Threw this together last minute for the Shrouded in Mist challenge. It feels incomplete and unpolished. At a glance, what areas of improvement do you see?
Is there a way to make it less dim without sacrificing the tone of the piece?
How could I make the light source read more like fog spilling in from the doorway? I tried scrubbing detail for things covered by the light, but that didn't work as I'd hope, it just reads like an exceptionally bright light.
I'm very envious of people like AbyssWolf, whose work has such an air of completeness and polish to it.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Manupix on September 01, 2014, 09:55:13 pm
I see two main issues here.
1: your use of "aerial perspective" (of which fog is just an extreme example) has inconsistencies. Mainly, the distant hills (?) get darker than the main hill, which is unrealistic. There also isn't enough contrast in the nearest foreground which should not look misty at all, or very little.
2: light is wrong. The portal casts a sharp shadow, so there has to be a strong point-like light source behind it, yet we don't see it (can't be the sun because fog, right?), and worse, we can't see the beam(s) that fog would make highly visible.
2b: Such a light would actually mean a night scene, so the sky should be dark. Can't have both!
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Daimoth on September 01, 2014, 11:49:50 pm
Thanks for the reply!
I got the idea of making the night sky bright red from Hellsing.
I was afraid to push the contrast in the foreground because I thought it would suggest a second light source. I suppose if the sky were darker, I'd be able to push the contrast on the largest visible branch further. Or did you simply mean I need to further detail the foreground trees/ground? Or use my dark shade more liberally in the near field?
I was trying to pass that off as stylization, but no dice eh? :blind:
Beams of light, excellent idea btw.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: michelcote on September 02, 2014, 03:09:16 am
The contrast between the red of the sky and the rest of the image muddies all the dark detail. I'd suggest altering your midtones and dark colours so they blend less together, at the moment the image is difficult to see at 1x. I like the gate detail and the shape for the skull crest's cast shadow!
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: astraldata on September 03, 2014, 06:42:39 pm
Couple of different ways you could go about this depending on your desire for contrast and framing:
Quick Edits:
Lighting tweaks (but retained most of the original composition): (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/aceallen/final__r1471380191.png)
High-contrast framing (no perspective edit): (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/aceallen/final__r1471380191-2.png)
Those tweaks should give you an idea of where to go from here, although Manupix's suggestion about aerial perspective should also be considered. The use of it can allow for a nice framing effect as seen above, but your perspective in and of itself is a bit off. Not sure if that in the distance is fog or hills or a mountainside, but I treated it as a distant mountain and hinted at the side of the graveyard-looking area falls off into a chasm on that right side so that the perspective wouldn't look so off in order to maintain your original composition.
The main thing I did on the first one was tweak the hues and contrast a bit -- you stopped your hue at the leftmost side of the bar and I just brought it back toward pink/purple instead, with a saturation bump, to draw attention in the area near the gate. Speaking of the gate, I made that area darker because you'd see a stark/dark silhouette of the gate if the light source was behind it. It also increases the drama by adding more contrast between light and shadow interactions.
I took that drama a bit farther on the second edit to show that you can do a framing effect if you like with that light/dark interplay. None of this really required any tweaks to your original composition, but I had to add some branches to the top-left and right sides of the image to fight-off the overuse of negative space (the sky and gate was plenty enough negative space to keep balance in your image). I didn't bother detailing much else, or fixing the lighting in other places, but I hope this gives you a better idea of how to go about something like this.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Daimoth on September 04, 2014, 06:02:47 pm
My color theory chops and composition are areas of concern for sure. Would you mind elaborating on my lighting errors if you've the time?
I'll have an edit done by tomorrow evening. Making this post now rather than when it's done to obligate myself to get it done by then.
Thanks quite a bit, guys.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Cyangmou on September 04, 2014, 07:02:15 pm
-edited the contrast (don't be afraid of dark values and high saturations) -moved down the horizon line -added clouds -increased the size of the gate -added sloppily backlight and cast shadows at the treetrunks -changed the shading of the path to make it composition wise leading more towrds the gate -added a front layer with some greenery (pretty dark)
(http://abload.de/img/2014_9_4_editmesdn.png)
also guess a shadow like that from the gate would only make sense if there is a strong lightsource, like the sun direc tin line with how the shadow falls. This could also lead to some interesting overblending/lensflare effects which might make the whole piece of art more interesting.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: astraldata on September 05, 2014, 12:25:04 am
Cyangmou hit the points in his edit regarding lighting and composition that I only touched on. It's really all a matter of preference, and it depends on how realistic you're trying to be in your lighting vs. your composition. In my edit, I chose to keep the scene very dark and empty as seemed to be the original intent, and the lighting was very muted, but Cyangmou's lighting draws the eye toward the center more than mine. Mine took into account the light from behind the gate, casting a stronger shadow on the part of the gate you can see, but Cyangmou's preferred visual interest over realism (though if a light were hovering above the ground or so inside the gate over the dirt or an intense light way above in the air, his too could be considered realistic as the light fades more toward the forest compared with the muted ambient light I chose to emphasize in my own edit -- the main difference being, his has a strong focal point, and mine didn't since I was playing off the ambiguous mood I gathered from the original composition, which I thought to be more interesting to me personally). I prefer more muted art for scenery, something with an ambiguity that leaves stuff to the imagination, but Cyangmou's edit has a lot more presence with the intense red sky and focal point, and depending on which mood you were aiming for, you'd use the one that suited your purpose more. The way you'd light the scene and composition would depend on that purpose -- i.e. whether you want a strong focal point or more ambiguity and mystery.
The question is not "how do I light the scene", but rather "what do I want to convey with my image?" You must decide whether you want to be explicit or implicit with your image. Cyangmou's edit (explicit) reads better to an audience because it is clear and direct, and this is usually better for game art or assets with a practical purpose or clear intent to get across to the viewer. On the other hand if you're just establishing a mood or just trying to hint at an idea with no real specific context with your image, a more ambiguous composition like my first edit (implicit) might suit you better (a lot of manga and comic book artists use the implicit composition technique to establish a mood for a scene or show the passing of time).
Regarding lighting and coloring techniques, the actual lighting you had in your original image simply didn't have any clear direction (unlike the lighting in Cyangmou's edit, which shows the light source as coming from the gate/sky area, and he indicates this direction by showing some light reflected off the stump and trees nearest the center of the image, where he assumed the light source to be, and frames the light source with the trees/clouds, emphasizing the omnious mood with the stark red in the sky, which is also mostly framed in the center of the image.)
The only other real problem with your image was that you were over-defining stuff that should be mostly shadow anyhow (I kind of winged it a bit in my 1st edit, but my 2nd was a bit better). Not everything has to be drawn in a dynamic-lighting situation, so keep that in mind to save yourself a lot of work in the future. You're implying things in shadow, not actually rendering them, so save some time and energy by being vague where you can. :)
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Daimoth on September 06, 2014, 03:46:54 am
(http://i.imgur.com/r1iiSl6.gif)
Palette and contrast experimenting
Slightly less negative space
A bit more framing in the foreground
Deepened and reshaded the path
Wall in place of vaguery
Still need to... A lot of stuff. Most notably, the empty sky. Might stuff a building back there or something.
Updates will follow
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Manupix on September 06, 2014, 12:08:42 pm
Good edits from everyone, but they all more or less give up on the fog which was the main challenge of this piece IMO.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: YellowLime on September 06, 2014, 12:54:39 pm
Good edits from everyone, but they all more or less give up on the fog which was the main challenge of this piece IMO.
You're right, and there will be further iterations. I'll work in wisps of fog or something; the fog spilling through the gate barely makes sense anyway. Perhaps some vague stuff behind the gate, obscured by mist.
Might rework the big branch, make more room for more in the background. And as the branch thins, light would refract around it and lighten it as it thins.
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Cyangmou on September 06, 2014, 08:56:09 pm
Good edits from everyone, but they all more or less give up on the fog which was the main challenge of this piece IMO.
I guess it can be done, but I believe muddiness is the polar opposite of pixel art in general :crazy:
fog can be done. but because fog usually is just moist in the air and it's soft it needs more colors. The main problem there will be to get the edge qualities right with just a small palette.
The more interesting challenge will be to get the overblending of the light and the cloudiness of the fog strands right.
Guess it can be done, but will be a lot of detail work.
Quick rough edit just to suggest the look:
(http://abload.de/img/2014_9_6_editnnsyt.png)
Title: Re: Scary forest
Post by: Daimoth on September 18, 2014, 04:07:43 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/EoZdaqU.png)
tree experimenting
palette tweaks
more colors
various shading tweaks
The sky filler and fog are indeed still in the pipeline, but I really wasn't digging my old tree design. What do you think?
Oh, and it turns out a big part of my contrast problem was my windows theme. Overly dark pieces with poor contrast look fine when the rest of the screen's dark gray! :crazy: