Pixelation
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: lithander on May 23, 2010, 07:10:47 pm
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Hi there!
I'm reading this forum for a while now and it motivated me to pickup work on a project that involves pixel graphics. But after having spend some time here I learned that pixel graphic is more then low-resolution images and in retrospective my take at "bringing it to a new level" now seems rather pretentious. Breaking the rules deliberately requires to know them. So while there are other reasons that make it worthwhile for me to continue working on the game I'd really like to hear some opinons of pixel pro's. What aesthetic impression does the game have on you? Are there elements you think are interesting or even beautiful? What details annoy you? (Annoyance like in seeing an advertising using "Comic Sans" ^^ )
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5337/2shotsp3.jpg)
You can play a prototype here. Click the swf to give it keyboard focus and run around using the cursor keys.
http://www.swfcabin.com/swf-files/1266178842.swf
I've also experimented with different post-processing approaches to accentuate the pixels. (You probably need a decent monitor to see the differences)
(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7903/postfx.png)
General feedback & tips for (visual) improvment are very welcome!
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I like the game, though very slow-paced. (F5 doesn't work to refresh page, the embedded Flash movie object captures all keyboard input in FF) It looks very cool. I like all the colors. Those stupid iron golumns keep crushing me, though. No run key? Like SHIFT maybe.
Pixel purism is everyone's choice. I, for instance, am not a purist. I love pixel art however I feel like creating it. I don't hold myself to any certain "code of ethics" when creating it, such as using only the pencil tool and no layers. That's rubbish. For others, they love it. It's a challenging hobby. More power to them. If that's what they like, it's what they like. The trouble begins when such individuals push their ideals on others and reject the validity of others' work if not done according to their "specs".
So some here will think your uninhibited usage of alpha fading for shadows is ridiculous while others think nothing of it.
I seem to see your game's shadows as independent of the level graphics, on a separate layer. I think it works ok. But now what if your gfx were smooth computer AA'ed full-color graphics. I think it might work even better. Though it looks like you're scaling the flash 200%, so this means 2x the graphics you'd need to make. Could the shadows be pixel art? Wouldn't nearly as shady and shadow anymore. That wouldn't work. You've got lots of layered blending occurring with colors and light sources and shadows. I don't think there's another way.
I don't like either of the post-processing filters you've tried so far. I don't think you need one. Most everything is already bathed in neat blending/color-shifting. Oddly I just posted (http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=10408.0)about applying global filters to pixel art games in order to mimick old CRT TV displays. If you have anything on that, please lemme know.
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The masking works great. I like it!
Being consumed by darkness kinda looks like being consumed by bats though. I would expect being consumed by darkness to be dark shadowy hands reaching out and pulling me into the shadows, kinda like in the movie "Ghost" with Patrick Swayze.
And I agree. the visual LCD/Printer post-processing is unnecessary, except to include as a nice gimmick in the options perhaps.
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Great to hear that you like the look and my lighting/shadow approach! :)
Being consumed by darkness kinda looks like being consumed by bats though. I would expect being consumed by darkness to be dark shadowy hands reaching out and pulling me into the shadows, kinda like in the movie "Ghost" with Patrick Swayze.
Problem is, that not all dark areas are equally dangerous. Some house monsters, most dark places don't. The player needs to be able to know a place is dangerous before actually running into it. So I need some visual cues like the glowing eyes.
Those stupid iron golumns keep crushing me, though. No run key? Like SHIFT maybe.
The slow pacing is deliberate. I try to create an atmosphere that is different from arcade, twitchy games that mostly test your reflexes. A sprint function (which I tried) makes you wish to sprint all the time and you feel punished when you can't. Moving a lot faster by default changes the gameplay considerably (it's harder to make sense of your sourroundings and react in time to things at the edge of your line of sight).
But I agree that the iron golems are not fun to interact with at the moment. I wan't to try to tweak their movement so that they are generally faster then the player, maybe even building up speed over time but turning slows them down considerably and when they lose LOS of the player they abort the chase. If that doenst work out they get removed.
But now what if your gfx were smooth computer AA'ed full-color graphics. I think it might work even better. Though it looks like you're scaling the flash 200%, so this means 2x the graphics you'd need to make.
I scale by 300%. The main reason is performance: Flash is very fill rate limited especially when blending is involved but creating a small resolution image with only 200x200 pixels and scaling it up is reasonably fast. And pixel graphics are just efficient - I can create 16x16 sprites reasonably fast and decent looking. But I doubt I could achieve the same quality with HD graphics let alone in the same time. But all this is mostly pragmatic reasons - if the constrast of "retro" pixel graphics and "modern" concepts of simulated light and shadow is a viable style is a different question. (which is why I posted and asked for opinions^^)
Two votes against the post processing... :(. But making it optional and allow the player chose is a good idea!
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I'm planning to look for a sponsor for this game when it's done and I was thinking about the little thumbnail preview that most portals show alongside the name of a game. That's the only thing people will see when they decide to try the game or leave it. So I guess it should be as awesome as possible if I want players to play the game I put so much effort in. Sadly that means it's better not designed by me without help! :)
So, I thought I might just ask a real artist for help and pay for it.
But I've never in my live comissioned anything. How to approach it? Idealistic as I am I believe that a pixel artist should actually enjoy that kind of assignment - could I offer to host some kind of contest where the winner get's a price of X$ and I get to use his thumbnail? Or is it better to look on artist boards (like this but maybe also pixeljoint or newgrounds or deviant art) for people with good references and ask them if they want a mini-job? How can I make sure that the result is high quality? (because if it's not I could just make a collage of my sprites&title and be done with it)
I guess I'm confused. Opinions & Tips?
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My opinion as a coder and not-entirely-crap pixeller is that you should definitely, definitely do everything yourself. Because if I could do pixel art like yours, I would never have even thought about bringing someone else on board.
Never forget the management overheads in trying to have your artists create things exactly to the specs your game requires. In other words, the more you can keep in one head, the better. Communication is costly.
And P.S., if I could afford to hire you as pure artist for my game, and if you were willing, I would.
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By the way, how many colours have you used in your base palette? It's difficult to tell because of the overlays.
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Hey Nick!
Thanks for the flattering comments regarding my artworks. I think I blushed a little. Especially when you ask about "palette size" and I'd have to answer that I don't know. I didn't use a palette. I picked colors from my image when possible and mixed a new one whenever I felt it was missing. And in the end I had way more colors then I needed to. Today there's no technical constraint to save colors. However, I have to admit, that my best sprites (which happen to also be the last ones I did) have a more constraint palette. Like 30 or some such and some are very similar and could probably be merged, too.
But keep in mind that the way I use them in my game to generate the final image is very undraditional and more inspired by techniques from the 3d world so the final color depends not only on the diffuse and ambient component of the sprite but also on the lights that affect the pixel.
As for my plan to hire an artist for the thumbnail. I commissioned an artwork to be used as a thumbnail and it was very interesting to go through that process. Also quite fun to tell someone what you want and see 'em making it real! That's usually my job... Anyway, I'm very happy with the result:
(http://files.pixelpracht.net/rh_thumb200x200.png)
Only a couple of days and I'm gonna upload a beta-version on FlashGameLicense. Really excited how the "get your game sponsored" thing turns out for me and how it all works.
What kind of game are you working on, Nick?
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Hey,
That is great news lithander, I am really happy for you. I hope it gets good coverage -- I've been reading quite a lot about marketing recently and, at least for dedicated indies, they say you need to continuously find new channels to market and improve efficiency on your older ones on a regular basis if you want to maximise returns on the work you've already done. Assuming you're charging for the game (since you mention FlashGameLicense) that might be valid for you. Whether you're charging or not, I still think it would be a waste if a lot of folks didn't see your game, because it's really nice-looking and the play is straightforward, too.
Like the thumb -- that's super. Looks like you found the right person for the job. Where did you find them? DeviantArt?
Mine's a top-down action RPG, which is part of why I was excited to see your work, although mine's pure bird's-eye view for reasons of simplicity/time/money. Without the sort of oblique perspective that Rune Hunt has, it will be harder to make things look good -- lighting will be top-down, too, so that I can rotate the sprites. It's all about economizing... I'll find a way to make the art look good. This is more about the gameplay, since I'm taking the episodic approach -- sequels, addons will appear if the first game is well-received. And if so, then hopefully I can attract funding for an artist later on. The gameplay, aside from being similar to something like Gauntlet or Crimsonland, is based around the interaction of various elements in the world to create new elements to your tactical advantage, a sort of alchemy really. It's a little less action than a shmup, and a lot more tactics.
If you ever want to chat or anything, you can grab my email from my profile here... I am always keen to stay in touch with other indies, especially those who do some of their own art because I'm kinda in the same boat.
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Assuming you're charging for the game (since you mention FlashGameLicense) that might be valid for you. Whether you're charging or not, I still think it would be a waste if a lot of folks didn't see your game, because it's really nice-looking and the play is straightforward, too.
I'm not charging a player, I'm charging a potential sponsor for the right to brand my game. He'll get to place a splash-screen infront of the game. His logo on the menu page and a "More Games" button that'll lead players to his website (which for most sponsors is some kind of flash game portal). The player is not paying a cent and is not (if I'm not getting convinced otherwise) even bugged with a pre-loader-advertisement ala Mochi-Adds. It's a win-win-win situation. I get cash, the portal gets site impressions and the player gets a free game. Cool thing for me is that a sponsor is not only paying me but also actively spreading the game to the bazillions of flash portals. And reaching a large audience is kinda important for me. At least that's the theory and I'm curious how it works in practice!^^
Looks like you found the right person for the job. Where did you find them? DeviantArt?
Aye, been browsing deviant art profiles and when I liked the work displayed there I just shot em a short message. Most didn't reply, some asked for 200$ per hour while I was looking for a fixed price. But lastly I found the perfect match. However establishing the contact and working out the details took hours (of my free time).
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Re FlashGameLicense, my bad, I wasn't thinking... at a certain stage I was looking at that sort of thing but at the moment my mind is a bit closer to shareware distribution of a desktop game, and/or publishing via Facebook if possible.
So yeah -- I know exactly what you're talking about -- my bad.
Don't complain too much about losing hours of your free time -- from what I read on your site you're currently employed full-time. It is MUCH worse when you're in the position I am -- sink or swim. But for some of us that's the only way to put pressure on to really make the push and succeed in such a competitive field.
EDIT: And not only that, but also to have the freedom of mind to work be able to really work efficiently on game design and visual design, both of which need a lot of focus.
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The free time in parantheses wasn't meant as a complaint. Quite the opposite: I could afford to spend hours searching for an artist because it was my free time. The only reason I'm actually doing game development in my spare time is what you mentioned in your post: the context of the activity makes a huge difference in how satisfying it is. I buy the freedom to work on my own project at my own pace by having a full time job paying my bills. I might not have much time and energy left to focus on my game that way but I can do things that are not comercially profitable.
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I hope I didn't come across as know-it-all, there. You are fortunate if your work still leaves you at least *some* peace of mind to work on your things, either way, as it clearly does. It's interesting to hear how different people go about things. So often we think our own way is the only way, eg. one might for example put all indie developers in a box. But there are as many ways as there are individual developers, of course. Or artists :)
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It's done! :)
http://armorgames.com/play/6963/rune-hunt
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I'm playing it during breaks! :) Nice work Lith!
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I like the design of the game overall and it was fun, but it was a bit more than my poor laptop could handle.
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I really like the game, so I'm going to express my love in my own special way;
HARSH CRITICISM!
The pixel art is good! Everything is nice and pretty. The AA is really nice!
The crystals don't really look glow-y. :S (The fungi do though!)
EDIT: An odd thing I just noticed... in the thumbnail his cloak is red, but in the game it's white... ?
However, some of the art looks off to me... simply because it's shaded.
Some sprites, like the main character, are shaded even though light sources are dynamic, which can look really odd.
Speaking of which, the dynamic lighting blew me away- it's really cool! I loved how the lights changed when doors closed and stuff, it was entertaining to just mess with that for a while! :D
The music is good! The sound effects really add a lot to the game and I feel a little on edge all of the time because of it.
I feel that in the beginning of the game there isn't reason to really be afraid of the cave other than it being creepy, and that the music should reflect that.
It would also be really cool to have a much more forboding and creepy music play when you approach the bat things... reactive music, you know?
I don't really like the gameplay though. :(
There isn't a driving mechanic to make me want to play more... if I stand still nothing will happen.
I think it needs to be a bit more active, and have a driving force so you're always moving and doing things.
Spoilers --*
The father's death seems like it should have been a bit more dramatic/traumatic...
There were five seconds of "OH NO HE'S DEAD" *sob* and nothing more really came out of it. :S
Maybe while you're returning to him you should hear him scream?
Being just a bit too late to save your father is much more moving than just finding him dead.
I think perhaps the boy should have had a bit more hatred for the bats? They killed his father, after all.
I'm not saying it's unreasonable to just make the boy scared of them, but it seems like that shouldn't be the only emotion.
The father seemed like a charming fellow, and you did a nice job on that!
I feel (mildly) attached to the father- which is good! You don't know how many games completely fail at character development!
... but perhaps you should have given the player more time to know the father. It's sort of odd to not really care about the father and then have the boy sob about his death... it would help the player feel the boy's pain.
*--
Despite the flaws I still like it. :)
Favorited!
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Thanks for the indepth review! :)
The crystals don't really look glow-y. :S (The fungi do though!)
I couldn't be bothered to redo all my earlier sprites. I learned a lot along the go. Stuff like the lava chasm and the alter look a lot better (to me) then the early stuff so I guess I improved! :)
EDIT: An odd thing I just noticed... in the thumbnail his cloak is red, but in the game it's white... ?
The thumnail is a comissioned artwork and I felt it would be really picky to critisize things like that. On the other hand a dark cloak just doesn't work ingame. So there is this oddity! :)
However, some of the art looks off to me... simply because it's shaded.
One of my lessons learned: the less colors the better. But the dynamic shading does not reflect direction so some kind of shading is always needed to hint at the shape.
Speaking of which, the dynamic lighting blew me away- it's really cool! I loved how the lights changed when doors closed and stuff, it was entertaining to just mess with that for a while! :D
It all started with the thought "what if you combined oldschool pixel graphics with dynamich light and shadow?". Glad you liked the result. The dynamic lighting is really quite powerfull to make decent art look a lot better and technically it's not even hard to do. The shadow-caster stuff gave me more problems. AS3 and math don't play well (e.g. fast!) together.
It would also be really cool to have a much more forboding and creepy music play when you approach the bat things... reactive music, you know?
I searched for a DRM free sound fitting the mood. The stuff you have in mind would really add to the game but would probably mean investing $$$ into getting custom music and SFX made for the game. But if I get to make another game I'l consider it.
I don't really like the gameplay though. :(
I had this childhood memory of being lost in the caves of "The Legend of Kyrandia". My friend and me were drawing maps on paper and just refused to give up. And getting out again felt so great because it was really just our perseverance that made us live through. I modelled the game after it. It's probably not a good idea to get good ratings but I think it plays a important part in the atmosphere the game creates. Might be wrong, though! ;)
There were five seconds of "OH NO HE'S DEAD" *sob* and nothing more really came out of it. :S
Yeah, I just couldn't immagine how someone would react in such a situation (other then being sobbing and crying a lot _longer_ which would probably anoy players!) and how to express it in english. I'll probably not do any story driven game anytime soon. :P
Maybe while you're returning to him you should hear him scream?
Being just a bit too late to save your father is much more moving than just finding him dead.
True. Good idea. And the fire should have went out. We all know that darkspawn don't attack people in the light.
I think perhaps the boy should have had a bit more hatred for the bats? They killed his father, after all.
The eyes in the dark are supposed to be a personification of darkness nothing personal you could hate. More or less a placeholder of unknown danger. I failed at conveying that.
... but perhaps you should have given the player more time to know the father.
A lot of peole didn't like the beginning too much before the tradgedy happened. I'm not sure if for them the game had improved if I had build more of a father-son relationship here.
All in all thanks a lot for your constructive feedback. It feels great to see people care about my creation and thinking about how it could be improved! :) With most of it I agree but it's damn hard to make the perfect game! I'll try to do it better next time! :)
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A lot of people didn't like the beginning too much before the tragedy happened. I'm not sure if for them the game had improved if I had build more of a father-son relationship here.
I have seen games handle this in s couple of ways I can think of off the top of my head.
You could start play as the father for the first coupla easy missons
Alternatively you could have the father with the son for a number of early 'missions' as a sort of walk-through/easy/training mode. (comes along with a torch/lantern for parts of the early missions, or something)This effectively builds a low level of dependency. (Gotta go back and check something at camp *ACK* I am dead.)
You could also have the player complete tasks for the father (let's say retrieving the runes and bringing them back), and then put them in a position that forces them to fail. As you bring the runes back he can provide back-story. Once that is sufficiently developed then you put them in a situation that is timed, or that required a number of runes, or both (oh noes, I am poisoned and require a certain number of runes to cure myself.) The son could get back in time to hear/see the father die, but too late to save him.
Anyway, like I said: these are just off the top of my head. I am sure that other people can think of more and better examples.
Also: have him turn into a red-eye-monster as a possibility.
Also: some Lovecraft might help here: this: http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cs.asp (http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cs.asp), or this: http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/mb.asp (http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/mb.asp), but really any of his writings might give you ideas for how to convey the flavor (out of space) of your story.
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Swap Brain!
Cool discussion. Pitty Rune Hunt is over. But maybe there'll be a Rune Hunt 2 some day? (If someone wants to make it I'll supply the tech)
I like your ideas. I really do. But most of them mean a lot more effort then the current introduction, too. The father sprite at the moment doesn't even have walking animations. :o)
I love games like "Uncharted 2" which is a prime example for successful storytelling and characterbuilding in a game. I think I even read a book on story-telling in games of one of the writers. But most of his tricks don't work at all in a solo project that you do in your spare time. :(
Lovecraft! :) I started reading his short stories a couple of weeks ago. I love the way he uses sober language to create intense atmosphere. But in a game you can't rely on words so much. And to be honest the dialogue in the stories I've written so far is not very good. Shadow over Insmouth for example. Characters hold endless monolugues that are cool in a book but won't work for a game at all.
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Yes, on the other hand Lovecraft is notoriously bad for violating one of the few commandments of writing; "Show, don't tell." In my opinion this is what kept him from being a truly great writer. See: Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath. When he gets it right, though, it is pretty great.
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Yes, on the other hand Lovecraft is notoriously bad for violating one of the few commandments of writing; "Show, don't tell." In my opinion this is what kept him from being a truly great writer. See: Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath. When he gets it right, though, it is pretty great.
He is a truly great writer, in my opinion. There are no rules to writing, just snobs. That you require a particular style of reading material is ???
The main thing about Lovecraft's writings and his main element is that there are things which we don't know/understand, and if we were to learn of these truths, it would be too much for our minds to comprehend and would drive us insane. The universe is so large and vast, we are but an insignificant grain of sand. The Old Ones aren't evil per se, they just operate on another level than we, such that we don't understand and they treat us as we would treat an ant or blade of grass. If you have any questions about Lovecraft I'd be happy to share more information. I have all of his stories collected and have some of his philosophical works and others.
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This is all that I will say, so as to avoid further derailing:
I have read the vast majority of Lovecraft and like him. In fact, I link to an online repository of his writing above.
However, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show,_don%27t_tell
if you have any other questions PM me.
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On a unrelated note, showing versus telling can be applied to video game design.
Take this discussion about Super Mario Bros. for NES:
Interestingly, in the very first portion of World 1-1, the developers designed it so that the a newcomer almost always gets a Mushroom. In the first level, there are blocks that the player goes under. A menacing Goomba approaches the player, and instinctively the player jumps over it. By the time the player reaches the Goomba and jumps, they will hit a ? block above that would reveal a mushroom. The mushroom goes to the right, hits a pipe and comes towards the player. Since the mushroom resembles the Goomba, the player thinks to jump over it again. Doing this, however, will almost always lead the player to jump right into the Mushroom since after they jump they hit another block from above which causes them to come back to the ground and hit the mushroom. This was to teach players that Mushrooms were a positive thing in the game.
Compare that to current games where every tiny detail is explained ad nauseum throughout the entire game.