Pixelation
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Conzeit on April 11, 2007, 03:10:26 pm
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Ok, so we all know there are a few regulars here who get online jobs, hence our employment section.
I figure everyone has to send some kind of invoice. I do it by reporting how much hours have been spent on a given animation. I have always used "allnetic working time tracker" and it tracks time just fine, but freeware versions have no way to directly "export" an invoice, never the less it gives me a security about what I'm charging to my client.
I was just wondering what (if) anyone else uses and how they feel about it.
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don't charge your clients hourly unless you dislike them and don't want to work for them anymore.
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ok.....I accept your advice
...except you dont really justify it at all, and..you dont really give any alternative.
how do YOU do it? it's a little self important to just come in implying my way is annoying as hell and then flutter off.
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I prefer to charge people on a per piece basis. mainly because i've had problems in the past with the client not believing how much time is spent on a piece and stuff like that. i guess your time tracker would solve this problem. so my invoice is based on the quote i give them after recieving the job info (unless of course there is a set price for the job too). if that makes sense.
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Never work hourly for anything except overtime at your day job. Everytime you are on a clock, people will think you are dawdling for 99% of the time even if you have a webcam that shows you working on it for twice as many hours as you charge for. Instead, always estimate how much you want to make per hour, and name your price before you start based on how long you think it will take you.* Both parties feel a lot better with that more definate agreement. Also, this is how most (all?) of the big companies do their contracts, so it's good to get used the the system.
*not sure how long it will take? You'll learn it pretty quick, and it will vary. Aim high at first because most are likely to underestimate anyway. If you haven't used all the time you thought you would, you can either turn it in an take the extra money, which is expected, or you can do the right thing and pour the rest of your heart in to make sure it's quality stuff and build a reputation as someone who earns their pay and works hard.
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only thing I can think of to add is that you need to also budget in redo's of perfectly good art that just isn't quite what the client wants, so "aim high" is definitely good advice!
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Long time no see, Conceit!
The advice given that you should not work on an hourly basis is bollocks. Yes, usually with big companies you have no choice, but sometimes start-ups and individuals prefer to work on an hourly basis. Sometimes I prefer working on an hourly basis, sometimes I prefer working on a fixed price, it depends on my availability at the time, how experienced I am with the type of project (and thus how well I can give a quote). You may want to do hourly first then switch to a fixed payment.
Regarding your original question,I've only had to send an invoice 2 times within 6 or so years out of all the jobs, and I've managed to get my payment without an invoice... but the only thing I needed was my ABN number... In Australia I had to register a company in my name, and provide my business number. Probably depends what country you're in.
Regarding the day job/overtime remark, many people don't have a choice about whether they get paid hourly or paid a salary at their day job, unless they quit, but how realistic is that?
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Good reasons not to charge hourly:
1 - If you work too fast you'll be cheating yourself
2 - If you work too slow you'll be cheating your client
3 - Many clients will require assloads of paperwork documenting the time spent working, which wastes EVERYONE's time
I've not yet worked for hourly in the game art world, and all of my clients have expressed revulsion and disgust at the very mention of hourly. I've been in discussions for doing hourly programming work before, but that was a very special case between friends and old employers, etc, and would have been in-house. So no, generally speaking, avoiding hourly is not bollocks. Yes, you can do it in special cases but it depends very much on the client and the job, and I would consider it very carefully before heading down that path!
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Although I personally prefer per-item pricing, there are plenty of circumstances where hourly works better, particularly when you're sort of developing art longterm for a game. For example, on most games I've assigned artists who do sprites or animations per-piece pricing (one sprite model, one animation, etc). But things like menus, where it's a wide variety of pieces that have to be done, and usually a lot of adjustments and additions, it's easier to hourly the artist instead of constantly having to think out each piece's price.
Per-piece pricing rewards the speedy, but ultimately if you have a comfortable hourly rate going, and you're in a good relationship with a developer that's offering constant work, that's a pretty good spot to be in.
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Yes that's a good point, I have not been fortunate enough to score a deal like that but i see what you guys mean now, thanks!
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It is bollocks. I stand by that. Whether you go down either path, you have to tread carefully. You can screw yourself easily by underestimating on fixed pricing, or estimating too much and finishing early and it is difficult to estimate how long you'll take at times. Hourly rate is definitely not a special case.
If you work too fast, you'll be cheating yourself.
If you work too fast, you'll have more time for other paying projects, or time to yourself. I see what you mean though, though I never look at this as a bad thing. You'll probably impress your employer and get more work from them, or they may recommended you.
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You'll probably impress your employer and get more work from them, or they may recommended you.
Yup. There are a few guys I work with that are definitly not cheap in their hourly rate, but they're so fast and professional that they're totally worth it.
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I'll have to agree that hourly pricing is the way to go. There are a few instances where it's not, and these are usually just 1 day projects being done for a new client.
I've charged hourly for quite some time now, and not once have I come across somebody asking for loads of paperwork or disbelieving me. The fact of the matter is, if you are reputable and can give a rough estimate of the time it's going to take, most employers won't make a deal out of paying you hourly.
Most of the benefits of hourly rates has been stated so I'll just leave it at that for now.
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It sounds like there is not just *one* way to go. Most of the jobs my company gets require firm bids, not estimates, so hourly is out of the question for our particular contracts, but it sounds like it is working out great for you guys!
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What's up Chilko! ;D
haha. thanks for all the feedback guys, Chiko specially for laying the controversy
Back to the original topic, I asume none of the guys who charge hourly have a time tracking software to keep the timings for them?
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It has always been my understanding that the freelance industry (not just games, mind) is run mainly by pieces and not hours because it is just so much of a hassle to try and track hours even for on-site work. Also, almost all of "them" (the non-freelancers i mean) either are salary employees (management) or by comission (company artists). I haven't heard of full-time employees in the industry who work hourly, though i wont pretend to know all the ins and outs.
When it comes to fine arts, hourly wages are nonexistant. You either name your price for a client or they make a bid, but it is always a fixed fee.
For long term projects, what i have seen is that the pieces get broken up fewer times. someone who is only doing a single character might have his contract broken down by animation set. Someone who is making an entire game might get payed per character, or if they are simple, may have a single entry that is just considered "characters." It is important to know exactly what each of these entries will entail as far as size, number, and detail of images so that you can make a proper estimate. Knowing your client well is a big tihng, too - redoing work sucks especially if you didnt plan on it in your named price.
The big problem I have with hourly wages is that they scream "I am lowly! I am part-time! I am working class!" which is NOT the way most people would want to present themselves to a company they want to negotiate with. To be treated fairly you need to come to the table as big boy who knows what's up and is ready to play the game. When they put you on a clock, they own you. They are the boss, you are the worker. You will always lose. In order to make the most of a buisiness deal, you need to tell them exactly what you will do and for what. You tell them what it will require. I dont mean be a bitch about things, but respectfully let the client know that you are the professional that they are contracting because you know how to get the job done. Impress them. If you are the best guy for the job you will get the job most of the time, and they will tell their friends about who they hired and how good your work is and how they found a very organized, professional freelancer - not one of those unreliable strangers who works by the hour could turn out anything under the sun. It really will make a difference in how you are seen by the people whose business you need.
none of this applies to people who know you well, becuase they know exactly what to expect from you and they will treat you fairly because they know you personally. If your client is also your friend, you are lucky. This will not happen for every job though - and it most likely wont happen for most jobs.
Really, the best way to do things is the way the msot successful artists and businessmen do things - by pieces, not by hours.
Original topic - Invoices are extremely simple, especially if you already know what you have done, If the program can tell you how many hours you worked, you dont need it to automatically "export" an invoice, as im sure you already know based on the fact that you dont have one doing that for you. I mean seriously, what is it, a half line of text? :P
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Sorry Conceit, I just do everything manually (notepad, excel)
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Actually, my company has plenty of fulltime freelancers. I freelanced at WayForward for a year before I became salaried, and at least 8 months of that was as a fulltimer. I agree that in terms of negotiation and exuding professionalism, a set price is probably better. But what you end up having a lot of on handheld games is tons of little unexpected art chores that need doing, and for those it's great to have people around who are hourly that can work on anything at any time, without having to negotiate pricing over and over. They're not seen as lesser (at leats not at my company) and they get their full 40+ hours a week, they just haven't been formally hired yet. Some people at the company even choose to remain freelance, because they prefer the freedom - a freelancer is under no obligation to do anything beyond their immediate workload, while a salaried person is.