Pixelation
Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: ndchristie on May 28, 2006, 03:16:52 am
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The game concpet being somewhat similar to FFT, this is a set of all of the male none-character job classes, colored to be your party's troops. Heads are unique to the person, not the class, and are laid over the body as a separate image. i used a couple of different heads here just for the sake of breaking the consistancy (at first they all had the same head and looked a bit odd all together like this)
(http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/4141/males7nm.gif)
and for those interested in the jobs themselves.....
(http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/3006/diagram0po.jpg)
Within a job tree, the none-character soldiers may upgrade themselves 3 times. Other skills (theft, beast-riding, oration, etc) can be learned by any job class by accomplishing certain feets as part of the respective guild's journeyman quests. Characters have classes unique to themselves but may also join guids. hope it makes sense :P
im looking mostly for crits on the appearences but crits on the system itself are also welcome
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reminds me of ragnarok, but smaller :D
*cheers*
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nice sprites but its really hard to distinguish one job class from another. some of them have identical details. and i'm not sure if its the color choices but the details kind of blend together. you might also want to add a few more head options.
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I like how you merge two classes' clothing into the next, but it kinda makes several classes look too close. It's more realistic, and it'll look quite nice in a game, but I'm afraid there might be confusion once you're actually playing, when you need to guess the class of an enemy, especially if they use another pallette for team colours. Chemist, doctor and engineer are too close for example. Same with alchemist and master surgeon
Also, the outfits are a little basic on the higher classes. I dunno, but I'd expect some really fancy armor on a champion, not a bleached knight. That brings me to the pallette. As mentioned, it kinda reminds me of Ragnarok, which isn't basically a pro, since that pallette is so overdone. Why not go with alot more vibrancy in the colours?
I really like the diagram, though I'm not sure I'd do it the same way. There's some fuzzy naming going on. Change "Hero" to something like "Rebel" perhaps? "Hawkeye" is too creative and doesn't fit in as a name, perhaps something like "Assassin" would be better fit. "Alchemist" of a "Chemist" upgrade, it doesn't seem to make sense after engineer. perhaps "Scientist"? I think you can drop the "Master" on "Master Surgeon" and the "Arch" on "Archmage" ("Wizard" would be even better), since those seem out of place. Why have a master surgeon if there isn't a regular surgeon? Why have an Archmage, if there isn't any normal mages? I'm not too keen on a priest being a combination of a chemist and a magician either. I'd go with a scheme where you have a basic "adventurer", which splits into "chemist", "archer", "warrior" and "cleric", since then you can make a "crusader" in between "cleric" and "warrior", and a "doctor" in between "cleric" and "chemist". In between those you'd have your "priest" and "bishop". Still not the best though, there's something inherently wrong with the hexagonal class system you have. I'd have to give it all a little more thought to come up with something decent though...
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nm, Gil pretty much covered it all. I'd just like to add that i really love the palette, I don't think it looks like Rag all that much, more like the original concept art for Final Fantasy Tactics (forgot artists name at the moment) - great tribute! the costume design overlaps are fairly confusing though!
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As said very nice but too similar. My crit on the system is that you only branch out once... really what is the point of having the last class upgrade if their is only the choice of that class suped up? I guess a large stat bonus but seems a little pointless to me...
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they all have blue eyes! hitler would be proud to some extent
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That is SO sweet.
I have no comment......
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Hmm, gotta' agree that they look too close. Plus differentiating them through hair style/color just seems weird and (in gameplay terms, which I know you don't like to discuss but tough cheese ;) ) will mean you don't recognise a soldier from his appearance because when he changed job it involved a shampoo, set and dye. ;)
And if the changing hair is just a random thing and not indicitive of job but merely to make the image more varied, then there's *really* very little different between a buncha' jobs.
Personally as a player, I'd prefer like 9 job classes that really looked different than 19 which didn't.
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As people advance in a game they really want to look a lot cooler then when they started. Make your classes progressively more extravagant. at the moment they all look to similar.
No crits on the actual art its self
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Ok, so what im hearing is.....:
Classes dont particularly fit in some cases, so the names could use a real switching
Many classes are simply much too similar; especially in the outer tiers....
'hero' came from the idea that most heros are unbound, wandering mercenaries, but it doesnt really make too much sense i suppose
I like the idea of cleric, and that does make tihngs a lot more interesting and fit better
...Which should be much more ornate and extravagant
Everyone likes a badass, but the last upgrade should be presented a choice
Dr, what are you trying to sya about the hair? Each person will keep the same head from the moment you get him to the end of the game, the different heads here are just to break up the monotony of having over 20 of the same person, and yes there will be many more theres just a few here
So now ive got another question then, how exactly do people think the costumes should be changed/improved? Ive got some ideas, but id like to hear from you-all
Oh and i forgot to mention; shields (which can be equiped by any class reachable by a warrior) are displayed over the side of the sprite, and the maximum size and style of the shield depends on the class, but it might also add confusion since theres no rule against a paladin carying a tiny shield
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The sprites' proportions and colors are quite good (reminds me of legend of mana coloring) However like others mentioned, the designs are too similiar to each other. I would suggest picking a few deatils for each sprite and make them stand out alot more (wether its armor, the rob, a hat/helmet, etc) so each class looks a bit more different. you *might* try putting ornate symbols on the cloth representing some of the classes.
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yeah the back of all the cloaks has a class-specific symbol, you cant see from this angle though
i worry about hats because of the real extent to which the character's hair and face (well... all the faces are the same here because i havent actually made the headsets yet) make a big difference in terms of recognition, but they would help a tremendous amount......hhmm
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To remedy the 'hat' problem you could have uncovered portraits when a unit is selected? So the sprites could be hatted(?!) and the portraits could remain unique (doll system for portraits? I dunno something)
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To remedy the 'hat' problem you could have uncovered portraits when a unit is selected? So the sprites could be hatted(?!) and the portraits could remain unique (doll system for portraits? I dunno something)
Brilliant, thats why i <3 forums
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4647/setchanging2id.gif)
tried to address as many comments as possible, this also cycles through several Teams (sorry if its distracting), teams go : BuRd (you), BrGr (free/vagrant), YwRs (Kingdom of Circeny), PrBu (Lestegia City-States), and PkWt (Volkegrad Empire)
I havent yet touched a lot of things, and most still need hats. i think that 2nd and 3rd tier will all have hats, and novice and first tier will not
final tier has been given a choice now (and so i end up with 8 more ranks); when the person has mastered their 2nd tier class they can choose between light and dark (light being gold and dark being dark). Paladin (light) is now paired with Inquisitor (dark), Champion (light) is now paired with Warlord (dark), and so on. havent touched the chemist classes at all, they will probably get a complete reworking
still very much a WIP
I also began to animate them using the old walking base, Novice, Cleric, and Warrior (with messed up shoes...>.<) (these are all done from the same old character of mine, which has been on my pixeljoint for a while) Also, for fun, a knight with basic shield equipped:
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2995/togethermarch7bo.gif) (http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7230/shield1aa.gif)
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I see improvement already! :) (I still don't like the pallette, but it's stylish and all, so you might get away with it, don't mind me)
You really hit a soft spot of mine with that class system and the merging of equipment, which I think is a great idea by itself. I really have to restrain myself from not going on a rant. I'm now off to dissect medieval society to get a better class structure for myself to throw in my pile of unused ideas. Thanks for the inspiration.
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very nice improvements! re: the walk cycle, the legs appear to be spread apart some as they walk, like there is a space between their feet even during the walking. Also, the shoulders don't move at ALL - even a little shift there would help add a lot of perspective and believability to both the motion and the shape and design of the armor.
awesome stuff!
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Looking good. Here's a thought: since you have characters able to become a second tier class from two different classes, maybe have the first tier class determine which branch the character will become.
For example, say you have both archers and chemist becoming engineers. But if you are an archer first, you combine enigeer attributes to become a gunman. If you are a chemist, you combine that with engineering to be like I dunno a biological weaponist. There's no choice at the end (just the beginning) but I thought it would make for an interesting class system. Just a thought.
Sprites look great, my only concern is that the color swaps may not be drastic enough for quick and easy distinction.
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Great stuff adarias (inspirational). Most of the concerns have been said, but great improvments
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Man those are nice. You mkaing a game with them?
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To me the eyecolour pixels look more like eyeshadow, mainly because they are over a black and a white pixel. I guess the white pixel is supposed to be a highlight in the pupil, but it does not read as such to me at all.
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Looking great, though one crit I noticed on the walk cycle is at the peak of their right legs movement outwards, it looks as though their leg sticks too much out to their right. Maybe move that leg inwards a little more when it moves.
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Man those are nice. You making a game with them?
that depends; anyone know a good GBA coder who isnt busy?
To me the eyecolour pixels look more like eyeshadow, mainly because they are over a black and a white pixel. I guess the white pixel is supposed to be a highlight in the pupil, but it does not read as such to me at all.
The black pixel is the pupil, the white pixel the white of the eye. color above is to give the eye an accent, so in a way it is much like eyeshadow, though in the portraits of course they will have normal eyes (except for characters wearing eyeshadow, which of course will have eyeshadow.....). The more typical eyes that i tried out simply didnt work for me.
For example, say you have both archers and chemist becoming engineers. But if you are an archer first, you combine enigeer attributes to become a gunman. If you are a chemist, you combine that with engineering to be like I dunno a biological weaponist. There's no choice at the end (just the beginning) but I thought it would make for an interesting class system. Just a thought.
My only worry there would be that the person would really want to have a choice at the end; i dont like it when i make a decision in a game that i wasnt informed of prior to making it. Theres a big enough difference within the joint classes because of the original class (warriors can use shields so a crusader that was a warrior can use a shield, but clerics learn basic magics so a crusader that was a cleric can use basic magics. crusaders themselves learn low-grade magic attacks as well as fighting techniques, and the final tier gives them very powerful light/dark attacks)
a slight update, for ive nothing else to do:
(http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/9694/fullset3ix.gif)
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the chestplate you're using seems to be for amptly-endowed females. Might want to tone down the highlights or reshape.
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Ooh, far prefer the variety in those latest ones. Very nice indeed. Nice continuation of design elements down the job-tree, too.
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I think that you should be able to be dark at any stage of the system. Also, I would like to see At least something put in there relating to dariens Idea. And just as a thought, maybe as a novice, what happens affects their light or dark path, but that seems difficult.
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Until the final tier, non-characters are neutral, neither light nor dark but capable of both. Only when they have become masters of their art must they make a decision between the 2 and attain the final rank. I am 100% against the idea of having events before the final class change make the decision for the player because i think that in a situation where reaching the final class is so tiresome, i have no intention of forcing the player into taking a paladin when they wanted to have an inquisitor, especially given that the two classes become very different from that point on.
And yeah, i probably should make the chest plate less breast-y, if for no other reason than i dont want to have to make the girls even bigger >.< (you heard me folks, im trying to keep a sense of modesty in an anime-styled game :o)
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OK. I just had a few Ideas. BUt maybe breeding?(lol breeding). For example if A male inquisitor has a BAby with a female archer or something, their child would be a mix.
Maybe to further differentiate the teams or dark/lightness, you could have different features. Like pallid skin, tats, slightly different clothe design.
Hows this being released. I wanna play it.
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OK. I just had a few Ideas. BUt maybe breeding?(lol breeding). For example if A male inquisitor has a BAby with a female archer or something, their child would be a mix.
Maybe to further differentiate the teams or dark/lightness, you could have different features. Like pallid skin, tats, slightly different clothe design.
Hows this being released. I wanna play it.
The story as it Ive got it in my head takes place over the course of about 4 years (year of the Cattle, Tiger, Rabbit, and ending with Dragon), so 'breeding' (as you so quaintly put it :P) is out of the question (it also feels a bit rediculous?)
i guess im sorta missing the point of all your suggestions, im not sure what they would accomplish. perhaps you could explain why you want all of this? to me it sounds like nonesense.
Currently this game has no programme; just a story framework and the beginnings of the designs; what you are seeing is the soldier design process. All (well most of) the characters are already figured out and drawn but not sprited. When i find a GBA programmer interested, then ill put out release info, otherwise its a for-fun (probably doomed) effort with little goal other than keeping me amused and giving me a lot of small-sized tactical sprites to work from if people (like DrDerekDoctors who im beginning a project with using a similar graphical style) want to work on stuff.
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Those are some good updates Adrias. Something that kept on scaring me are the eyes. So every character in this game will be angry? Angry Fantasy Tactics? I would make variations of the facial features, not just templates of angry faces.
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Yeah it hought about the eyes before, but i also thought then that a person going into battle with the express purpose of killing lots of people wouldnt really be walking in with a big grin. Unlesss people think its a real issue, i think all guys will be pissed off, and the girls will have a slightly less harsh but still not happy look
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Heh, good idea. I say it's a good choice.
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Adarias that point of view would have more merit if the game was a harsh and gritty realistic battle simulator. But seeing how it is a Tactics thing, there's no violence in it. There's no killing. There's pretty colours and animations and numbers popping up above anime sprite heads and people doing a full 720 degree turn about themselves and then disappearing when they're 'killed'. Now I don't know on how many of these genre cliches you'll be faithful to (for all I know there might be super-deformed DECAPITATIONS and arrows realistically sticking in flesh and blood and battle awful) but seeing the design aesthetic so far, it seems to me this is heading towards nintendo feel. In this case, the characters might as well fight with a huge grin on their face, they're in fantasy-land where nobody ever gets hurt.
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Adarias that point of view would have more merit if the game was a harsh and gritty realistic battle simulator. But seeing how it is a Tactics thing, there's no violence in it. There's no killing. There's pretty colours and animations and numbers popping up above anime sprite heads and people doing a full 720 degree turn about themselves and then disappearing when they're 'killed'. Now I don't know on how many of these genre cliches you'll be faithful to (for all I know there might be super-deformed DECAPITATIONS and arrows realistically sticking in flesh and blood and battle awful) but seeing the design aesthetic so far, it seems to me this is heading towards nintendo feel. In this case, the characters might as well fight with a huge grin on their face, they're in fantasy-land where nobody ever gets hurt.
im not sure i really follow?
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What bit is giving you trouble?
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Helm's got a point there...
...besides, a good game must have blood.
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What bit is giving you trouble?
Im just not sure where you got the idea that because it was a tactical rpg with more traditionaly rpg sprites (as opposed to realistic), that theres no violence or killing. of course there is, (its a tactical rpg!) you cut someone, they bleed, their hp reaches 0 they die, fall down. theres no reason that, just because the art is rpg sprites, that they should be made happy and stupid.
In addition, even if death did take the form of spinning in circles and vanishing, if the 'death' is real to the characters, why would they be happy about it? If the death and violence isnt taken seriously by the characters, they wont be taken seriously by the players, and the game and the story lose whatever importance they may have had
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I don't think I've played any tactics game where the effect of death was attempted to have visceral impact. Even for the purposes of the story, I saw anime people be removed from what amounts to a drawn-out game of chess. The art style and other anime-centric conventions made the games so detached from any attempt at providing space for human drama that the stories themselves suffered even for the little they tried to provide. I'm glad you are trying something different, I fear you'll have to battle the art style you've chosen a little bit to get any of these aspects of death and dying to feel strong in your game. Good luck.
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I don't think I've played any tactics game where the effect of death was attempted to have visceral impact.
Fallout Tactics. Unless you meant to say animefantasyclusterbang themed tactics games, in which case no, there aren't :x which would be exactly why it would be so badass if Adarias pulled it off.
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That is so awesome.
Do you mind if I try the style later? (Not gonna edit yours)
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I don't think I've played any tactics game where the effect of death was attempted to have visceral impact.
Never played Vandal Hearts then? The characters positively PISS blood when they die.
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No but I'll try to find it. Fallout Tactics was a good pick too. No anime people in that one.
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Ok, was just wondering :P
i know its going to be an uphill battle, but i enjoy working in this style and frankly i think that im a lot better at this than anything else, so ill have better luck moving away from realism in the soldiers/characters themselves
Final fantasy tactics did a fairly good job of keeping the actual drama going, at least for characters that mattered. With any luck i wont end up with vandal-hearts (rediculous fountain of red pixels followed by a wierd stretch-and-vanishing deal)
as death is concerned, and depending on how much the programmer (if i find one) wants to do, my plan is to have characters that have been wounded to 10% lose the ability to attack, at 0 they lose the ability to move more than 1 square per turn and their normal hp is replaced with a critical bar starting at (50% - excess damage). if the character is healed to 100% of the critical bar, he stands back up with (1 hp + excess healing points). if his critical bar is completely depleted, dead forever. if the excess damage done is more than 50% of your max hp, your are just killed outright, so make sure you dont put weakling troops where they can get smashed, or youll need to hire newer, weaker troops. i was also thinking that owning critically wounded enemies would give no experience, but it would give things like trophies etc. MAYBE it could be made so that wherever a wounded person moves there is a small trail of blood left, because that looked cool when the wounded wiegraf crawled out leaving blood behind before becoming a demon.
Oh and i have a question for the general masses : should the female set have the girls wearing similar uniforms so that calss identification is easy, or should they bbe wearing completely different uniforms to add to the variety?
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In my opinion, no, the female costumes shouldn't be too similar. But, you should still be able to tell what is what. A Knight should look like a Knight, y'know? D: Sorry, kinda getting into stating the obvious. But yeah.
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if his critical bar is completely depleted, dead forever. if the excess damage done is more than 50% of your max hp, your are just killed outright, so make sure you don't put weakling troops where they can get smashed, or you'll need to hire newer, weaker troops
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Any rpg game in which things "die forever" is going to get very annoying. it means unless your particular good or very careful you will need to spend money and effort on replacing troops after every battle. not only that but the fact that in a game like this you will always be looking for the best combination of classes within your team. having "permenint death" in there will really make it hard to do this. and even if you manage to get your desired team together it could be ruined quite easily. Maybe I'm thinking of this game too much like FF:T but as i said, i think permenint death could ruin alot of the fun in this game.
Also,as well as having troops under your command would you also have your own permenant personal character out there? one that can be defeated but never killed?
Apart from the permenant death thing its good to see you getting into the mechanics of the game and i love most of your ideas you've so far (the trailing blood would look so cool). if you need another artist for the game or some one to help with game mechanics id be very very happy to help. ;D
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Fire Emblem is a quite successful franchise with the dead forever theme. I've played a few of the old ones and, while I found the gameplay overall kinda lacking, the dead forever added depth and connection to the characters and story.
Well, anyway, I really like the look of yer sprites and wish ye luck on findin' that programmer. I'd really love to see this come to fruition.
It's nice to know that I'm not the only person to extensively plan out games without the programming knowledge.
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heh, i was just about to mention fire emblem. i think it makes you alot better at the game in general, making it so you either lose a character or get better. of course i suck at keeping them alive.
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I don't think I've played any tactics game where the effect of death was attempted to have visceral impact.
Never played Vandal Hearts then? The characters positively PISS blood when they die.
HAHAHA, I was just about to mention Vandal Hearts. That is the craziest tactical rpg i've ever played.
I just wanted to say how great all of these are. Loving the colors, too. My favorite is the guy up top, left corner, with the dark robe and helmet.
I really hope this becomes a game.
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Not so much an update on the jobs, ive looked at them too long and need to take a break, but i did try out some terrain
these here for crits etc
graham if you like these can be used in the magician/demon project i did them because i was bored ^^
(http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/1092/start0mp.gif)
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It's interesting how heavily your stuff relies on optical mixing. When I zoom up on these tiles, I have trouble recognizing what they represent, but at 100% it's pretty straightfoward. You might want to use a separate tile for the raised areas (like you did with the buttes).
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The only thing I'm seein' in those (beautiful) tiles that I don't really like is that the flat ground tiles seem too cluttered. The sloped tiles that face the viewer seem to be made of more than 50% yellow dirt, but the flat tiles seem to have an equal amount of yellow and brown/green/grey, making it look cluttered and staticy. Other than that everything is real, real, nice.
Have I told you yet that all of your stuff is awesome?
'Cause it is.
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I think the dirt tile's look fine themselves, but their cluttered...ness (as Xion mentioned) becomes a problem in that they detract from the sprites when actually implemented. even muting that darkish grayish tone might help lessen the noise. That said, you've fast become one of my favorites, and your use of colour has given my eyes many a gasm over the past months. Here, again, on the, um, pillars? .. the raised terrain, anyway, the color choise and shading are top notch. The way the grass reads, too, is really quite cool. Gives the impression of thin cover, suiting for the rocky setting (but maybe I'm way off).
Either way, nice. Feel useless giving mindless praise, but it's definitely well earned. ;D
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thanks for the comments everyone :D
@big brother: yeah my work tends to be like that, as most of it is intended to eventually bee seen on a handheld LCD screen like the GBA and i sometimes lose sight of how the big picture looks zoomed in. All of my work intended for handheld projects is done at 800% with a 200% preview screen and a 100% navigator window
@Trem / Xion : i see what you are both saying; and another thing i realised too is that since its completely staticy im not really getting anything out of the 4 different tiles of each ground type. I think when i udate ill address the clutteredness and also cut it down to 2 rock/sand/dirt tiles, possibly cut it down to 2 grass tiles. i also want to put in a mossy tile to transition between the tufty grass and moss and the rock/sand
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I love the progress. The various classes are getting easier to distinguish and the tiles look pretty good, generally. I don't like the weird spots actually. It doesn't look like a dirt tile, more of a monsterskin tile.. =p And you might want to change the colors a bit. From the mockup above you can see the characters are overnicely blended into the scene.
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LOve the tiles. I can pretty much parrot whats already been said so ill keep my mouth shut.
EDIT: I realised how there is a line cutting thhrough the tiles on the far right of the mockup thing.
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graham if you like these can be used in the magician/demon project i did them because i was bored ^^
(http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/1092/start0mp.gif)
I may well do, ta'. Although obviously we dinnae have a concept of height in Lands Of Chaos.
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Ok, looks like its time for an update....:
this has now become 2 different projects! One, Lands of Chaos, I will be working with DrDerekDoctors to make a game that focusses on demons fighting demons. this will use Wizards from the original job tree and this tileset (without the heights):
(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5629/newer2bv.gif)
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The other, Partisan Tactics Battles, will use a job tree like the old one, but with different jobs in each place. Also here is a test of the new tile set and a title screen made by Fil_Razorback, who is doing programming and most of the design concepts. The new final classes are determined by which side of a civil war you choose to fight on, and though they are similar in function, they will look and perform quite a bit differently. WIP job tree is rotated slightly from written version
(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/6339/titre534yh.png) (http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1350/testmap8kz.png)
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5123/3158/320/jobTree.0.png) (http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/2910/newer3bo.gif) (http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/9171/newy1vd.gif)
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I love your wall tile #4 from the left. Something english/medieval comes to mind. Not sure what #1 and #2 are though. I love the way the terrain doesn't look entirely flat.
Nice work! Can't wait to play those projects! ;)
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thanks lick. the first 2 walls are 'natural' rock/dirt ledges
i just remembered, the purpose of the update is that the subject of the eyes has come up again. general question is:
which of these two do you like better? does anyone have anything better that they could suggest?
(http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/3299/newer6gk.gif) (http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/2910/newer3bo.gif)
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I personally like the second set of eyes, though perhaps it would be better to use a less saturated blue.
I'd like to comment on the Partisan Tactics Battles title design, if I may. I think the words "tactics" and "battles" should be on the same side of the sword logo. At first glance I thought that they were clickable choices along with "new game" and "load game".
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I'm very happy that DrDD is partaking, because this means that it's on you to endure and provide art to finish the project. He never fails to deliver.
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About the eyes, the left set stands out alot more, but gives a very cute/cartoony look the characters, the right looks more blended/darker, and gives a slightly more realistic/detailed look. I think the right set would match your game better.
The black helmet on the bottom right sprite reminds me of a gas-mask, I'm assuming its supposed to be an metal helmet?
I second the notion to move 'tactics' and 'battles' onto one side (probably to the right side). It does look clickable as is. I will say the title screen is very good though, I love the emblem, and blue = awesomeness. Add some purple in there to = more awesomeness.
Your game is looking to be pretty sweet; the rock palette, in particular, is very intriging to me. It's good to Fil_Razorback finally got someone to work with hehe. Good luck with your project.
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I'm very happy that DrDD is partaking, because this means that it's on you to endure and provide art to finish the project. He never fails to deliver.
Aw bless. <quietly sweeps partially finished version of Split Personalities under nearest carpet...>
As for the new screens, they look most lovely. Thinking about it, there's no real reason not to use slopey heighty tiles in Lands Of Chaos if you like. It'd purely be a cosmetic thing, but I can't deny it'd look reet gradely (which is good). Love the dude with the tricorney hat. :)
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which of these two do you like better?
I'd choose the left set, mainly because, on the right set, they look like they have makeup or something. Just feels weird to me.
Anyway, all of this is awsome, I wish you good luck for both the projects. I'm just wondering, is there any chance these will run on Mac? That would be really nice :)
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Partisan Tactics Battles is a flash game so it's ok for PC and Mac =)
I don't know how Lands Of Chaos is made ^^
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GP2X (single player only, likely) and PC (single player and multiplayer pbem - also quite likely graphically upgraded to use opengl for effects).
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Ace work!
I prefer the second set of characters (right), since they look a little darker and I think they'll show up better against your bright ground tiles.
I'm loving the new profession tree, and the piracy option is very attractive. My only complaint would be with the lower left part of the tree. The fighter types look very similar to the default, especially at 100%. Perhaps one could have a small helmet, and the full-blown type could have a helmet that encapsulates his whole head, capped with a jaunty plume.
I think that with characters so small, differentiation is clutch.
The title screen is very slick also. Keep up the good work.
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That is incredibly sexy.
When do you think you will have a demo of your game?
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As demos go, i cant really say anything about LoC, but i think i can say PTB will almost definately have a playable demo before the end of summer (correct me if im wrong, Fil)
i was wondering if i could get some feedback on this test text box? Fil is working on a few too that we will probably go with but i also kinda want to get technical feedback as far as the AA work
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4319/texties5al.gif)
the button says "h" which in the game will be confirm (F,G,H are controls because of international differences in keyboards)
font isnt mine, its bold Lucida Consol, which is nice because every character is 8x8/ 22 characters fit to a line, 88 total fit per message
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I like the first - It's bright and easy to read. The second seems a bit dull with less focus on it - could be used if a portrait is at the top and another at the bottom, and that holds the previous said text.. Maybe. The patterns in the corners are very decorative - ;)
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Skull >> The bright and easy-to-read text is for the character who spoke last. When someone speaks after him, his text becomes like the one on the right ^^
I hope I make sense ^^
Adarias >> Your textbox is being so much cooler than my horrible photoshop crap :D
We MUST use this one.
About the demo, I think we will have something before the end of summer :)
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Skull >> The bright and easy-to-read text is for the character who spoke last. When someone speaks after him, his text becomes like the one on the right ^^
I hope I make sense ^^
That's just what I was hoping for ;D I think it'll look rather swish that way.
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Loving the boxes, Adarias. Nice and clean, simple, but still sex on the eyes. As for the AA, I made an edit. I've been AA'ing
far too frequently in the past few months, and I've developed a special love for it, so...
(http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/Edits/textarias.PNG)
Anyway, my explanatory skills are... well, frankly, quite useless, and I think the edit conveys the point more clearly than I'd be able to.
Basically, I cleaned up some blur. I think, unless I misread the forms you were going for, I cleaned up the shapes, too, as some of them look a bit blobby. I know the 4x bits are a kinda redundant, what with the zoom feature, but I thought I'd throw 'em in for clarity's (?) sake. :P
Beautiful boxes, like I said, and, if I haven't already mentioned it, beautiful work on this whole project.
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Tremulant, I think it's supposed to be arrow-shaped. Your edit actually makes it so rounded that it lost its shape, although it points out that there is a need to retouch that part of the image.
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well, Ive been buried for a while under a mountain of other work, but the male job class standing forms for Partisan are complete now (though notice i didnt say finished - i am waiting for your crits!)
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5123/3158/320/jobTree.0.png)
(http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3821/jobsgifyl5.gif)
the jobs there follow the same course, only slightly rotated to fit the images better. it shouldnt be too hard to figure out what job paths have which names
a couple are asymmetric, but the only one i bothered to show both views of was the swordmaster, since the cloak over one arm is a very obvious piece of clothing
PS: am i the only one that can't use the zoom function? or is it gone? it was really nice to be able to use that
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I cant user the forum zoom feature - but for all us Firefox users there is a zoom feature.
Awesome job - no crits really.
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Ragnarog stile :) Great work.
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hmm.....well thanks to the few who posted, but id really like some crits on these tbh, i know there are issues.
perhaps i am flogging a dead topic, but heres the most recent update:
(http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/572/jobslayoutze8.png)
not all the hats are on, and the lower half of it has the wrong hats (the hats have all 4 directions, but only horizontal flips are shown here), but it doesnt really matter since this is just the outfits (and since all characters wont wear hats, or they will always wear the same hat in some cases, but either way not changing with job type, is better perhaps to see them without)
C+C ?
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Forkin' 'ell! That's a lorra' soldiers. I need to get Wizball out of the way so I can start on coding this instead of just having ideas.
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They aren't visually distinct enough. Individually, they are quite exceptional and I applaud your technical prowess completely. However, putting a whole bunch of them next to each other, and I honestly have a hard time telling the apart. If you put all the Final Fantasy Tactics characters on a sheet like that, there would be an immediate and obvious distinction between each of the units, and even when a bunch of them are clumped together on the board, you can still separate them at sight. With yours, I'm having trouble figuring out which sprites are supposed to be the same character classes, and probably couldn't connect the fronts with the backs with a map.
My recommendation is to not put as much emphasis on what they are wearing, and instead give each unit type a one or two color scheme - never have two hats the same color, since that is where the identification is going to be most focused. And when picking your colors, you've got a very muted low saturation thing going on, which is going to make that difficult. You want their primary color to leap off the screen at a glance, as it is absolutely the most fundamental and important aspect of their character. Your composite images shouldn't look like a mashing of blues-purples-oranges, but you should be big self-organizing chunks of a single color.
It may seem counter to what you want to do, but make a little sample image where you put maybe nine guys standing in a square on your isometric map. If you can't instantly tell which units are which, as I suspect will be the case, you need make special effort to change that. Go check out the graphics for a Nippon Ichi game or any other Tactics game and you will undoubtedly see how important distinct coloration is to these types of games.
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sqorgar, i can see where you are coming from, and the identification issue is real. the hats, not shown here on the away-facers, will hopefully help a lot. Im most likely going to tweek any number of things before the project is done, too.
but there are several things that you havent rally taken into acount.
Firstly, the uniforms must all be the same color in one army, because they are professional soldiers fighting under the name of the person whos personal heradry they are boasting, in this case red and blue. this is mostly because when i play a tactics game, my first question is not "is this guy a wizard?" but rather, "is this guy mine, his, his, his, or just in a very bad pot?" the men fighting with you will all wear your colors, but the men fighting under an npc will wear his colors. rag-tag groups, such as will occasionally be encountered, will have randomly generated colors for each mans outfit, making them appear as though they are not in uniform(which in that case is proper). to add to the individuality, every man in the game has a randomly generated combination of skin and hair colors (not pictured in the example) as well as hair types, making it very easy to find a familiar individual on the field
Secondly, several classes look the same because they are embellishments upon the preceding class, and anyone who is playing the game will know exactly what job types build into which. There are, in reality, 8 job types, with 4 lower levels, 8 regular levels, and 8(16) master levels with each pair being roughly equal in strenth and duty (though with slightly differing skill sets based on their creed). For example, the warrior, knight, paladin, and crusader are all hard-hitting straight-forward attackers, and this is rather easy to see in the set i think, you look for guys who have armor and who may also have shields. At the very least, the player will know that when they have a warrior, a guy that looks an awful lot like their warrior will most likely be or act a lot like their warrior. Even at the most basic level, you will still be able to guess, based on costume, which person is going to hit, which is going to shoot, and which are going to be mainly support, and if you cannot do this, please let me know. Even in the case that a person cannot tell at all what someone is supposed to do, they can always hover over the character and the information will tell them.
third, you say put nine men out? at least for this game, nine men is a crazy number for one team. most teams will have a leader, between 2 and 5 soldiers, and 0-5 Constructs (which are robots for the mechanists, demons for the alchemists). i also tried what you said, with far too many soldiers, and i could instantly identify them even from behind (when they all had hats on), and even though im the artist and have looked at them for a while, i doubt the player would have any trouble either once they have played the game for enough hours to have different job types.
anyhoo, i your taking the time, but much of what you said simply doesnt apply to this project so far as i can see. perhaps i am wrong in thinking this?
also, does anybody have any crits about the pixelart itself, aside from the design?
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When they face away...the part of their head to the extremity which they are facing looks like
a) a giant nose
b) a wierdly lit ear
c) or a really pointy cheek.
Since I can already see they have ears just behind that spot, I can rule that out, and I'm sure you weren't going for that to be a nose, because even from the front they lack noses. So it's a cheek. But pointy. I think it may be due to the fact that the outmost pixel is a hilight, making it stand out from the rest of the head even more.
Also from behind, the topmost, second from the left has a wierd butt. That hilight makes it look like a single, central cheek. :-\
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Firstly, the uniforms must all be the same color in one army, because they are professional soldiers fighting under the name of the person whos personal heradry they are boasting, in this case red and blue. this is mostly because when i play a tactics game, my first question is not "is this guy a wizard?" but rather, "is this guy mine, his, his, his, or just in a very bad pot?" the men fighting with you will all wear your colors, but the men fighting under an npc will wear his colors. rag-tag groups, such as will occasionally be encountered, will have randomly generated colors for each mans outfit, making them appear as though they are not in uniform(which in that case is proper). to add to the individuality, every man in the game has a randomly generated combination of skin and hair colors (not pictured in the example) as well as hair types, making it very easy to find a familiar individual on the field
Hmm.... I don't think that's going to work particularly well in practice. I don't think I've seen a series of sprites that have been this hard to tell apart, and given their size and muted colors, it's going to be a very confusing battlefield indeed.
Thinking through all the different tactical games I've played (which is all of them), color and shape are by far the most important determining factors - the ones where the colors were all the same (Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Super Robot Taisen) all had very unique and discernable shapes to make up for it - they were also overhead, tile based games where units don't overlap. Your guys are all built on the same base, and if you blacked them in, their outlines would be almost identical in most cases. You just don't have the variance for shape alone to matter. Think Chess. White versus Black, but the individual units have extremely different silhouettes.
third, you say put nine men out? at least for this game, nine men is a crazy number for one team. most teams will have a leader, between 2 and 5 soldiers, and 0-5 Constructs (which are robots for the mechanists, demons for the alchemists). i also tried what you said, with far too many soldiers, and i could instantly identify them even from behind (when they all had hats on), and even though im the artist and have looked at them for a while, i doubt the player would have any trouble either once they have played the game for enough hours to have different job types.
Why don't you post it? I've certainly had experiences in the past where my pixel perfect knowledge of my own art was not quite shared by the average person.
anyhoo, i your taking the time, but much of what you said simply doesnt apply to this project so far as i can see.
That's entirely fair, and I'm by no means trying to push you around or anything. I do have some experience in this area, and thought I'd point out a problem I've had to correct at great cost in the past. By all means continue in the manner you see best, and I do hope you'll continue posting follow ups :)
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Personally i don't think they are too hard to differentiate from each other. The teams should be very easy to tell apart, and in a strategy game, you have the time to see who's what. In fire emblem i'll even click R to find out more about the characters when i highlight them, even if i do know who it is. It takes no less than 2 seconds.
I'm only saying this because Sqorgar is making a very strong argument against the current setup and style, of which i think is fine and needent have a significant change. There'll always be some who will find it hard to see a clear difference between each character (at first glance), but i think with these games, there's tonnes of time to learn what each look like closely as you continue through the game - and soon it would become second nature. Perhaps.
I really like this so far Adarias. I think Xion put up some good points in that the eye on the back of the character looks more like a crevace in the face (especially because of the neutral grey background).
Blah blah blah hope that made sense.
~
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Personally i don't think they are too hard to differentiate from each other. The teams should be very easy to tell apart, and in a strategy game, you have the time to see who's what. In fire emblem i'll even click R to find out more about the characters when i highlight them, even if i do know who it is. It takes no less than 2 seconds.
Game graphics have one function, and that is to convery information. It is not uncommon for game graphics to fail spectacularly, like having an enemy that blends in with a background or invisible walls. When games try to put style over function, you end up with lots of little annoyances. Those annoyances add up. For instance, if it takes you a full two seconds to locate which of your units is a thief - how many times are you going to do that in a game? How many times per level? How many times per turn? Trust me, you'll be checking the same units over and over again just to recognize them to the point where you either become totally frustrated and quit, or you completely rely on this secondary system for information that you might as well not even have graphics.
You have to trust me on this one. This isn't something you can just get out of with excuses. This stuff has teeth and it will bite you on the ass and tear away a chunk of meat the size of a bowling ball.
I'm only saying this because Sqorgar is making a very strong argument against the current setup and style, of which i think is fine and needent have a significant change.
This isn't a style issue at all. It's a character design and function issue. It doesn't matter how technically capable you are, because you are aiming at something beyond mere brush strokes. You are aiming for recognizability and for units that you can emote with. From a functional level, these guys are too similar looking to tell apart, even at 3x and higher resolution. At a character design level, they look like popsicle sticks with different jackets on. Both of these things together are going to make for a particularly pretty, but completely devoid of personality game. It's going to look like a generic me-too game without a unique thought in its head. I don't know. Maybe that's exactly what it won't be, but nobody is ever going to bother to check it out except for the people he personally asks because it's going to be frustrating as all hell to play, and has all the personality of a made for tv movie. If you want to make a game that people will play and characters people will connect to, it takes a special effort.
Now, I can't help with the personality thing. Well, I can. I have a lot of experience in that area as well. It's just that discussion would not be short and that's not what he asked for. But he posted a bunch of characters and my critique is that I couldn't tell them apart if you drew circles and arrows on the sheet - and believe me, I'm probably the best bet you have in that area given my video game and pixel art backgrounds. That's going to really fuck up the game big time, which is sad because they are technically quite proficiant creations and I can see the hard work that's been put into each and every one of them. It's just that some of that work was wasted or misspent, and the end result is technically great and nothing more.
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Okay, alrighty then. Just to note when i said 'setup and style' i just didn't have any better words to use. I think i got the point across though.
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but nobody is ever going to bother to check it out except for the people he personally asks because it's going to be frustrating as all hell to play, and has all the personality of a made for tv movie. If you want to make a game that people will play and characters people will connect to, it takes a special effort.
That's a very large assumption you're making. Even if everyone can't tell the characters apart, this is a turn based stratgy where the player has the time to find out. And seriously, once around the map looking what characters your enemy has and you won't forget their positions or classes. I often find it hard to tell the difference between classes on final fantasy tactics but i'm still addicted to that. Characters don't need to connect with the player when you have large numbers. There are no main characters to build up a storyline or plot with. it's just make a good army that'll kill the other guys army.
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Here's a way you could make them more recognizable without changing the shapes drastically (although that's still the best answer):
Make the details on the characters go simple to complex as their class becomes more advanced. For example, the basic low level grunt could have larger areas of plain color with fewer accessories (really exaggerate this -- remember, gameplay comes first) while the master level guy could have intricate accessories (feather cap, baldric, armor pieces, etc.). The player might not be able to distinguish the a unit's class from a distance, but she can tell whether it's a weak or strong unit.
As it is, I think you're going to have the most problems when a unit is facing NE/NW, because several of the units are differentiated by a non-intuitive design on the back of the cape. I realize the hats are not on those sprites yet, but I'm having trouble seeing the progression of hats. My gut reaction was that the stronger the unit was, the bigger and more elaborate the hat, but I'm not seeing that. The sizes seem to vary irrelevant of class or rank.
When I zoom in, the sprites are quite competently drawn, but your average player isn't going to understand that beyond the initial visual impact.
Regardless, great work so far. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.
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EDIT: I decided this post was a little too brutally honest, and not in a good way.
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Game graphics have one function, and that is to convery information.
Actually, to be aesthetically pleasing while conveying information.
And Adarias gave enough in-game reasons for them to be distinct and easily-recognisable. Looking at the fronts, the hats make them easily distinguashable, and I would assume it would be so with the back views as well.
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Actually, to be aesthetically pleasing while conveying information.
So, I guess, one out of two ain't bad?
And Adarias gave enough in-game reasons for them to be distinct and easily-recognisable. Looking at the fronts, the hats make them easily distinguashable, and I would assume it would be so with the back views as well.
I'm still waiting for a tight "group photo" to make sure. He said a lot of things, some will help, some won't. Only way to make sure.
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I'm still waiting for a tight "group photo" to make sure. He said a lot of things, some will help, some won't. Only way to make sure.
persistant little bugger, arent you? two days is not at all a long time for someone to go without reading a forum imo. Also, if i were you, i would refrain from judging an entire game by an early set of generic soldier sprites which does not include monsters, constructs, or characters. to say that this is without a unique thought is fairly insulting and entirely unfounded and unnecessary.
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4127/testbb7.png)
again, even without the hats, i find no difficultly telling you which job type they belong to, and the specific job class within that type comes just as readily
also about that picture, the tiles and objects are very much WIP atm, i was wary of showing them at this early stage, but i think if it is understood they are WIP and missing a huge number of tiles (like transitions etc) then its fine. feel free to critique as such, in fact id encourage you all to because it helps me out a lot to know what the issues are sooner :P
big brother - everything you said makes sense, and im going to try and work towards that. you are right, the symbols on the cloaks are more or less meaningless so far, only the shield on the sentinel (denoting his status as a defense soldier) and the faction badgers (the cog on the mechanist Crusader, and the chevron + circle on the alchemist gunner) actually are related to anything. You hit on something big here too - my novice looks fancier than some of the later classes. im thinking i may en up taking the common clothes and putting the colors on them, and making the current novice into the Marksman, which currently IS too similar to the sniper class that it becomes.
Xion - you were right, taking off that highlight makes it look a lot better. i also am tweeking the but a bit, since i realise that when i preview fullscreen (a little less than 3x zoom here) it is easy to see, but in the window mode it gets lumped together.
both of your comments will be addressed in the next update of the classes, which should come sometime this weekend or even possibly today
also, this illustrates a point i tried to make earlier, i missed a label but i think actually that you can figure out how it works pretty easily:
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7360/groupscz6.gif)
these groupings seem rediculously clear to me and the other designers, but if it is not so with you, please chime in, and be sure to explain what and how so! i dont have any troubles, and i cant try and solve your problems without real examples
just one more song before i go: i wish people wouldnt edit out posts, regardless of content! i wanted to chew out i think it was werewolf (sorry if im wrong!) who did that earlier in the week. If its too harsh, the worst i can do is try and make a counterpoint, no? also, the fact that i agrue against something, or even if i consider it irrelevant to the task at hand, that doesnt make it any less valid as a statement and i could be damned well WRONG about something, especially if your opinion is echoed. if you think something say it, even if you later think better of it. as it is, im wondering what it was you said, because theres a good chance that it was useful. i dont suppose you logged it? if you really feel that it is too harsh or hot for a public forum, feel free to send it to me in a PM or Email.
anyhoo, thanks all for dropping by this thread, im very hopefull for this project and with luck it will turn out sometihng good :D
for more information on the project, please go to: http://partisan-tb.blogspot.com/
for those like me who can only barely understand french, go to http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://partisan-tb.blogspot.com/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://partisan-tb.blogspot.com/%26hl%3Den%26hs%3Df92%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official
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Adarias: for the slope tiles, I suggest you make the east sides quite, quite darker than you have them now. They're the same lightness on top and on the side right now, and this creates such a visual problem of telling what is slope and what is ground and what is wall.
I have no problem telling what sprite is what class, personally, if I look at it for a few seconds, and I don't see why this game should read in miliseconds at all. It's a strategy game, you can take your time. You don't have to take your time every time you see it, just a little at the beginning. I don't see the problem there.
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I agree with Helm, they are distinct enough. Different classes in FFT don't look that much different either among same races. :y:
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I like the way the classes look, and it's easy to tell them apart, especially with the hats.
Will the game be available in english, though?
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persistant little bugger, arent you? two days is not at all a long time for someone to go without reading a forum imo. Also, if i were you, i would refrain from judging an entire game by an early set of generic soldier sprites which does not include monsters, constructs, or characters. to say that this is without a unique thought is fairly insulting and entirely unfounded and unnecessary.
Okay, let's start with the "bugger" thing. I'm not sure you know me well enough to comment on my predilection for sodomy.
Second, I comment on what I see, how I see it. If that changes later, by all means, I'll be the first to comment on it. However, after almost two dozen character sprites, of which "generic" is the perfect description... if a leopard hasn't changed his spots, it's fairly safe to assume he won't.
again, even without the hats, i find no difficultly telling you which job type they belong to, and the specific job class within that type comes just as readily
What? You call that a group shot? By golly, they are all evenly spread apart!! Let's see some actual combat situations, where they are close enough to lick each other's balls! Heavy melee characters tend to spend a lot of time in melee range, don't you think? Luckily, I'm not on my laptop now, so I can present my own representation:
(http://www.squidi.net/temp/group-shot.png)
Can you honestly look at that picture and tell me what each unit is, and whether or not they are in an attacking position, being threatened by their neighbors, or within magic range of another particular unit? And I even fudged it, because I was lazy, and all the characters are pointing the same direction. You mix in different facing, and it will appear an even greater visual nightmare. Perhaps even worse is that this image all features characters on different levels, such that their entire bodies are clearly visible. If they were all on the same plane, they would obscure each other significantly... let's see how much:
(http://www.squidi.net/temp/group-shot3.png)
THAT is unplayable.
Let's compare it to FFTA:
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ffta/screens/ffta1001.jpg
Do you see how the game uses a very obvious outline around the characters (it doesn't use hard black on the inside) to make them stand out? Such that when you've got a bunch of characters with different silhouettes, it's pronounced. The individual units each have unique color schemes as well to further separate them out in a group.
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ffta/screens/ffta1046.jpg
Here you can see that each character has three colors - head, torso, legs. These are not dull, muted colors. They are vibrant and significant, and there's infrequent or no mixing of warm and cool colors. Each character has a unique scheme - and these aren't even characters that show up later in the game.
http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ff/ffta/screens/ffta_10.jpg
Here you do see warm and cool colors mixing, but the reason that is happening is to emphasize the solid color hats. If these characters were wearing blue capes (or the same shades of orange, purple, and blue) , then the hat would become a useless blob. The artist knew exactly where the characters would stand in relation to each other, and made a special effort to color them in such a way that, if their hats were important, that the hats were the first thing you see and that there was no way for the hats to be confused, obscured, or otherwise invisible at a glance.
also about that picture, the tiles and objects are very much WIP atm, i was wary of showing them at this early stage, but i think if it is understood they are WIP and missing a huge number of tiles (like transitions etc) then its fine. feel free to critique as such, in fact id encourage you all to because it helps me out a lot to know what the issues are sooner :P
(http://www.squidi.net/temp/group-shot2.png)
You aren't missing tiles. You are missing depth. Look at this picture. Can you actually tell me what is going on here, even having drawn the tiles? You've got walls blending into floors. That, what I assume is a ramp, thing in the middle is completely indistinguishable from it's own side wall and the connecting side wall - and doesn't really connect to the land tile at the top either. Also, the ramp would not be completely obscured by that tiny little half wall, so it shouldn't be shaded completely itself.
You really need to create some definition here. You can do this by strengthing your shading colors, using better judgement on what to shade, or simply use different colors altogether for ramps so there is no change for them to disappear from sight.
just one more song before i go: i wish people wouldnt edit out posts, regardless of content! i wanted to chew out i think it was werewolf (sorry if im wrong!) who did that earlier in the week. If its too harsh, the worst i can do is try and make a counterpoint, no? also, the fact that i agrue against something, or even if i consider it irrelevant to the task at hand, that doesnt make it any less valid as a statement and i could be damned well WRONG about something, especially if your opinion is echoed. if you think something say it, even if you later think better of it. as it is, im wondering what it was you said, because theres a good chance that it was useful. i dont suppose you logged it? if you really feel that it is too harsh or hot for a public forum, feel free to send it to me in a PM or Email.
You have to understand that when I'm brutally honest, the emphasis is on brutal - especially this time. I think there comes a time when an artist hits a place where they are strong enough to hear certain things unfiltered. I made a judgement call and decided that you wouldn't take it particularly well. I don't mean to be like that, and lord knows I've made a couple enemies giving critiques. I just don't know any other way to do it.
edit: changed to use links instead of hotlinking FFTA images. Do the copy and paste thing.
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Sqorgar: I am pretty sure that Adarias was not implying that you practice sodomy. How you made that cognitive leap, I will never know. At least I hope I will never know.
All: Unless this game plays RADICALLY different from other tactics/strategy titles, this entire argument is pointless. As character's turns come up, a dialog box of some type is always displayed, showing information for that character that is sometimes not otherwise readily available - like hit points, magic points, charge time, etc etc. These boxes ALWAYS include the player class or job in large easy to read letters. These games aren't like RTS games, where you have to be able to pick out all your units instantly and on a time-based scale. The characters could all be big gray boxes, and it would have no affect on the core gameplay.
Adarias: Now, that said, I do think that the bandanna/small-hat-wearing classes are the hardest to differentiate. The larger hats and helmets are VERY easy to read, but there are a few characters from the light support classes all around the circle that do run together a bit for me, speaking as someone who has followed this thread SOME but certainly not studied the classes. To be fair, the idle animations MAY clear up a lot of that confusion, because they will convey even more information about the player's costume. But as they stand, I think the smaller, less unique headwear is hard to identify. SO, if this IS a major concern or interest despite its lack of affect on the gameplay, I think the bandanna-type characters could probably use a little love!
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Sq: Although Adarias may have skewed his example in his favor, you've only skewed your examples in yours. Adarias already said that there would only be about 6 units on the map (besides constructs) on each team at one time. In yours there is 16 or more all colored to be on one team.
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Sqorgar - bugger, at least in the sense i know it, does not connote homosexuality, i had no idea there was even the vaguest of connections. furthermore i did not mean it in any sort of derrogatory manner, so i appologize for offense it caused.
also, i wasnt aware of skewing the shot in my favor, it was my understanding that you asked for 9 men on an isometric map, and i gave you a shot with 10 crammed into a rediculously small map, though now i do realise that what you wanted was something a bit more specific from that which you asked for. you also, as darien has pointed out, have clearly skewd the shot in such a way that i think did your point more harm than good, by cramming in many more soldiers together than there ever would be in that tight an area, and none of them are characters or constructs. as far as i can see, you havent really made a point with those images
Can you honestly look at that picture and tell me what each unit is, and whether or not they are in an attacking position, being threatened by their neighbors, or within magic range of another particular unit?
yes...i can
Heavy melee characters tend to spend a lot of time in melee range, don't you think?
and, apparently, so do riflemen?
You have to understand that when I'm brutally honest, the emphasis is on brutal - especially this time. I think there comes a time when an artist hits a place where they are strong enough to hear certain things unfiltered. I made a judgement call and decided that you wouldn't take it particularly well. I don't mean to be like that, and lord knows I've made a couple enemies giving critiques. I just don't know any other way to do it.
Helm I think puts it best when he says, "I am not your little sister."
Helm - thats an excellent suggestion and one i think will follow, i was striving for flow and organic shapes, but im well aware that i havent taken readability into account yet, and it reads badly atm. My old tiles showed space much better, and i plan to draw upon what i did with them as well as people's suggestions. Its a very early mockup to be sure :P
Sherman - yes, the game so far as i know is going to be made in english and french, and possibly (though not planned at the moment) in other languages as well.
Adam - yes, the smaller hats have thusfar given me the most trouble creatively.
If anybody has ideas for different hats or different cape badges, please voice them. Pixelopolis/Pixelation is already going into the "special thanks" portion for all of the suggestions ive gotten :D
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How about a warlock/mage? It may be a bit more Warcraft than FFT, but it will be fun to create and adds more variance.
About hats - I say make a man in a top-hat, for all us british people.
Serisouly these are damn sexy, I wish i could sprite like this >:(
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I haven't read up everything on the topic yet, I'll admit that. None the less, I thought I'd point out something that's been bothering me about some of the characters.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/SnakemanEXE/Isometric.gif)
Edits on top. I just felt some of 'em were a little flat of out of perspective. The crack in the cloak on the right characters seemed to stray to much to the right in my eyes, but as you can see in my edit (the one on the far right) the feet look out of perspective then, so I'm a little puzzled by that at the moment. Can't remake the feet at this point, so the edit might not be necessary. *shrug*
Oh, just ignore the Link. I'm drugged on Twilight Princess :D
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How about a warlock/mage? It may be a bit more Warcraft than FFT, but it will be fun to create and adds more variance.
there is no simple Mage class in the game because the main story revolves around a conflict between the alchemists, a tradition that has existed for centuries, and the mechanists who believe in the independant powers of science and engineering
here is an explanation of the types of "magic" as best i can give it:
mechanical - this is not really even "magic," the processes being entirely scientific in nature.
spells = tools. flamethrowers, watercannons, etc are used to generate effects. my personal favorite is the Spanner: a basic tool thrown for non-elemental damage
constructs = clockwork soldiers. essentially robots, they are connected to a character or soldier by a control band that picks up on impulses originating from the wearer's brain. the farther they are from the wearer, the weaker the signal waves, so the weaker the construct.
alchemical - this magic type involves the harnessing of demons that reside within all things.
spells = runecards. demon spirits, such as fire demons, water demons, etc, are trapped within each rune and then released to generate effects.
constructs = summoned demons. these demons who are actually manifested in the temporal plane because of a direct connection to the host via a talisman or other charm. as the demon gets farther away from the bearer of the charm, its connection to the temporal plane is weakened, and it loses strength accordingly
there also will be certain character who harness Divine magics, which feed off the soul of the wielder and require years of spiritual exercise and training in order to use. technically, all of these spells are considered skills, as they do not require the use of an item to be performed. the divine are able to project their spirit a short way beyond their bodies, which functions similarly to a construct.
hope that clears things up :P
also, a top hat might be fun, but id have difficulty trying to work it into the job classes? we're looking at effectively the 14-1600's with steampunk/da vinciesque machines and magic. if you can figure a way to work it in, definately post :P
snake, thats intersting, and ill definately do some mild reworking to make it work better, particularly the heads, thanks for the input. your link is 1337 :P
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Well perhaps you can have lords/dukes, people who are highest in the ranks and pretty much the control of the forces.
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my main concern is that top hats were only made staring around 1800, but what do people think? should i worry about anachronism in a game set in a renaissance-era island kingdom full of demons, robots, and pirates? so far, the doctor is the only job class that has really busted out of the era
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Maybe give the top hats to the doctors... They could be like the gentlemen doctors of the Victorian era. If it's the one class that doesn't fit, you might as well push it farther. Besides, the top hat would make them easily identifiable. For lower-ranked doctors, you could use a bowler hat instead.
After reading your descriptions, I doubt you should be worried about anachronism or even realism in this game.
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After reading your descriptions, I doubt you should be worried about anachronism or even realism in this game.
I don't agree. It's one thing to add machines and expect the player to accept it as a fantasy world with machines, that's one thing. It's been done before anyways. But if you just decide anything goes, it will be challenging the player's ability to take the game at least a little bit seriously. Top hats seem borderline of what I would be comfortable seeing, at least that's how I feel at the moment. Anything beyond that and I begin to lose interest.
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Sqorgar - bugger, at least in the sense i know it, does not connote homosexuality, i had no idea there was even the vaguest of connections. furthermore i did not mean it in any sort of derrogatory manner, so i appologize for offense it caused.
I've been called worse. Still, now you know. "bugger" means to sodomize (not necessarily a man, it's not homosexual) and depending on who you are talking to, can be a very vulgar word up there with the f-word in the US.
also, i wasnt aware of skewing the shot in my favor, it was my understanding that you asked for 9 men on an isometric map, and i gave you a shot with 10 crammed into a rediculously small map, though now i do realise that what you wanted was something a bit more specific from that which you asked for. you also, as darien has pointed out, have clearly skewd the shot in such a way that i think did your point more harm than good, by cramming in many more soldiers together than there ever would be in that tight an area, and none of them are characters or constructs. as far as i can see, you havent really made a point with those image
I exaggerated the image to make the point. You have to design for a worst case scenario, and with the tile spaces you use, the worst case scenario is when units are lined up diagonally, such that they overlap each other. I could've used the same point using only four characters. And what was the number of units you said there would be? Six to ten with additional constructs? Even with just six per side (twelve total), it is easily conceivable that a situation could arise where they are clumped together in a brutal melee battle. Yes, it is an absolute worst case scenario, but it's not as exaggerated as you think.
You see, the correct way to look at that isn't "something like that probably won't happen", but instead "what am I doing to make sure that won't happen?"
and, apparently, so do riflemen?
A rifleman has never been surrounded on all sides by melee characters?
Helm I think puts it best when he says, "I am not your little sister."
If I thought that you could handle what I said with dignity and grace, I wouldn't have removed it.
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there is no simple Mage class in the game because the main story revolves around a conflict between the alchemists, a tradition that has existed for centuries, and the mechanists who believe in the independant powers of science and engineering
here is an explanation of the types of "magic" as best i can give it:
mechanical - this is not really even "magic," the processes being entirely scientific in nature.
spells = tools. flamethrowers, watercannons, etc are used to generate effects. my personal favorite is the Spanner: a basic tool thrown for non-elemental damage
constructs = clockwork soldiers. essentially robots, they are connected to a character or soldier by a control band that picks up on impulses originating from the wearer's brain. the farther they are from the wearer, the weaker the signal waves, so the weaker the construct.
alchemical - this magic type involves the harnessing of demons that reside within all things.
spells = runecards. demon spirits, such as fire demons, water demons, etc, are trapped within each rune and then released to generate effects.
constructs = summoned demons. these demons who are actually manifested in the temporal plane because of a direct connection to the host via a talisman or other charm. as the demon gets farther away from the bearer of the charm, its connection to the temporal plane is weakened, and it loses strength accordingly
there also will be certain character who harness Divine magics, which feed off the soul of the wielder and require years of spiritual exercise and training in order to use. technically, all of these spells are considered skills, as they do not require the use of an item to be performed. the divine are able to project their spirit a short way beyond their bodies, which functions similarly to a construct.
hope that clears things up :P
also, a top hat might be fun, but id have difficulty trying to work it into the job classes? we're looking at effectively the 14-1600's with steampunk/da vinciesque machines and magic. if you can figure a way to work it in, definately post :P
snake, thats intersting, and ill definately do some mild reworking to make it work better, particularly the heads, thanks for the input. your link is 1337 :P
Wow, this is really weird, i myself am all very interested in the whole Steampunk/magic/tophats kinda of thing and myself have always wanted to make a game like FFTA with that as its theme (alchemists and all)... its like you've had the near exacted same idea as i have... thats kinda annoying actually. Not that I'm attacking you or anything, its just... hrm. weird.
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If I thought that you could handle what I said with dignity and grace, I wouldn't have removed it.
I hope you realise that a statement like this, and quite a few others you have made, is not a sign of the aforementioned qualities
(http://www.gamerankings.com/screens4/589678/4.jpg)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/1961/fftcrowdrf8.png)(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6136/fftcrowdjo3.png)(http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/psx/a/vandal-05.png)
(http://www.squidi.net/temp/group-shot3.png)
so far, the only point youve made is that crowds are more difficult to see, which is common sense. the images youve provided of my guys in a crowd are still easily readable to me, though they do take longer to see than when characters are spread out.
making these characters different colors and shapes will not solve that problem in our project or any project
do you have a solution to this problem in mind?
Meta - id love to hear your ideas, and the story is in early enough stages to add stuff that i think is good. PM me or contact me over AIM if yould like to give ideas, youll be credited as an assistant writer/designer if our visions are close enough to each other's to be used
Big Brother - im going to see how that works out, update will have further details
Darien - I share your concerns really. Tophats do seem to push the envelope, because i associate them with the post-napoleonic era, where the other things in the game have kept within a much earlier time, and the robots/magic is not out of the ordinary in a fantasy game
HOWEVER this does not mean that tophats do not belong in this game, though i think bowlers are a bit out of the question really, popularized in the late 1800s if im not mistaken, they really belong to a different setting
but about the tophat, this has given me an idea. the kingdom in partisan is supposed to be bustling, full of people. My idea is that everyone who wants their own minor character in the game, can have one if they like. Feron, this means you :P
here is the form:
*INCLUDE A CROQUIS OF THE CHARACTER HERE SHOWING FRONT AND BACK VIEWS*
Name:
Personality:
Social Background:
Quest offered (if applicable):
Combat style / job class counterpart (if applicable):
Size and type of town likely to be found:
Stationary or Travelling?:
Additional Comments:
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That would be an awesome idea,
I only kidding about tophats to begin with, but then i had a pretty cool vision of a sprite in this style wearing a tophat.
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This game sounds incredible from your description - just the kinda thing i'd be obsessed over. :-*
I do think tophats would be a nice thing to see, even once it would be quite cool. But i doubt they would really work on any of the current classes. I was actually thinking of NPC's, and i think your idea is pretty much that. :y:
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Some more hat ideas:
Pope Hat (http://www.theconnection.org/content/2004/05/21/pope_hat173.jpg)
Fez (http://www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com/acatalog/fez-lg.jpg)
Tricorn (http://www.civicrobes.com/Images/Robes/Accessories/Tricorn.gif)
Floppy-Ass Beret (http://www.fineartprintsondemand.com/images/prints/400/30289.jpg)
Head Wrap Thingy (http://www.pbase.com/eharel/image/19920885)
Head Knob Whatchits (http://www.pbase.com/eharel/image/21793663)
I'm Sure There Were A Lot Of White Samurai (http://www.pbase.com/eharel/image/19920821)
FFT-Chemist Stylin (http://www.pbase.com/eharel/image/25373692)
Old School (http://www.pbase.com/eharel/image/26930578)
No Idea (http://www.pbase.com/eharel/image/53020848)
Hope these help man!
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If you do have a tophatted character in, some of the characters could make fun of his hat, thus furtherly pointing out the fact that it's out of place, and in one instance he could be like: "Laugh now, but it is the fashion of the future, comrades!" ... In a completely non-communistic way. :P
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adam - thanks for that, was already planning to have the floppy-ass hats on some of the characters :P and the foreigners sporting things like turbans and fez(es)? but the rest on the list are very helpfull ^^ i just need to find places for them ....thanks!
xion - lol...that gives me an idea....we already have anime guys that look a bit like girls, crayola-colored environments, pirates, and robots, so why not bring in someone like the traveller from HG Well's The Time Machine? HE could wear a top hat, and wed have even more of the typical cliches covered (we dont yet have spacemen, a long-lost civilization, or underage whores, but were getting there) :P
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By croquis do you mean a pixel sketch or any type of sketch?
Also, Adam, those 'head wrap things' are called turbans.
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I hope you realise that a statement like this, and quite a few others you have made, is not a sign of the aforementioned qualities
Geez, just leave it alone. Seriously, if this is how you act when I DON'T say something mean, imagine what a pain in the ass you'd be if I did.
Fine, you want to know what I said? I said this project probably wouldn't ever get past the demo stage, if that, and the only people who would care would be you and people who like Final Fantasy Tactics - but not because they liked your game. Because they liked Final Fantasy Tactics. Because you are designing your characters and game around what you think Final Fantasy Tactics should be. You aren't making a game. You are making a simulacrum - something which resembles a game only in the fact that a game is what you are copying. It's an emulation of a game. A facade. There isn't a lick of individuality in your work, and while you are technically competent at pixel art, the world wouldn't shed a tear over your game or your art. It wouldn't even freaking notice it enough to care. You are making a crappy game because it is nothing more than a self centered vanity project. You don't want to make a good game. You want to make a game like Final Fantasy Tactics so that you can pretend that you have the same talent. This is fan art.
I removed that post for two reasons. The first is that it is too honest. I can say that stuff about most amateur projects, and indeed much of the art on this board. It's an easy thing to say because it is almost always true. People learn to trace before they learn to draw. I thought saying it out loud was extremely cruel and discouraging - which it is or isn't depending on where you are, but it's going to sting like hell no matter what. The second reason I removed it is because you weren't going to take it well at all. My guess is that you are going to get extremely defensive - I mean EXTREMELY defensive - and take it really personally. I removed my comments to prevent that. You got defensive and took THAT personally anyway, so I imagine this will be much worse.
But let me follow it up with something. You ARE a technically competent pixel artist. Where you need to go next isn't to become a better pixel artist. It's to specialize, and to understand the requirements of your specialty. If you are making graphics for a videogame, it takes more than how many colors you can use. It requires understanding what a videogame is, what it does, and your part in how it does it. A creation - any creation, not just games - is something which works towards this perfect sphere. No bumps. No dents. If you make something that contributes to that sphere, you get a perfectly smooth surface. Everything works together. But if you deliver something which is at odds - something which doesn't do something as well as it should, or too well for what it's suppose to, it can ruin that perfect surface. The function of this artwork is extremely poor - some of the worst I've ever seen - while the style is far too grandeur for what it needs to be.
You need to create artwork that is something which realizes that it is a tactics game, that it is an amateur flash game. You've already created more classes than you need or will use and you don't even have a prototype working yet. You aren't being practical. You are flying out towards every half decent idea that crosses your desk without having a proper foundation to contain it, or without regard to how that idea fits into the grand scheme. For instance, you've got all these different classes because... well, because other games had these classes. You haven't considered exactly how each of them fit into the design other than the generic archetypes. I mean, if FFT had a thief class, then you need a thief class right? The problem is, you aren't creating something with the time and budget of FFT. You aren't going to be able to balance the game at all. You aren't going to be able to have that kind of depth because a) you don't currently have the talent and b) you aren't planning on going far enough with the game to see it through. You'll end up with a mish-mash of ideas stolen from a dozen different games that just don't fit together at all. A half assed smorgasbord.
Scale back, considerably. You are jumping every conceivable gun.
But that's design advice and this is a pixel art forum, which is another reason why I didn't want to go down that road. I only wanted to comment on what was there, and that was about two dozen different sprites that were virtually indistinguishable from each other.
so far, the only point youve made is that crowds are more difficult to see, which is common sense. the images youve provided of my guys in a crowd are still easily readable to me, though they do take longer to see than when characters are spread out.
making these characters different colors and shapes will not solve that problem in our project or any project
do you have a solution to this problem in mind?
It won't solve your problem, no. But shapes and colors will go a long way to helping it. Truth be told, you want shorter characters so they won't overlap as much. You'd probably also benefit from 3D terrain, since rotation makes the physical relationships between units more explicit. Having fewer classes, which need to be identified would also make a huge difference. The less diversity you have to remember, they less you have to explicitly delineate. You could design your maps so that grouping would be difficult, but that would impact the gameplay rather than being a purely graphical decision. Using harder outlines for the characters, and softening the dark internal lines would help. But the biggest difference would be a superior color scheme.
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Ooh! Make me in the game, please! I wear a red sash and a turban with a feather and a gem in it and I'm real buff. Exciting!
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Sqorgar: You seriously need to cut back on your assy way of commenting. Also you tell people they are defensive when you acted extremely defensive in your thread with the boatshoeguys. I find what you are doing quite a bit pretentious. You think you know everything about what Adarias wants to do with this project and if he can pull it off or not. Also he never said that the colourscheme is final, it's one that can be changed. Just try to be more friendly and think twice before you write something. You are extremely condescending and at the samy time very paranoid, taking everything as a personal attack. Maybe you should go breathe some fresh air more often. In any case if you keep posting like you did up until now your stay on this forum wont be a permanent one. And don't reply to this in this thread, if you have problems with it pm me.
Adarias: Coming along nicely i think, the only one thing I agree with Sqorgar is more defined outlines would be better, on both characters and landscape edges.
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I have no problems recognising the characters in a crowd, and you've made lots of progress on differentiating them, great job!
I agree with Sqorgar that it is quite ambitious for a first project (or first few?, haven't seen anything from you before, maybe I'm wrong), but I hope your team pulls through.
Having our own characters in the game? oooh!
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sqorgar - thank you for your opinion, and please don't worry voicing it in the future.
ptoing and sqorgar - yes, i've been toying with stronger outlines, and made a few tests of the easy way (expanding them 1px outside what they are now), first using a non-aa'd white line, then a soft "white" line, then a non-aa'd black line, then a soft "black" line, but none of them worked quite as nicely as i was hoping yet, partly because Fil and I liked different tests, and party because, when fullscreen, a double outline looked rediculous. tomorrow, when i am less tired, im going to experiment with working within the existing sprites, darkenning the outer lines and lightening the inner lines as you had suggested.
general - ive been working much more with the values of the landscapes and am getting closer to a final look for the tiles, these also will be included in the update. Also included will be placeholders for tall grass, which is about as exciting as it sounds, but is fairly important because there are several ways to do it and it would be great to hear people's opinions on the methods we are testing.
when i say croquis i mean any sort of sketch, though an industry-standard croquis, a nine-head-high figure done with pencil, then inked, reproduced in multiples, colored as variations with guache or aquarelle would be lovely as well :P
actual updates should follow either tomorrow or monday
just as a reminder, those interested in the game design should be sure to check our blog:
partisan-tb.blogspot.com/
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Sqorgar: You seriously need to cut back on your assy way of commenting.
Yes, I know. That's why I removed that post. I only reposted it because he very obviously resented me removing it.
Also he never said that the colourscheme is final, it's one that can be changed.
I was more bothered by his priorities, I guess you could say. It only came out as an obsession with color schemes because I didn't want to commit to a full scale discussion about it. Oh well...
You are extremely condescending and at the samy time very paranoid, taking everything as a personal attack.
I thought this was a particularly funny statement. See if you can spot the hypocrisy!
Maybe you should go breathe some fresh air more often. In any case if you keep posting like you did up until now your stay on this forum wont be a permanent one. And don't reply to this in this thread, if you have problems with it pm me.
I'm going to do it here for two reasons. The first is that you aren't the only person who is going to respond to my post, and I wanted to publicly underscore the fact that I deleted the post in the first place, only to post again by reluctance. I will take full responsibility for the content of that post, but I won't be tar and feathered on behalf of my judgement in posting it.
The second is to save you a little time and excuse myself from the forum on my own terms. I don't really like being threatened all that much, and the line I crossed is one I would gladly cross again. My critique was harsh indeed, but it was a critique none the less. It has value, regardless of how hard it is to hear. If anybody here wants a similar critique on their work, they'll have to ask for it through PM. I'll not volunteer one in the future.
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I think ptoing wanted you to pm so you wouldnt derail this thread even more. All i've seen from your posts are trouble.
Adarias - about the "create your own NPC" are you going to create the sprites or, if we are good enough and match your style, could we create them? I also think the Link sprite i think snake made at the top would be a cool thing to add in, he sorta fits the era and would be a cool reference to some of the legendary games.
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I also think the Link sprite i think snake made at the top would be a cool thing to add in, he sorta fits the era and would be a cool reference to some of the legendary games.
Only if they want to be sued I'm afraid.
*working on NPC :D*
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Only if they want to be sued I'm afraid.
Sued for having a character in green with a fairy? I doubt they'd find a lawyer to back their case of sprite in green, unless nintendo own the right to green clothes?
Obviously you don't have to say its link, but most gamers would recognise it.
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Adarias - about the "create your own NPC" are you going to create the sprites or, if we are good enough and match your style, could we create them?
i know that most of the people here are very talented, much better than i am in many cases, so feel free to pixel a character instead of showing a drawing, but understand 2 things. First - every character that is battle-ready has 120+ frames of animation, so unless you are feeling very industrious, Im going to be doing the lion's share of the pixelling, anyway. Second, the sprites as they are now are still WIP and constantly changing, so what you pixel now might be irrelevant tomorrow. see the small update at the end of this post..
I also think the Link sprite i think snake made at the top would be a cool thing to add in, he sorta fits the era and would be a cool reference to some of the legendary games.
Being that the game is to be 100% free and it is easy to not contain direct references to names etc, i think it would be a fine easteregg if snake should like to have it in :P
i cant wait to see what you guys might be cooking up, theres so much creativity on this board :P
----------------------------------------------
UPDATE:
Ive been doing experiemnts with the outlines/inside lines of the characters, and so far i like the results. here is an animated gif, and i think you can see which is the newer:
(http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1197/animuj5.gif)
I also have been experimenting with the tiles, and am equally pleased:
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9340/animwz7.gif)
both the tiles and the characters still have a long way to go, but i am happy thusfar with the progress. Certain comments have not been addressed in this animation, but dont worry, i am listening.
The hair is green so that the shades are easier to identify when Fil puts in his recoloring system. the hair of the characters in the earlier images is recolored much the way it will be in the game. the 3 shades of Red and 3 of Blue also are setup to be changed, and the 2 shades of the skin. this is so that we do not have to hand-recolor every single piece an incredible number of times to attain the level of variation we desire
i believe i mentioned earlier that i was working on tall grass, and you can see some of it in the first picture, but it is also a walkable tile that the player can move between, and it will be animated. here is a still shot of characters standing in the tall grass:
(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9541/tallgrasstestzm7.png)
Thanks a lot to ptoing for helping out, i am currently using a system where each grass tuft is a single object on each tile, and i think that this is fine for what i am trying to accomplish with tall grass, but what do others think? Ptoing i know wants me to use the house of cards method, with a piece of the object in front of the character and another piece behind, but this would require some real alterations to the coding thusfar to allow for this, so unless people really do not like this look, i dont think we will pursue that as a course of action yet.
please keep the C+C coming! Thanks everybody for the help!
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It's looking great! The outlines and the new tiles contrast nicely! When you're satisfied with the sprite style, let me know, and I'll make an NPC.
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The new tiles are awesome!! the changes to the sprites also enhance there beauty.
I think maybe a few more oldschool game sprite eastereggs would be a cool thing to include, obviously nothing that will stick out too much like megaman or sonic LOL.
Anways I'll try and create a tophat character soon, but im pretty busy recently.
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VAST improvement adarias, very nice stuff, eager to see how the grass turns out!
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Time for a town & shops mockup !
Before I show you anything, I want you to know that :
-The sword is a placeholder. Adarias has not made icons yet
-The map is a placeholder. We'll show the town, not a seaside thing ^^
-Some things are not pixel art
Browsing the town, from building to building :
(http://xs107.xs.to/xs107/06390/Town_mockup4.png)
Entering a shop :
(http://xs107.xs.to/xs107/06390/Town_mockup7-0.png)
Buying :
(http://xs107.xs.to/xs107/06390/Town_mockup7-1.png)
C+C about the interface is welcome
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Ive been doing experiemnts with the outlines/inside lines of the characters, and so far i like the results. here is an animated gif, and i think you can see which is the newer:
I also have been experimenting with the tiles, and am equally pleased:
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9340/animwz7.gif)
I think the difference is like night and day. The soft internal lines with the hard outline really make a huge amount of difference. For the tiles, the shading literally brings out the definition. The one thing you should think about is making the ramp tiles noticably darker than the flat ground tiles, and make ramps one direction noticably darker than the other. The definition of the land is literally defined by the negative space. You aren't creating the three dimensional shape by what's there, but from the shadows themselves. As such, the ramps create sort of a muddled look - especially towards the bottom where you've got two ramps going two different directions on two different planes. It creates a visual confusion - but that may just be because you've got a ramp leading up into a mismatched ramp, so it doesn't flow together as well. The ramps are not so much an equal part of the landscape, but a transition between layers.
It's like... have you ever seen a map for a roguelike game? Most of them represent it as simple gray squares with something like blue doors. But if you don't fill in the doors and just use a floor tile, the map looks over busy and kind of... spirally, if that makes any sense. If you fill in doors with wall tiles, the map feels too claustrophobic. But explicitly defining the doors as neither wall nor floor, you create this sort of node based map with connectivity. It compartmentalizes each room while still creating a distinct impression of how the floorplan flows. It's really weird to explain though.
And you might consider - I've never tried this out nor know if your engine can handle it, so this is just a brainstorm thing - adding a 1%-2% darkening to each layed (0% on the top layer, 2% on the next down, 4% on the one below that) creating a sort of darkening depth thing. That may look funny doing it dynamically, but I've created some (non-isometric) game art that did it manually - I knew the floor would always be exactly four tiles back, so I had a different set of tiles at a different darkness and scale to give the illusion of depth... plus, it paralax scrolled really nicely. The trick is, and I've gotten in trouble for saying this before, to make it almost invisible to the naked eye but explicit enough that the effect works.
i believe i mentioned earlier that i was working on tall grass, and you can see some of it in the first picture, but it is also a walkable tile that the player can move between, and it will be animated. here is a still shot of characters standing in the tall grass:
(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9541/tallgrasstestzm7.png)
I don't have time to comment on this right now, but I'd recommend making the grass shorter (about waist high) and use a harder outline where it overlaps the characters - not black, but a harder dark green, maybe.
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And you might consider - I've never tried this out nor know if your engine can handle it, so this is just a brainstorm thing - adding a 1%-2% darkening to each layed (0% on the top layer, 2% on the next down, 4% on the one below that) creating a sort of darkening depth thing. That may look funny doing it dynamically, but I've created some (non-isometric) game art that did it manually - I knew the floor would always be exactly four tiles back, so I had a different set of tiles at a different darkness and scale to give the illusion of depth... plus, it paralax scrolled really nicely. The trick is, and I've gotten in trouble for saying this before, to make it almost invisible to the naked eye but explicit enough that the effect works.
That's a good idea. I've just talked about it with Adarias, we'll make it but not always black (blue ambiant, red ambient...). ^^
I'll redo the map display code including this new feature...basically it's just some hexadecimal calculation.
Thank you =)
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Yeah, I have worked on a project that considered implementing this system before (its basically trying to emulate the atmospheric fog that many 3d programs can generate), but we were working with GM and the system could not handle it. I hadnt thought of applying it to this project though until you mentioned it, thanks for the idea
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Also, this really belongs in the employment section, but i figured since we alreay have a thread here im just going to put this out:
We need portrait artists for this game. My style of illustration/drawing works fine for concept art and traditional art, but this game calls for a style that is beyond me really. Please PM me or Fil if you are interested in helping out, and include samples of the level of work that you know you can commit to. We do not currently have a specific style that we intend to reach for, but we know that realism and my personal styles of representational abstraction simply do not fit, we are looking for something a bit more jpop im afraid (all of the older members cringe). Anything from the smooth, 'simple' style of Nippon Ichi's artists (examp: http://www.dengekionline.com/climan/images/phantom_main.jpg) to the almost Mucca-esque softly rendered artwork from the Suikoden series (examp: http://www.dignews.com/admin/screenshoot/suikodeniv_artwork_03.jpg) would be fine, and anything in-between, as well as if you have your own personal style that still captures the feeling of game art.
As far as exactly what the game calls for, if you decide to join you will need to do a series of busts, all of the same portion of the character, which should be large enough to look good when scaled to fit into half of the window (you can see the text boxes? the two halves of the space above them should be able to inculde on portrait each. here are the 2 zones: (http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/8159/zonesvj6.png)
Beyond all that, you may use your judgement. Thanks for reading :D
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You're breaking my heart, Adarias.
But the new stronger outlines look much better. The tall grass could stand to have some more contrast, maybe? It looks all blurry and hazy to me, and when I look at it it takes me a second to realize what it is.
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Absolutely beautiful. :'(
Am i right in thinking that some or all of the non-pixelart elements of the shop will later become pixelart? :-X
If i ever have a load of free time when you're more sure about the sprites i'd be honoured to be able to make one too. :lol:
Good luck with the stuff you have to do next!
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Larwick - perhaps, perhaps not, it depends on whether they can be pixelled to look better than they do now.
more updates on the pixel-art a bit later on this week, but for now, a continuation of the portrait discussion :
First off, thanks to those who responded to my post, support is always good :P
Second, this is just something to guage yourself by : this is a sketch of what we are planning to throw out, so we are looking for something similar to this, but better (and of course colored properly).
(http://www.geocities.com/donteatbadgers/BluffsFaces.PNG)
Thanks again,
Nate
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I'm forseeing huge problems with style clash. Never was personally a fan of pixel art and cg-portraits on top, I prefer when they're all made of the same thing, even sharing specific palette colors. I like cohesion and continuity. Furthermore, would you like specific critique on the placeholder portrait art?
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I'm forseeing huge problems with style clash. Never was personally a fan of pixel art and cg-portraits on top, I prefer when they're all made of the same thing, even sharing specific palette colors. I like cohesion and continuity. Furthermore, would you like specific critique on the placeholder portrait art?
Feel free to critique the sketch, just keep in mind it's a sketch. much of it will change (the colors, eyes looking the wrong direction, outline done quickly and badly, etc). I trust in your judgement though.
Also, the portraits will be pixelart, not CG, but i simply havent been able to get a good-enough looking lineart to work from out of my own head, which is why we are looking for someone with game-art type drawing abilities
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I really like how this is progressing, might make a npc for kicks ._.
Good luck and keep motivated ;D
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Made an edit on Xion Night's suggestion about "second from the left has a wierd butt"
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1838/arsezi9.png)
Anyway, keep up the awesome work. I want to see this done in the future :)
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froli - yes, the butt was changed a while ago, and just not pictured yet.
thanks to everyone who showed interest in joining as a portraiter, we have chosen Tremulant for the postion. We hope his talent and enthusiasm will bring a lot to the team and the project!
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update following later tonight, or possibly tomorrow depending.
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Would it be at all awkward if I were to say I love you? :crazy:
You actually almost inspired me to try making RPG-like sprites (although there are, in my opinion, too many people trying ::)), but luckily for most everyone I failed so miserably that it doesn't even meet my low standards for myself...heh.
I should very much like if you could find someone really good to do pixeled portraits (I know you're trying ;)) as opposed to some other media, because all of this pixel work is really impressive. I seem to remember you being incredibly good with portraits, why don't you try them?
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Creamy - Tremulant here is a wonderfull pixel-artist and the portraits will be pixelled (in fact, it's necessary that they be so that they can easily be recolored with the code Fil has made so nice)
I did try them myself, hand-drawn and pixelled, and a mix of both, but i jsut cannot get the hang of this style of artwork. oh well, i will learn, but until that day we are glad to have superb artists like Trem willing to help ;D
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Update!
FINALLY fixed the sets, mostly to take nearly all of the comments into consideration. here is an image containing the newly done versions:
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2454/testnk2.png)
not so exciting, since you had seen much of this already, but you can see this process of finding a nice style is nearing completion. I am, however, realising that some units, particulary the ones wearing ots of dark gray, may not have enough of a team color to be as easily identified as i would hope. I may look into the possibiliy of having the grays change a bit from team to team as well as the 2 uniform colors, sometimes being lighter or darker or more brown or more blue-gray etc.
Also, ignore the placement of the wood (in this case a bridge) tile, but if anyone has any comments on it atm id love to hear.
I dont think we have any functioning bridges in the game. sure we can make them visually, but we will never have 2 characters sharing a tile one below and one beneath the other so far as i know because the sorting gives us headaches just thinking about it, and ive never played a tactical game where the ability to have bridges had a notably positive impact on the gameplay, more often then not they were just a frustration to movement and visuals.
(http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7209/testce8.png)
Also, a slight update to the tall grass, its still very much a WIP.
Darien, its interesting you should say to add contrast, i didnt hear you say that the first time. I actually thought taking contrast away would make it more readable, but maybe i was wrong? anyway i might as well post this now since ive gone and done it, but later i might try your suggestion
Another note on this - several people have suggested i bring the grass height lower, and there will be many types of grass that are not this high, but this really is a test of seeing how high i can make it while having the characters visible. once i get this look down, shorter grasses will come easily
Also, a general shout-out, i still am completely blank when it comes to ways to make the cloaks look different in a way that represents the job. if anyone has any idea, do let me know
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I'm digging the purple-grayish grass, I would use lighter yellow. It seems like all your tiles have strange coloring choices, and it just doesn't work.
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I'm digging the purple-grayish grass, I would use lighter yellow. It seems like all your tiles have strange coloring choices, and it just doesn't work.
Takai, i feel as though you have useful things to say, but time and time again i cannot understand what you are talking about.
When i read your post there, i read it as "direct positive comment, I would vague suggestion. It seems like vague negative comment, and vague negative comment."
While i certainly dont mind negative comments, what i would love would be if that read instead "direct positive comment, but I would direct suggestion. It seems like direct negative comment, and direct suggestion"
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-Putting words into other peoples mouth, excuse me :-\-
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Nice tiles. You are moving along well with these. Very psychedellic tinge, compared to other iso tactical contemporaries. The stone surfaces look great. I think the tall grass has too much contrast, but that's really my personal taste speaking. I'd keep using the hue shifting techniques, but try to find ways to reduce the contrast so that your characters don't blend away into the background too much... only other advice I have is to keep working at reducing generic cubism to the individual tiles. It's not about destroying your grid altogether, but adding curves into a tile space where surfaces and sides meet so a more organic or soft-edged (for shapes) look is obtained. Awesome stuff.
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Dude, your gui totally blows. ;)
But seriously, it's a little boring. Why not some lovely bejewelled scrollwork around the edges and a transparent background? :)
Just doesn't seem in keeping with the setting of the game.
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Why not some lovely bejewelled scrollwork around the edges and a transparent background? :)
Because i think that kind of thing is ugly? lol. if anyone else wants to design a GUI, be my guest, but so long as me and Fil are doing it it's going to stay clean and simple. personal preference.
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For me, it is rather the thick black edges that draws my interest to the bottom of the screen while it should be focused at what happens on the top, and that's all for me.
But yeah. I'd suggest that you lessen the contrast a wee bit since high contrasts is something that catches your eye. Hence, the black text is nice imo, while the edges, which are always there, kind of takes over the whole bottom even though they're not really a detail of interest.
But ugly? Hell no. I especially like the little "H" gem. That's all the bling you need to get me going :>
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For me, it is rather the thick black edges that draws my interest to the bottom of the screen while it should be focused at what happens on the top, and that's all for me.
But yeah. I'd suggest that you lessen the contrast a wee bit since high contrasts is something that catches your eye. Hence, the black text is nice imo, while the edges, which are always there, kind of takes over the whole bottom even though they're not really a detail of interest.
Yeah, the text-box is definately made to draw attention, hense th high contrast, but it is a bit distracting. I think though that it shouldnt be *too* much of an issue since the boxes will only be displayed when they are currently supposed to be the focus, and hidden when not. they are on here just to test how they look with the tiles, which is important. I will look into the contrast thing though, you make an excellent point.
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I'm sorry, I didn't get much sleep.
What I mean to say is your color choices just don't fit. The purple gray I'm *not* digging, and even if its like everyother rpg out there, I think instead you should use light yellow for the top of the color ramp of the tall grass. The random coloring of the tall grass doens't work. Just tone down the difference of the color ramps. Your sprites have awesome coloring, but the tiles are so random and all over the place in colors, it doesn't fit. Everyone else probably praises you for it, but it doesn't work, it's too, not annoying, but something similar to that, and I think it should look more traditional. Your probably going to disagree with me, but the coloring job on the tiles specifically is just, well... awkward. If I have to do an edit to explain further I will, because it could be so much better.
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you probably know what takai is saying adarias, but incase your a tad confused: the tiles' pallette has of course shifted hues, but he thinks( i agree) that they are too spaced and less coherent. kind of how a highlight color much brighter than shades that had been more similair before may look odd.
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I'm sorry, I didn't get much sleep.
What I mean to say is your color choices just don't fit. The purple gray I'm *not* digging, and even if its like everyother rpg out there, I think instead you should use light yellow for the top of the color ramp of the tall grass. The random coloring of the tall grass doens't work. Just tone down the difference of the color ramps. Your sprites have awesome coloring, but the tiles are so random and all over the place in colors, it doesn't fit. Everyone else probably praises you for it, but it doesn't work, it's too, not annoying, but something similar to that, and I think it should look more traditional. Your probably going to disagree with me, but the coloring job on the tiles specifically is just, well... awkward. If I have to do an edit to explain further I will, because it could be so much better.
Hm.....i don't know what to do about this, since to me there is nothing "random" about the colors selected, and i dont think they are anywhere close to what i would consider "all over the place", so without a better explanation of what is actually bothering you and why, theres not much i can do to fix this. As far as your suggestion of using direct hue ramps and making the top of the ramp a light yellow, it makes perfect sense, but i have tried it in various ways, and i hate it, at least what ive tried. making the whole grass lightly colored is not something i want to do, and to make the top of the ramp very bright while keeping the general colors a nice dark make it too contrasty and it steals attention from the characters without even looking nice. Using washed out colors on a single-hue ramp (which would correct the contrast issue a little) to me just looks bad imo; it's all washed out and no colors. These colors and shapes have been specifically chosen to create cold soup (specifically taken to knock each other down in the percieved saturation) that will show motion without real distraction, and will not have really defined shapes but should give the general impression of grass.
In the end, i guess i just don't know what either of you are saying. sorry if im being a prick, i just dont *get it*
perhaps you could edit to show what you mean, and how you would solve the problem?
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bumpdate -
Working on the running frames, and they are very rough atm, here is just the beginning --
(http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2631/runtestdd7.gif)(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1038/runtest2wc1.gif)
thanks to Ptoing for his help and pointers
does anyone have anything to say before i begin finalizing these frames and moving on to the other animations? (besides to add shadows, im keeping them off till i know that the frames won't change much)
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The hair is too static. The fact that the head is unchanging immediatley stood out to me.
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Hair is static allright, also you might move sprite 1 px to the left in frames 3 and 6, it will take care of roughness.
Although all that looks critical only if sprite runing on one spot, when it actually moving - it would look different.
A quick edit, if you won't mind:
(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/wc1.gif)
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Hair is static allright, also you might move sprite 1 px to the left in frames 3 and 6, it will take care of roughness.
Although all that looks critical only if sprite runing on one spot, when it actually moving - it would look different.
A quick edit, if you won't mind:
(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/wc1.gif)
I may take that movement into consideration, depends on how it looks in the game. Atm, i think yours ends up looking too jerky. thanks for that edit though
The hair cannot really be animated under the current set of rules because the head is a separate set and would have too many frames if it was animated. as it stands, each headset = 30 jobs - 5 without hats x 4 directions x 3 states (normal, hurt, dead) = 300 frames. To multiply this by the number of additional frames needed simply wont work. Like in Ragnarok Online and other games, animation takes it on the chin here to allow for variation.
What we *may* do is to add maybe 1 or 2 movements, which would only make for 400-500 frames, and just milk those for all they are worth
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you could take care of the head by delaying the heads horizontal movement a frame (relative to the torso). That'd spice it up alot and save you the imense workload of seperate animation. Very nice thread btw. top nudge stuff and it's been an absolute pleasure to watch the work evolve :y: :y: :y:
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Adarias this is so incredibly awesome i can't even put it into words, can't wait to play this thing! Tough I have to say I liked your 'washed out' pallete more than the new one for the characters ;)
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wow, the sheer quantity of work you do, let alone the amazing quality astounds me. Out of all the different classes my favourites would be the ones with helmets, they just look way too nifty. The run animation looks nice, but the head movement does seem a bit strange, then again, I guess I'd have to see it actually moving across the screen to judge it properly. Keep up the good work ;D
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Is there any sort of production website or progress website you have for this? I'd really like to see all this beautiful work compiled somewhere where I can just browse it all and see how far along it all is and whether I will ever be able to play such a pretty looking game.
If not... I suggest you find someone to throw such a thing together for you/ put something together yourself so as to keep track of all this and whatnot.
Looking all too sexy my friend, can't wait for the next sexcellent update ;)
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cave, hmm....idk about the palette. i like the new colors because they stand out more :/
vedsten, thats a good idea :D
shifty - thanks :P the helmets are the most fun
quark - http://partisan-tb.blogspot.com/
look for an update later this week(end?)
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wow, i REALLY don't have time to update this tonight, I have so much work to do and most likely will not like, sleep but i promised to update this weeks ago....so we are going to cheat >.<
24.10.06
Oups, à la bourre
Brrr, j'ai honte de laisser passer autant de temps entre les mises à jour. La semaine a été mouvementée aussi bien chez Adarias que chez moi mais j'imagine que pendant les vacances je serai un peu plus bavard =)
·Bon, vite vite les images pour me faire pardonner. Tout d'abord, un artwork de toutes les épées du jeu :
(http://fil.razorback.free.fr/Partisan/blog/Swords.bmp)
Comme d'hab, on clique pour voir en grand
Avec ça, le jour où on sera à la rue on pourra vendre des artbook Partisan hahaha !
·Adarias a continué à dessiner les tiles et un tileset de ville commence à prendre forme :
(http://fil.razorback.free.fr/Partisan/blog/testmap.png)
J'ai vraiment hâte de voir les toits, les fenêtres et toutes les fioritures.
J'espère quand même qu'il fait pas ses maps avec des copier-coller. Vivement que l'éditeur de maps soit operationnel !
·Bon c'est pas tout ça mais y'a aussi le coding, l'editeur de map avance plus que bien. J'ai mis au point le système de chargement et découpage automatique des tilesets (animations comprises). Ca a été bien galère car j'ai plus l'habitude d'utiliser des tilesets inclus à la bibliotheque du jeu, là il a fallu coder à la main l'équivalent d'une petite timeline pour chaque tile animé. Un vrai bonheur ^^
Les menus suivants de l'editeur sont codés :
-choix du tileset
-choix du tile et du bloc à placer
-affichage de la combinaison du tile et du bloc choisi
Et la partie "interface" (déplacement des panneaux, pliage/dépliage des panneaux...) est bouclée aussi. Ouf !
·Un savant calcul nous a poussé à diminuer le nombre d'armes de certaines catégories et au final chaque classe de perso a, à la fin de son évolution, accès à 24 armes. Ca re-équilibre les différents jobs et ça fait moins d'armes à dessiner. Tout benef'
Voili voilou, c'est tout pour aujourd'hui.
posté par Fil Razorback at 21:32
i plan to actually update this soon but it turns out applying to colleges and for financial aid and building a portfolio etc. is no quick task
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Those swords look sweet. Will they be that size in the game, or will they be shrunk down? By this, I mean, will there be a preview menu when shopping or equipping items that will show the item you're viewing with that amount of detail, or will they all be represented by simple icons like in most games?
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I hesitated to post this before since it uses so many placeholders and fil hasnt coded all of it (so its a mockup, not a screencapture......)
(http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/7762/shopmockupru5.png)
but anyway, while much of that will change, weapons are resiszed i think to approx 50% as shown here (give or take a few percent since they arent all drawn exactly in proportion to each other) and then will be pixelled over (the handdrawn versions are for me to trace)
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Oh my, not a radial gradient! I hope that's place-holdery too?
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Adarias told me he wanted to keep it but I haven't told him yet that I don't like it (at all :D)
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it is jsut a placeholder, but it's not changing till someone comes up with something better, because a plain dark background does not work at all for the weapons and a plain light background doesnt look good either, nor is it in keeping with the shop inventory screen preceding the purchase screen
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You should have five backgrounds for the weapon "portraits", one for each point on the pentacle. The four standard ones would correspond to earth, wind, fire, and water while the fifth could be a spiritual element (for holy/unholy blessed/cursed weapons).
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Except that our weapons do not have any elemental power and I don't think we'll add some.
The idea was not bad tough, thank you ^^
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I think the gradient is fine, a game of this proportion doesn't need to be completely pixelled in my opinion. I think you just need a better colour for the gradient, and maybe make it non-circular. I think that menu would benefit from a more neutral colour in the gradient, maybe a rich chocolate brown gradient or something. Make it feel earthy and full-bodied (lol, like a good cup of coffee)
That's what I would suggest.
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Except that our weapons do not have any elemental power and I don't think we'll add some.
Well, the weapons wouldn't necessarily have to 'posess' the power of the respective element, just be related to it. For instance: clubs, quarterstaffs, obsidian spears, and the like would fall under the earth element, since they relate to a land-based resource like wood or stone. Weapons with forged blades would represent the fire element. The wind element would be comprised of ranged weapons or higher-tech stuff. The water element could represent weapons made from its resources like a swordfish sword, a reed blowgun, or a coral blade lance. All magic weapons fall under the spirit weapon category.
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Well, the weapons wouldn't necessarily have to 'posess' the power of the respective element, just be related to it. For instance: clubs, quarterstaffs, obsidian spears, and the like would fall under the earth element, since they relate to a land-based resource like wood or stone. Weapons with forged blades would represent the fire element. The wind element would be comprised of ranged weapons or higher-tech stuff. The water element could represent weapons made from its resources like a swordfish sword, a reed blowgun, or a coral blade lance. All magic weapons fall under the spirit weapon category.
it's a fine idea, but not for this game.
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For a moment last night i remember imaginging some sort of subtle (so as not to be distracting) repeated pattern of an axe icon (or sword, spear.. etc for diff types of weapons) in a particular colour in the background, sort of cloth-like. I don't know if that's any use to you, but i just thought i'd let you know about the idea.
I really like that latest mockup, kind of looks like some part in a storyline... with an antagonist listening in to a conversation or something.
Haha, my mind goes to weird places sometimes. Good luck with the next bit of the game, can't wait to see more updates.
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Very nice work Adarias. You've done *quite* alot with your project; it's nice a 'pretty-pixel' game that's actually getting somewhere. I particularly love those sword sketches you did, brilliant designs. I'm glad you're using colored shadows in your game too, they much better than standard transparent black/gray. For your shop/weapon's background dilemma, perhaps you could go the baldur's gate route and use a paper/scroll like background (pixeled of course, with the weapons being just a pixeled sketch?) Anyways I can't wait to see more, good luck with Partisian Tactics.
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(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2454/testnk2.png)
I just wanted to add how impressed I am with the amount of improvement in this screenshot over what you had to begin with. The sprites really "pop" against the background. I think the transition to this point is the difference between good art and good game art. These edits take into consideration the overall functionality and feel of the art within the overall game. I really like it.
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ok, well, the game has been progressing slowly, but ive come to a major problem - i really dont know how to do tiles effectively. here are a few screens -
(http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/5123/3158/1600/679593/Screen0.png)(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1430/mockerszp7.png)
(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6411/1bg5.png)(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7619/2tw4.png)
basically, the readability is lacking in all of them and the aesthetics, well, they are falling. the issue is that i don't know how to improve this, im completely stuck in what im doing. perhaps there are any suggestions people might have?
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I think that you have been looking at it for so long, it's starting to bug you. It looks very well-done and professional. After looking at it for a while, though, I think maybe the lush-ness of the environments almost detracts from the players.
The tiles almost seem like they would be found in a GBA-version of Super Mario RPG. They are very rich and saturated, however the players have more of a realistic drive, rather than a brightly coloured, comical character. If you take a look through some of the tiles in Final Fantasy Tactics, (example below) you'll see that while the envireonment is 3d-rendered, it is still less detailed than the characters (along with a much different palette), and in turn, it makes the players stand out.
(http://i14.tinypic.com/2vx0znd.jpg)
(i realize that this is a poor-quality screencap, but it gets the point across.)
Trust me, this really pains me to say, because the environments are amazing. But I think it's something you should consider.
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Personally, I don't think they look bad - I think that some palette changes might look nice, but I don't think they look nearly as bad as you make them out to be.
The question that immediately comes to mind when looking at it, though, is "how are your maps built?". Are you forced to build them in the way that you are now, by making "blocks" and then building your scene with those blocks? Is this a programming issue?
If you are forced to build your scene with "blocks", then how many are you limited to using per map? Are your colors limited?
I have some ideas but need to know what restrictions you have..
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the problem with the tiles is that they all just look like patterns.
you have to make them LOOK like something, else everything just seems chaotic and crazy.
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May I just say that it may well be non-implamentable, but I edited the Paladin sprite. I gave him a cute cape too! ;)
(http://www.toolkitzone.com/vault/stuff/13231_Paladin.bmp)
Newly made to comply with the dark outlines.
(http://www.toolkitzone.com/vault/stuff/13231_Paladin2.bmp)
EDIT: Oh, and would you accept help on tiles or sprites? I love the pallete choice, and as I can emulate styles and colours but have trouble choosing effective ones of my own to use as a base, I am good on teams with established styles and palletes.
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Really, the thing that seems to work against you in these is the overtexturing on the tiles. It makes the whole thing look chaotic, which in turn makes the readability of the whole scene just that much harder. I don't think they all need to be simplified, but some that need to make up large chunks of terrain should be less detailed in order to prevent pulling the attention away from the characters. Like in the town shot, all the areas with the bricks are just pulling your eyes in too many directions at once.
I dunno, maybe just work with the level of detail on them a bit and keep it in mind for when you make new areas.
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The question that immediately comes to mind when looking at it, though, is "how are your maps built?". Are you forced to build them in the way that you are now, by making "blocks" and then building your scene with those blocks? Is this a programming issue?
If you are forced to build your scene with "blocks", then how many are you limited to using per map? Are your colors limited?
The maps have to be made of "blocks" (tiles) but there are no color limitations and we can use about as many as we want per map.
Delphinus >> You edited a very very old sprite, we don't use these anymore ^^
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Oops, but still, is it possible to join the team? Not to sound desperate...
EDIT: Can I see some of the newer sprites too, please.
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The maps have to be made of "blocks" (tiles) but there are no color limitations and we can use about as many as we want per map.
Okay, then - if you have no color limitations, and no limit to the number of blocks/tiles you use - the sky's the limit!
This is a super fast example, I'm heading out in 5 minutes but wanted to show you what I'm talking about.
Right now, you're thinking in terms of creating "blocks" that can then be laid out in the shape of a scene/stage. This is the wrong way to go about it - and it's what's leading to the patterned effect that Alex HW mentioned.
Instead, think in terms of creating whole buildings or scenes, and then making blocks/tiles out of them. For example!
This is some iso building that I randomly grabbed off of eBoy (www.eboy.com):
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/525/eboybuildingtl3.png)
This is a rough approximation of your grid/tile size:
(http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/5756/blockix2.png)
Now, if you make a larger piece (like that building), you can just lay your grid over it. For example, this is the eBoy building with your grid on top:
(http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/5708/eboygridnp1.png)
From there, you could easily make the blocks/tiles necessary to recreate that in your game. An example (gridlines on top for example only):
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6973/eboygrid2mz9.png)
Does that make sense? Sorry if it's confusing at all, I'd be happy to explain what I'm saying, more clearly, later - I'm in a bit of a hurry at the moment.
Good luck!
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Akzidenz: That's bullshit. What's the point of having tiles if each one is used only once?
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Akzidenz: That's bullshit. What's the point of having tiles if each one is used only once?
Hahahaha.. bullshit? Wow. :n:
Maybe so that it doesn't look like the stage is made up of tiles?
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i kind of get what hes saying. At the moment adarias has made textured tiles and "randomly" ??? positioned to make a map.
akzidenz is saying perhaps make a small scene and then divide it into tiles. then fix it a bit so the tiles can be repeated and the map will appear more coherent.
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i kind of get what hes saying. At the moment adarias has made textured tiles and "randomly" ??? positioned to make a map.
akzidenz is saying perhaps make a small scene and then divide it into tiles. then fix it a bit so the tiles can be repeated and the map will appear more coherent.
This is what I'm saying, yeah.
As I said, my example was some ghetto shit that I did in order to illustrate what I was talking about. Ideally? You'd know the grid that you were working with, and you could create tiles as you built your stages with re-use and repetition in mind.
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the problem with the tiles is that they all just look like patterns.
you have to make them LOOK like something, else everything just seems chaotic and crazy.
That's what I was thinking too.
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I just wanna say I really like how the tiles look. isometric games usually turn me off, but this looks great :y:
btw, the little (H) thing in the left text box really reminds me of uTorrent's logo
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Noticing from your work, it has always been one of my favorites.
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heh, did expect so many responses so quickly
no, im afraid we are not looking for additional spriters, though if anyone is interested in doing high-quality portraits, tremulant no longer has the time to do them (sad face)
ok, about the scene way of doing things. Ideally, thats what i would do, however, it doesnt work at all with the current methods of construction, and also makes things difficult. its likely though that many environments will contain larger block elements, in addition to the regular tiles.
Thanks for the advice too guys, some how i had never thought to reduce the level of business >.< i will try that, as well as trying to unify each face with more local value shifts instead of the high-contrast ones. now i should only need some time.....^^
could people be more specific about "actually looking like something" ? everything i've done is a very specific material, and i thought that they communicated themselves rather clearly in that regard but apparently you dont think so :(
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could people be more specific about "actually looking like something" ? everything i've done is a very specific material, and i thought that they communicated themselves rather clearly in that regard but apparently you dont think so :(
I think that what they're getting at (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that your tileset is being used to create scenes that look very much like.. they were created with a tileset. If you play through FF Tactics Advance, it's not difficult to tell where the grid sits, but it's very difficult to tell exactly where one tile ends and another begins.
If you think of them less as individual tiles, and more as pieces of a larger puzzle, then I think you'll get better results. You started to do something like that on this screenshot:
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7971/ptbssix3.png)
Take advantage of transparencies, work on more than one tile at a time, consider how they'll look next to each other, try to fight the lego effect as much as you can. And if you can, get rid of the visible gridlines - I think they do a lot to detract from the quality of everything. Previous Tactics games haven't used a visible grid, have they? I'm not sure.
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could people be more specific about "actually looking like something" ? everything i've done is a very specific material, and i thought that they communicated themselves rather clearly in that regard but apparently you dont think so :(
forget about materials.. start thinking about forms.
the problem is that everything looks like a material, but the materials have no form.
It's like the material is pasted onto cardboard boxes.
sorry if that sounds harsh.
patterns make no sense if they can't express a form, in effect they'll seem flat.
when you use bunches of various colors in one pattern, that seems to be destroying any coherent form.
also, things dont need to be so squared. the games not going to fall apart if some shapes aren't exactly square/straight..
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I dont know if you have a working demo for this or anything, as I have not played it, but one thing I would love to see in it that isnt in fftactics or advance, is free roam...well within an area. fft and advance the only movement your player does is based on an event, which gets boring. id like to go into shops, houses, new areas rather than go along with the story to find out. with the graphics themselves, they look awesome, I cant wait to play it. the textbox isnt bad but could use revisions. and then the tiles are amazing as well as the rest of it, however I think they're too obvious when it comes to tiles. I think you should work them into eachother so you dont end up with 12 blocks of grass instead of an area of grass.
good luck.
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the textbox isnt bad but could use revisions.
I wanted to say something about the type. I gathered from your old posts that you're not incredibly concerned with the UI, but for what it's worth, here's my nerdy design advice:
Lucida Mono is the wrong face to use here. Your interface generally should reflect the type of game you're playing - the type choice should come from the other elements of the game. Your game is set in medival (or quasi-medival) times, from what I can tell. Monospaced typefaces certainly weren't around then, and neither were sans-serif typefaces. Monospaced type is generally something that you should avoid - it's much more difficult to read than other typefaces, it takes up more room, and regardless of the style of the face it will generally evoke a typewriter connotation.
I'm not sure what your limitations are with type. If you can't antialias your type at all, then try using Georgia (it comes standard on all computers now) - it's a really beautiful serif face that's designed specifically for the screen (whereas most typefaces are designed for the printed page). If you absolutely need to use a monospaced typeface, then Century Monospace is about the best you can do (http://www.fontshop.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.fontdetail&displayfontid=BT.107478.0.0). If you have no limitations, and you can antialias your type, then you can really look around and find something nice. The Serif (http://www.fontshop.com/?fuseaction=catalog.fontdetail&searchby=manufacturer&displayfontid=FK.108399.0.1) is one of my favorite contemporary serifs. It's almost impossible to make Jenson (http://www.fontshop.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.fontdetail&displayfontid=M.125307.0.0) look bad. If you don't want to use a serifed typeface (they're typically meant to be printed), there are a bunch of nice sans-serifs - Quay is a beautiful face (http://www.fontshop.com/?fuseaction=catalog.fontdetail&searchby=manufacturer&displayfontid=EF.547.0.1).
If you want to look through stuff on your own, www.fontshop.com is great, they have a big selection - and The Foundry (www.foundrytypes.co.uk) is probably the best contemporary type foundry out there. If you happen to find a typeface that you like, but you don't want to shell out $150 to try it, let me know via a PM or something.
Additionally, your UI screenshots on your blog are pretty chaotic. If you'd like some detailed advice on how to make them simpler or more effective, just let me know. :y:
So, yeah. Take that advice for what it is. If you want to ignore all of that, I promise my feelings won't be hurt. But since I can't draw worth shit, I feel like I should at least offer up advice on something that I know about. :)
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Beautiful work!
I think that your tiles might benefit if you had a little more contrast and a little less different hues in them. Some of them have 3 or 4 different hues, which I think is excessive for some of the materials you are representing. This might help the tiles stand out more.
Have you tried dropping your sprites onto screenshots of other isometric games and seeing if their tiles makes the sprites stand out more?
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Its been a bit too long since i updated.....
Thanks to all of their help with this, the tiles i think are far better now than they were in previous posts.. Now ive come back to an old issue though - the sand that ptoing has effectively dubbed "that ugly peanut-butter tile"
(http://xs313.xs.to/xs313/07100/Houses.png)
see the jiffy in hte bottom area? thats what i need to get rid of. BUT ive never known how to make a sand tile that looks good. does anyone have any ideas?
also note that the background is only a fill that wont be seen in-game, as sky will almost never be seen except in some areas which will be on cliffs. there is no "end of the world" arena edge for this project, everything will be built within restricted camera angles and obstacles that prevent the player from seeing anything empty area beyond the map
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I was wondering what those brown and purple swirls were, they look really bad. Right now they are way too busy and distracting. THe fact that you cram as many tiles as possible into your mock-ups, without any transition tiles as well, doesn't do much to help.
Sand tiles... sand tiles. Look at the far right... (from Tsugumo's tutorials)
(http://www.bigbluebubble.com/pixeltutorial/13.gif)
http://www.bigbluebubble.com/pixeltutorial/chapter5.htm
I know you've probably seen that already, but I think it should help all the same. It seems like you try to avoid large expanses of open space in your tiles, try and do something about that. Also, sand is not in any way bright. It's plain, mostly with flat unsaturated colors.
(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6295/tileeditmg7.png)
That's about as close as I could get using your colors. So yeah, I hope that helps some :)
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transitions will come when the regular tiles are ready, the things there now are but placeholders.
i like the colors you've chosen, but the thing that bothers me far more is the texture. until i get that right, the colors make little enough difference to me tbh. the last som shot is interesting in that it has simpler regions defined by fewer descriptors, i might try something like that......
as far as the open spaces thing, im not seeing that as an issue frankly. i dont like wide open spaces, i like maps with just enough room to breathe and little extra, as long as the characters aren't hidden from view. makes movement and planning more important, particularly getting your soldiers into cover or vantage points. It also makes variations in level "shapes" far better so that you dont have the whole "lets march across the field.....again" problem. empty spaces make for empty gameplay! Also, visually, ive always felt that closer is better, because it shrinks the number of times you have the same tile right next to itself over and again, which i find ugly. You example shots from SoM also are just as if not more crowded than mine, so i think im safe with the amount of space i have
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Sand is a very strange creature. It would be extremely difficult to get a good sandy look with just one tile, because as that tile may look sandy alone, when put in a bunch, it looks...well, like what you've got there, which, sorry, but, to be honest, doesn't look anything like sand. I think that, if you intend to keep it at just one tile, make it alot more simple so it doesn't grab the eye and force it to stare at this wierd swirly overtiled pattern you've got going on there. I think that dark brown is really hurting the tile. And then there's that wierd dotted line thing going on at the top of each tile...what's with that? That just makes the tileage even more blatant. But I would really strongly suggest that you use more that one tile. Break up the pattern, or at least expand it so it takes up like four tiles that can be arranged and rearranged. Toss some larger rocks in the mix...
Well that's just my 2 cents.
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Sand is a very strange creature. It would be extremely difficult to get a good sandy look with just one tile, because as that tile may look sandy alone, when put in a bunch, it looks...well, like what you've got there, which, sorry, but, to be honest, doesn't look anything like sand. I think that, if you intend to keep it at just one tile, make it alot more simple so it doesn't grab the eye and force it to stare at this wierd swirly overtiled pattern you've got going on there. I think that dark brown is really hurting the tile. And then there's that wierd dotted line thing going on at the top of each tile...what's with that? That just makes the tileage even more blatant. But I would really strongly suggest that you use more that one tile. Break up the pattern, or at least expand it so it takes up like four tiles that can be arranged and rearranged. Toss some larger rocks in the mix...
Well that's just my 2 cents.
thats a good idea, and like i said, variants and transitions come once the base is finished. as for the dotted line, thats a result of too many edits that i havent gone back and aligned.
working on a simplified version right now, will post soon.
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I've attempted a few sand tiles. I've noticed the blander it looks separate, the better it looks together. Also, like Xion said, a rock every once in awhile can make a big difference. Other then the sand, everything looks amazing. The two tiles for the paths do clash a little but nothing that distracting. The house is also much better looking then your last attempt at a house. It is actually very attractive.
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That is a great improvement.
Sd3 had some good sand :
(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5156/sd3deserttownaby3.png)
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(http://www.game-designer.org/resume/portfolio/pixel/MOCKUP_desert.png)
This is something I made to resemble SD3 grass and make it properly tilable...
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SD3 sand, silly.
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grass
lol
it looks nice though
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This is something I made to resemble SD3 grass and make it properly tilable...
I think you need to water you're grass..
But yeah, those aren't bad desert tiles.
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thanks for all the help guys, particularly gil
(http://xs313.xs.to/xs313/07100/Houses2.png)
making some attempts......
also, a link to how it (should) look fullscreen (1280 x 1024) http://xs313.xs.to/xs313/07100/Houses3.png
the rocks are mostly just testing how the palette will mix, there will be quite a few more types of rocks when all is said and done so they wont all look the same. also there are still a lot of placeholders...just kinda ignore them if you could
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Much, much better. :y: :y:
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Big improvement. I think it fits actually really well.
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Looks great. I like how you kept in the swirly peanut butter as a transition tile. I actually liked that tile. But yeah, looks hot, fits with the style for the most part, well done.
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actually, those swirls that are left are just tiles still in line for the guillotine. I think i may keep the texture of them though, as a monument to "Things Adarias Thought Were Good Ideas" (like cutting my hair >.<)
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Now update those plants with the hanging leaves.
Dunno if they're WIP, but they lack in detail, and are slightly out of perspective.
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The new sand is much much better :)
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also, a link to how it (should) look fullscreen (1280 x 1024) http://xs313.xs.to/xs313/07100/Houses3.png
I'm enjoying this thread immensely, but I don't understand that link. It should have a headache-inducing blur? The filtering must be a mistake, since the finished game surely would use nearest neighbor upscaling with a correct ratio if you'd want to use such high fullscreen resolutions?
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we aren't sure yet whether pixels will be sharp or soft when fullscreen. I have always prefered softened when i play pixel-art games such as emulators, i find the sharpness to be much more "headache-inducing." Im going to ask fil though if we can make that a visual option that can be on or off.
For comparisson, just double click the small image here for a rough approximation of fullscreen sharpened, though as you can see, it isn't going to fit perfectly with nearest-neighbor, about 14% of the image goes off the sides of the screen with that or there is a massive gutter (if you are any of the standrad resolutions)
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I also demand an option to turn of the preposterous blurring!
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Adrias, is this a rpg? if not are you planning on making it one and . . . I want to play it sooo sooo badly.
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It's a tactical rpg, son.
To play the game, wait another 5 years or so.
My favourite thread. Keep it up!
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It's a tactical rpg, son.
To play the game, wait another 5 years or so.
pretty much sums it up :P
fil's the one to ask about blur vs no blur as an option. im probably in the minority here when i say i don't like seeing large, sharp pixels :( (although blur is default on most programs that have pixel-art games, like snes emus etc)
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I also demand an option to turn of the preposterous blurring!
I agree.
Large sharp pixels may not be beautiful to you, but large filtered pixels make me sick to the stomach.
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I haven't seen anyone else mention it (maybe I missed it) but there seems to be an inconsistency in the shadowed cobbles. In the light the rectangular tiles and cobbles are fairly close in value, but in shadow the rectangular tiles are way darker. Do you have room in the palette to bump the tiles a touch closer together? Right now it looks strange. Great work though, that needs no further stating.
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Why 5 years? :-\
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It's a massive indie game dev project.
I had a question about the shadows, they're currently quite jarring.
Are you going to have a layer overlay with a bunch of blue/purple tiles for shadows? becasue it'd be great to have some diagonally shaped shadows in those tiles :|
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As the fame coder, my vote about the blur VS non blur thing goes to...
real size :D
But heh, Adarias would kill me if there were no fullscreen...In fullscreen, I prefer non blurred stuff but I can probbaly make both available (with slowdown. Yeepee, more work for me ^^)
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i think it looks best at 2x.
if its fullscreen then i might not be able to acquire that many headache-painkillers.
*waits 5 years :0'*
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;D
After hours reading all the thread I have to congratulate you Adarias, great work...
About the fullscreen thing, if you can, make it looks pixelized even in full screen, that blur sucks...
*waits 5 years* :huh:
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i think it looks best at 2x.
agreed. that's how id have it, if i couldnt get it with blur
lacky - due to a number of edits in the sunlight tiles, the shadows no longer align themselves quite right in a few places. im going to look into that when i get a chance
zolthorg - i've toyed with the idea, and i seem to remember vaguely Fil shooting it down as a lag-inducer (and therefor a severe limiter on the size of maps). Fill, if this is not so, please chime in :P. im afraid it would make far too many (7 to be exact) tiles for each type to hand-do proper shadows :(
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Ah I had completely forgotten this shadow thing, I have a solution in mind to make it not too laggy ; I'll IM you about it =)
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Wow, me goes hiatus for months and this thing still persists.
Lovely as ever, Adarias. Mad props. :)
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Fil - Lovely! Such a system will also let us choose our shadow color based on envoronment, too, so that not all will be in the same light :D
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Fil - Lovely! Such a system will also let us choose our shadow color based on envoronment, too, so that not all will be in the same light :D
Hmm...I looked back on the weapons sheet you produced and I took a few to my fancy and started to make some visual ideas for various weapons throughout the game. Not exactly sure if you will like them. It was somewhat fun to pixelate some of these and change the physical material compounds, but anyway it was still just some breach work on ideas, and I don't know but for some reason I was thinking gold?:
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t180/Black-Hawk-Crato/Swords2.png)
Though, I decided to go a little bit past 5 min. gold masking, onto a crystal set, though because this is taking a bit longer due to detail I just wanted to ask you before hand if you would like, care to see the set. Here is a sample of how much I've gotten done with a one:
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t180/Black-Hawk-Crato/SwordBase.png)
Anyway, it's for the sake of practice that I've been doing some of this, and it's rare to come across weapon outlines.
PS: I had some time so I made some variations on the sand, color and partially detail wise.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t180/Black-Hawk-Crato/MOCKUP_desert.png)
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t180/Black-Hawk-Crato/MOCKUP_desert-1.png)
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The weapons are already planned out in terms of appearence, names, materials, and attributes.
update coming in the next few days will have overlayed shadows, so expect quite a bit of change.
in the meantime, heres a very slight update with the front-facing lasses:
(http://xs313.xs.to/xs313/07115/GMcharas.png)
quite a few corrections still need to be made though, particularly about the hats. tried to keep the uniforms similar to avoid class confusion.
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That character sheet... Oh my god...
Adarias, give me your brain, I must eat it to gain your powers.
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Wow. That's amazing Adarias.
The style, the colours, the designs, everything... :y:
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Very spectacular, just keep staring at it. (instead of working, perhaps=)
Sherman Gill, it's all in a liver, don't ask me why, but that what they go for in primitive world. Tastes yaky, I know.=)
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please don't eat my liver, i need that for living
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Adarias, this is some really awesome work you have here. It shows that you have put loooooads of effort into it. I'm very impressed. I really like everything about the characters. Lovely colour choices and very impressive amount of detail for their small sizes. Background tiles are also very interesting. You really have your own style, and I like it. I love all the houses especially.
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I really really really like the character sheets. I think they're excellently pixeled. But it's still not easy for me to group them into classes based on appearance. I think that color coordination, especially in the head/hair, would be a quick, easy way for me to group them together while looking at a diverse playing board. Things like clothing style are hard to pick out, especially at a small scale, and it's not the first thing one would pick up on.
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Damn! The new characters <jaw drops>
I have been following this thread from the start and compared to the old ones, this ones are very polished that it is shining. Beautiful detailed design and the variety of colors blends so well. You win the Internets. <saves pic> Oh and I also agree that 2x view is for the win. :y:
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Thanks everyone for the interest. If you want to read more regular updates, follow the link in ym signature to our blog.
latest breakthrough: thanks to fil's hard work this last weekend, we now have a great system for shadows! and we can change the colors :P
now way to extend the legnths or change the directions of shadows though without making separate maps. oh well.
(http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07132/ShadowsTesting.png)
still needs quite a bit of fine-tuning to get rid of gappies, but it's there.
Also, i began working on the running animation for the Paladin. He's still extremely rough, but im just putting here because i have it:
(http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07131/RunningSkirt.gif)(http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07131/RunningSkirtWeaponshapes.gif)
Also, i don't know how many saw this over at pixeljoint, and i tihnk i might have posted it here in a different thread as an example of wireframe, but i realised that it never made it all the way to this thread
(http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/full/attacktest2.gif)
still haven't addressed teh crits I got elsewhere since i hadn't heard what people over here had to say. the angles of the sword are going to change a bit and i want to change some frames around to give the sword more power (even if it is mythril and it's weight in the game is next to nothing)
I really really really like the character sheets. I think they're excellently pixeled. But it's still not easy for me to group them into classes based on appearance. I think that color coordination, especially in the head/hair, would be a quick, easy way for me to group them together while looking at a diverse playing board. Things like clothing style are hard to pick out, especially at a small scale, and it's not the first thing one would pick up on.
Colors are by team and faces are individualized, though the hats placed over these for all but the highly important characters should help bring classes together. Because of this, while i value your input, i cannot act on it in this particular case. Do you have any ideas on how to make them more distinct withinthose parameters?
(http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07132/Groups2.PNG)
Heres an idea : if anyone the feels out-of-place in these groups, could you tell me why? that way i can make them fit together better.
I really do want to solve any issues, but changing color or hairstyles isnt going to happen.
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Don't change the weight on the swords. It's a very common and very wrong misconception that swords weigh a lot. A two handed claymore was about the same weight and speed as a katana, don't be fooled by whatever Conan and japanophiles tell you...
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Gil - don't you think though that a even 4lb weapon would swing with a little more force than what's shown there? if not, ill leave it be - less work for me!
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I think it looks fine. I mean, the dude's trained to handle swordery and such suches, so I don't see why he'd have any more carry-through or wind-up than he has now (which is what I assume you mean by "more power"). He's muscley under all that armor, I bet.
BTW, red shadows look friggin awesome. Sunsety.
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Looking great.
2 things on the animations which jumped into my eyes:
The paladin looks like he is spearing the ground infront of him when running with the, well, spear.
And in that swordslash anim the shield does funny stuff when it eases back *wobbelwobbel*
Other than that, awesome stuff! :y:
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Nice animation.=)
Spear run looks a bit strange, it just not comfortable to run like that - hard to keep balance.
if I would run with a stick i'll be holding it this way.
(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/spear.gif)
From old studies:
(http://www.foolstown.com/fool/images/run.gif)
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thanks for the help you guys, ill take those ideas into account when i edit next
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In the groups, the two groups that have members with their hoods up (cloacks, i guess.) seem too mistakable for one another. Looking really great, i like the red shadows as well, the environments are looking faaaabulous.
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Also a swordsman - sword snaps back in place after the swing in sort of machine feel. Might be better if it goes slightly (subpixel) back and then return damping inertion.
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For the weight, it all depends on what you're trying to convey really. For a mythril sword, it's perfect, for a steel word I'd add a little weight, though not the Conan swing, like I mentioned.
Also, look at the spear fight in the movie Troy for spear attacks. Using a spear is not just swinging it into an enemy, it needs to be very graceful.
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Also a swordsman - sword snaps back in place after the swing in sort of machine feel. Might be better if it goes slightly (subpixel) back and then return damping inertion.
Im barely a novice animator - i barely understand what you are telling me to do. Do you mean it should linger after the swing a bit? (already planned, as well as a linger before the swing), but how would this make the return less machine?
For the weight, it all depends on what you're trying to convey really. For a mythril sword, it's perfect, for a steel word I'd add a little weight, though not the Conan swing, like I mentioned.
Also, look at the spear fight in the movie Troy for spear attacks. Using a spear is not just swinging it into an enemy, it needs to be very graceful.
Thanks for the sword help, and yeah, i really need to study before i go anywhere near the spear attack. My knowledge of spear thrusts is shit and i don't know anyone who i can learn from (usually for weapons advice i ask my art teacher, as he has an extensive collection of swords and medals won with them - though granted sporting combat is hardly the same as mortal combat)
Edit: Just fixed your tags - Panda
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Im barely a novice animator - i barely understand what you are telling me to do. Do you mean it should linger after the swing a bit? (already planned, as well as a linger before the swing), but how would this make the return less machine?
I dont know proper word for that=) I doubt i could exlpain this clear in english, but mashine and flexable human body handle inertion differently.
I dot a sword point to illustrate:
(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/spacing.gif)
Blue is spasing on yours from frames 8 to 1 and red dots - suggested spacing. Again - just a suggestion.=)
I'm talking about sword only, figure is good as is.
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Ah, now i get it, thanks!
here is my very basic understanding of the principles of a spear attack:
(http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07132/Thrust.gif)(http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07132/Thrust.png)
does anyone see anything there that isnt right? like i said i've never studied spears beyond the very basic principles and this is pikework not short spear (which i have no knowledge of at all)
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Try getting a piece of wood (a broom maybe) that has the same size of a spear and try carrying it using one hand, It's pretty difficult to carry and if someone hits the wooden *thing* you would kinda drop it, if he uses 2 hands to attack, it would be more acceptable and realistic. :y:
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Bugguy has a point. Unless, of course, there is a shield in the other hand.
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Try getting a piece of wood (a broom maybe) that has the same size of a spear and try carrying it using one hand, It's pretty difficult to carry and if someone hits the wooden *thing* you would kinda drop it, if he uses 2 hands to attack, it would be more acceptable and realistic. :y:
Have you done your research or are you just assuming spears are to heavy to fight with one handedly? Wielding a broom while not having had any lessons in spear fighting is not going to help.
Adarias:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lJacQLrDx8
The move you describe is in it, as well as a bunch of other moves. I hope it helps a bit.
Quote from Wikipedia:
Spears, although apparently simple weapons, have a remarkable variety of wielding methods. They are listed here from most passive to most active motions.
1. Holding the spear or bracing it against the ground, the enemy impales himself.
2. The spear is thrust out with the arms alone.
3. The spear is held stiffly, and the thrust is delivered by stepping forward.
4. The spear is thrust out with the arms while stepping forward with one or both feet.
5. The front hand releases as the back hand and back foot move forward to perform a long thrust.
6. The spear is slid through the front hand, propelled by the back hand. The forward foot steps forward and the back circles the body out of the line of thrust.
7. The spear is thrown, often at a run, releasing when the opposite foot to the throwing arm is forward.
8. The spear is held couched under one arm, allowing a swinging motion as well as a powerful thrust.
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Spears are not heavy. But the way that you carry it, makes it a hard task, like holding on it's end... Look at the drawing, the spear is bigger then the character...
My father used to train with a wooden pole (or staff, I dunno the correct word), 2 handed it's easy, but because of the balance carry it holding in the end is hard... I'm just pointing a possibility.
And an one handed spear attack really doesn't make it firm enough to make some damage...
(sorry if my english isn't perfect)
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Well, it's not because your dad doesn't wield his staff two-handed that spear fighters didn't fight one-handed.
I did a lot of reading on pikes lately, and apparantly the huge pikes in phalanxes were held one-handed, and those are by far the heaviest spears in history. It's all in the technique...
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Well, it's not because your dad doesn't wield his staff two-handed that spear fighters didn't fight one-handed.
I did a lot of reading on pikes lately, and apparantly the huge pikes in phalanxes were held one-handed, and those are by far the heaviest spears in history. It's all in the technique...
the doru (light pike), used by hoplite formations, were 2.5-3 m long primarily held single-handedly and used in the manner i tried to describe. Sarissas on the other hand, the double-ended 20ft pikes carried in phalanx, were also used single-handed on offense, but on defense were braced using both hands and the ground.
in europpean recorded history there have never been infantry spears designed to be used primarily with both hands. All weapons designed to be used by infantry using two hands have been blunt or have employed cutting edges, and therfor cannt be considered spears but rather staves, swords, or other polearms. Two-handed spears have always been a weapon exclusive to horsemen.
the spears here are going to be more along the lines of hastae, 1-2 m spears, since anything longer is hardly worth equipping as our men move not in formation. It does have the benefit though of having range 2 instead of 1. the difficulty like i said comes from having no understanding of short spears, but only of pikes, lances, and non-spear polearms.
again, thanks for all the help!
A question to Fil - is there any chance that we could have the greatswords reach 2 squares as well? a 4 foot sword should have the same reach as a 6 foot spear i think. both are masterclass knighly weapons so it would hadly effect the balance of things.
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I was talking about sarissas indeed. Though there seems to be a lot of discussion on the way sarissas were wielded: over-hand or under-hand.
Will the rapiers have a reach of 2? The reason longswords' use went down was mostly because of the superior reach of a rapier lunge. Maybe lunging could be a common technique for rapier fighters?
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A question to Fil - is there any chance that we could have the greatswords reach 2 squares as well? a 4 foot sword should have the same reach as a 6 foot spear i think. both are masterclass knighly weapons so it would hadly effect the balance of things.
Yup, why not.
If I can set the depth thingy for the polearms, there's no reason why I couln't have it for the swords aswell.
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Well, if you guys are sure about it that's okay... Good luck ::)
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slight update of sorts:
(http://xs514.xs.to/xs514/07140/Runner.gif) (http://xs414.xs.to/xs414/07140/Runner.gif)
(http://xs514.xs.to/xs514/07140/AnimationTests_RunningSkirt2.gif) (http://xs514.xs.to/xs514/07140/AnimationTests_RunningSkirt3.gif)
just testing the running animations, mostly cloak movement, soon i will finish these for this set unless anone sees any glaring errors
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In most tactical games a lancer or spearman has to go shieldless, but can do more damage, as the weapon is weilded two-handed, but in actuallity, there are many spears meant to be used one-handed, with a shield. The stabbing motion seems pretty down pat to me.
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In the running animation, when the arm pulls back it straightens out. I think it might be a little more natural for the arm to stay bent at the elbow the whole time.
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I'm not a great knower of sarissas, pikes etc... but Alexanders Macedonians had some kind of equipment to help them hold the lance like a rope or something, don't remember really... otherwise it would be hard to wield a such long lance together with a shield.
like the cloak movement and the overall animation is good too :y:
// Albin
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I'm not a great knower of sarissas, pikes etc... but Alexanders Macedonians had some kind of equipment to help them hold the lance like a rope or something, don't remember really... otherwise it would be hard to wield a such long lance together with a shield.
like the cloak movement and the overall animation is good too :y:
// Albin
none of the historians i talked to or books i read ever mentioned such a thing, so i'ld need to look into that. so far as i know, it was nothing but a bare hand on wood until it was planted in defense or dropped, but i dont claim to be any expert :P
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bumpdate - running animations are done for now:
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/3866/anim3qp8.gif)(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/9050/anim4at9.gif)
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7720/anim2gm3.gif)(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8927/anim1wb7.gif)
With these and a few more animations, combined with Fil's new Z-sorter testing and movement engine, it will not be long until we have a fully capable character for our tests. Moving demos are just around the corner.....
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the x movement of the actual sprite makes the run look very "jolty" - meaning i think that the character should bob up and down, but never actually move positions
esp. with characters that are cute and "light", i think minimizing the jolt in the run is key.
hope that made sense
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Since the sprite is going to move in both the x and y axis, I think that the horizontal bob has a chance of working ô _ ô
I have to see it in action to confirm though. ..
*HINT HINT*
Running demo would be SO nice :3
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it's a feeble attempt at spacing that should actually give him more life instead of less, but m only a novice so i need to tweek it some more i think.
(http://xs314.xs.to/xs314/07172/WalkingAround.gif)
personally i like the movement, but i need to smooth it out. probably i will end up making a pixel less? but it's very hard to do things evenly with 3 frames (I should have thought of that??:))
PS we have a running demo already. It's getting better to - he no longer runs inside objects ^^ but follows pass/block. I dont think well be showcasing anything tho until we get climbing, jumping, falling, etc. You can ask Fil tho if he wants to show on with just running.
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I like your work a lot Adarias, your a good learning source.... have some of your work as study materials if thats ok?
I think its good, except from the black dot when he runing... very nice :)
*** EDIT ***
about the pike thing I just wanted to mention it... I don't recomend you make the pike wielder like that.... don't know if its true though..... have it in my Audio book about Alexander the great if I'm right....
anyway keep up the good work :y:
//Albin
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It doesn't seem like he's running isometrically (2 x for each y)... If he is, i'd recommend making him move slower (less spacial displacement, not frame duration).
There's a lot of jumpiness which i find a bit discomfortable to look at, i think it would benefit from more inbetweens.
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I'd analyze it more in depth but right now I get the feeling that he's running like a small kid, gleefully stuttering forward.
Not the feeling we'd want for a warrior D; I'll try to come up with something more constructive since the runs work so well as still images, but when the character moves about, something happens õ __ õ
Can't get my head around it, better crits coming up, probably.
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he's running like a small kid, gleefully stuttering forward.
Not the feeling we'd want for a warrior D;
Who is we? lol, surely you aren't speaking on behalf of the developers ^^
We've pretty much come to the conclusion that cuter is better (ever since the redesign of the characters in september) since it's a game meant to appeal to RPG fans (dark, gritty rpg's tend to be less well recieved. look at ff8 for example, even with its not tooooo gritty stuff, people just were turned off by the fact that people weren't superdeformed) instead of strategy fans (who really like them their dark and gritty). Well be keeping the storyline and dialogs serious, but the characters and cities will be nice and bright and final-fantasy/mario cutesy. Its fun to draw and we pull in more people.
As far as why it looks that way, im guessing its mostly the superdeformed round shapes, and maybe 10-20% the actual animation of it.
if we can make it better and cuter, then im all for it :P
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I don't really like the x movement of the sprite. It does make it seem jittery, in my opinion.
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Actually it's all about the animation. You can make an SD sprite move all determined and menacing and adult simply by making the moves sharper, smaller and more controlled. A run without much arm movement, perhaps one arm a bit in front of the face to shield from folliage and sticks and whatever, and not much bounce, head down. As a soldier would run around.
I agree that right now, though the animation is good, it's very 'whee! catch me daddy!'. An SD character doesn't have to act 8 years old too, does he?
(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7720/anim2gm3.gif)(http://www.locustleaves.com/anim2gm3edit.gif)
sorry about head remapping strangely, whatever you're using to animate has different palettes for each frame, promotion doesn't like this in combination with copy and pasting.
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yeah i had to make the animation on a public computer, i think i used unfreeze because it doesnt need to install. I have my own back now though with all my programs, which is sweet.
That edit is not a significant change of style, and it definitely feels like a soldier. I will need to talk to Fil about whether we want to go completely kiddylike or more half-and-half like your edit, tbh im torn so it's his vote that matters most ^^.
Thanks!
EDIT : Fil prefers the feel of the old one, but we've gotten rid of the horizontal motion and may tweak a little bit more too.
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Just a note that comparing helm's edit and the original side-by-side, the first feels very unexperienced and carefree, which usually isn't a quality you'd want in a soldier or any game that is battle-oriented.
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Just a note that comparing helm's edit and the original side-by-side, the first feels very unexperienced and carefree, which usually isn't a quality you'd want in a soldier or any game that is battle-oriented.
We understand that, yup.
We have also made a decision to take the cute carefree approach to the graphics ^^ :
(http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/1079/hellodeathqk4.jpg)
got rid of the horizontal movement:
(http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3881/2nohk9.gif) (http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7783/2nezu8.gif)
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/1866/2soug7.gif) (http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/5033/2segd1.gif)
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Time for a small bumpdate. I think the title screen was posted on this board some months ago but the animation has been redone yesterday.
Even tough the isn't pixel art, I'm sure we could receive some valid crits on it so let's go :
http://fil.razorback.free.fr/Partisan/Pixelation_title.html (483 kb)
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(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7783/2nezu8.gif)
I challenge Adarias to make a silluette of this animation and then tell me it makes sense.
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(http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7783/2nezu8.gif)
I challenge Adarias to make a silluette of this animation and then tell me it makes sense.
it looks like he's punching his helmet with his left hand... or atleast he swings it like crazy... also, it's hard to be able to see what that foot is doing there at one frame. I would dl and slow speed it, but I'm lazy >D
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Moving away from the animations, I think the vastly different designs for male/female sprites isn't helping the clarity of your classes.
If it isn't possible to individualise them through exclusion (males can become classes females can't, and vice versa) then I think you need to make the differences in their design less pronounced. Giving them the same design, but a different idle pose could do this quite nicely. Give the girls a stance that shows off their curves.
I say this because rather than easily distinguising between sex through your current designs, the different sexes in some cases look as different to each other as one class and another, without clearly being male or female. Because of this, if you made the designs more unifrom, you could use some of the headwear designs of the females to distinguish better between like classes. This would be particularly useful within the warrior classes, where all their helmets are the same, save for some slightly different ornimentation.
Just some ideas, hope they help. Keep up the good work.
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id rather not make the genders particularly pronounced tbh, and im certainly not going to be showing off the girls sexuality >.<. Ill see what i can do, though.
could you possibly highlight some problematic classes? this is one fo the problems i have all the time - the classes and genders are very visible to me as the designer.
Here is an image with them all jumbled to make pairing a little harder. Are there any that you really cannot put together?
(http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1526/jumblevq9.png)
About the image - I cannot tell you that the sillhouette reads well, but - particularly with the cloak - im not experienced to know how to make it so.
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I made a quick edit and I really think you should lower the arm/hands on the back perspective. That's how it looks like for me when you compare it to the front view
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/1866/2soug7.gif) (http://xs115.xs.to/xs115/07183/2nezu8lowerarm.gif)
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I made a quick edit and I really think you should lower the arm/hands on the back perspective. That's how it looks like for me when you compare it to the front view
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/1866/2soug7.gif) (http://xs115.xs.to/xs115/07183/2nezu8lowerarm.gif)
wow, that's simple and really effective. thanks!
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I'd suggest to check a spacing on arms - perhaps pretty quick(messy, time shortage) edit=)
(http://www.foolstown.com/misc/28.gif)
I concentrate on readability - shoulders swing is really drastic to the right side.
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I'll be referring to the classes from this sheet, as it's a lot clearer and easier to indicate off:
http://xs113.xs.to/xs113/07132/Groups2.PNG
I'll refer to the groups as 1-8 starting at 12 o'clock, and going clockwise.
G1:
The bottom right pair is a perfect example of how it should be done. Immediately recogniseable as male/female and clearly the same class.
The other two designs are a perfect example of what you shouldn't do. The plumage, and shapes of the hats match between genders of different classes, but not with the same class. Basically, switch the girls' hats around. Otherwise, these two classes do a very good job of distinguishing between male/female.
G2:
Far left work fine.
Female on the far right is very easy to confuse with the bottom most class, and you really have to look at her male partner to spot the similarities in costume. Give her the same type of hat as the male, with a ponytail sticking out the back.
Top and Bottom of this group do a reasonable job of differentiating themselves from each other, but you could easily give the top set only the male headwear, and the bottom the female, or vice versa.
My final problem with this group, is that in the top two classes, the females of the pairs are much more heavy set.
G3:
This group is fine in terms of distinguishing the various classes, from one another, but there's very little to no disambiguation between gendre types.
G4:
One of your best groups. A cross somewhere on the female medic's design might not go amiss, but it's not necessary. :y:
G5:
Best group you have. The left most female's hat could be pixelled better, but all the classes, and genders are easily readable.
G6:
One of the most problematic groups. Apart from the right most couple, it's almost impossible to distinguish between sexes, save for from that tiny slither of hair.
The left most, and top most both have near identical costume designs, and to someone unfamiliar with the game, the left most pair could easily be mistaken for male versions of the top most pair. For clarification's sake, give one pair the peak helmet, and the other the flat guard.
G7:
Great group. My only suggestion is to make the bottom left female's cape match her partner's. If you're swapping palettes, she could easily be confused for the class directly above her.
G8:
Top and bottom are fine, left and right are not. A simple fix would be to design the right most female's headwear more like her male counterpart's.
General comments:
I've noticed the female's are more readable when their neck area is less cluttered. Consider experimenting with dropping the shoulders a pixel, on the female varients of the heavily armoured classes.
There's A LOT of purple throughout the entire cast, and that isn't helping in distinguishing between classes.
Hope I've helped.
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wow, thanks! that was really in-depth ^^. expect at least a few updates fairly soon, i will try to take as many of those things into account (and experiment with some other possible changes as well)
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id rather not make the genders particularly pronounced tbh, and im certainly not going to be showing off the girls sexuality >.<. Ill see what i can do, though.
Honestly, I tried grouping that jumbled image into classes and I had a tough time. I tried grouping by shoes, clothes and hats, but they seemed to overlap. As a gameplayer, I'm looking at the heads to see what class they're in. It's the part of the body that's most visible to me, and most pronounced at a glance when I'm scanning over a crowd. If two people of different classes are wearing the same hats, it's going to be confusing to me. I think a strategy game should have an instantly recognizable trait that pairs each character with a team or class--and this trait should be the same type throughout (e.g. Blue hats vs. red hats, not blue hats vs. red capes) .
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im not sure i follow your example fak. the blue/red combo is not a real army combo in the same way that no character will have green hair, it's just to keep the color regions separated on the master sheet. Most teams will have things like warm red and cool red, or brown vs khaki, blue and teal, etc.
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little bumbdate - working a bit more on the grass
not really a mockup on the left there, just things pasted fairly close to each other. Pink plants are very WIP
(http://xs115.xs.to/xs115/07202/GrassTest.png)
any thoughts?
Still working on rearranging the groups, i've made myself some trouble by chaning body types based on class and giving the heavy-hitters broader shoulders etc. but whatever, ill cope
Faceless thanks again in particular your last comment about the neck region - i can't believe how far clearing that out goes to making the girls more like girls
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I like it, nice work.
I would try to be consistant in my lighting if I were you though.
Don't get me wrong, the purple-blue shadow on the rock looks great, but the side of the ramp is shaded entirely differently.
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I like it, nice work.
I would try to be consistant in my lighting if I were you though.
Don't get me wrong, the purple-blue shadow on the rock looks great, but the side of the ramp is shaded entirely differently.
first - thanks :P
second - yeah, some things are left over from when shadows were pixelled on instead of added dynamically. i need to spend some time removing the shadows from things now >.< but at least it gives me something to do ^^
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not a tremendous amount to show right now (we've been concentrating on balancing, writing, and searching for the flash drive that has my files on it)
this is kinda important though - the hero character's sprite:
(http://xs317.xs.to/xs317/07304/Roarc.png)
as always, green hair is not real color and the style is also up to the player. also, the red and blue may change as well based on player input (black and sandy-tan is my favorite combo so far, followed closely by white and mauve)
the question here is - would you play as a hero character dressed as this? what would you rather see in the character, if you could? Are you willing to accept this outfit as one meant for a benevolent liberator as readily as you would accept it for a cold, heartless warmonger (knowing that you can change his colors and hair)?
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hrm, personally I need to see a symbol.
This is just some guy with fancy clothes, a warmonger character would be just as boring and desentizing for me. Put something in him that is NOT interchangeable, it's ok to let the player decide the exact way his hero is gonna look, but there must be SOME ideal he stands for, if he is to be a hero. Chose a way to visualize what this guy represents and design a way to visualize it, put something in there that reminds you WHY this guy is going to save the world (or whatever) every time you look at him.
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It would be great to have every class have one thing that is a symbol of what they are.
It could be done with body language too. The hero could hold one arm over his/her chest as a sign of his/her ideals.
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The thing that kinda stands out to me is how plain the whole thing seems to look outfit wise. I think it needs a little more flare personally. Mainly in the front stances, the backs look really nice, but then you get to the front and it just looks like another one of the mercenaries you've posted. If he's supposed to be the hero, make him stand out a little more. Don't ask me how to do such a thing, but I think this character would benefit from such a thing.
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I agree with conceit, some kind of emblem on his chest would be good. Maybe a necklace or a ribbon or something, that you can just notice when you're looking at your characters and know that that one is the main dood. I don't really have any more input than that unfortunately, but i'm sure you'll come up with somethin. Good luck :y:
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A necklace or something I can do, but I'm really at a loss for what else to try.
This pose is the frame off which all others will be based; it's just a base. Body language will find its way into him, but not at this early stage.
Within the realm of what a warrior in this fake time and place might wear,
The trouble I am having is that this character is supposed to essentially be the player, so he stands for whatever the player wants him to stand for.
As far as the update, I can't help but feel that i've taken one step back without ever going forward :
(http://xs317.xs.to/xs317/07304/Roarc.png)(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07304/Roarc.png)
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Damnit you got in just before me with an update the point i was going to make was that the front leg looked like he was wearing a different boot then the back in both forward facing views but you fixed it. So you certainly haven't "taken one step back without ever going forward". In fact the colour of the legging/tunic increases readability though I did like the gritty look of a mesh/metal to the legging as was implied prior the update. The gloves removal makes me sad :( as hefty gloves look cool, but thats just my opinion. Unfortunately your update quashed the majority of my critique. Though the gold band on the furthest leg when facing forward looks too bright to me. I had noticed that the light seems to be striking between his legs a tad too much, in part responsible for the different boot look I mentioned earlier. I hope you can take something from my ridiculous rant. :)
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opinion nothing, i liked the gloves too :p
(http://xs317.xs.to/xs317/07304/Roarc.png) (http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8469/roarcvj2.png) (http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07304/Roarc.png)
happier medium?
Also, this is not the only outfit the character will wear. He begins by wearing plain clothes and then a simple sailor's outfit, and it isn't until the second of four chapters that he dresses this way (pretending to be of nobility to proceed with the story). During the third and fourth chapters too his outfit will change as will that of a few other characters to represent his changing station (poor kid - poor sailor - poor kid pretending to be a noble - promoted within chosen faction - total badass)
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opinion nothing, i liked the gloves too :p
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8469/roarcvj2.png)
This one. This makes him look more like he's faking noble. The added little flap of colour just emphasizes that MUCH better in the front stances in my opinion. I can't wait to see his other outfits. Beggar/Poor kid should be cool.
Also, I must say this is easily THE most anticipated project I've ever watched be developed. I just love tactics games, and this is no exception.
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(http://lorne.lastchancemedia.com/Images/TricksandCrits/AdariasHero.png)
He ist PROUD!
Being that he's the main character, he should be proud and courageous, no? Right now he looks rather apathetic.
Also, an advantage to this is that it adds character, with just one frame of animation.
ALSO: Keep the gloves.
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Meh, i think he looks focussed enough atm, I'm not a fan of overly proud characters (it is a sin after all) and I'm not really good enough to know how to put confidence into a character without making him obnoxious (if i pick up the shoulders and bend the arms he just looks like a jerk instead of a hero). Characters like Ash from vandal hearts just annoy me to no end.
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Another problem with making him look too proud is that when it comes to a serious plot issue or a character death he is going to look a little smug with his hands resting on his hips as oppose to emoting what he should. Given the hero is going to be present throughout the game, unless you plan on adding a few emotion stances for cut scenes I would go for an apathetic look and do all the emotions in the characters speaking portrait. I'm a fan of the gloved one also :P.
I made a little edit, the back foot still seems a little off to me, from all angles except forward both toe caps seem rounded but in the forward facing frames his back foot looks like it has a very pointed tip. You seem to have covered most of the lighting issues that were bugging me with his back leg though.
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7239/legagainmj7.png)
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ah, thanks for point out that foot thing, i had not noticed but man it was ugly :P
tiny update, here is a possible "roarc" that the player might choose (if they like blond guys with wicked bangs wearing green) Placeholder rear-facing hair is not actually for the same headtype :\
Also, some other characters that I am testing out. So far a major problem I can see is that the second lord knight's (purple cloak) head does not fit, that will be fixed soon enough...
(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Roarcs.png)(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Auguste.png)(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Darius.png)(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Charset_Characters_Pietr_1.png)
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First of all I've been following this thread for a while and I love this work, it's brilliant! Keep it up!
Now for the mean part: It looks to me like the biggest issue here is the amount of detail you're trying to cram into these tiny sprites. I tend to be a detail freak, but particularly with your main character, there are some severe readability issues going on. At 2x it takes a while to figure out what he's supposed to be wearing, and at 1x it's pretty much illegible. I think of these characters, by far the most successful one is the little guy with the long red coat. Instead of having fifty zillion different colors and little details you gave him one or two very iconic, recognizable features that people can notice right away, and a much more simple color scheme that makes him very readable.
Also, this is more of a personal preference but you might want to try giving your main characters more unique hairstyles too. It could be as simple as the one stray lock of hair that the character in Final Fantasy Tactics has. But some might say that's a cheap way of making recognizable characters.
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Since the character can choose the appearance, he can choose from any of the 8 (possibly more later) regular hairstyles available and a couple of the short beards. However, once a hairstyle is chosen for the main character, it gets "locked" in that no other character can take that hairstyle.
As for readability - these are not meant to be seen at low sizes, else i would not include the level of details they have. What resolution do you have? your 1x and 2x could be half the size of mine. I find than an appropriate size for these guys is about 3cm high on my screen (2x for my res), and I have no trouble (at all) telling what they wear, nor do passersby. Based on the very specific references to the pieces of clothing people have made, I can only assume that this is not a widespread problem.
The game also is meant to be played either on extremely clear monitors (a decent LCD) or for CRT users (and just oldschool fans in general), a fullscreen version. Even on a *very* blurry resizing to what is on my computer full screen (8/3rds of the original size), it remains pretty clear to me.
(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Scaling.png)
With that in mind, does it still have readability issues? More importantly, do other users have readability issues?
In other news, I've half given up looking for a portraitist, so I have decided to go with the ultra-simple ultra-cliche manga style for the faces; i'm not proud but it's what we can do, it fits with the sprites, and it still has pretty good mass appeal.
Here is my first WIP of a particularly boyish face with 2 of the different hairstyles on the set
(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Faces.PNG)
Portraits will be made of a base shape (same shape for all), a hairstyle, a mouth and chin style (includes beards), a nose style, and an eye style. each mouth and eye style *may* end up with variants to deal with emotion, depending on what Fil wants. I know it's popular but i find that changing portraits with emotion = tacky and that it actually robs dialogue of it's value by drawing attention the face instead of the writing and the actual situation, cramming a myriad of emotions into 3-4 different images *just in case* the player didn't know that the character was angry at the bad guy. [/rant]
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To be honest, the portrait looks more like a girl to me.
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boyish = young; in anime, teenage boys are girly and teenage girls are rediculously girly. adult guys will be much less androgynous :P.
here's how a girl with the same hairstyle (on her a bit tomboyish) might look : (http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07305/Compare.PNG)
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Next time don't make your blog french cause results are awesome, I love the style in the sprites.
Now on that portrait the light on the hair seems to come more from the front according to the light on the face and shoulders, there its more like directly right (viewers) - if you would reshade the face on a more front angled lightbulb, like is on the hair, It should give nice results ;P
Nonetheless the jawline should be shown a slight tad stronger, the hear is plain incorrect whilst looking at anatomy, and you should take notice of the fact that anime knows a really wide variaty in style and that some are more realistic than other. I personally prefer the latter :P
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Looks male to me.
The ear is horribly misplaced though.
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Jesus christ stop it no no no resampling no no no no nooononon
(yes there are readability issues. Simplify.)
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Jesus christ stop it no no no resampling no no no no nooononon
i'm just posting as examples, relax, there's only one image being worked on :P
slight update trying to fix problems in the sketch boefre they become problems in the product. Manned him up a bit too, the youngest fighters are 17, which a bit off historically, i should be taking from about 15 and older for any war fought before 1850, but raising the age limit is nothing compared to magic and robots :P.
(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07306/face3.PNG)
anime knows a really wide variaty in style and that some are more realistic than other.
Yeah, but for something that I am not partiuclarly inclined to, it's more sensible at this point to practise the better stuff and put the more practical way into use. As long as it isn't sub-par, it doesn't need to be stellar if that takes too much time away from the things I can execute properly. It's really a question of "in what ways will this detract least from the project" and I think that this is the best way to go: fairly quick and presentable.
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Then again you could look at it as a learning procedure primarily and put the effort needed into using a more realistic style if you so desire regardless of whether this slows down production of a game that you're making on your free time anyway. The game may come out or may not, but the anatomy and aesthetic knowledge will stick with you forever.
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That is a viable way of doing things, but it is more productive and educational for me to separate this from my hardcore practises, which have hardly ceased, and it's not as though sticking to a faster, simpler style is effortless, or even better known to me: the fundamentals of portraits are still a part of this, and still something I need to work on. This style is much farther outside my "comfort zone" than a realistic portrait, it just happens to be a much faster way of working as well as a well-established format for videogame portraits. Also, because this is for the most part pretty monotonous, it is far better for me to keep practising with fresh subjects rather than do 30 practises of the same style. By doing a larger number of faster portraits, I spend more time thinking and less time fuddling with a set that will not look much better if I did it another way, and I maximize time spent not doing these, which can be much better spent doing a broader set of exercises, which in turn will help me when I do these.
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This is exactly the sort of thing that annoys me. There is nothing wrong with the style of this portrait. It isn't even totally derivative of your typical throwaway anime, so I don't know why that is even being brought up. Shouldn't we be trying to help Adarias to improve what he is trying to make rather than telling him to make something different? Sure if it was horrible, point him in the direction of some tutorials; but this isn't. Make an edit and let him decide if he likes that direction better but don't outright tell him how to do it, or that one style of anime is better than another. These are subjective things. It is the talent behind the style and not the style itself that will dictate the quality of the result.
Let's also bear in mind the style of the sprites themselves. They are not realistic and don't attempt to be. These portraits will suit them better than realism or realistic anime ever will.
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The game may come out or may not, but the anatomy and aesthetic knowledge will stick with you forever.
This should go in the tao of pixel-art thread, but alas faceless is right.
I dont know much about anime portraits if much about portraits at all. I will save my critique for the pixelled product.
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The game may come out or may not, but the anatomy and aesthetic knowledge will stick with you forever.
This should go in the tao of pixel-art thread
I second that movement, it's always a good thing to keep in mind. My only reason for not following it in this specific case is that drudgery is not necessarily to the best way of learning. If i were doing 1 or 2 of these instead of dozens, it would be a great learning experience to really push the envelope.
Feron - looking forward to your crits later :P
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I wasn't telling Adarias what he was making is bad and he needs a different style. He's the one who is not happy with the banality of the chosen style, but sticks to it for workflow reasons. I am more interested in seeing Adarias become a better artist than I am in seeing Partisan Tactics get finished in a timely manner.
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I am more interested in seeing Adarias become a better artist than I am in seeing Partisan Tactics get finished in a timely manner.
Like I said, these are not mutually exclusive goals ::). If there is a good enough reason to spend twice the time doing the same exercise over and again instead of branching out and pursuing other ideas in that same time, I'd be more than ready to drop the mundane stuff ^^
OH and mostly OT, but since so many people have asked here and on other sites, we have reached a point in production where we can set a highly tentative release date for this game for early 2010, god willing. A ways away I know, but for 3 guys working out of their pockets, it actually involves a pretty rigorous process ^^. As always, we are more than willing to talk to skilled people about joining the team. Additional members may reduce production time by months apiece.
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Adarias,you're overrendering the hair. I think you should be aiming for something nearer to Fire Emblem style for that:
(edit) http://www.mobygames.com/game/gameboy-advance/fire-emblem-the-sacred-stones/screenshots/gameShotId,112656/ (http://www.mobygames.com/game/gameboy-advance/fire-emblem-the-sacred-stones/screenshots/gameShotId,112656/)
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yeah that color range is only what is used to define which colors will be replaced, like with the sprites. The values are suject to change and the whole thing will be done over properly once this moves past the sketching stages. I can't see you image but my memory of FE is that the hair (and everything else in the game) is highly underrendered and simplified, so whatever reference you posted I probably won't go as far as what it might have been, but the ranges will be closer like the colored sprites you see.
Edit: (http://www.somebits.com/~nelson/weblog-files/centerimages/fireEmblem2.png) is what i think of when i tihnk of FE; no value range at all
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Made an edit, to give you some idea... I find the character's look a bit awkward with that pose and the last image was rotated to have a straight body.
I really think anime inspired portraits fits here because look at the sprites, they are cute and sd'ish in manner.
(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07306/adariashero5.PNG)
And yeah I understand what Helm is saying here, as this might change your style in the end. Perhaps you can make a compromise making older characters leaning more on the realistic side.
Also try making different poses with the head leaning like a bit \, then straight |, and then leaning a bit there / like that in the fire emblem image you posted so you got some variety.
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Oh, sorry - Mobygames's fault, or mine for direct linking. I ought to know better.
EDIT:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/tocky/1117728100-00.png)
photobucket'd
which I think is much closer to what you're trying to do. I'm not really fond of the vibrant technicolour hair on most of FE's main characters. I mean you should be aping the way they break up strands/bunches of hair, the texture, I guess - not the way they pick colours.
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I never said anime wouldnt fit as it totally does looking at the sprite style.
That goes for many games btw - nonetheless, there's anime... and anime.
PS: Your first edited version is best I think.
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Ah I was addressing that to everyone Trev, btw are you from wot boards?
Adarias,
I noticed something...how many hair styles do you have for each male and female sprites?
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PS: Your first edited version is best I think.
Hah, which one was that now?
I noticed something...how many hair styles do you have for each male and female sprites?
ATM the "doll" characters (hero and random enemies/npc's) are 8 hairstyles for each, and "story" characters (anyone who isn't one of those) all have unique faces (with that leaning in different directions and such). We have room though for 16 hairstyles. Currently too we have 12 hair colors and a few skin colors, which will help break it up, and we plan on having at least 5 eyes, noses, and mouths per gender, with the males also having beards available.
Froli - your edit looks a little too pushed back to me, like he's confused, though I think i will try out that taller face idea.
tocky - i'm still not sure what you mean exactly. FE imo has pretty bad texturing of the hair. The hair for these faces will of course be textured, all i've done so far is lay down lights, but FE does an aweful lot of vague, lumpy work in the hair that makes it too simplified and a bit like a wargame miniature.
Edit: i take that back, even at 25mm wargaming figures are actually more detailed http://www.weetoysoldiers.com/hosted/2005-12-30_G3_08309_gabriel_1200x.jpg
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@Froli:
Yes, have been there, then my friend showed me this board and I went here as it is 1. more active and 2. way more useful and faster to learn new stuff :D
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Mini update - things are starting to be refined, mostly on his left our right, made the 4th hair color in between the 2nd and 3rd instead of getting brighter. I also gave him some placeholder clothes because he was making me feel cold:
(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07306/Face9.PNG)
BTW froli, i pretty much lifted your guy's eye, hope you don't mind. The pose in your latest edit though, if i try to mimick it it pinches my windpipe in a pretty uncomfortable way. People really don't pull their chins in like that unless they have to ^^
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Ah yes, I'm starting to like it alot more now :P
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The blue on that gives a pen and ink quality to the piece that I would love to see in the rest of the portraits <3. I agree that froli's edit seemed a tad pushed back, however, he captured the the look that I'd expect most fighter types to have on their faces without looking constipated. I like the direction you're going, but your character looks more uncomfortable than interesting at the moment I'm really liking the hair, BTW.
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Alright, am working with those tihngs in mind :P.
Slightly off-topic update, the swords icons as they will appear :
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07313/Sowrds3.png)
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Those are some fun weapons. Full of character. The greenish/orange weapon stands out too much to me. Not because of it's abnormal coloration but because it manages to lose a lot of depth because of it.
My particular favorite of the lot is the rainbowy sword 3rd row, 3rd column. You really crammed a lot of colors in there. :)
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I just want to clarify something although it's probably irrelevant by now.
By symbol I did not mean Emblem.
I meant something like snake's bandana. Or Cloud's freakin humongous sword. something that makes this hero THE HERO.
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Yeah, I know what you mean, I'm just not sure what to use. The necklace doesn't read well enough and although I thought a while ago about a bandana it seems a little cliche. I thought about weapons as well, but unlike a guest character, the hero is really whatever the player makes him, so i wouldn't want to restrict them to one weapon type.
So really atm, the only really identifying features are the outfit (unique to him) and the hair-shape (locked after the player choses one)
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since im on page 2, i guess it's ok to bumpdate :P. Mod almighty strike me down if not ^^
Fil has been doing the non-pixel work for all of these menus in photoshop and flash
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07324/Testing3.png)
trying out equipments; face is still a placeholder (will probably include more of the shoulders, he's a little too far down in the corner there) as is the equipment displayed on the sprite itself
Equipment : Mythril Sword, Mythril Plate, Mythril Boots, Kite Shield, Amaranth (Boutonniere)
Only thing I'm not so happy with ATM is the shield and the sprite's sword, i'll probably end up going for something less shiny for the shield and change the angle of the sword to fit better in the hand
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Allright, now fix your blog in english :P
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All of the posts by myself or Fil (ruddy text and black text, respectfully) are in English. Navy text, our composer, are pretty straightforwards - click the link to listen to the latest version of whatever song he's posted.
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Wow, that menu is sexy. I agree that the sword angle should be changed, but I think the sheild is fine. If anything I might tinker with the shape a bit..
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Ya, the sword should definitely point more towards the ground.
Pity this is in flash, Flash is so sluggish and this probably wouldn't run on my computer :(
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http://partisan-tb.blogspot.com/
no english at the main page already =P
oh well, I sh ouldnt nag, its an awesome looking project
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thusfar we've not seen it fall below 20FPS on the heavy tests with half a dozen of other apps open (like AIM and Photoshop.... we see how much abuse it will take).
There's little doubt that we will have some rough patches that we'll have to pretend don't exist ("concentrating" before unleashing the flashing skills, etc.)
One thing I should mention is that the maps are not going to be huge, which should help quite a bit. The largest are 30x30 and we are working on ways to reduce the lag.
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07325/meh.JPG)
This map is as high as it gets and about a quarter of the horizontal space, and it still shows good time in the editor (which is highly intensive).
Trevorius - look around for god's sake.
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(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07306/Face9.PNG)(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Facey.png)(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Phooey.png)
Having troubles; one of those things where you do a lot of work but don't really see it paying off :\
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Hmmm.. this is a litell too big for me to read.... so here is a stupid question:
Is this an RPG game that you are working on?
If yes, when can I play it :P
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I dunno Adarias, I think you might be overthinking the hero's face. Your first rendition is the most attractive (at least to my eyes) and the other two seems squished and awkward. Perhaps you should take a small break from it (if you haven't already) and recharge your batteries.
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I like the newest one a lot - if the face was broadened just a tad, I think it'd be a stronger piece. i know you're going skinny stylewise, but a few more pixels of width between the eyes especially would give you a fine base i think!
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(http://xs217.xs.to/xs217/07306/Face9.PNG)(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Facey.png)(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Phooey.png)
Having troubles; one of those things where you do a lot of work but don't really see it paying off :\
(http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/8670/yesnoxn4.png)
Maybe something cleaner like this?
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I think it looks good even if I'm not too much of a fan of Ragnarok (looks like it too me) but i think the doctor and master surgeon should have a bit lighter cloths like more white? but thats just me. Good work.
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Yeah, part of the trouble is that I already did take time away from it, working on tiles and characters....I have 5 days to put a TON of stuff together and can't put everytihng off until i feel like working :P
I know that fifty million Elvis fans can't all be wrong, but I just dont see the appeal of pulling the face down like that? He looks mid-chew...
Trying to take something from all the edits and suggestions though :
(http://xs318.xs.to/xs318/07330/Phooey1.png)
Blue: Thanks, though there's a thing with the brightness where they will look plenty white when you play the game. I've explained it a few places, basically if you make everything slightly darker, then gray looks white, allowing you to make special effects like fire "brighter than white". If we get through later builds with full functions and think the characters need to reahc brighter colors, we'll give them a kick then. So far the characters have worked fine against sand, grass, brown stone, and then all the stuff you see in that town mockup, but this is still only......1 mostly full tileset we've tested :P.
People mention RO alot, which strikes me as funny because when it comes down to it the similarities are few and far between. I'm certainly not offended though :P.
Sab - it's a tactics RPG, we're estimating 2010 for release.
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Nah, style clash of deth. Manga eyes, semi-realistic textured mouth. The nose looks disembodied, it's not attached to the face... Reapproach. Faceless's elvis edit at least is clean. Clean is good in this case. Maybe the dithering has to go, m..
I'd go realistic, personally, and dither and whatnot. Bot right now you're sitting in the middle of the bridge and there's lots of people that want to pass from both ways and you're inconviniencing them!
Extra: ear shape lacks earlobe (and earlobe curve) some ears are like that, but not all ears are like that.
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Another simplified take on the guy.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/huzba/partisandood.png)
I like the direction faceless is taking it, has some character.
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aaaand here's a semirealistic one for the lineup.
(http://www.locustleaves.com/Phooey1.png)
edit: though my take makes the green har hilarious by stepping outside of the anime paradigm. The dude has eyebrows of natural color and RADIOACTIVE GREEN hair. It makes no sense!!
huzba: your version is the worst so far imo, all the facial features have been pulled down and off-center.
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Heh, yeah the green hair (a palette thing) does look funny the more you go towards realism. Luckily nobody in the game will have anything but a natural hair color.
Around here I am one of the few people I know with detached lobes; something about a population made entirely of germans and italians means that very few of us have them (I'm a scot, and therefor the only good ethnicity :P)
So much to think about.......
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Phooey4.png)
Trying to go clean (faceless) but still have some nice blending, set the nose back (helm), simplified the mouth (huZba) and realigned the eyes towards the player (my own idea, thought it would make more interesting).
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The mouth is too straight, I don't think the bright pink really works, and the chin area is very strangely rendered.
The darker skin tone shaped like a shark fin is really throwing thing off... looks like he has a roll of fat on the side of his face.
I don't think you should stick solely to real hair colours; crazy colours will help to set units apart from each other.
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It is rather straight, but I've been having trouble putting in one that isn't straight that still looks ok. Personally I think that incredibly pulled-down mouth on yours is pretty rediculous.
We aren't doing crazy haircolors. Nature provides enough shades.
I'd need to see what other people say about the chin, it reads fine to me.
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Hate to tell you this, but I based my mouth off the outline of yours. :P
The far side is the side that is furthest from our view. That is his right side, and thus i'm suggesting that you pull that side up to match the curve of his face, and not down.
As for the hair, do what you like, I was just pointing out a reason why you might want to use crazy colours.
It's harder to differentiate between blonde and brown than it is brown and green.
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Hate to tell you this, but I based my mouth off the outline of yours. :P
Yeah i realised that, but you changed the angle of the face too so that it ended up going from / to | without reangling the mouth to correspond ^^
I might pull it up slightly but the other nice thing about the straightish line is how clean it is.
Took a look on my sister's notebook and daaaang, that pink is a lot brighter on a different monitor! On my regular screen i'd consider it an accent, but on hers it's koolade. Ill tone it down.
If we have trouble identifying characters, we may end up including different colors; it's not like it hasn't been done before. We'd prefer though to stick to naturals as long as we are able to.
The fact of the matter is that most of the things I have the knee-jerk "no!" reaction to, I come around to in the end, like the new character shading, dynamic shadows, unique outfits for the hero, new menu system based on rings....the list goes on :P
Oh also just for clarification, this portrait is not necessarily the hero, though I certainly will be taking these features for MY hero. The player is allowed to pick their own eyes, nose, mouth (+some beards), hair (+color), and skin color. Fil's money is on a lot of players taking the 3rd punkish hairdoo and a short beard. Old eyes, noses, and Long beards aren't available for the hero, he's young:
Chapter 1 (a tiny fraction of the story - 17 turns 18 over the winter between chapters)
Chapter 2 (perhaps a third of the story - 18 turns 19 between chapters)
Chapter 3 (the lion's share of the story - 19 turns 20 during the chapter)
Chapter 4 (about as long as the first - game ends he is still 20)
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Faces.png)
Current radishes (faces designed for recoloring by skin and hair color) and unique characters. Many of those to do still of course, but differentiating isn't so hard thusfar. Beards, an additional layer to consider for males, are also not shown here.
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Wow, this is all looking amazing! :o
Great job.
The portrait is improving a lot. I made a little edit that might help you improve it:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x145/dragonrc_/Phooey5.png)
Most of the changes are just little random changes.
I changed the ear and the left side of the face. I also edited the nose, the mouth and the eyes a little bit.
I hope it helps
edit:
Couldn't help myself to stop meddeling with the portrait ::)
Here is my second edit:
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x145/dragonrc_/Phooey7.png)
Lost a lot of contrast, but I don't think it turned out that bad.
I managed to reduce the colorcount a bit.
Again some little edits everywhere. But mainly on the left side of the face and in the nose area.
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huzba: your version is the worst so far imo, all the facial features have been pulled down and off-center.
Care to elaborate? Cause i'm seriously not seeing what's wrong. Maybe you've been looking at the guy for too long or i'm going blind. The smaller face does make the hair seem bigger in proportion or something, but big hair isn't exactly unheard of when talking about anime dudes. Also your realistic dude has somewhat well done individual facial features, but they together make for quite an unattractive character. I think so far Froli's edit one page back is the most handsome one.
Anyway, here's what i see in the edit i did. I usually see my own mistakes if someone points them out, but this time i'm perplexed. I'm worried if there's still some lingering bugs that i need to get out of my brain... you know, a bug with seeing things fine even if something's wrong.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/huzba/lolwut.png)
Sorry if it's getting too OT
So back to the latest edits uuh i think it's going to a good direction. Maybe some more detail for the mouth since he has a detailed nose. Sharper expression too if he's going to be something other than a sissy boy about to get a beating.
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Actually huZba you've pushed everytihng way down and shrunken the head unnaturally under the hair; why would he have that big of a cushion on his head? Your mouth too is far too low regardless, he has no jaw. Remember your proportion laws (face is thirds with eyes at the first, nose and base of spine at the second. divide the chin into thirds and the mouth is at the first. eyes are halfway between the top of the head and the bottom of the chin)
I liked your features, but the placement just isn't right at all and the hair really is just odd.
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(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/3497/huzxf3.png)
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i think this is the best so far:
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07330/Phooey4.png)
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I edited your version a little bit Huzba I hope it's alright. The problem with it was that it has a realistic neck so I shortened it <didn't refine it though> I also adjusted the hair and the jaw area :D
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07341/huzbas3.PNG)
He looks young now but hey
(http://xs218.xs.to/xs218/07341/huzbashero.PNG) (http://xs118.xs.to/xs118/07341/huzbashero2.PNG) Hair adjustment
Adarias...you really need to decide either realistic or Anime style. Just make 2 versions if you can
Helm,
man, that looks like a guy in an cosplay conversion because of the green hair :P
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Great, i see where i went wrong now, thanks big time. He looks fit to be a hero :y:. I'd gladly use that as my character in a game. So yeah, i agree, a clear cut style works better than aimlessly shooting in many directions.
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huzba: your version is the worst so far imo, all the facial features have been pulled down and off-center.
Care to elaborate?
Adarias pretty much explained, but here we go for good measure. I'm afraid your errors are the byproduct of anime disease where all the huge hair and shit obstruct the shape of the head and therefore the artist slowly forgets how he has to draw it properly.
(http://www.locustleaves.com/huz.gif)
watch it for a few seconds. Watch it FOREVER
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Go easy on the you-got-anime-disease gun, thanks. I don't draw this kind of characters often, much less ones with big ass hair. It was covered by 3 people already, though i appreaciate the effort. I'll take it to OT creativity thread from here for the sake of studying faces more, cause i do have quite a lot to improve on.
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Random mini-update :
I'm really not setup for hardcore pixelling yet, as my mouse has not arrived and I am still getting used to pixelling by touch-screen, but I just thought this was a bit of fun :
(http://xs319.xs.to/xs319/07350/Ichigo.png)
Bleach fans should know this guy right-off. He might turn up in-game for an optional quest, or he might just be a for-fun doodle. Being a non-commercial endeavor consisting of entirely self-produced work on licensed programs, I don't think we can get chewed out for such caricatures in our project, but if we can, let us know!
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Adarias, I love the style of these sprites (would love to see that face finished up) and this little guy is great. Only complaint is the hair color. It's probably accurate the main character of bleach but doesn't fit the rest of him very well. Desaturate and darken it a little... maybe?
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Hmm... nice, coping the style :P
Need to learn more that style, so I can do that too.
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Adarias, I love the style of these sprites (would love to see that face finished up) and this little guy is great. Only complaint is the hair color. It's probably accurate the main character of bleach but doesn't fit the rest of him very well. Desaturate and darken it a little... maybe?
first - thank you!
second - I probably will end up doing something along those lines because it does stick out, but part of the character is that it is a really unnatural, obnoxious color (he gets made fun of it constantly and the title "Bleach: is said to be a joke on his hair), so if it's out-of-place in that sense only i may as well just leave it as a character trait.
Hmm... nice, coping the style Tongue
Pardon?
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i think he said "copying"
I want to learn this too :P
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Oh, yea my mistake... what I mean is that I like your style so I am taking that as reference to learn from. ;)
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oh alright, if you are really interested I believe there were some step-by-step images at some point, or at least the wire frame constructions. Basically this is my own idea of what looks good plus input from this forum and fil_razorback, but it has enough of the brandings found in all rpg sprites that studying any set will lend itself to your betterment. Oddly enough, these began as my "I want to create an isometric character that is not chubby or rigid" and yet somehow managed to end up right back at chubby :P
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I have pretty good skills at spriting (at least I believe so) so I will be taking a close look at colours and shading, this is the hardest part foe me yet. :-[
The outlines are easy.
Strange that I’ve been doing sprites for 2 years and I still have problems whit shading.
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hah, problem with shading is no stranger to anyone, you can work for 200 years and still occasionally second-guess yourself :P
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Just taking a stab at the face (lol?) since I can't decipher the bodily details off of the sprites alone;
(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v176/Sonic_Reaper/th_Roarc02.png)
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Sonic_reaper hi, this isn't your thread but here's some critique anyway: Study facial structure fundamentally. The facial features are squished and piled on the bottom of the face, and the implied perspective is extreme. You're improvising facial anatomy and shapes.
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Yes, while I like your image here, helm's illustration for huZba's piece is just as appropriate for this illustration.
This thread is for all of my work related to partisan tactics battles, but anyone here may feel free to post related pieces, and I have no trouble with them receiving critique.
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Random mini-update :
I'm really not setup for hardcore pixelling yet, as my mouse has not arrived and I am still getting used to pixelling by touch-screen, but I just thought this was a bit of fun :
(http://xs319.xs.to/xs319/07350/Ichigo.png)
Bleach fans should know this guy right-off. He might turn up in-game for an optional quest, or he might just be a for-fun doodle. Being a non-commercial endeavor consisting of entirely self-produced work on licensed programs, I don't think we can get chewed out for such caricatures in our project, but if we can, let us know!
Needs more Bankai. (j/k)
Also, the amount of critique on the portrait is amazing, it really shows the strength of this community.
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Well, that's what art classes are for. But seriously the only thing I've really studied is anatomy, I'm very familiar with what a face should look like. Looking back at it anyway, he sure is damn ugly. For some reasons my portraits always turn out ugly looking. Anyway, I did another one, but I think I made Roarc look way too old here? Oh, the hair looks funny cause it's simply a resize/rotate of the hair from the other piece. I might as well take this time to say that I think the graphics that Adarias has created are great. They're really unique IMO, and are definitely well crafted.
(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v176/Sonic_Reaper/th_Roarc03.png)
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Helm's crit on sonic's old one is still valid here. The parts of the face seem to be crafted individually first, then arranged. They don't seem to be constructed directly onto the shape of the head. For instance, the ear is at a slightly different angle than everything else in both versions (the positioning looks odd, too). The lighting makes the major facial shapes look lumpy and confusing, rather than clean and concise. Sorry to divert the thread from Adarias's work.
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Well, that's what art classes are for. But seriously the only thing I've really studied is anatomy, I'm very familiar with what a face should look like.
Seriously, I believe you believe this. But
(http://www.locustleaves.com/23.gif)
more training necessary. I say this to myself as well. My edit isn't great by any stretch, but it shows you some problems. The facial characteristics are all bundled in closely, not in the right 3d planes, and look at the collarbone as well while you're at it. More real-life studies! moooooooore
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Ok. Sorry to divert the thread by the way. Wasn't my intention. Was actually inspired by Adarias' graphics. The collar bone is terrible on mine, agreed. Your edit has the head too elongated IMO (speaking stylistically). And noses come in different sizes, shapes, slopes and so on. Basically the angle of the head needs to be corrected on mine. And my color choices kinda suck. And the lighting just doesn't know what it wants to do. :-\
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(http://www.locustleaves.com/bald-flower.jpg)
because a lot of the upper head is obscured by hair ( and ridiculous hairstyles, especially in anime where the heads are really strangely constructed I JUST HAD TO MENTION IT DON'T KILL ME) a lot of people have a pretty wrong idea on how much head there is actually in a head. Perhaps mine was a bit overdone, but let's keep thinking of reality when we stylise, not stylisations of reality.
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You seem to be assuming that I jumped right to the hair. I'm not home right now, otherwise I would upload the original without the hair. Remember that the hair was simply pasted on. I made sure the head was correct before doing so. I'm pretty anal about these things myself :crazy: It looks strange because I guess
a. the hair is low, though this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the hairline
b. the hair wasn't "made" for the head, if that makes any sense.
I appreciate all the constructive criticism you give though, not only in this thread, but pretty much on this entire site. I think the major problem here is that I was lazy and should have just constructed the hair from scratch, as opposed to pasting it on.
I was once told that the way a person draws a face from memory is the way their own face is assimilated. Looking in the mirror, I have a wide, heart shaped face, with a slightly pointed nose. I've actually noticed that's the way I draw my faces as well. Perhaps the same applies to the way you draw faces, and to which you are inherently drawn. For example, in that last image you posted, I find that head to be rather strange, since it's so long and oval, whereas mine (at least it looks to me) more round.
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I totally draw my face in almost every face I draw, it's a common artistic thing, yeah. Anyway, I won't derail anymore.
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Hm, so, we just wait for Adarias to post more art or something :mean:
Maybe some motivation. You go Adarias, you go with your bad self.
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sonic - why not start a thread for your own art production...
no point clogging this, even though its a good discussion about faces and head anatomy...
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sonic - why not start a thread for your own art production...
no point clogging this, even though its a good discussion about faces and head anatomy...
I will around October or so. It's crazy but I'm a Fine Arts major, and only in my now, last year and a half do I ACTUALLY get to take some drawing classes. All I had last term was a sculpture class, which ended up really really bad (my final project was a box covered in tin-foil. I realized at this point that sculpture DEFINITELY was not for me). So, once I get some material up, I'm hoping to join the creativity thread with some sketches and such, and start a thread on my own homebrew graphics etc.
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what on earth sort of school do you go to? here at parsons I have my schedule split into 90 credits of studios and 90 of seminars, so that won't be an issue....
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We're only required to take so many art courses, we can take more, but they don't count towards the degree, THUS, the rest of my schedule are electives, many having nothing to do with studio art at all (Sociology, Drama, Music, English, History, Political Studies and Computer Science to name some of the electives I've taken my first three years). I think most Universities do it this way. It's only when you apply at a specialized college are you immersed in your selected degree or area of study. So ... yeah ...
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ok, small update and not on the topic really, but there's been a long-neglected update of the characters for a while now and i thought id get on that:
currently trying to make the girls a little more girlish, pull the classes together in a nice way, and just, in general, finish them to my own satisfaction. obvious changes include the girl's regular top and the inclusion of tights/breeches (which will be worn more by unique characters since it's sortof a fashion thing rather than a combat thing....but w/e)
(http://xs120.xs.to/xs120/07401/show.gif)
as before, just a WIP and several hats missing.
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ive been eying this topic fora really long time now...eheheh....guess i should help a bit(if what i say is helpful...might not be)
i think with the most recent update shows a breakaway from the initial stronger, armored girls, and it gives some of them that little spark of character, while some look better with the armored heavier look...so i think if you kept some normal(armored) and had the others skinnier..newer...it would add some difference and character to the people in your game. thats all ive got, other than how i think green hair is odd.
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green is a placeholder color. The game engine always recolors it in time =)
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green is a placeholder color. The game engine always recolors it in time =)
>.>;; that almost seems like a shortcut me....damn purist opinions... oh well. great work all the same.
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of course it's a shortcut. if this was meant to be a series of art pieces, yeah, we'd hand pixel it all. it's not though, it's for a game. sometimes you need to cut corners to save time and space for other sheets.
im wondering if i should just put in my sig that no character will actually have an unnatural hair color. it seems like no matter how many times it gets said, everyone asks..........
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I was wondering if in the game girls will have a distinct pose compared to boys. If all the girls had a pose with say their right arm resting on their hip, then it would be a good cue to instantly recognise the gender. Or maybe all the boys have their arms crossed. Alot of them I can tell that they are girls, but for some its hard.
The guy 5 down and 5 across, his hat's cross doesn't look like it wraps all the way round. 5 down and 9 across, maybe you should remove the cross on his armour so that it looks less like breasts.
In general some are really good, like the fourth row first eight ones. But for third row, 7 + 8, for example, their clothes seem like an original head with the rest slapped on from other classes. While that is okay since you would save time animating, or maybe they are related to other classes, i think the most successful ones have a unique full uniform. eg. the romans and vikings down on the bottom row. What i mean is, if this class were assassins, because he looks a bit like a ninja, maybe a more asian clothes would be better. And have the girl wear a full face mask, but make her show skin on her arms, legs to differentiate.
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yeah, i've been wondering about the ninja/assassin class for a while now, i think i'll try that..........and a few other things perhaps
I also think im going to revisit the mid-level healer classes and the defender classes, im just not enjoying them. im happy with the second and fourth tier classes, but the third tier ones just seem like a lame "huh, we're in between" class.
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of course it's a shortcut. if this was meant to be a series of art pieces, yeah, we'd hand pixel it all. it's not though, it's for a game. sometimes you need to cut corners to save time and space for other sheets.
im wondering if i should just put in my sig that no character will actually have an unnatural hair color. it seems like no matter how many times it gets said, everyone asks..........
ehehe, i see ^^ well, sorry if what i said annoyed you or anything...i cant say i read all 8 pages or remembered the comments on the hair color, ^^;; maybe the sig footnote would be good for us lazy people if you dont feel like repeating yourself too many times xD
goodluck with your game ^^
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I was wondering if in the game girls will have a distinct pose compared to boys. If all the girls had a pose with say their right arm resting on their hip, then it would be a good cue to instantly recognise the gender. Or maybe all the boys have their arms crossed. Alot of them I can tell that they are girls, but for some its hard.
To me there doesn't seem to be a good reason to really differentiate the women from men so much. I mean.. it's not some kind of dating game. You could tell through there character portraits or names anyway, right? :y:
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yeah this is just a very basic "idle" stance, because it's tactics they will all be fully animated and right now im trying to work the costumes out so thinking about characteristic stances at this point would defeat the purpose of that (gives a false sense of differentiation in the design)...
im actually totally rethinking the whole costume and class names for ninjas (not necessarily assassins), because i think the Asian influence is out-of-place in the context of the game. The "viking" style characters too are throwing me off, because the image they give off works with the name (mercenary, sword master, bounty hunter), but not at all with the skills (fencing and trick moves). I think I want to redesign those characters to better fit the skills and the setting of the game (which was really up in the air when the jobs were designed). Ideally they would reflect slightly different goals
one the condottiere style, the refined yet unbound swordsman and mercenary, fourth sons or fallen-house noblemen, or even just commoners with the balls to act fancy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Artemisia_Gentileschi_Condottiero_Bologna.jpg
Emphasis on fencing technique and flamboyancy to impress, confuse, or enrage
one in the late landsknecht style, a man reveling in his common birth and making a life for himself as a warrior:
http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/files_gallery/ga056.jpg
emphasis on trick play and the use of the off-hand
im also working on the designs for the character classes as well:
As mentioned, regardless of the class you choose for Roarc he will have a constant costume, going from peasant to play-noble to captain to general/total badass.
There are also a few groups of characters who will share similar costumes:
Peers of the Realm: the nobility of Potager, they typically wear long coats over fashionable clothes and very light armor, fighting most often with the rapiers. they will fight like a "fifth-tier" fencer (the game only has 4 tiers to the job classes). Soledad and Jimenez, primary enemies, will appear to the public as peers of the realm.
The Lord Knights: protectors of the peace and nobility, they lead bodies of the royal guard and fight typically with sword or polearm, acting like a fifth-tier knight. Dress will be traditional heavy armor while maintaining a sense of class and rank.
http://www.arms-armor.cz/catalog/files_gallery/ga051.jpg not exactly how they will look, but gives a similar impression.
The Masked Men: dressed something like the peers of the realm but on crack, with overly flamboyant garments. They are identified by the fact that they all hold masks to their faces and fight mostly with magic but occasionally with swords. Think like a masquerade ball but soaked in evil :P.
The Guild: minor characters most often found at the docks or on board ships, Guildsmen are wealthy merchants who run the economy of the region. They are responsible for making sure goods get delivered, or that they don't. There will be a number of side missions which give you the opportunity to impress (or threaten) the Guild which will see bonuses in your investment and trading returns. The guild also includes their own henchmen, the Marines, who act as something between police and pirates and will dress similarly to British http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/book_images/high/v1_c6_s10_ss00_01.jpg but a lot more drab, with smaller caps.
Eventually there will be art to go along with all this talk.....:P
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bumpdate: WIP masked man (one of several, this one represents Malach)
(http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07406/Masquers.gif)
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bumpdate: WIP masked man (one of several, this one represents Malach)
(http://xs220.xs.to/xs220/07406/Masquers.gif)
You say masked man, but this struck me as a female character.
Were you not being literal when you said masked man?
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nah it's literal men, they are supposed to be effeminate/ambiguous though, that was the style:
illustration from The Rape of the Lock
(http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~sconstan/steve6.jpeg)
the two central figues are men, the righthand figures are woman (as is the one cut off on the left, no pun intended).
you have reminded me though that so many of our characters are men, so it might be worth looking into making some of the masked men women......
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What about an emo partisan ? (http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4015/emopartisanpi0.png) xD
No seriously your work is awesome, the character design is great, YOU are great !
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forst pumpkin, you just earned my love with that character :P
heavy WIP of new fencer classes on bottom with old above:
(http://xs320.xs.to/xs320/07406/NewFencers.gif)
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those characters are in a menestrel style, it's so cool because i like it.
Edited a little, mybe it could help you (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7649/sanstitre1copiergq4.png)
I've learn lot of think about using colors while doing the Emo and those edit, thanks.
EDIT : I was bored so I've done that (http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2569/jokercharagp6.png) a joker. Maybe it can give you ideas ?
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i do like that there, and there's an optional quest with a group of players.....it's good inspiration, thanks! :P
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forst pumpkin, you just earned my love with that character
Is that all it takes? SUBCULTURE REPRESENT!
(http://www.locustleaves.com/metalpartisan.png)
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*yearns for an Electric Guitar weapon*
(yeah yeah, this post is useless...oneliners etc etc.)
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forst pumpkin, you just earned my love with that character
Is that all it takes? SUBCULTURE REPRESENT!
(http://www.locustleaves.com/metalpartisan.png)
oh my.....i've always believed in monogamy, but how can I possibly choose?
on the other hand, i never pretended I wasn't fickle :P
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green is a placeholder color. The game engine always recolors it in time =)
=(
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we might have a green haired character if teh snaderz wants it so....
maybe some sort of hairdye item like mmo's have....except that might be too retarded
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we might have a green haired character if teh snaderz wants it so....
maybe some sort of hairdye item like mmo's have....except that might be too retarded
stay away from what MMO's do heh :D
I like that metal character.. Corpsegrinder in SRPG form..
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(http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08016/Meh.png)
not an update but i need a verdict -
when it fills your screen, do you find this too busy?
I know it's busy when it's small, and that it needs to be taken down a little, but how much im just not sure.
btw ignore the gray stairs and lack of shadows (which actually do help lower the business a bit).
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Methinks the floor boards increase the business. They are, I think, too high contrast.
The addition of shadows, I imagine, would indeed help alot, as you yourself have stated, but without them I really can't tell what's cliff or differentiate between elevations.
The plants don't seem to have any form to them that identifies them as plants aside from them seeming to be all like "I'm green, so I'm a bush!" or something similar. They seem kinda...messy.
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I really really want to say its fine. I've loved following the progression of this project...
But I agree with Xion about the boards. But I actually think the flowers and foliage are fine. Too much more definition and you're going to get more problems in my opinion. Its all about priority and leaving the backgrounds backgroundy is needed to make a game function well. Its got to be playable.
Generally the tile needs some priority tweaking but its hard to gauge without a character in there (and GUI?)
But as it stands I would lower contrast on the boards and desaturate the boards purple shadow a little.
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That's really interesting, as I haven't even looked at the wood since it was first drawn.....I'll experiment :P
oh and yeah forgot to say that any shadows you DO see (wood, stones) are relics of the normal shadows system (that has been replaced and therefor is on the outs).
here is with characters but the tiles are not changed at all :
(http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08010/chars.PNG)
Already on the to do list also is to simplify the brick and earth/stone wall faces, which are just old and bad (only tiles to have not been redone since the project began).
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I think that removing all those little piles of rock would really help simplify.
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Nooo!Please dont remove the rocks,I LOVe them!! :'( ,I think the grass/flower part looks a little buisy tho.
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In general, the more I look at it, the more I find the aesthetics appealing, and the easier it is to see what the different levels are. It's definitely easier on the left than on the right to determine elevation. Depending on how important it is to the game's mechanics, you might want to look at that.
I love the plant life, and almost everything else--I think it's all finely pixeled and it makes a great environment for the characters. I just think there should be a few places for the eye to rest.
I'm so pumped for this game...stinks that it's not coming out until '10.
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interesting....and i am taking everything into account for when I update, which will be soon.........
what we have finally finished working on is our lighting system. remember the tests we showed way back when? well, they had some problems. now though we believe we have a system that is good as it will get! there are a few cases that we aren't capable of but at last we have a system the treats bushy grass and characters in a way that looks good :
(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08010/yay12.png)
few stray pixels do not mind them - they are me being lazy ^^ (and not an engine problem)
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Excellent lighting system
although i'm not to sure of the shadow on the ground beside the middle knight, why is it the same height as the on on the top knight?
(i'm assuming the light source is from off in the northwest direction)
I think to debunk the busy-ness, you should take the scene above where you're asking us about busy-ness, and make several copies of it
1 without the well defined rock clutter
1 without foliage
1 with some generic blank space <- important, it seems as though you're trying to fit the whole map into the viewing area, as opposed to utilizing scrolling
and then compare it to this one
i think your lack of definition of forms on foliage tiles is causing it personally
the tiles that lack outlined areas have too many shades and seem almost unfinished
you'll get into a debate with yourself about oversized plants, such as how rpgs like to define "to-scale-massive" grass blades, but i think you'll find the planks and rocks already existing allow you to oversize and define your plants a bit
try it, is all i can say.
p.s. i've been watching this develop for a long time and i read the blog all the time, lovin it
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What is a good method of putting focus on the right position is lowring opacity or lowering contrast in the right areas.
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Yeah, the plants were meant to be a direct reaction to the oversized chunky plants of most games (which i just don't like) but im finding myself less than enthusiastic about my current attempts. I think it comes down to an issue of poorly defined shapes and just noise, which could well be doing a lot of the business like you said. I think i'll firm them up first thing once the walls get done and then thing about the rocks (Which might loose some contrast but are definitely staying as they are one of the only decent obstacles and obstacles shape things in this game a bit more than usual, what with so much direct fire/spells and directional skills.)
What is a good method of putting focus on the right position is lowring opacity or lowering contrast in the right areas.
haha, i'm not daft ^^
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The circled part seems to be not so correct. Looks pretty much f***ed :-\
(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08021/light_sys_weird.png)
Other than that, awesome tiles and sprites, and the lighting system is just godly.
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The circled part seems to be not so correct. Looks pretty much f***ed :-\
(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08021/light_sys_weird.png)
Other than that, awesome tiles and sprites, and the lighting system is just godly.
yeah, there are a few special cases like that then will need unique pieces that I haven't made yet. the same goes for the bits that stick out on the corners (though that was a small engine issue that has been rectified)
only one change so far - the introduction of a WIP tile to replace "tufty" (the grass types are spiky, patchy, softy, tufty, and stalky). doesn't mean im avoiding the other problems that's just what I tried first because i had an idea for it.
(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08022/Working.png)(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08022/hmm.png)
so what's the verdict on the newbie? if people like it the other grasses will get the same makeover. Also i think i will play up the different grass colors from blue to yellow short to tall so that it's not as "foggy" (though i still want pretty organic transitions which is the one thing the oldies did pretty well imo). That is though before I saw the second image, which I almost like (though i was NOT expecting to) with the blue.......
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I like the new tile, but I think you should leave the other grass tiles the way they are, it looks fine. Also I don't like the second set of cooler colors as much.
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I like the new tile, but I think you should leave the other grass tiles the way they are, it looks fine.
hmm, I think im going to start running into consistency issues if i don't do *anything*. the pixel handling is very different between old and new such that at least stalky needs a facelift...........
I think the green works far better too for a happy, lush island, but there are places where i'm thinking the blue could be used. maybe the way this map is put together is not that place....but maybe out north where it's colder and less fertile, "the big island" has a few mountains.......there's a particular place called Heavens Pass where the road cuts above the cloud line and your surrounded by mist that the blue grass might really look good in....i'll ask fil because now im just rambling....
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I think these new ones are much more readable, and I do actually like both colour schemes (for various moods maybe). As you said the issue is mostly consistency, the buildings and rocks have such prominant darks with the colouring and maybe don't add up in comparison, Im loving you're work though adarias I'd say you're improving as an artist, try keep everything at the same level.
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I like the new plants to, I think the other ones should be updated into this style aswell ^^
(But the 2nd palette wont work at all for Island of Perch which this map is supposed to be)
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I like the new plants to, I think the other ones should be updated into this style aswell ^^
(But the 2nd palette wont work at all for Island of Perch which this map is supposed to be)
awesome, so we are on the same leaf :P
I'm having a bit of trouble with the taller grass (it looks kinda tacky if the color is different, it looks kinda confusing if the color ISN'T....) but i'll figure it out (probably just a little lightening/yellowing will do good by it...)
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Although all you are posting are test swatches so far, something i dislike about the piece relates to this:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/sharprm/rockwall.gif)
The one on the left is going to be made up of more tiles. Whats more, you would have to place grass tiles as a second layer underneath. The one on the right uses less tiles and doesn't need grass underneath. I think the one on the left looks better, because an old wall would not be perfectly straight, even though it would need more tiles.
In your game, you could use more tiles to make a better product in my opinion. For example, right now the deck doesn't make sense, some wood goes one way, some the other. It would be better if you had all the wood go one way, and make 8 edge tiles. The house could use tiles for windows, chimneys, doors etc. I guess these are just tests so far, and also you said the fact that it is noticeably tiled is the norm for tactics games (which ive never played), but i wanted let you know anyway.
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just a quick update because it's still only plants i've looked at
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/576/hmud9.png)
not really sure about these new ones in terms of color.
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Haha I was going to reply the colours of the new ones are -perfect-. And then I read your comment below it.
I think you made a really great colour choice though.
I don't much like the green/orange-pink combination a lot of games use, to me it always looks like it takes using a minimum amount of colours too far and just ends up with a nauseating blend of foliage that never quite decided what colour it wanted to be. The colours you chose however seem more natural and light to me, much nicer. You can see the difference I mean in the left corner next to the house. I much prefer the whole-green plants over the slightly orange-pink tinted ones, and then especially in this colour. Making them lighter than before somehow adds to the game a little? More enchanting? Might just be how it's projected on to me though.
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Haha I was going to reply the colours of the new ones are -perfect-. And then I read your comment below it.
I think you made a really great colour choice though.
I don't much like the green/orange-pink combination a lot of games use, to me it always looks like it takes using a minimum amount of colours too far and just ends up with a nauseating blend of foliage that never quite decided what colour it wanted to be. The colours you chose however seem more natural and light to me, much nicer. You can see the difference I mean in the left corner next to the house. I much prefer the whole-green plants over the slightly orange-pink tinted ones, and then especially in this colour. Making them lighter than before somehow adds to the game a little? More enchanting? Might just be how it's projected on to me though.
well im still not 100% certain, but you've convinced me enough to just move on :P
for those who have been wondering this whole time, here is a slate with the planned hair colors:
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/3285/omghairbd9.png)
some need tweeking more than others, particularly the towhead, but yeah, that's the gist of it
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the white highlights don't work on the dark ones.. (the 3 in the bottom row particularly)
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The red, brown and grey as mentioned above, and the lighter brown right above the middle of those above mentioned three.
For the dark red and light brown I would suggest not taking out the white, but making it blend in better in some way which I'm afraid you must make up yourself cause I haven't got a clue except adding colours.
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(http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/8277/hairrgj6.gif) any better ?
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a bit on the light brown and dark grey, but different background doesn't do enough I'm afraid.
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but I also took out the highlights? the trans background is just how it got saved this time - it's an animated gif going from white to dull.
Still not enough?
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Haha, I spent 4 minutes switching between the two images of it before I realized one was animated.
New highlight looks good, but could still use a few points less on the brown hair. Every other one looks great.
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consider it done!
oh and i nearly forgot - if anybody here wants a haircolor they don't see, or if they think there's one that someone else might really want, chime in now before fil gets it all coded and have to go back and mess with things the hard way!
there's no limit of course but if i'm adding any i'm adding 4; i like numbers that are powers of 2 or that just have tons of factors (my scale is really 8 12 16 24 32 48 64 96
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what's with really dark black?
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I suggest adding a really dark brown or black, cuz I know a lot of people may want to match their own hair color. Have you considered more unnatural hair colors or is that too anime for you?
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ok dark brown and black(er). I'm not certain quite how well that will work with the established shadow colors (dynamic recoloring is both convenient and frustrating) but i tihnk if i jsut stay with close darks with a spike up to the highlights i can pull out a black that is still lively (if slightly grey)
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You need to add birth defect red. Even if it's only used on a noble lady.
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I'm not familiar with the color and couldn't find a photograph, would you mind describing?
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Red hair, actual red hair, is a birth defect, most likely to occur in Irish and inbred people (hence the nobility).
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my friend has electric blue hair :D
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Than, your friend won't play this game. :P
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but I also took out the highlights? the trans background is just how it got saved this time - it's an animated gif going from white to dull.
Still not enough?
This is quite funny, because the last time I looked (and I ame ABSOLUTELY sure of that) either my browser displaying or the loading of the image faield, and I just saw the old image on a transparant background
Now I looked at the image again, and saw it animated into a better version - then I read this post, so to make sure you keep it, it is very good now =)
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I thought there was a gene for red hair, but i guess you mean RED (like no golden shine, but just RED?)
with a dark(black), another dark (brown), inexcusably red hair, and a "cappuccino cream" i've got my 4.
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Red hair, actual red hair, is a birth defect, most likely to occur in Irish and inbred people (hence the nobility).
If we start classifying things as birth defects just because they are a result of closed breeding, then we might as well say that being Japanese is a birth defect.
Now on topic: I think Adarias' pallete can't work with a 100% black or red, the colors are subdued and muted. Reminds me a little of Ragnarok Online. I think you should definitely add non-natural hair colors like lavenders, blues, greens and pinks. More customization options are never a bad thing. Nobody wants to have a twin in-game. If you need ideas for different hairdos I can come up with a few :3
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Red hair, actual red hair, is a birth defect, most likely to occur in Irish and inbred people (hence the nobility).
If we start classifying things as birth defects just because they are a result of closed breeding, then we might as well say that being Japanese is a birth defect.
Now on topic: I think Adarias' pallete can't work with a 100% black or red, the colors are subdued and muted. Reminds me a little of Ragnarok Online. I think you should definitely add non-natural hair colors like lavenders, blues, greens and pinks. More customization options are never a bad thing. Nobody wants to have a twin in-game. If you need ideas for different hairdos I can come up with a few :3
yeah....we just aren't doing really unnatural hair colors. It might be a bad call on our part but I personally just plan hate them. Fil's writing a system that won't produce the same style and color hair if it is already present, so we avoid obvious twinnies, and if possible im going to try to get him to make it not even have the same shape......there are usually at most 6 mercenaries on a team (not story characters or constructs, which have unique portraits) and split between two genders, so i think we can manage to avoid in-battle twins.
Also, nobody will have the same features as Roarc (the hero). Though you are able to choose him a look from much of the library (with "older" styles like grizzled beards and wrinkled faces and big warty noses being locked - he is 17 at game start), MOST of his styles (hair color hair style nose eyes mouth) will be taken out of the pool as soon as he is made. For the nitpicky, note of course that his skin color and eye color are not locked, as these are hardly unique enough for us to care.
If enough people whine about it, we might have an option that allows another 8 colors (with all your blue and green and ugly nonsense) for the anime people to enjoy, but i'm not intentionally making a game with strange hair.
This is not by any means impossible, in many games the humans stick to fairly natural colors. The final fantasy series almost never includes strange hair color since the old days (when it was more about color counting and differentiation on a 16x24 sprite), nor does the suikoden series (or for that matter, most konami games). I don't see this as being a problem.
What's hard for me to understand is that 99% of games reuse the same 6 people over and again, but people always suggest that I add more customization options >.<.
I've mentioned that so far as we know, this game is PURELY single-player, right? It's not an MMO!
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then we might as well say that being Japanese is a birth defect.
You mean to say it is not?
Adarias, this piece of art
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/576/hmud9.png)
suffers from priority problems due to the colors you use. The saturated browns under the house punch through their priority and seem to be swimming outside and on top of everything else in the non-eucledian fervor of the ancients.
The house tiles themselves sem muddy and use blue shadows without any clear benefit to my eyes. Some of the greens behave, others bleed through, but the biggest problem is the tile shapes and colors of the vertical rubble under the house as stated before. You are making the art for this game alright, but it's not exactly behaving right now. I think you need to simplify and make tough artistic choices that you might have not otherwise considered, like, simpler palette choices, simpler tiles, forgetting about machine shadows and generally reigning this beast in. As it is now, it's really a bit of a mess and from a tactical viewpoint really disorienting I think.
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just to clarify, you mean the rocks, the bricks, or both? (both are slated for redrawing but it's the way I do them again obviously that counts the most).
Some of the greens behave, others bleed through
house tile greens (calls for palette simplification) or plant greens (calls for something i don't know how to fix)?
It's become more and more clear to me as this has progressed that I've assembled everything as individual tiles or groups of tiles, without a clear understanding of what i wanted things to look like as a WHOLE, so the entire thing is getting a facelift some time soon. The deck is already well on it's way and of course the two new grasses show where that is headed; I agree about the shadows on the house just not being good at this point and im wondering if the wood isn't terribly busy too; the roof palette makes me more concerned now than it ever did with that chocolate sticking out.....and was the tan on those bricks always lighter than the tops?
anyway, yes, there are a lot of problems with this that I'll be trying to work through and i might need to ask for a little more hand-holding than usual because of this shift in thinking.
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It's okay, growing pains.
I mean the rocks. And the plant greens.
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I applaud you for doing natural hair colors rather than other nonsense. Also the way you pixeled the hair colors is very snazzy, it's not just a palette swap between them, you have hue shifting and subtle contrasts in color which really makes it look great. So yeah, good job.
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(http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08034/working782.png)
just working on simplifying, i can't really get into colors on this monitor. the hues are true finally but the saturation is just not happening.
as before, ignore shadows, strays, floating objects....etc. it's just a swatch.
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the mirrored rocks just break the 3d illusion, it pushes through the planes. I suggest you make either the left or the right side darker, the whole tile, so it doesn't just wraploop like that. The actual rocks are quite better now.
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because the shadows are no properly drawn yet and I'm still not certain our engine is finalized (although i think it's getting there), i don't like to show with the shadows yet because otherwise nobody will talk about anything but the problems with them ^^
still, with the dozens of placeholders..:
(http://xs223.xs.to/xs223/08035/ugh407.png)
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The purpz under the stairs are real saturated.
And the mirrored tiles still look wacky at the corners, even with the shadows.
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The purpz under the stairs are real saturated.
And the mirrored tiles still look wacky at the corners, even with the shadows.
lol, enough about the purples! read any page of the thread! :D
and yeah, that wasn't meant to be a fix, only to show where the shadows were in their development. Many (many) things are on my to do list and I can't possibly get to all of them in each little update :P
At this point I'm not actually going to take them out for a little while because the staircase is really just the wooden deck plus the house frame, and those both need to be redrawn and then the stairs themselves made to match. Redrawing them just to redraw them again just means i push back something else a little.
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(http://www.locustleaves.com/working.png)
more the issue I want you to adress.
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(http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08035/bricks247.png)
got the bricks redone, and the rocks too but the hard line is strange so I'm going too hold off on that till i figure out how to soften that shadow properly.
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I'm not able to tell you what's wrong in the big map but something surely is.
BUT, what I can tell you is that this thumbnail looks perfect =)
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I'm not able to tell you what's wrong in the big map but something surely is.
heh, i can name quite a few things, mostly stemming from low number of tiles and shadow shapes attempting to be organic and needing MORE MORE MORE (better slopes, more posts, redone grasses, and a few hundred other things to fix :P)
or did you mean that it is like, system-wise flawed?
oh and PS helm i forgot to say thanks; I had only looked at the seam contained by the actual block (convex edge) and not at the area where two tiles touch across the diagonal (concave edge), thanks for pointing that one out!
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no worries. Be very careful where you have symmetry. When the human brain sees symmetry, they make organic stuff out of it, faces, human faces, eyes, all that stuff, it's distracting in what is supposed to be random rubble. My advice is to separate with darkness as I showed and also, just don't mirror, really.
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(http://xs120.xs.to/xs120/07401/show.gif)
Maybe a little late but why the HELL did you give every boy and girl iron boots!? I like the panties for the girls :S not saying all girls need them but you have to leave some of them in there :O
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Maybe a little late but why the HELL did you give every boy and girl iron boots!? I like the panties for the girls :S not saying all girls need them but you have to leave some of them in there :O
you sorta lost me there; i think what you call "iron boots" are what i intended to be "standard black leather boots," and i think you are also confusing the older version with the newer version, as certainly there is variation among the footwear types (not as much as there could be should be, but later iterations may change this) :
(http://xs123.xs.to/xs123/08046/guys604.gif)
btw i think the palette got fucked when I sent myself things.....the ranges are not as nice as i remember
about the panties, I have no idea what you mean, as none of the character ever have and ever will appear in undergarments in battle. it is a habit of anime and videogames to undress their female cast just for the hell of it, but it's a habit that bothers me.
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I have one comment about the sprites from a gameplay perspective. I'm not sure if you're working with a fixed palette for the game, or just fixed palette per faction, but it might be good to slightly increase the saturation for faction relevant colors.
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Oh I think I mixed up the old and new version then XD If the top row characters have the smaller black boots or whatever as latest version it look sreal cool! :P srry XD
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Oh I think I mixed up the old and new version then XD If the top row characters have the smaller black boots or whatever as latest version it look sreal cool! :P srry XD
heh, no prob, and you brought up a good point which is that it would be good of me to get more variation in the footwear
little update - first look at what a construct might appear as :
(http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/robotsmall.png) (http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/full/robot__r195431711.gif)
like any first take it is subject to change a hundred times, but this is Cancer, a model available to the Mechanists. Support skills, slashing, semi-fast, semi-tough, lightweight.
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It doesn't really pop out against the background. I guess it might be fine in game, particularly if the smoke is animated, but maybe add some bright highlights? Especially the claws... you could really make those pop out since they're close to the big shadows :).
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hmm, well i dont want him to stand out too much, and the entire game is pixelled with zoom in mind (im wondering if i should just not upload 1x images anymore...)
same problem viewing at 2x or 3x ?
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same problem viewing at 2x or 3x ?
No.
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I have one comment about the sprites from a gameplay perspective. I'm not sure if you're working with a fixed palette for the game, or just fixed palette per faction, but it might be good to slightly increase the saturation for faction relevant colors.
missed this before.
this is very interesting because i sorta thought that the red and blue areas were highly saturated already :P. will definitely take this into consideration though when finalizing palettes.
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Do you attack its weak point for massive damage?? :o
I'm not sure I like the interior AA, and I have some readability issues with the volumes on the body...but it's a nice-looking design.
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Cool crablature, reminds me of Gyo by junji ito(nipon faggot right here)
As long as its animated it should stand out just fine.
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not so much of an update, just seeing if people like more or less colorful shadows (the shapes for which are still broken btw, this also uses some older tiles). Also, a wip water tile, which will use a little bit of alpha to help with tiling boredom, as well as staggered animation (which will let us have multi-tile waves - they should look something like the 4th pic except better, bigger, and the tiles themselves will also be animated with movement, glints, etc)
(http://xs224.xs.to/xs224/08061/hmm326.gif) (http://xs224.xs.to/xs224/08050/hmm607.png) (http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08061/waterhmm777.gif)
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hmm.. been looking at for a while, initially i didn't care for it, but on second thought I think i like the idea. Still kinda ambivalent about it though, since ii don't like is the fact that it adds a lot of colors to bg. that imo looks "busy" enough as it is. Water tiles are a bitch, but i think you did a good job. I minor crit - i think there's too big a difference in alphavalues, some parts you can barely see through while others are fairly opaque. I suggest you bring em a bit closer together, dunno, mayby it's just me.
Anyhow, thanks for keeping this post flooded with top pixel art, it's a goldmine :y:
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Still kinda ambivalent about it though, since ii don't like is the fact that it adds a lot of colors to bg. that imo looks "busy" enough as it is.
hmm, yeah that's something for me to keep track of. Fil might be able to put in a limited palette sos i could simplify it, but that might be trying too hard to not pixel.
in the meantime, what goes well with robot crabs? robot swans of course. here's Cygnus model:
(http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/robotsmall.png) + (http://xs224.xs.to/xs224/08061/cygnus302.gif) = <3
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Swan? Sorry man, but it really doesn't look like a swan. More like a cross between a hawk and uhh.. one of those fat birds that lay eggs in other birds nests. (Ugh. That was an awkward comparison.)
Beyond the lack of likeness, it looks great. Though it looks like the back wheel is at a funny angle compared toe the front.
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Swan? Sorry man, but it really doesn't look like a swan.
im actually trying to keep the likenesses away from the constellations, hence no bird beak or yknow, feet :P. The crab also has a head, no claws, and a torso that is separated from it's legs ...^^
i know what you mean about the rear wheel though, i jsut don't know how to adjust it without making the thing a bicycle (right now it's a trike)
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i jsut don't know how to adjust it without making the thing a bicycle (right now it's a trike)
right now it looks like one push will completely topple it. Its a cool design but very un-balanced compared to the crab. I'd suggest moving the back wheel further back and to (our) right, peharps even outside of its body-work. real trikes have huge rear axels.
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training wheels will help :D Or maybe switch it to treads instead.
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wow, this project is really awesome!
keep it up!
I think that the tileset needs more contrast
cya!
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i know what you mean about the rear wheel though, i jsut don't know how to adjust it without making the thing a bicycle (right now it's a trike)
Trouble is it doesn't look like a trike. It looks like a bike.
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Constellation themed units? Getting a little too close to FFT now aren't you?
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it's cliche to base off constellations, but FFT, despite being a great game, did not have many (any) original ideas (magic stones what?), so i hardly see the connection. The robots would be based off of animals regardless, they just sound better in greek :P
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I disagree I think Crabby and Gobbles are way better names
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How about the Latin names for crab and swan (whatever those names are)?
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How about the Latin names for crab and swan (whatever those names are)?
cycneus or cygneus -a -um [belonging to the swan].
cygnus -i m. [the swan].
olor -oris m. [swan].
olorinus -a -um [of a swan].
cancer -cri m. [crab; a sign of the Zodiac]; meton. , [the south, or summer heat; the disease cancer].
caris -idis f. [a kind of crab].
nepa -ae f. [a scorpion; a crab].
spinosus -a -um [of thorns , thorny, prickly]; of style, [crabbed, obscure]; of feeling, [anxious].
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I like Nepa and Olor. Those sound cool.
On a side note, I took a couple of hours and read through this whole thread thoroughly. Amazing to watch the progress and see the great art skills. Kudos! Can't wait to play a demo of this baby!
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I like Meton. Sounds hard and heavy, (Metal+ton) seems fitting for the crab.
I, too like Olor. The two o's have a nice curvature to them. Makes the word seem almost graceful, 'specially if you do it in a nice font. Then again, it is just one letter away from both color and odor, so...
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Actualy, olor means odor/smell in spanish. The swan could throw stink bombs or something. :lol:
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Names can change at any time before release, we'll make those decisions later. right now it's easier for me to go with the current list since it's already in the concept sheets :P
(http://xs225.xs.to/xs225/08100/chara545.gif)
few characters. the one with the patterned cape needs work, i'll be getting to him. there's something very strange up with the palette that i need to look into.
first row - roarc c1, roarc c2, roarc c3, roarc c4 (we need to chose one of these designs! I really liked the red one, the first one i did, until my friend looked over and said, is that delita? and suddenly im like shit, the design is almost identical....), darius, masked man
second row - paris (shooter), minerva (pirate), guild/emtc officer (they handle investments), guild/emtc guard (they are on board ships later in the game to help the simple sailors), jimenez (merchant prince and enemy), imperial man-at-arms (enemy)
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Still kinda ambivalent about it though, since ii don't like is the fact that it adds a lot of colors to bg. that imo looks "busy" enough as it is.
hmm, yeah that's something for me to keep track of. Fil might be able to put in a limited palette sos i could simplify it, but that might be trying too hard to not pixel.
in the meantime, what goes well with robot crabs? robot swans of course. here's Cygnus model:
(http://pixeljoint.com/files/icons/robotsmall.png) + (http://xs224.xs.to/xs224/08061/cygnus302.gif) = <3
Correct me if I'm Wrong but it almost looks like the swan is in a different view than the crab it looks like a more top-downish view.
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I suspect you misread the figure of the swan.
You see, the darker blue on the mid-left side is its chest, with the green above it its eyes, the blue above that its head. Then on the bottom are 2 wheels (dark grey) covered by a lighter blue wing. The other wing is hidden. It is most definately the same view.
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I suspect you misread what I was trying to imply. :-\
Take second look and maybe you'll see what I mean.
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4190/newbitmapimagebn0.png)
They seem to be two different types of Isometric.
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im more inclined to agree with I Am Uh (on perhaps a less exaggerated level), although i appreciate the discussion :P.
will address a bit in edits when i find the time. the solution to the problem is probably to use legs, not wheels.
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I suspect you misread what I was trying to imply. :-\
Take second look and maybe you'll see what I mean.
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4190/newbitmapimagebn0.png)
They seem to be two different types of Isometric.
See what the difference between slightly less than 2:1 isometric and 2:1 isometric, as opposed to the difference of a topdown view and 2:1 isometric view. The fact you called it topdownish confused me, regardless of that, it indeed is at a different angle , but I do not think more of the top is revealed, I think they're just rotated differently - which is wrong I will not tell, as I can not see by eye this easily.
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Move the back wheel further back along the z-axis and your problem will be solved. :y:
I'm really digging the black girl with the big hair. She's much cleaner than some of the others.
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Move the back wheel further back along the z-axis and your problem will be solved. :y:
I'm really digging the black girl with the big hair. She's much cleaner than some of the others.
yeah, putting out roarc's different chapters really called attention to a few things, that being one of them. There's at least two completely different types right now - clean (minerva as you mentioned, and most of the older and newer ones) and busy (a sort of middle range reaching from after completing the first wave of designs to before i redid the girls), and theres sort of a "second and a half" type which is just lacking polish. something to work on!
remember of course that all that's shown here is the idle south sprites. once animation gets laid out they will sorta be assembly-lined to a smooth, uniform finish. i wont be sacrificing anything i don't think, just working faster and more methodically.
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Bumpdate - we've been thrown into turmoil by the prospect of NPA techniques taking over the larger graphics:
here's just a quick sketch :
(http://xs125.xs.to/xs125/08124/hmmmmmmm371.png)
that took at most 35 minutes while watching Dexter, trumping ridiculously the several hours spent on each pixel art portrait. Smoothing won't add too much time, either.
What to do, what to do?
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I think it would be fine to place some NPA portrait and cut scenes, for the game's sake. Just as long as you keep the current style he's shaded in right now...and in the hopes that there aren't characters that resemble cancer patients, whose names resemble anything close to Baldy MacCoolio. ;D
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Thats pretty cool, but what does NPA stand for?
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Non Pixel Art (using brushes, rescale, auto AA and such...).
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characters that resemble cancer patients
because he's bald and crosseyed, or because his skin palette?
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Possibly a bit of both. That grey colour (between his eye and his ear, etc) makes him look a little sickly.
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I really like the vectory look when coupled with pixel art. :)
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heh, i'm glad it's only a "vectory look," as taking the time to pen tool this would defeat the purpose entirely. It's actually done in MS Paint (photoshop hates my touchscreen)
(http://xs125.xs.to/xs125/08125/shot123.png)
sorry to derail will bring back tah pixels soon enough
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Theres a big clash in terms of level of detail between portrait and sprite. Almost like putting a stick figure next to a photo. I'd suggest simplifying the portrait to cartoony or anime.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/sharprm/portrait-1.gif)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/sharprm/portrait2.gif)
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^ couldnt dissagree more with the above.
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I think with an actual game project, practicality has to be thrown into the mix when it comes to making art decisions. Sure it would be great to have 100 percent pixelled portraits, but it would also be great to have every animation be 60fps, etc. Sometimes appeasing the purists has to take a back seat to actually finishing the project.
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I have to agree with sharprm, though you may not like it I do think theres too much of a jump with the portraits and the ingame graphics in my personal opinion. I don't think such a generic anime approach is so nescissary as suggested but why give yourself such a task by creating realistic portraits, I can't question your skill Adarias but I'd personally simplify it for yourself and find a balance between the two. But thats just an opinion, I actually love the querkiness of this.
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we've been looking primarily at comic styles so far, here's a sample with different artists' portraits scrolling past just for us to take a look:
(http://xs125.xs.to/xs125/08124/chomp654.gif)
The reason this more painterly approach was posted here is because we hadn't considered anything like it 'till yesterday.
Since we have a big rift, i'll respond to each in turn:
B.O.B. - what is it about the style that you think works, why must it stay that way, and is more comic-booky a better way to go?
Atnas - Your position is clear :y:
Sharpm - we do have doors and windows, but everything takes time to put in so when they aren't needed for a swatch, they aren't present.
(http://xs125.xs.to/xs125/08125/yup267.png)
misaligned here, but proof of existence.
You have a gift for hyperboles (http://xs125.xs.to/xs125/08125/exaggerated791.png), but your post leaves no questions as to your stance. :y:
Eck - your stance is also clear, but I'd love to know why you disagree?
Terley - you mention workload, but these portraits are far far easier for me to complete then the generic anime, because I don't draw anime much (and i paint all the time). If they were made more cartoony, it wouldn't be "for myself," it would be for the audience. Does that change your stance, or is there still too much of a jump?
Fil is perfectly ambivalent, and I'm not willing to take a stance quite yet.
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I like the look of the character with the blue hood and red hair. I quite dislike anime, but the simple shading and general style will fit quite well i think.
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I like the one with red hair and the blue hood.
It would be neat to see in the game when you come up to a mysterious character, he or she would be shaded like the guy after the blue hood and red hair.
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that was just to show that we were only looking at comic art for inspiration, this game has nothing to do with final fantasy III and isn't ever going to. that style is so far removed from ours that i won't even consider it tbh.
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no I suggested against anime :-\, just simplify it I meant. There isn't two catagories to pick from here Anime and non anime, why does everyone think that? May be easy for you to churn out these portraits but Im saying try not to stray so far from the overall style, the recent portrait just seems too distant from ingame than what you'd expect.
Im not saying simplify to help with production times, its all about consistancy. Or am I wrong about this?
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no I suggested against anime :-\, just simplify it I meant. There isn't two catagories to pick from here Anime and non anime, why does everyone think that? May be easy for you to churn out these portraits but Im saying try not to stray so far from the overall style, the recent portrait just seems too distant from ingame than what you'd expect.
Im not saying simplify to help with production times, its all about consistancy. Or am I wrong about this?
no, you aren't wrong, and there aren't just two categories, you just talk in circles a lot and it helps to get clarification (which you have given :y:).
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If you want us to properly discuss different styles, please put the sequence of characters in front of a finished mockup like this:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/17451.htm
Why isn't the house painted white like this:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/7177.htm
Is it only wood on the outside? (there's no texture to suggest that) Is it white paint but setting sun etc. making it look off white? I preffered the colors for brick and walls in the mockup. However, a dark roof would be better still.
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If you want us to properly discuss different styles, please put the sequence of characters in front of a finished mockup like this:
this project is going on and on in the WIP stage for the next few years, so there's no such thing as a finished mockup exactly, which makes things difficult. I should perhaps have taken a more filled one with recent tiles, and the latest image with the balcony represents the most up-to-date tiles, but even still uses a large amount of placeholders. the one you suggested has long since been discarded though for being too busy and jaggy. The palette is something i'll look into, as it's true things have gotten rather dark and dull, but that could just be my monitor again.
Why isn't the house painted white like this:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/7177.htm
Is it only wood on the outside? (there's no texture to suggest that) Is it white paint but setting sun etc. making it look off white? I preffered the colors for brick and walls in the mockup. However, a dark roof would be better still.
the walls are just daub, which comes in any color, but unpainted is just clay and shet. I could paint it white, but I never thought to. Other buildings may be white and it could be an alternative, too - i've been toying with how to make the houses different colors and visually interesting with the limited number of block tiles....we have what are called "misc" tiles but those can't be used at the same time as a window.....unless.....(goes to experiment)
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I actually think the first portrait in that sequence suits your sprites really well.
Following that, I think the FFIII (is it?) portrait works second best.
Keep well clear of the Fire Emblem style as it really doesn't match your sprites or tiles.
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I think the NPA style looks promising, although it looks a bit too dull and blurry compared to the sprites, so I'd sharpen it up a bit and emphasize the facial features a bit more for contrast. Maybe if you just scale it down without interpolation and clean it up a bit, it might fit better while still saving you time?
(http://www.retinaleclipse.com/newportraits2b.gif)
Here's my semi-realistic take on the portraits, where I used one of Nathan's earlier portraits as a template.
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thanks arachne.
just a quick fill-bucket change shows that white houses are interesting: edit - played even more, though these are only quick photoshop changes not actually done properly with tiles yet -
(http://xs125.xs.to/xs125/08120/testing770.png)
Not for Panto, but perhaps for another town.
the biggest issue i tihnk with the lighter walls on the dark wood is that it makes the house much more interesting as an object, but it's supposed to be the background. if i do go with white walls, i'll need to also lighter the wood etc so that the overall contrast remains muted.
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I'd say that the white and yellow versions of that wall are just so great, and they don't detract from the character at all IMO. I think you should definitely consider that for some of the towns. It's a nice clean contrast to your more intricate tiles. :y: :y:
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Just wanted to say that I read through this thread again from the top (well I skimmed some things) and it's a really enjoyable 2 year thread. Great critique in places, just plain interesting stuff in others. I don't know if we'll ever see this game in the end, but this thread is cool on its own anyway. Keep posting, let's make it another 2 good years of Partisan Tactics commentary and critique. And thanks to Ad... ndchristie for having us!
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I don't think you have to go as extreme to give the impression that the walls are white.
(http://www.burhtun.com/pixels/pixelhouses.png)
I also prefer your roof variants that aren't as high contrast. The harsh shadow/light division looks a little weird to me. In your examples I prefer the top right, and bottom two roofs. Maybe I'm just being finicky. But hey, pixel art is finicky.
I agree that the last portrait clashes with the game. Your pixel art has a cutesy look to it that the portrait doesn't have at all. Simplifying it may be the key... but I think many of us are so used to seeing Japanese style portraits to go along with Japanese style pixel art. We see chibi heads with large eyes on the sprites and assume the portraits will be the same. Finding a balance could be tricky.
Love the house by the way.
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I also prefer your roof variants that aren't as high contrast. The harsh shadow/light division looks a little weird to me. In your examples I prefer the top right, and bottom two roofs. Maybe I'm just being finicky. But hey, pixel art is finicky.
No, the high-contrast roof was actually a mistake that arose when i recolored a path tile that shared some palette entries, i just never went back to fix it. Also, as a quick note - we don't get to choose the shadow color of the walls - it is defined by a flat overlay. in these mockups, the shadow overlay color is (roughly) the same as the background color (that light blue) set on multiply. Arne will get me for that one I'm sure (shadows don't add! SHADOWS DON'T ADD!!!) but it's as close as we're coming (the alternative, a screen or even color dodge layer, doesn't look good at all, lags like hell, and doesn't allow for characters moving in and out of shadows properly)
I agree that the last portrait clashes with the game. Your pixel art has a cutesy look to it that the portrait doesn't have at all. Simplifying it may be the key... but I think many of us are so used to seeing Japanese style portraits to go along with Japanese style pixel art. We see chibi heads with large eyes on the sprites and assume the portraits will be the same. Finding a balance could be tricky.
I just can't draw good anime, which is a problem. To do portraits in that style requires either going way out of my way to adapt new stylistic points, or finding someone willing to join the team.
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also not sure if you're aware already, but theres something weird going on with the roof. Due to the diagonal on the inside corner of the roof, an optical funkamajig happens where the roof looks like its simultaneously on top of the house and inside of the house.
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Maybe if you just scale it down without interpolation and clean it up a bit, it might fit better while still saving you time?
Rescaling with bilinear filter gives a crisper result compared to bicubic, you can try that as well. it's what i use when rescaling low-res textures for my 3d work.
I think the design of NPA character looks fine as it is, I wouldn't force clichéd anime or anything like that.
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a few animation sketches - nothing well-finished, but they do exist
(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/hammer977.gif)(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/lance847.gif)(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/gun954.gif)
Two-handed hammers, spears/bills, muskets
(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/run2908.gif)(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/march355.gif)
running, marching
there's a few more but they need to be complied. I'm trying to wiggle all of the attacks and animations in with about 12 frames (which is harder than it sounded at first ^^)
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especially coming from you, that spear animation is REALLY boring. You have posted multiple spear/pike critiques and analyses before, you should definitely take your own advice on this one!! The hammer has a nice sense of weight, but the musket looks awkward and too closely held.
EDIT - oh my goodness it's actually in THIS thread too!
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=1343.msg46585;topicseen#msg46585
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I agree about the spear. Also there isn't really a sense of momentum with the hammer since it stops and starts almost instantly.
And this part isn't really a critique, but I made it anyway. Because I had to.
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f230/ben2theedge/spurt.gif)
OH NOES!!! :crazy:
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EDIT - oh my goodness it's actually in THIS thread too!
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=1343.msg46585;topicseen#msg46585
Ok, so more lively spear anim....but that's for a single-handed spear? Any suggestions for the two-handers shown here, where they can't change which foot is advanced? Or even, they really can't advance?
I've realized that fencing sabers require a lunging motion, so I may do this too with the big spears, but it's still tricky....hmmm...
more weight to the hammer...this can probably be done...perhaps even without adding torso frames, if i put some extra movement into his recovery (not pictured)...?
I'll see what i can do about the musket, will probably jsut move it out from the body a pixel or two.
thanks!
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Any suggestions for the two-handers shown here, where they can't change which foot is advanced? Or even, they really can't advance?
Just a little more punch, you know? Pull the spear back farther, pause for a moment, then lunge forward, arms fully extended, leaning way forward, you know? Might not be as historically accurate or realistically performed as you're trying for, but you gotta have some flare for oomph you know?
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Use your shoulders and shift that weight!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/SaboteurGreg/lanceForce.gif)
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Use your shoulders and shift that weight!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/SaboteurGreg/lanceForce.gif)
right, but it's not that simple. These frames are not unique to any animation, they are shared by several (otherwise every character will need hundreds of frames). I'm going to try something along those lines, but there's not quite that sort of freedom.
For instance, just of the four you see here, the lance and the gun use the same frames in different order, and two of those frames are also used in the hammer. swords and light spears/axes will use several frames from the hammer, only more widely spaced to allow for more "snappiness". you get the idea.
I will probably try something like that with the timing though (none of that has really been worked out yet).
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This might help it might not, but something like it could give the animation more "force".
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Demon_Fire_X/lancer.gif)
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This might help it might not, but something like it could give the animation more "force".
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Demon_Fire_X/lancer.gif)
actually, that gives me an idea.....if I use the frames from "blocking" (which is a lot like what you've shown) i can have the character rock back before attacking without adding more body frames......thanks!
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You're welcome. I love it how a simple edit can make connections to help solve things. In fact lots of things seem to do that.
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In all your edits the wrong leg moves. If you're gonna stab forewards, move the front leg more to the front, and increase your range. THrough your body in it to create force. One last thing though, a lance is more likely used to swing with.
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One last thing though, a lance is more likely used to swing with.
All the crits are good but a lance is a defensive thrusting weapon first and foremost and is often merely positioned and braced against a charging enemy. I'm not sure what lances you've been using.....but there's a reason we differentiate between these and other bladed/spiked weapons (like hammers, halberds, etc).
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Well, I agree that a lance is mostly used against charging enemy, but this all depends on the weapon we are talking about, Chinese spear for example is made more for swing attacks while European mediaval spears were mostly to stab.
As for attacking, is you want a stab animation for a spear you should make the character to advance forward whit his front leg, leaning his body forward as well.... his legs position would look a little like kiba-dachi (http://www.westwindkarate.com/kiba_dachi_copy.jpg) on karate.
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One last thing though, a lance is more likely used to swing with.
All the crits are good but a lance is a defensive thrusting weapon first and foremost and is often merely positioned and braced against a charging enemy. I'm not sure what lances you've been using.....but there's a reason we differentiate between these and other bladed/spiked weapons (like hammers, halberds, etc).
If you ride a horse with a lance, you wont get the time to swing so then yes, you stab and hope you hit.
If you stand in a massive battle with good armor, you can stab enemies that are not paying attention to you in particular, if you're less well armed you'd rather wound everyone around you instead of specifically kill one man so the others may hit through your defense.
If you stand in a one on one battle you get one chance to stab. If you don't kill your opponent there, he'll probably evade the lance and encounter you so close that you'd be off best if you throw the lance away and continue with the knuckles. If you DO stab the opponent but only wound him, it would've been better to swing your lance as it theatens more (keep enemy at distance) en has a greater impact due to speed.
Whe n carrying a lance, fight defensive, and only stab to kill.
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One last thing though, a lance is more likely used to swing with.
All the crits are good but a lance is a defensive thrusting weapon first and foremost and is often merely positioned and braced against a charging enemy. I'm not sure what lances you've been using.....but there's a reason we differentiate between these and other bladed/spiked weapons (like hammers, halberds, etc).
If you ride a horse with a lance, you wont get the time to swing so then yes, you stab and hope you hit.
If you stand in a massive battle with good armor, you can stab enemies that are not paying attention to you in particular, if you're less well armed you'd rather wound everyone around you instead of specifically kill one man so the others may hit through your defense.
If you stand in a one on one battle you get one chance to stab. If you don't kill your opponent there, he'll probably evade the lance and encounter you so close that you'd be off best if you throw the lance away and continue with the knuckles. If you DO stab the opponent but only wound him, it would've been better to swing your lance as it theatens more (keep enemy at distance) en has a greater impact due to speed.
Whe n carrying a lance, fight defensive, and only stab to kill.
that all *sounds* great, but you need to do some research - what on earth are you basing this on?? - the European spear is a stabbing weapon, period. history has a way of proving what works and what doesn't :). things like halberds became a popular alternative because you could bring it down with force, offering a distinct advantage over normal spear weapons if you could pass Point. Even so, side-side swinging of long pole weapons has never been a european thing (unless you count the ancient bulgarians and other steppe peoples, who probably picked it up from Tang merchants).
The european lance (and any other "true" spear) has a relatively small head, and it is not a good blade. swinging it would only allow the wielder to lose control over it's one real benefit - the point.
As far as the scenario where you fight one-on-one, yeah, you're right, you wouldn't bring a ten-foot weapon to the fight, lances are used to destroy slow-moving (or slow-turning) targets such as cavalry and other heavy infantry. A swordsman or even a billman would, in open ground, quickly advance past Point and destroy his target (yet another reason spear ranks were often supplemented by skirmishers and swordsmen - they would keep infantry away while the pikes protected them from enemy horse. As far as dropping the spear, this they also did when speed and mobility were with the enemy - they drew swords, in the same way that archers dropped bows, gunner dropped guns, and cavalry discarded lances as well, all for swords.
http://www.anselm.edu/academic/history/hdubrulle/WarandRevolution/graphics/Paintings%202004/mil%20rev%20pikeman.jpg (http://www.anselm.edu/academic/history/hdubrulle/WarandRevolution/graphics/Paintings%202004/mil%20rev%20pikeman.jpg)
http://www.anselm.edu/academic/history/hdubrulle/WarandRevolution/graphics/Paintings%202004/mil%20rev%20arquebusier%205.jpg (http://www.anselm.edu/academic/history/hdubrulle/WarandRevolution/graphics/Paintings%202004/mil%20rev%20arquebusier%205.jpg)
http://exileonthewing.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/archer.thumbnail.jpg (http://exileonthewing.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/archer.thumbnail.jpg)
http://www.allthequeensmen.com/images/vf2.jpg (http://www.allthequeensmen.com/images/vf2.jpg)
As for the asian stuff mentioned, i know that games tend to be pro japanese fighting styles, and we have our assassin classes that use ninja stuff (to pander to that audience), but the majority of the game is european.
truly the footing would depend on the context, stepping back for a counter and forward for, well, an advance....but he can step back without adding frames so I think that will be the decision.
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Theres a big clash in terms of level of detail between portrait and sprite. Almost like putting a stick figure next to a photo. I'd suggest simplifying the portrait to cartoony or anime.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/sharprm/portrait-1.gif)
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/sharprm/portrait2.gif)
I agree 100%.
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I disagree 100%.
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I agree 100%.
I disagree 100%.
lol....
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I agree with neither... or both. Whichever one.
While I do believe the style of the portrait would, ideally, be best if it matched the style of the sprite. But realism-- It would be very yummy in this.
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Go for realistic and detailed. Let's explain the why with an example. While playing starcraft I (or seeing trailers of II), you will see the cool, broadly muscled, tattooed, foul mouthed, cigarette(?spelling) smoking marine. While in fact you don't see that reflected in the sprite. You DO see it in cutscenes and conceptart, these two give you the feel of what you're playing with, even though the actual thing is far less detailed. So the point is, if you add details to the large portrait of the character, you can show what he is like, in a detailed way that can not be done in-game.
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zuloon + following >> We've never been going for that style of portraits you quoted. As far as I remember it's something which randomly popped in the discussion.
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I think whether the style of the portrait matches the sprite, is completely subjective. The in-game graphics are not 100 percent realistic, they are a representation of the characters that has been exaggerated to accomodate the gameplay. You could make a game like this with extremely realistic-looking characters but you would lose a lot of the readability since the details would have to be so incredibly small. So there is a clear advantage to making short stubby cute characters for the onscreen battle stuff.
With the portraits there is no such handicap; with the size they are, an artist is freed up to do whatever he wants. With all of that detail to work with, it enables the possibility of showing subtle nuances of the character; I would argue that this is the entire point of the portraits - to give us a much better idea of the character's appearance, personality, etc. So the advantages of making everyone look like cute anime clones suddenly vanishes. (A good example is Final Fantasy Tactics, a game that I love, but the portraits are worthless. Everyone looks exactly the same, even the exact same facial expression, so why bother?)
Short version: The characters on the map are more like icons of the characters. They represent only the basic facts like what kind of armor they're wearing, and some small details like hairstyle. The portraits because they are much larger can fill in details like age, personality, history, emotion, origin, pedigree, and the list goes on and on. This should be taken full advantage of IMO. They should be drawn in whatever style is best/most comfortable for making a detailed description of who that character is.
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(http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/gun954.gif) (http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08214/lance847.gif)
old gun and large spear
(http://xs230.xs.to/xs230/08315/longgunattack509.gif) (http://xs230.xs.to/xs230/08315/pikeattack979.gif) (http://xs230.xs.to/xs230/08315/spearattack763.gif)
new gun, large spear, small spear. third one needs better movement but there's 2 more frames to be inserted - i'm taking a poll as to where they belong :P (all attacks will be 8 frames)
essentially what i learned from the critique here is not to assume you can't, as actually, the changes to the spear frames do not really damage the gun animation or vice versa. in fact, it more resembles this tracing of a contemporary illustration : http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/Arq1620.jpg . that realization in mind i did most of what was suggested...
included the bounding box so you can see my limitations. we will be able to include a lot outside the character with animation....but the weapons themselves are cramped
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too much weight shifting going on at the leg level, make him twist his torso some more. The short spear also needs more arm/torso movement, it's smaller but it's also lighter and it makes him freer, that should show in the animation.
the gun really needs to change a lot, looks too much like the spear. I think it should be higher and facing more frontally so it looks like he's actually aiming worth a damn.
EDIT: whoops sorry. dont really keep up with your topic.
if you're so sparse for frames use computer tricks: squash/stretch, rotate, maybe scroll certain tiles a bit....squash/stretch is even considered one of the "12 animation principles" so there's no real shame in doing it wisely, specially for tweeners.
I think you should rework your frame sharing a bit so that each action remains with a little more personality, everything but the hammer just sucks. I'd have the hammer be the stock for all the wind ups of the rest of animations....while following the arc of a vertical sword slash.
The gun definitively should have a legitimate aiming frame or it'll just look like rubbish, the rest of the animation can be a mix of recoils from vertical sword slash and windup from the lance animation.
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well it's hard to see, but the one-handed spear he rotates 180 degrees - hard to move much more than that!
i'll try raising the gun, and perhaps lengthening the aim time, but this is a regular attack, aka not aimed. there are skills that involve aiming, but the regular attack won't (as is accurate to guns prior to 1800).
a little more personality, everything but the hammer just sucks.
can you be a little more specific on how i should change these? and avoid vague flamewords if you don't mind - they don't help me identify the problem. Fact is, I wouldn't change these at the moment even if they were not sharing frames, so we're really talking a different language so far.
How exactly would i use the hammer spin for other weapons? I'm not sure I follow.
I'm *thinking* (correct me if i'm wrong) that you're talking about making the attacks a bit more acrobatic? just guessing from the suggestion that every character do a 360 before every attack. thing is, that's not how weapons are used. this musket for instance, famous for it's kick, the firing is almost still http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJMbxZ1k9NQ&feature=related .
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Actobatic? not really, no. Sorry about the flame words.
What I was trying to say is that the hammer has a completely diferent range of movement than the rest, while the gun and lance barely seem like slight variations of eachother, as similar as the diferent sizes of lance animations.
I was suggesting that to make sure that no actions reasemble eachother as much as the gun and spear do, you should design it so that they all share more of an overall arch of movement, while the most attention grabbing frames (perhaps those with the biggest delay) of each one of them are unique to each action.
What bugs me really is that the shooting really seems like the lance animation only that instead of sticking it in, it spouts fire. You obviously know this is not right since you have refference for the exact musket you want to show, and the refference clearly shows the torso facing the target....and the musket animation you have just doesnt seem like proper shooting position at all.
The differentiation between the lance lengths seems too fuzzy to me right now, the way I would go about it is the smaller the lance, the more arm and torso freedom you see in the action, while the bigger it gets the better the thrust is and the more time it takes to build up...this way the differentiation is put in the basic look in the anim rather than the nuances.
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(http://xs230.xs.to/xs230/08322/longgunattack673.gif)(http://xs230.xs.to/xs230/08315/pikeattack979.gif)(http://xs130.xs.to/xs130/08322/spearattack253.gif)
just 2 edits for clarity, - timing in the gun and color-coding in the small spear - no real work done yet.
the torso direction issue i'll try to resolve, but I'm struggling - it would be a pain in the ass to give everyone a 100% unique frame for the gun, so until I figure out what else it can be used for, I need to keep it using shared frames. If i can find reasons it will probably be split off from this current set, simply due to the level of criticism...if i play the cards right I may be able to do handguns, cannon-firing, and rifles with the slightly more squared torso...but i need to think about it a lot. For the record though the torso is not the way I have it (perpendicular), but it's "clearly" not towards the target either http://dalecot.com/Musket%20EC170607.jpg . Honestly though if anyone here fires guns and has real knowledge (rather than photo knowledge), I'm trying to remember what they told us in boyscouts but it's foggy.....
What concerns me is that there's actually very little in common between these animations, in terms of the movements, at least to my eyes...the small spear is completely different from the large spear (it's one-handed, he turns 180 degrees....there's no "nuance" about that??) So I just don't know what to do with that critique. I'm racking my brain but I'm just not knowing what to do or say.
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uhm I took a bit closer look at each of the lance/spike/spear/whatever they are attacks...and you say they are all completely different...but I only see a difference in arm placement.
Are you working with pre-set torso parts? it seems to me like you want each attack to look different because you make a different arm placement, and I just noticed it has different footing...but quite honestly it doesnt show, it doesnt have an effect on the timing or the flow of movement in the animation. however you have drawn each separate animation, they still follow the same exact flow.
seems to me, like your only problem isnt the limited amount of parts you have...but that you arent really using what little variety you CAN use to make things SEEM varied.
I looked at them a bit more closely and I can see the differences between the spear attacks is their arm placement, and in the short one the footing, but you still go trough all the same stages in all of them. you have him stand on one leg, step forward with his lance completely horizontal and then take a step back. not even the timing is too different....if you absolutely have to make them all go trough the same motions atleast make it so the timing is noticeably different...have him stab quick with the short one, and take a lot more time to draw the weapon back in the bigger the weapon gets
I just have to ask, do thes shape of these attacks have any effect on the collision detection of your game? because if there isnt a technical reason for him to go trough the exact same motion...maybe you should have him attack downwards with his spear in one, with the other one upwards...and with the long one forwards...who cares?
You need to go a little crazy, I think you should stop being so accurate, and just put anything in there that will stand out....I mean the fact you're re using so much stuff already makes it bland to go and make it bland by choice.
I'm going to insist again on implementing some kind of software trick to stretch/rotate/scroll independant parts of the sprites....it helped ragnarok characters be lively, it should help you too.
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I'm going to insist again on implementing some kind of software trick to stretch/rotate/scroll independant parts of the sprites....it helped ragnarok characters be lively, it should help you too.
Except that RO's sprites were much larger, were they not? I can't imagine scaling and rotation on sprite parts that consist of only a handful of pixels would be very pretty. Probably downright ugly, in fact.
Adarias, for the musket, the firing stance right now isn't very convincing at all. While you're not typically supposed to have your body square to the target (at least for long arms), the typical shooting stance for a rifle has your body bladed (let's just say 45 degrees, give or take). They way your sprite is holding the musket wouldn't be able to deal with recoil of any sort.
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uh, it's not the same by any means but it's not imposible at all, it'd only mean you rotate/stretch by 2 pixels instead of 20 also keep in mind I'm not saying make "Ragnarok: The Adrias rpoff" I'm just saying maybe if he needs to tween something it could be done trough rotating/stretching/scrolling instead of actual frames, given that he's so sparse for them.
You can look at castlevania for pixeled stuff that gets animated only by being rotated trough software. a
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Oh I remember that skeleton dog what was it from SotN? Can you post it again? I don't know where other people stand on this one but I find that sort of animation, without EXTENSIVE reworking after it to look pretty attrocious.
(http://www.locustleaves.com/hero_jumping.gif)
I did this piece a year ago or something for a pay gig and it was based on rotating and reworking, so yes, it can work in small resolutions but you don't achieve much you wouldn't without rotating besides keeping the lengths of the limbs to correct aspects.
If Ndchristie is not going to tween at all for these animations (and for time constraint reasons I guess he will not) then he should not rotate stuff, I think. Just make sure the keyframes he does use are as good as he can get them.
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Following this critique is going to take a lot of adjusting for me, in that I only know how to animate what people do - there's ways to attack with a spear and a thousand other ways not to, but for some reason I can only wrap my mind around the first. Why do they both have a similar thrust? Because that thrust kills men! And that's all my imagination has room for atm.
Honestly i'm not sure what I'm doing technically - this seems to be proving that shared frames is a total bust - but software stuff isn't going to happen. I don't have the skill sets let alone the desire to work in that manner. Besides - as you pointed out - this is not an issue of frames so much as it is an issue of imagination. Truth be told, I think that these are some of my best movements to date, so you can see how I'm struggling with the idea that you can't even see the differences :). Feels kinda like running a mile under 7:14 (personal best) during olympic tryouts :P.
So, this realization that animation is more than just placing limbs in the right spot is something between a mental overload and a crossing point (can you have an epiphany without being successful?), I'm going to table these again I think, and give this another long, hard thought. Maybe play a few games. Thanks for the advice, I'll be back around when I have an idea of how to take it :).
These are still high-frame-count animations, which are unusual in tactics situations, so perhaps when I come back i'll try 2-3 frame unique animations (not counting idle). Idle-Setup-Attack-Continue or Recover if needed, just to get on with the form. It's not going to help the timing but I don't think i can take on timing and form and all at the same time at this point - my head's exploding with just part of any one of those - Forgive me!
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lmao....that's so cool of you to accept that!
You're good at animating, but...I dont know it just seems so weird that you dont want to put personality in it when my problem is I put so much that it tends to cripple the animation XD I think you could still go trough the correct way of using a spear, but show varying degrees of force and accuracy
I've been playing this Genesis game lately...I think it's pretty good at making low-count animations seem good, it's called ComixZone
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azIZwsCGjW0
There's a Gameboy one called Star Ocean Blue, that one's really good at it too (that game is just a great example of hi-restrictions hi-quality all around)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eezy56wofc&feature=related too bad it's in japanese
Helm: I thought of posting it but I cant remember what it was called or where it was! it's actually a sprite from DraculaX that I re-animated trough only rotation and scrolling single pixels.
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(http://xs232.xs.to/xs232/08404/newslash106.gif)
ok, so this is not necessarily a rough draft for partisan, and has no meat on it yet, but this is just a short animation of a simple slash, trying to get some OK primary motion for it in short frames.
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Juts something to help you and he other people working on your game: anyone who is making a histoical style game with combat should read this:
http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/silver/silverHome.htm (http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/silver/silverHome.htm)
The paradoxes of defense,and his instructions on using weapons, by George Silver, who, l ready in his time, just before 1600, had to combat the many misunderstandings there are about fighting with a hand to hand weapon. Read it, and pass it on to your programmers, I think he's correct about most of what he is saying.
Of the plethora of swords you have in concept, most is useless. If you want to go for a more realistic angle, read up more about historic weapons too.