't that helpful, I had the pleasure to receive some warm mails & lovely private messages that show appreciation.
Now you know how it feels to be on our side. And now you stop complaning about the free help you may or may not receive. We are the only judge of how our time is best spent. It's your responsibility to show how serious you are, and that you are worth our time and our help. And your pissed attitude is definitely not the one I'd like to see, especially when I see your laconic answers to people who helped you in your post history.
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Firstly, the animation you posted in my thread was most definitely not ignored. I apologize if I didn't properly thank you for your time on that one;( so, thanks!!) sometimes, especially with a project thread like that, artists ( me) shift focus with intention of coming back to that subject matter at a later point.
Also, I remember seeing and internalizing all of these great edits. Unfortunately, they may not get through to the original creator, but they are all great sources of information for the rest of the community.
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Tim I've seen your edits and have been astounded by them; so if some of the people you're trying to help fail or refuse to comprehend, know at least others who are willing to learn can browse through and gain from them.
I've recently gotten back into this community and adore it; it's my favorite site as of now. But I am definitely lacking in the community department. I rarely ever critique anything unless it's something that I passionately feel needs correction. And even then it's only when the solution is an easy fix. I don't like to be the guy whom demands that someone redo all their work. I especially dislike coming off as a know-it-all when I'm not. I have tried to critique just to keep dialogue going with minor thoughts and I'm going to try harder to keep that up. P-Driver said, "As a community we can try a little harder to help new users more often." But it's really hard for me to criticize even constructively for some reason.. I feel a tremendous shyness in that.
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You're complaining about us
@tim I'm complaining only about certain community members and the way the forums work overall. If you feel insulted by my remarks, it is only because you have a perception or idea that aligns with the certain members I'm criticizing or you've done something to harm, segregate, and snub users whom have disadvantages using the site. What this discussion is for isn't for complaining about you or free help, it's for finding possible solutions for the admitted flaws and important parts of the site so that everyone's experience can be improved.
you said it yourself the "cost" of making a critique is more than the "reward". -Conceit
I'm not ignoring what's happening on the community's side either as shown by Conceit's reply, I'm currently attempting to discuss through PMs with other members on solutions we can create to also prevent the professional users who do contribute unique and exceptional content and critiques from having their time wasted. Also as Ryumaru points out, there is two side to every story. We currently should be having a discussion to figure out how we can help users like yourself feel motivated to contribute more of these beautiful pieces of advice and alterations in a way so that you will feel rewarded with the time and content you have put into the site.
And apologies for the communication breakdown.
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Tim, I remember seeing a lot of those and learning from them. Take what you will from that.
Vakinox I know people have said accusatory things towards you but I don't think insinuating Tim has done anything wrong is helping. He just gave a long list of examples where he feels insulted because he gave it of his free time and he sees people wanting more than he's already given, that's all.
@PPD That was a good post, thanks for that. It summarizes the community very well.
It seems like we've pinpointed some weak areas of the forum, lets stop pointing fingers at members and look at where the infrastructure can be improved.
-----------------------------------------------
I have been looking into using smf logins for a wiki and a lot of forums do it. I think that a wiki would be better structured for collaboration on various pixel art etc topics than a series of threads, this will be a much more natural way to organize all the information we've accumulated.
So to summarize things thus far, these are some of the features which have been brought up:
-Thanks system to reward good critique. Perhaps every month the top thanked member gets a shoutout or is featured in some way.
-New sort option to bring ignored threads with active OP's to the top.
-Tag system, cus good threads never stop being relevant.
-Wiki database of knowledge, with easy shortcuts to make disseminating core lessons easier, encouraging newbies aren't ignored.
Like PPD said, this is going to take time. Some of these can be implemented soon, like tagging and thanking, others will take much longer, like custom sort an wiki. The community is healthy and sturdy as it is, so I hope these do nothing but help it grow and become a better place.
In the far future we might like to archive specific posts that are good general critique in and of themselves. Whether this comes from an extension of the profile showing most thanked posts or simply having clickable cookies leading to the posts that have earned them that cookie, time will tell. Currently there is a lot on the to do list and we only have so many people capable of implementing stuff like this. Features are the only way I know how to shape the community in a positive direction and encourage user retention.
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Giving critique and making edits of other people's art is challenging, but rewarding likewise. Not getting a direct response or seeing an obvious effect stemming from your critique does not mean that time has been wasted!
Teaching is a skill, and like drawing, it can be improved and refined through practice. And this improvement, I believe, is a good thing in and of itself. Wether you agree with me on that belief or not, you have to know that your performance of this skill (of teaching) has an impact on wether or not your critique is taken to heart by the reciever.
Patience is also a skill.
Being a good teacher is not only dependant on you being able to present the right theoretical knowledge to be applied to a certain case, but also to be aware of the feelings and sensibilities of other people (especially the student in this presumed scenario). For example, an abrasive personality that presents impressive edits that look far above the quality of the students own work might actually be detrimental to the students progression. It's easy to feel intimidated when faced by such a response to your small plea for some help and guidance. Some students might enjoy and feel inspired by such exhibitions, but I'm guessing most don't. I don't.
My personal experience of posting art and recieving critique - given the circumstances that have led up to this topic being brought up - has been pretty positive. I don't post very often, but when I do I have usually recieved several replies with mostly helpful suggestions and critique. When my threads have died, it's been because of my own failing: I stop working on my art and don't update the thread. One reason for this that I know of is that I'm very cautious of other people. Even as a stranger among a group of strangers, I'm worried that I might do something embarassing or improper and be percieved as a bumpkin. Whenever I'm about to try and reach out to other people (online), looking for help or just socialization, I take care to read up on and properly identify the decorum of their group. Maybe understanding and performing correctly in these systems eases my (eventual) introduction to the group, but it certainly has never helped me improve my art or made it so I actually reach out to new people and make friends. Introduction doesn't guarantee a cure to my cautiousness.
So, if I know it's so bad being this cautious, why won't I just be honest? Honest about my ignorance, honest about my lacking skills, honest about needing help, honest about my insecurities, honest about my own personality, flaws and all? I don't know the whole answer. But I do think that the attitude of dismissing this issue that's brought up by Vakinox, by stating that only the people who are "hard workers" and put in noticable "effort" into improving their work will get/deserve attention and help, further stigmatizes these feelings of ineptitude. I've let threads die because I've gotten so many good suggestions that I fear I'll expose my ignorance by even attempting to accomodate them. What if I haven't understood the instructions people have given me? Will they think I'm stupid?
The one who is seeking help is always the disadvantaged one. It's important to try and keep this in mind when approaching someone who is looking to improve with their art. To expose your skill level publicly with that first post is the most valuable action of all, and it alone makes that person worthy of attention. And respect. Unfortunately, even going in with this mindset, there will be a lot of unattended queries. It's okay to say that this happens because there simply isn't enough time or energy on the part of the people who could help out. But never say that it's because they are undeserving of attention! Even if that is what you percieve to be the truth, don't say it. Because such a statement will only cause harm, and possibly stifle activity even further.
Thank you for reading. I'm not sure any of this is applicable to the discussion any longer. But writing this has made me have to think a lot of things through, and I can't abstain from sharing it now. (that is also how I feel about attempting to give critique: you learn by putting into words. You learn by teaching. And, hopefully, you'll get better at it and it might even help your own artistic pursuits)
(Time is never wasted if you're trying to help someone)
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We currently should be having a discussion to figure out how we can help users like yourself feel motivated to contribute more
The discussion is about getting good critiques at this forum. Part of that is creating incentive for experienced artists to contribute. The other half of that responsibility is on the person who is seeking feedback. Everyone is responsible for their own improvement, and knowing how to ask for advice and show appreciation for advice or opinions received is an important part of having a successful thread. There are behaviors that thread-creators should avoid: being vague about the direction of the piece or the areas you need help resolving, taking long breaks between responses, and abandoning a thread after receiving advice. This discussion should be about educating inexperienced artists as much as creating incentive for experienced artists. These are things the general rules and FAQ cover, but there will always be those who don’t read stickies or possess forum etiquette.
I think some good ideas have already been posted:
*wiki for hyperlinking key terms
*archiving solid threads with good general critique
*archiving solid threads that cover recurring themes (need help making a tree? A sword? Check the archive)
And for creating incentive for experienced artists:
*’thanks’ system (weighted as Atnas described)
Does the karma system here work? Or is it just rarely used? Are there penalties for abandoning threads (or asking how to pixel a sword)?
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Tim I've seen your edits and have been astounded by them; so if some of the people you're trying to help fail or refuse to comprehend, know at least others who are willing to learn can browse through and gain from them.
Tim, I remember seeing a lot of those and learning from them. Take what you will from that.
Firstly, the animation you posted in my thread was most definitely not ignored. Also, I remember seeing and internalizing all of these great edits. Unfortunately, they may not get through to the original creator, but they are all great sources of information for the rest of the community.
Thank you all. Really. It's heartwarming.
You see, none of us want to be worshipped.
But we want to know that our posts have been useful.
If some of you learnt from us, then it was definitely worth our time.
Maybe, to keep our motivation going, we have to find a way to aknowledge our "usefulness".
I understand you don't want / have time to post each time you learn from a post or an edit.
But it's really important for us, otherwise we feel let down.
A thanks system (I would prefer a humble "like" system) could be the solution.
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This is not so much a critique of Pixelation, but a critique of life.
The problem or solution is not a person.
People do what they can
sometimes that's not enough
albeit it's a whole damn much.
There are unrealistic expectations stressing too few factors.
That will wind this place down faster than ever.
Disciplinary debates and placebo policy won't help
in a hapless masquarade of matters.
This thread started an impeachment
but when this community handled it
with goodwill fairer than recieved
it proved what it's worth
contribution deserved.
Clearly this incident opened up a bigger can of worms that needed some talk anyway.
---------------------
At this point in time, the procedures of Pixelation exceed its resources.
I remember there being arguments about tutorials versus custom critique in the past.
For the longest time Pixelation took pride in the later, because ideally it is the best.
However, it also is the most demanding and work intensive.
This reminds me of the current discussion on animation techniques:
Of course frame-based has the best potential, but for whom other than an immortal god?
When you look at the greater picture, you can get more creative results with more productive methods.
In the end it is the right mixture tailored to you that's best.
Same in this here.
Tutorials propagate a limited view on things, but they are there to help.
Who wants to be responsible for creating fads and nasty habits?
However, what does it matter when the better alternative is not available?
What ambition someone has is their own business.
Dealing in absolutes does not make the world better.
Those that do not want to be serious about their work
can help themselves until proven serious enough
for the benefit of both parties involved.
There is one trick remaining to get the best of it for the low end:
Instead of one example in one tutorial to one thing
compile a hundred examples to every one thing
according to every artist's quirky whim
and have the order presented randomized each click.
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For start I apologies if I make some writing mistakes, English is my second language. :)
From what I have read here, I mostly agree with Kcilc, PixelPiledriver and tim (I remember most of those edits ;)), but I also must say that Vakinox is right for some things.
I like this forum, and almost every day I drop by to see what's new. I learn very much from some treads. Like Vakinox I was also disappointed couple times and stop visiting site, but somehow I always come back cause really there's no better alternative.
I think that people need to give some kind of feedback here. That don't have to be amazing edit, or very long and thorough comment, simple feedback I like this/ change that is more then enough. Main thing I post my work is to hear how people react to it, and to use that information to improve it. To many times, you can see that more than 5 users are online (including some of "200+" users) and there's not even one comment on top current treads. Many times I have waited for any kind of comment, and didn't get any for days. I agree that nobody is forced to give you comment, but out of those 5 active user at least one have some sort of opinion about at least one tread on the front page.
PixelPiledriver is most useful user here, and it's pure gold when he gives you a comment. :) Unfortunately that can't be very often. :(
On the other hand, some users first need to learn to draw before start to make pixel art. Some newbies think that because resolution is small making pixels is very easy. They think that they can compensate lack of artistic sense, by doing pixels. This kind of treads are usually the ones that get 0 reply. I also skip this kind of treads.
I draw purely for fun, and personal pleasure. I like to critique characters and character animations so I usually skip nature, foliage or painterly pixel treads. When I make an edit I usually come back to see what was the reaction, and was it helpful, and sometimes (like tim) I see that it was just a waste of time. This is something that can't be prevented, it is what it is, but it doesn't mean that some other user won't appreciate your effort.
At the end, I'll still comment, I'll still post cause I simply love pixel art. :D
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For me personally, I don't really like giving feedback due to the subjective nature of art. If the original artist disagrees with me, I feel as if my input was in vain. In addition to this, I am sometimes doubtful of whether my opinion of the piece is really justified (ex. I tend to prefer high contrast over low while others might not >> conflict >> me sad). The problem with "high quality critique" is that no one can really judge the quality of the critique unless it is really obvious, even then some people might still not take the critique into account (though this hasn't been happening as of late, moreso just abandoning the topic for unknown reasons). I feel that we need to set some sort of posting standard in the community and some tacit rules about posting. I am an offender when it comes to one liners and lazy posts asking for critique and I understand that there would be very little to work off of. When a piece is posted there should be some background such as purpose and audience as well to help people form an opinion. Instead of ignoring topics without extra information, members should actively ask for information that will help them critique the piece easier. The hope is that people will eventually see the "ideal" way to post to receive the maximum amount of help and can adjust their posts accordingly.
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Organizing and archiving helpful posts is of paramount importance. Not too long ago I mentioned we should archive PPD's messages about animation in order to make them readily available but I was told: "Just search his posts if you want to find his useful messages" (talk about missing the point :mean:).
There's a wealth of information in the forum, all those in depth edits and explanations... there is SO MANY of them and they're really well done too. It doesn't make sense that they end up disappearing as the threads they are in become older. I've archived quite a few of Cyangmou and PPD's edit on my hard drive and I read them every once in a while.
I think we should have a glossary of some kind. How often do we have running, walking, jumping animations? Those have been really well explained in the past and there's no reason those shouldn't be carefully sorted out and organized somewhere. I don't mind volunteering to help out in this task. There's stuff on perspective, stuff on anatomy, stuff of portraits... wealth of information at our fingertips.
Also, about the "thank system", it's been discussed quite a bit and I'm under the impression that an overwhelming majority of members are "for" it. Is it something the administration has taken an official stance for? If so, how likely is it going to be implemented? I sort of feel like everyone is saying: "Yeah, there should be a "thanks" option" but is this something that's "officially" going to be implemented?
What about the forum skin?
I'm just wondering what was in the works for pixelation. This discussion ended shifting to a positive and constructive outcome, that's good! :y: So, would it be possible to know what's been "officially" approved and upcoming?
I'm not saying this to rush anything, just curious as to what was coming in the near/far future.
Reading Tim's point of view was also insightful (Tim, I used some of your edit in my game, remember? So don't think everything went to waste). It made me appreciate edits even more and made me realize that I really should study them more than I currently do.
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Not too long ago I mentioned we should archive PPD's messages about animation in order to make them readily available but I was told: "Just search his posts if you want to find his useful messages" (talk about missing the point :mean:).
I think that was me :P.
I think we should have a glossary of some kind. How often do we have running, walking, jumping animations? Those have been really well explained in the past and there's no reason those shouldn't be carefully sorted out and organized somewhere. I don't mind volunteering to help out in this task. There's stuff on perspective, stuff on anatomy, stuff of portraits... wealth of information at our fingertips.
I think all of this is a great idea and should definitely be done.
The only problem though is that the newcomers can read all that stuff for as long as they want, but a lot of them won't be able to self critique using those archives. They will still need the specific thing pointed out to them. Even the best artists become blind to their own mistakes after staring at something for too long.
Do it anyways though, it might keep the threads of people who did internalize and self critique from clogging up the wip forum. Leaving us with the threads that will generally get no replies, and sometimes, no responses from the op even after edits and critique. It seems like the ones who do internalize better tend to have the more productive wip threads.
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Zizka: To answer your questions about what's happening behind the scenes,
-The Forum skin is coming along nicely. Indigo did a good job putting it together, but he is waiting on icons that match it. Then we need to apply the skin etc.
-I found a few thank plugins, currently both admins are rather busy and can't implement it yet. But there is a thread for that in the administration section, and it's something that is coming once Crow gets time.
-We took Cyangmou's expansive list of great threads and we are narrowing it down for additions to the feature chest. The ones that don't make it into the feature chest will be put into an archival thread, I think.
-We're also going to implement a tag system at the same time as we get the thank system. It'll be easier to find threads based on category.
A wiki has been brought up in this thread but we haven't started discussing that yet. One thing at a time, we need to clear these out of the way first.
I wish the people capable of implementing these things weren't so busy but it's just how it's been and it's all their own time they're giving up so you can't fault them. Prep work for getting them into place isn't lacking, and I am definitely sore for a new skin specifically, but there's been more posts in the admin forum in the last month than there has been in the past 2 years.
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@Fahrenheit:
Oops, my bad :blind:.
@Atnas:
Oh I don't blame them at all, not a minute. Thanks for the update! :y: It's encouraging!
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Sometimes you see guys coming on internet and expecting everyone is going to like what they do. They can't deal with real critique and in a way are doomed to be mediocre at best. It's really funny how they expect things to go and forget that this is internet. It's also good to keep in mind that 95% (even more) of all artists (and people) suck. You could be that person!
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We have shortcuts like : RULES : (without spaces) which is a shortcut link to the rules thread.
Perhaps to get around ignoring members who need low level critique we can make a set of locked threads that cover basic mistakes and teach proper solutions such as :PILLOWSHADING: :BANDING: :ANTIALIASING: :CLUSTERS: :HUESHIFTING: etc.
If we had these emote links a member could just say "You are using :PILLOWSHADING: on the beetle's shell" and from there the OP would have a link to a detailed article and return with an edit addressing that concern.
It's a blunt force solution to a problem we aren't doing anything about, I don't see how it could hurt aside from people abusing these links and neglecting to give original critique. That's better than nothing, though.
I'm from the old pixelation forum, and I actually had no idea about the : RULES : shortcut, so the very fact that the code already exists for this type of stuff is a no-brainer to include for helping new users with basic pixel-art techniques.
If someone needs further clarification about a shortcut topic they've already read, an experienced member could reply once to address any confusing points the shortcut topic did not address, and that reply could be incorporated into, say, the shortcut topic on banding for example. A list of these shortcuts and other info could be maintained as well in a "n00b README thread" of some kind that contains vital info (outside of the basic forum rules) such as these shortcuts and the simple fact that you can click to zoom an image (since most forums don't offer such an awesome feature and it may never occur to a new user to click on an image to check it out).
I think Atnas has a great point with his suggestions (especially the ones we can implement now).
Combine the shortcut topics with a goto thread that is meant to get new users acclimated to pixel art terminology, special forum features, pixel tools such as Graphics Gale / Promotion / etc. (with pros/cons of each tool), and also doubles to encourage new users to offer critique in order to help themselves by helping others where they can via edits/critiques (ensuring them that they always have *something* to offer, even if all they can offer is that the guy's leg is too small). A thread like this would need to be as prominent as the rules thread, and perhaps even linked to from the Rules thread as well, to ensure new users are more likely to read it.
I feel like we, as a community, can make issues like these disappear so that new users who come here for the pixelart masters won't rely on or expect them to help with basic stuff just because they know the craft well (since the shortcuts should do the trick as long as we update the topics whenever a new user comes up with something they found confusing about the shortcut topics). I think activity could increase a lot more with tools like these available to both newbies and veterans alike.
I post critiques where I can find time simply because I too know what it's like to come into a place from more active forums, offer your best work (which is relative crap to those viewing it), and have it ignored.
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I'll just throw my experience out there, as a counterpoint. I came here with essentially 0 art skills and 0 pixelling skills. Probably 95%+ of my time was just working on my own, trying to figure stuff out and make it work. Then when I hit a plateau, I'd come here to see if someone could help me move past it. Sometimes, I would get responses that were amazing and helpful (I remember some great ones from Helm). Sometimes, I would get responses that were good, but not revelatory. And sometimes I would get nothing. But anything I got, I would try and learn from if I could (often, it was way over my head and I was simply not good enough to learn all I could from it).
I also started giving critique. When I picked something up, I'd try to pass it along to other newbies. Honestly I learned so much from doing this, trying to create edits. Did I have a big impact on anyone? Almost certainly no, but there were a few times where I really helped people and it felt good. And from doing these edits and trying to see what could be improved about a piece, I got better.
Perhaps you're focusing too much on what you think you should get, what you're entitled to, and too little on what you can give back. Plus, when I look at your posts I see loads of good feedback. Lots of it you dismissed as outside your skill level or ignored.
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1) The prime evil in my mind is this rule:
[...]
Don't double-post.
[...]
I certainly consider myself serious, but I am also serious about a computer vision project right now, and some other design projects.
And I need some time to let things settle a bit and look at what my image looks like several times to find things that are wrong with it, at least unless someone else points out the flaws.
And by that time the thread may have dropped.
So, if I have an update, then according to the forum rules I am free to edit the post with a zillion updates, but no one will ever see it.
Wouldn't it be better to allow returning to a piece some time later by double-posting if there is an update?
Or, to avoid a one-person-thread, to allow to delete the posts with the updates that expired without response? Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't find a delete option.
2) Thanking system will add clicks that waste time in my opinion.
3) [...]
(I mean, the thread with all those awesome crits that have been ignored)
About the examples taking too much time: is it really necessary to prove that your version is better, or is it enough to just clarify some principle that you think could improve the image in question?
4) Trying to reuse a classic pose for a dragon.
Not exactly the same pose as in references, though, I might have messed it up.
[...]
Guess what, that yielded some response, but 0 about the pose or composition.
(well, it did yield something useful, which was an obvious need for preemptive clarification about my intentions with the image)
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1) The prime evil in my mind is this rule:
[...]
Don't double-post.
[...]
I certainly consider myself serious, but I am also serious about a computer vision project right now, and some other design projects.
And I need some time to let things settle a bit and look at what my image looks like several times to find things that are wrong with it, at least unless someone else points out the flaws.
And by that time the thread may have dropped.
So, if I have an update, then according to the forum rules I am free to edit the post with a zillion updates, but no one will ever see it.
Wouldn't it be better to allow returning to a piece some time later by double-posting if there is an update?
Or, to avoid a one-person-thread, to allow to delete the posts with the updates that expired without response? Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't find a delete option.
Double posts are tolerated if the thread is a bit older. I suppose we should rephrase the rules a bit at some point in the future.
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Proving your version is better can be needed for artists who have gotten too close to their picture and can't see the flaws others do or are afraid of fixing the image because they're worried it'll be worse off. Seeing a better made image can make them reconsider their picture, whereas a badly made or unclear example rarely helps motivate change.
Also writing proper advice takes time regardless of the quality of your examples.
Regarding your dragon thread - because you used a very specific cartoony pose, it's probably much easier to assume you are using it as a placeholder to study something else. It's imperative to state your intentions up front ("I want to make a cartoony pose and so far have been copying off this donald duck pose but could folks give advice on that?" or something)
Thanking system is not a waste of time for a couple simple reasons. Humans thrive off the appreciation of others, that is one of the basic functions that makes us want to group into a society.
1. The recipient can thank the poster for their critique, verifying that they have indeed noticed the post and making the critiquer feel better even if the recipient did not reply.
2. Other people can thank the poster for an especially well made critique.
3. It lessens the amount of inane "good job" and "well done" style posts that have no point.
The starbound forums is a place with a system for liking posts that I've hung out at for a bit. After they detached likes from affecting forum titles, it has settled mainly into a "You did well!" and "I agree with this poster!" message.
I don't think that's so bad.
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Regarding your dragon thread - because you used a very specific cartoony pose, it's probably much easier to assume you are using it as a placeholder to study something else. It's imperative to state your intentions up front ("I want to make a cartoony pose and so far have been copying off this donald duck pose but could folks give advice on that?" or something)
Admittedly it was vague, and I also realized and regretted that a bit later. Part of the reason was that I was tired when I posted it, and the other part was that explanation about what I am trying to achieve exactly is bit on the too long side (and I have still not explained it fully, but it seems I should to avoid confusion).
I see thanking system as being bit too abstract for the purpose, but if people feel that it is meaningful, it is certainly no more than just my opinion.
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I certainly consider myself serious, but I am also serious about a computer vision project right now, and some other design projects.
And I need some time to let things settle a bit and look at what my image looks like several times to find things that are wrong with it, at least unless someone else points out the flaws.
And by that time the thread may have dropped.
So, if I have an update, then according to the forum rules I am free to edit the post with a zillion updates, but no one will ever see it.
Wouldn't it be better to allow returning to a piece some time later by double-posting if there is an update?
#21 from the FAQ (http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=4265.msg53089#msg53089)
I posted a new thread with artwork and it has 40 views, but nobody has replied! What's the deal?
Be patient, and for the love of all that is pixel-related, DO NOT double-post to bump the topic unless it has fallen off the first page. Pixelation has many lurkers who merely browse the site and do not post, so chances are that 35 of those 40 hits may be random visitors passing by. Writing a critique takes time and effort, so members might view your thread and check out your work, but reply later in the day or week when it is convenient for them.
I think this is just easy to miss and could perhaps be put in a better spot, or expanded upon.
I send out about 1-10 "Please don't double post" pms a week.
Every once in a while I consider writing a post somewhere about why it's important not to double post, and when it's appropriate, but I keep forgetting.
Or, to avoid a one-person-thread, to allow to delete the posts with the updates that expired without response? Maybe it was just me, but I couldn't find a delete option.
Only moderators can delete a post/thread.
If you/anyone ever needs something deleted PM me.
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I don't know if this topic is open for discussion or if it's more of a "deal with it!" type of thing, but... how about letting people double post if x number of days have passed without a response? I mean, if it's been two weeks and you're still updating your thread which is now on page 3 of the WIP forum... well, things are looking pretty grim, no? But if people were allowed to double post after two weeks, at least there would be some light at the end of the tunnel :)
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I don't know if this topic is open for discussion or if it's more of a "deal with it!" type of thing, but... how about letting people double post if x number of days have passed without a response? I mean, if it's been two weeks and you're still updating your thread which is now on page 3 of the WIP forum... well, things are looking pretty grim, no? But if people were allowed to double post after two weeks, at least there would be some light at the end of the tunnel :)
Have you read the last few posts? :huh:
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I commented on the original thread that generated this one.
Been reading this one and I'm seeing a lot of the veterans replying to express their reasons behind the level of activity they provide.
I would just like to say that I find it really interesting to get this sort of perspective on the other end of the forum.
The full array of experiences have occurred in my few posts in the past several months that I have been active, including not receiving comments or advice after posting updates, my threads receding into the darkness beyond page 1, finding myself feeling rather wounded by a powerful criticism or devastatingly powerful edit that shows how terrible my current skills are, edits that are radically different than my efforts or so far outside of my skill level that I can't even consider trying without feeling a little weepy, and so on.
My very first post here was filled with the whole lot of these effects, but I feel that it's a perfect example of what can STILL happen in this forum if a terrible artist can manage to just keep on plugging away and trying.
http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=15933.0 (http://wayofthepixel.net/index.php?topic=15933.0)
But, I have found this website incredibly resourceful in the time I have been here. I started with a truly horrible piece and received a lot of "Your art is broken" sort of replies from some of the big boys around here. It can hurt a little to realize that you are doing it wrong, but you have to train yourself to soak that up and accept that it's true.
I really want to learn to do this style of art and I spent a good amount of time going through the forum's history (starting at the beginning of what was available) and reading every thread. [Seriously]
I learned a lot. I saved images for references. I saved tutorial images and powerful edits to compare. I have a massive folder now to look through containing a ton of the art you guys have created. It's like a huge toolbox for me to dig through whenever I wonder how to do a texture or lighting effect or something else...
That's really not enough though. Because you can't just walk in with no experience and look at someone has done something and emulate it into original art without hours of practice and really growing to understand why and how they did what they did. So those edits and comments in the forums are extremely powerful. I would like a chance to thank those people that have helped me and I always try to reward the edits I receive or the comments with more work on my part. I would feel guilty otherwise, I think.
I have often felt since my start that the best way to receive more feedback is to provide more work yourself. You can bump your posts up by updating and I have seen no criticism for necro'ing a post with a valid edit/update. So really I don't think any passionate or truly dedicated novice should see a post ever slide beyond the first or second page if they don't want it to. Just keep working on it.
The thing I have learned about pixel art is that there is always some way to improve something or do it in a different way that is at least equivocal or interesting to look at. There is never a loss of effort from trying. If you post on this forum you have the internet and that is really the most powerful tool humans have ever known. You can find art lessons on line. Color lessons. Lessons on anything really.
As I have grown, however little that has been, I have grown increasingly respectful of the edits I do receive and the time others have invested in my work. I have tried my best to give edits to others when I know I can help in some way or maybe help with a bit of knowledge that I have gained. It tests my own abilities and understanding and I feel that it's like paying it back some to those that have helped me.
In summation: Thanks to those that have helped me and others. I really do appreciate it even if I have been unable to immediately reward your efforts with a masterful revision that captured your points and maximized on your assistance. And also please don't lose heart in the effort because even though the cost may not seem to equal the reward to you guys at times, the reward is mostly hidden from you because it's truly on the recipient's end that the rewards have room to shine.
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Have you read the last few posts? :huh:
<sigh>
Alright, thanks.