Critique => Pixel Art => Pixel Art Feature Chest => Topic started by: M¨ller on May 19, 2012, 02:39:35 pm

Title: GR#102 - 45░ Plan Projection
Post by: M¨ller on May 19, 2012, 02:39:35 pm
I have little time for pixel art, and I learned first perspctiva was 45 and I really want to go deeper in others.

sorry my english; ::)
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 25, 2012, 11:04:47 am

I am new to pixel art, I made this more now, someone is willing to comment?

Title: Re: some works.
Post by: jams0988 on May 25, 2012, 01:10:55 pm
You haven't gotten any comments yet because there isn't much wrong with your pieces. Just be patient, post art, and keep up the good work! =)
You'll get more comments soon, for sure. You just need to show us more art, hahah. Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 25, 2012, 02:05:37 pm
yes, thanks for comment ;D. Here is another piece, I do not know another perspective :-[ and would like to learn how those super nitendo games lol, I really love to paint, draw, create and see the final result, hj even going to try a different kind of pixel art as a character the fight is never seriously tried lol. :lol:

(http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/44/60/59/miller11.png) erick the credits, a friend who edited the thorns and nails. :o

and.. sorry my english.  :mean:

"hail google translater" :D
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on May 25, 2012, 05:53:24 pm
123 colours holy jesus :o
and i don't think those hands work too well, they do look somewhat webbed and amphibian if that's the look you are going for but they don't flow correctly with the arm.
my suggestions for a few improvements, especially in the hands.
also reduced it down to 40 colours, you have quite alot of readable detail for such small sprites ;D
oh and personally I'd advise against such strong background colours, it's eye burningly vibrant, and if you pixel with that BG tone it could effect your perception of contrast and colour intensity/saturation etc.

and most your pixels are really strong, just things you should concentrate on, colour palette. and also avoid dithering, your robes looks nice but the torso area doesn't benefit from that dithering, you might want to clean it up a bit, anyway hope that helps :)

Edit: also that style of isometric is called oblique if i recall, and its most notably seen in the Ultima games, it doesn't adhere to perspective in the traditional sense, but the main benefit (and main reason it was used) is it required less angles to render and animate, only 2, versus 3 if they mirrored on the X axis, FFTactics and the like did a similar thing but with a more correct perspective, also 'oblique' style isometric perspective is 45degree lines as opposed to 30 of standard 3 quarter iso?

Edit II:
thought I'd take the time to help with some pointers and observations about Isometrics in pixel art, (also remind myself of what I studied awhile ago, I even made a primitive ISO engine awhile ago)
there are the major forms of ISO, 3/4 is most common form of isometric projection in games, I also elaborated some methods of fitting the tiles into the grid, hope its self explanatory, also did view of all the planes you can create independently and then align in your engine with a offset grid, It's rather complicated, pixeling Iso is easier than actually making it work i can tell you :blind:

I also showed how your character would fit perfectly into Ultima style of (quirky mixed) perspective, you need to rotate the sprite by 90 degrees to get him on the other angle. The exact same principle would be true of the remaining 2 angles, but you need to do a back view for those. Hope you and other's find it helpful, probably better examples around I could've just linked to, but oh well :D

Edit III:
also quickly did this, man i gotta spend more time doing my own stuff :lol:
noticed the straight line of pixels, i can see what you were trying to do with the perspective, but it looks a bit strange, and to have the effect of perspective darkening the bottom would help reinforce its depth and separate it from the same plane as the top of the character, rather poor/rushed edit but hope it conveys what i mean. probably should have a crisp outline to separate it just make sure its contoured correctly, and darkening the shading at the bottom would help (my edit makes the wings fuse with the body) also avoid adding extra colours you barely use, and combining 2 shades or making one darker can make them justifiable, but too similar and they have little point. but 36 is a much better colour count than 123 :lol:
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 25, 2012, 11:22:28 pm

Yes, there are many colors in the amphibian because it went through many stages so far, eg  went through a change in Firework by a friend and was also changed the colors used. :-[

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/th/the_we10.png)(http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/44/60/59/miller11.png)(http://i.imgur.com/nQ7o7.png) :-*

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/th/anime410.gif) :o

but dude you are awesome :y: I really liked how you edited them, you understand much, I'm pretty new still have long way to go, this month I started four months to pixel art, you explained in a way that I understood :y:.

but the prospect is the same as the last one very good game! classic.

I also want to learn other perspectives.

I understood you explained the dragon ;D, I'll try to make a dragon again, because there is this very old. :-\
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 28, 2012, 03:19:04 am


any comments about this piece? :-\

ultima 7 style, perspective 45║. ;)
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on May 28, 2012, 06:12:54 pm
look pretty swell, the detailing looks good, they kinda look like they are leaning backward though, and it looks like you've simulated Ultima style inventory management with your palette too :lol:
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 29, 2012, 03:44:12 am
Yes, I'm trying to create color palettes with cold, hahaha I tried to do a version backside and also did "tried" a wolf undead for an event in another forum.

thanks for the comment I thank you.

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/wolfun11.png)  :-[
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: coffee on May 29, 2012, 12:15:52 pm
The art looks really good actually for being new to pixelart. However, as Grimsane said, the angle looks kind of wierd. The animations of the blue creature looks like his swimming on this back.

I dont believe ive played a game with that kind of angle. and I wrote somewhere that you aimed for a 45 degree angle. Whatever angle you choose to use, a isometric game dont have a
down and up angle on your chars like you've made, whatever the kind of isometric angle.

The angles are:

still, the character design is nice

Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 29, 2012, 01:50:23 pm
I mean, really think there's three games this angle "45" the father is the famous ultima  seven.
(http://www.artfulgamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/screen8.gif) :D

It assumes you're seeing the character from top to bottom at an angle of 45 ░, then it may seem strange to you.
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/baseme10.png) This is a basis for a character I am creating. :-[

The Blue Monster, was to be a sea monster, it really was supposed to be on a blue background like he was on the sea or out of the water. :P

thank you for comment, any tips on my character? :-*
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: rikfuzz on May 29, 2012, 04:00:21 pm
I actually played this game, but I don't remember it looking this..  nauseating!  Almost feel a bit of vertigo looking at that screenshot.   :-[

Your assets all look good though! 
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Redshrike on May 29, 2012, 05:22:31 pm
Once you've gotten used to the perspective your brain filters it just fine.

Generally, I would recommend that you try some stuff outside of the Tibia/Zezenia genre.  I have the feeling that Pixelation folks will be more able to help with things that are within a less idiosyncratic style, and even if that's all you want to do the principles transfer pretty directly. 
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Facet on May 29, 2012, 06:24:49 pm
Again, great work with only a few months experience under your belt :y:, If you can handle this rather esoteric projection then simpler orthographic views shouldn't be a problem.

Interesting discussion here, 'Perspective 45' is a fairly apt moniker, It just looks like an uncommon type of plan oblique/military projection (labelled as Ż in Grimsanes diagram aka 1:1 isometric) rotated so the verticals (as oppose to the plan) are at 45 degrees. For example:


Edit - Added an actual Boktai screen example; my point being that they're basically the same thing, and I quite like it :).
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: numlock on May 29, 2012, 06:36:52 pm
I think only unusual thing about your 45 degree characters that they look quite ok from front or back but when you turn them sideways they give feeling of toys/figures instead of actual in game creatures, I'd suggest you to go for UO isometric degree which should be pretty close to Boktai game that facet mentioned, but thats because I think it would be easier for you to pull off while making things look like they are actually there and I'm a big sucker for UO type isometric games :), other than that if you enjoy/really want to make Ultima7 like angle like I said I think sideway characters looks bit unusual but again that might just be me, else looks fine to me.
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on May 29, 2012, 10:25:25 pm
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/baseme10.png) This is a basis for a character I am creating. :-[
his legs are too low, his torso is elongated, its extremely difficult to work convincingly within this perspective and I bet it could even baffle seasoned pixel artist (of which I'm far from being). and especially without refering to existing game sprites of any "perspective 45" game, here is my hurried attempt to see if I could improve upon your base, and I found it rather difficult, and there is an inherent tilt due to having to adhere to the square grid and match that awkward axis, It's quite something to tackle immediately in pixels I'll give you that :P and also just to mess with your mind, I arranged it like this too :crazy: which isn't so insane, (minus the perspective of the sprites) Zelda does this for the top down dungeons and a few other games also, birds eye oblique projection?

the one under the green dot is the one i made an effort with. I think one of your problems is that you need to use darker tones to reinforce the depth of the sprite, and in some cases you have details of equal brightness on their lower halves, making the depth confusing, and the pixels are offset by 1 pixel, which sounds easy to fix but ruins the edge flow you established, also my edit got shorter as a side effect of trying to correct the issues, and I couldn't easily re-enlarge without causing yet more perspective issues.

and I'd prefer boktai style 45░ perspective, atleast it'd be easier to do sprites, having a diagonal angle is easier to do perspective-correct legs on for one.

there aren't many games that do it, the original jagged alliance, earthbound, boktai and uhmm ultima can't think of any others. the intention of using non topdown projection schemes is theoretically to give a greater sense of 3 dimensional depth lacking in 2D games, and I can see why not many use this, because it's not the most convincing :lol: and difficult to pull off naturally
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Etchebeur on May 29, 2012, 11:08:19 pm
In perspectiva45, there is a shadow inside the sprite that creates appearances as the dark underside of the arm because in p45 the cube works like:(http://i31.tinypic.com/wtg774.png)
Because the light comes from the northwest. I believe it contains aspects of isometric and top down, the light works in more interactive object, that is, depending on the volume and position the light will behave differently  :blind:

Redshrike: do the red eggs silks!
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 30, 2012, 12:20:55 am
oks, several examples and constructive criticism I liked a lot. :y:

@ Redshrike ok '-' I love pixel art, and treat all angles / vision / perspective is the same way 45, 90 .. etc..

Art is art. :-\

@ Facet'm amazed this game botkai had never seen and liked :D the way that it, I will do according to his example a character botkai, thanks for the tips. :y:

@ Numlock really is! :crazy:

@ Grimsane think there is the same rule to align the shoulders, arms, knees, legs and feet. not sure about this rule if I'm wrong correct me, but had never heard about botkai I really liked! seems less strange than the prospect of the last 7 thanks for the tip. :P

@ Etchebeur '-' ... \ o / is actually ps45 on the basics that I learned with you, since already agradesšo Etchebeur for helping me so far. :-[

a small attempt from another angle is 60║? not sure about it I did it without help from anyone and not examples just tried to follow the rule I do at 45║ align the members, :crazy:

painting is not important, is actually just a scribble. any tips on this angle? :-[
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on May 30, 2012, 04:30:58 am
looks relatively correct, nice. but in relation to Games, that wouldn't tile. it would if it was like this however:

Edit: and just incase anyone was interested, this would be Ultima-logic perspective at that angle.
so no your latest wouldn't fit into any form of 2D game style projection. but you should try doing a scene utilizing your knowledge on perspective, give it a dynamic perspective, and try to do an interesting artistic scene ;D
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Etchebeur on May 30, 2012, 05:05:40 am
Grimsae, as I said, p45 is a fusion of isometric and top down, and as you said a dynamic perspective...since the floors is like top down and the objects like isometric;
thats is how wall works
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on May 30, 2012, 06:28:56 am
Grimsane, as I said, p45 is a fusion of isometric and top down, and as you said a dynamic perspective...since the floors is like top down and the objects like isometric;
thats is how wall works
??? yeah I'm aware of that, where did I state I was struggling to grasp the projection? but yeah thanks for illustrating it I suppose...
btw if it was due to the last image, it was in response to M¨ller's new attempt at "60"?" as he put it. the first image being adjusting it for standard 30░ isometric projection, and also how it would look with the ultima "p45" method applied to 30░ dimetric angles (or more accurately 26.565░ due to the limitation of pixels), just for the sake of showing what it'd look like ::)

google translate fail? :huh: I can't see where I made it seem I didn't understand the fundamentals, I have however stated like others that It is a bit of an awkward and idiosyncratic method of projection.

and also
Because the light comes from the northwest. I believe it contains aspects of isometric and top down, the light works in more interactive object, that is, depending on the volume and position the light will behave differently :blind:
that only applies to the environment. light sourcing of sprites themselves is relatively direction neutral, because they hard rotate the same sprite on 2 axis. only 2 angles are actually pixeled, front and back. so any lighting on the sprite would be ruined the moment it turned.
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Etchebeur on May 30, 2012, 08:26:08 am
I just completed my previous post, hahaha my fail for not said that before  :-[

About the light, just wanted to explain how the p45 works with light/shadow in a scenario(like you said) since the character is mobile, i agree with you.  :lol:
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: coffee on May 30, 2012, 10:57:45 am

god, I really need to play som of them games. 'cos the walls might aswell be floors in my brain in a platform kind of 2D/3D game :P
...I will probably have go and learn to do some of this stuff myself!

but like everyone said and I said at the beginning, really good job for a almost fresh pixelartist :) looking forward to more!
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on May 30, 2012, 04:05:06 pm
ok, thanks for the comments :-[, I will not say much because as already may have noticed I am not fluent  :D in English and some words have to translate and may seem strange to you :crazy:

may best explain the pictures, the painting is not being important'm just trying to hit the drafting format before .. :y:

ok, got messing with my mind. :crazy:

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/gdj8w10.png) 30║ correct? ???  I trained a bit-based tutorials. :lol:

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/cdzwg10.png)not really understand this angle is 15 ║ assumes? ??? ???

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/loc7n10.png)loved, this angle actually tried to create a base, any tips? :)

Thank you for the comments and tips, Grisame, Etcheuber and coffee  :D
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on May 30, 2012, 10:16:31 pm
the perspective is reasonably correct on that latest experiment, but the forms are a bit crazy, looks like learning p45 might've given you some bad habits with your proportions :lol: the chairs look okay but they could be one deeper because the seat of the chair is a bit too narrow, and the legs could come down a pixel or so too. and what's with the sun thing  ???  :lol:
and here is an example of boktai, the major plus of that game is it has 8 directional movement :crazy: but it should serve as good reference even if you are only spriting the 45║ angles.

and that was just an experiment, also is it just me, I've always found that it looks a lot more logical and less tilted if they rotate it 90║ and wondered why they didn't.

also twilight zone moment, I know exactly why. but when I did it it caught me off guard, because Instead of pixeling it at 45 I figured I'd double the height and then half the overall rez as a shortcut, and this happened.
obviously because the orientation of the 2wide pixel line. which made me start pondering things you could do with tall and wide pixels :crazy: been experimenting with lots of crap lately, especially interested in Hardware restrictions and display methods, and projection etc

also you know how your guys looked like they leaned back too much? they don't so much in this  :lol:
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Etchebeur on May 30, 2012, 11:09:33 pm
You should create a tutorial about perspectives  ::)
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on June 01, 2012, 03:01:47 am
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/botkai10.png) :-\

Thank Grimsane : :-*, tried to create a character, is still very basic. any tips on this new piece?


Title: Re: some works.
Post by: coffee on June 01, 2012, 11:40:35 am
That angle for some reason looks good to me :)

About the character.
The top-looking right + the bottom looking top, have a very strange stance. It looks like he's got a very bent back.
He's got overall a strange lightning and there is a lot of pillowshading going on. If it is a small piece like this, try not to use so many colours on a small spot.
There is also some outlines that melts together with the darkest brown that just makes it looks like it's jagged. Also about the colourchoices, you might wanna expand your paletts and not use so saturated colours.

I also thought about the lightning, I thought the lightsource came from the top left, so even if you have changed the bottom once hair, you need to chang ethe lightning of his body to fit, that means he got no
light at all coming from behind!

I made this edit for you:

Hope it helps and GL!
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on June 02, 2012, 11:02:52 pm
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/male_c10.png) :-[

Great! Thanks man, this time I tried to use few colors, and also let him in a better position. any tips? ::)

(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/th/cold_i10.png) this hammer is a friend "spike" which I edited for him.  :crazy:
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on June 09, 2012, 12:06:17 am
get back the perspective 45║,ultima style );

forever alone. :crazy:

lol. ;D

Title: Re: some works.
Post by: imnumberfour on June 09, 2012, 12:10:03 pm
I still have a hard time seeing these beautiful works in my head. A mock up, maybe? :3
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on June 15, 2012, 08:41:06 pm
I know is that it is a little strange that projection, I'll be working on a scene / mockup is something I still have not practiced. ::)
a character and a portrait.
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/17/22/58/67/th/linka12.png) :crazy:
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: Grimsane on June 16, 2012, 08:46:07 am
that one doesn't look like it's leaning back as much as your previous ones, progress. however although not really a problem, I think the portrait has an unnecessary slant and the could use a little refinement, here is a rather quick edit to show one direction you could go:
you'll need to keep a relatively consistent angle for all your portraits if it is a part of a set, so doing them at an angle that can make features harder to define wouldn't be the best approach, it'd be harder to change the expression for example

oh and there is a stray background coloured pixel between her legs
Title: Re: some works.
Post by: M¨ller on June 16, 2012, 07:09:47 pm
Grimsane thank you, I understand very well, but this was my first picture I am a little busy these days and I'll be editing and doing this for a dragon on my new WIP.

see if someone can give me tips on how to improve this dragon.


hail google translater..

sorry my english.;x