Pixelation
Critique => Pixel Art => Topic started by: Tremulant on June 05, 2006, 05:55:13 am
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Stills:
Previous versions :
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/orc.PNG
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/orc2.PNG
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/orc3.PNG
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/orc5.PNG
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/Futurefantasy.PNG
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/Futurefantasy2.PNG
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/Futurefantasy3.PNG
Current:
(http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/Futurefantasy4.PNG)
Sprite(s):
Previous:
http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/animation/orcrun.gif
Current:
(http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/animation/orcrun2.gif)
Added a new guy and updated the ol' orc. I've started making animations for a game based on these designs, but the way I've done it (in pieces) makes posting the sprites hard. I'm workin' on it though.
For now, crits will make me happy, and you wouldn't want me to be sad would you? :-*
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Ha wow, thats great. personally i would like to see that in colour but thats just me.
oh and to me, to scar on his chest looks too dark. the stylized square knees also look abit out of place.
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Nice. Reminds me of that one dude from Billy and Mandy on Cartoon Network... >_>
The perspective of the gun handle is totally screwed up. Other than that.... very nice. The hair is very cool, and the pants are very you, Tremulant.
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Maybe it's time to stop AAing the outer side of the sprites. And generally, have light-dependent outlines, not full black.
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Updated, twice no less. Thanks for the crits and comments, guys.
Meta|fox: Heh, colours. Yes. Done. Knees, changed, chest was pectoral division :P, exaggerated, indeed, and wrong, but unchanged ;D
CAG: tweaked the trigger thingy, so it was more in perspective. Probably still out of whack, but I dunno. You tell me. haha the pants are very wrong, so yes, me indeed!
Helm: Cool, done. But what's wrong with outer aa? Just the fact that I always do it, or something more? I belive the last one, using your suggestion, is best, but the other definitely looks smoother. Is that a bad thing?
Thanks again, guys. Keep 'em coming.
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god.. i love your style... from what i have seen so far your a very acomplished pixel artist and these kinda works are inspiring me :)
keep it up :)
(sorry for no critique but i didnt have anything to critique on :P)
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Maybe it's time to stop AAing the outer side of the sprites.
One could say that this is style critique, based on preference rather than actual correct technique. Actually, one will say this.
I rather like the outer AA thang, makes them works nice and smooth.
You lost a bit of the shininess on the coloring process, but that's not bad. I prefer the second version to the third, better colors, less washed out look and better contrast. Everything's quite nice.
But please, fer chrissakes, either change that gun or redo the forearm & hand that holds the handle! The perspective mismatch is making me dizzy. It stands out like a mother. Please. Really.
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just thought id give my two bits :
outer AA on a piece is self-defeating because it typically will make the outline even harsher whenever the background changes. if the sprite is AAed to a constant background that is part of the sprite, thats not outer AA, thats just regular AA within a piece.
i take pointers from da vinci and use line weight to smooth contours:
(http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/276/blah4ml.png)
not the best, but no jaggies :D
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Outer AA on a piece is self-defeating because it typically will make the outline even harsher whenever the background changes
Absolutely, and it shouldn't be used on animated pieces or game sprites where the background is due to change. But Tremulant mainly does static works, which are self contained and won't change the background much, so i think it does not apply.
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turbo: *cough* read on *cough* ;)
@adarias: i would also stop using the term sprite for anything that is somewhat discernible as a character. now, i'm not really that adept in this either, but from what i can recall sprite is a term that comes from game-making, or just programming in general even, only, and it's something like a graphical object that is able to be moved around and be animated. also, i think that static, unanimated 'sprites' are called 'blobs'. pixel art isn't automatically game graphics, this isn't a sprite
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*cough* *cough* *cough* takes medicine, +51 Health
Just complementing and emphasizing aspects of what was previously said :)
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a static sprite if I remember my Amos Basic, is a BOB, no?
Tremulant is the one that called this a sprite, and that's why mainly I suggested he takes off the outer AA. Personally, I find his last, sharper version best, for what a sprite is supposed to be doing. Trem is awesome, and a lot of his stuff is quasi-scene artwork, not game-art, but he seemed to want this to be a sprite? That's what I gathered. Even if this is a scene piece and not game-art, I believe just for the purposes of getting outside his habits, it's a good idea to have tried no-outer AA for once. And light-dependent outlines are always a good thing, in my opinion.
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a static sprite if I remember my Amos Basic, is a BOB, no?
OT: I think, BOB means Blitter Object, wich is a sprite that isn't "rendered" with the sprite hardware but with the blitter.
Anyway, amazing work Tremulant. You have improved so much since you first posted here. I have no crits. Keep up the good work!
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Heh. Apologies, gentlemen, as I think I misused the term "sprite". What I meant was that this will probably be displayed on a transparent background by its lonesome. Not game art, but not entirely a 'scene' either. As such, Helm's on the right track. No outher aa and variable outlines make much more sense, given the way I mean for this to be presented.
But what about the actual image? I agree with Helm in that I think the last one is best, but it's clearly no where near perfect. The colours, if nothing else, are a bit bland, no?
I demand more criticism! Criticize me! ...umm.. please. ;D
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Dude, two people just told you the gun is fuxxored. Get to it already. You're not getting away that easy.
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didnt mean to use the term wrong, i just call every pixeled character a sprite out of habit. Ill just use 'piece' since im not sure what else to say :P, if people can understand me without difficulty....doesnt really matter
as far as actual crits, i think the skin highlights should follow the forms a bit more, that or add another highlight color to the skin. you have a habit of making everything round when you start highlighting anatomy, and most shapes really are far from. just a thought, but the highlights could be better shaped to show muscles instead of many round surfaces. i second (third? fourth?) the thing about the gun too
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The AA sample Adarias posted is one of the most useful examples I've seen.
*joink*
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helm: oh, bob, heh. i actually got that from you, but it was just too long ago to remember. it was in one of squidi's crusades, probably one of his earlier ones considering he got support from most of the pixelationers, against someone really evil calling his comics sprite comics or maybe he had been ripped by a 10-year-old again, no idea
and my, am i impolite again. your picture is nice as usual tremulant.. heh this isn't any better than saying nothing either, sorry. and i'll probably just repeat what others said about the outer aa thing, but just judge by yourself what you want to do. i mean if you're using a fixed background, well of course make it look nice by smoothening it out
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if the sprite is AAed to a constant background that is part of the sprite, thats not outer AA, thats just regular AA within a piece.
If a "sprite" is on a constant background and does not move it's not a sprite. Most of the stuff anyone does here does not constitute as a sprite at all :P
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Huh... moderate embarassment award goes to me for totally missing that, turbo :P
...But back to it, how should I go about fixing it? I'm not a... perspectivist... so... I'm working on it now, but it's gonna be just as effed when I hand in the new one. Suggestions or examples? I know I'm a being a whiner here, but hey, that's me. ;D
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(http://h1.ripway.com/tremulant/orc4.PNG)
Any better? haha No, I know, but I'm trying to prove I at least tried.
And a follow up on the previous stuff...
The non outer AA'd one was, admittedly, slightly bastardized by the reduced colour count and attempted palette unification. It lost some of it's original style, and looks a bit more washed out, etc. So to be fair, I'll probably do another version thusly.
On another note, the new one is light variably outlined, but it still uses outer AA.
edited for typos...
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It is not my nature to forgive. It is my nature, however, to edit:
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f291/TurboLento/orc2.gif)
Did two edits: first frame is your original, second i changed the muzzle perspective and twisted the lower hand into perspective as well. The picture loses the dinamic drama induced by the big front look at the muzzle element. Third frame, i shifted the weapon closer to the body, and adjusted hand/forearm into position. We see less of the character, he looks almost hidden behind it. Each option has it disadvantages, but they're technically more correct, now it's up to the artist to choose (to change into either, or to just stick with the original, always an option).
P.S.: perspectivism for the win!
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Graffiti + edit:
(http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/391/orc45gw.gif)
Although I see Turbo has an edit as well. :D
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Updated again! Hopefully this bit of perspectival correctation will save me from the Wrath of Turbo.
Btw, Turbo, thanks bunches for the edit. I based my new version on it to the point that it's... well, let's just say it's not exaclty a blatant copy ;D
CAG, the first diagram is great. Why the hell didn't I think of actually using like, y'know, the rules of perspective when trying to fix the perspective? haha Such an outlandish concept...
Side note... when it's decided that this is acceptable, I'm going to do a reworking minus the outer AA, just to see how it looks. Shouldn't get stuck on certain habits, and though the AA technically is ok for a piece like this, meh... I need to stop relying so heavily on it and spice things up a bit, y'know?
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Biggish update. Described it above, so I'll make you all look up there to save on redundance. ;)
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Elfy and orcy...this could get ugly. Good update, the heavy dark shading seems to give the piece a comic-book like feel. It would be neat to see those game sprites of your soon too ^_^.
I do think you could use one more green tone in there...to add some detail to the darker areas, the skin and hair etc already have a fairly smooth transition, but the green doesn't. Might want to add more detail to the smoke, it doesnt exactly match the sprite style at all.
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personally i dont like the coloring of the elf, i think he should wear a different color (like a smokey blue or rusty orange-gray)
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Thanks guys. Cool stuff you've brought up, and I've tried to address it.
Dhaos: It will most definitely get ugly, if all goes as planned ;) I assume you meant the green on the elf's clothing? Since I changed the colours, It may have been somewhat addressed, but I dunno, you tell me. I think I've thought of what to do about the smoke, too, just haven't added it in yet. I'm getting too it, though ;D
Adarias: Are these more the colours you were thinking of? I was trying to add as few colours as possible (workign from the orc's palette), but that's kinda pointless, in retrospect. Plu, I like the new colours better, soo...
I added a sprite, too. It has it's problems (mainly, the legs don't move as smoothly as they could), but I thought I'd put up something to give an idea of where I'm going.
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The new elf palette is pretty nice. Variation is good. As far as your orc run is concerned, its hand and gun are wobbling quite a bit, its like he doesnt have a good grip on the gun. Also the gun details are moving around alot, is that ment to be a shine?...
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hey man these are great...your sprite is doing something that mine often do too, which is the background and foreground legs are so similar in value that it starts to make the animation look a little strange/abstract. if you can make that foreground leg any brighter I think that will help quite a bit.
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I love the art!
About the animation:
I think his hair moves unnatural.
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I really like your stylized look. It's a little busy, but it's really nice. :)
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REALLY like the new coloring on the elf. wish i had more to say, but theres nothing that i can find wrong with them. I love the way these are turing out
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Cool stuff, i really like this character.
Regarding the animation- the motion itself seems right, but as a whole it feels a little too stiff , maybe you should try delaying the head a bit after the body , so that it reaches its extreme positions (top and bottom) a single frame after the body does.
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Very sweet anim. Could be better though, if you decide to:
- the shoulder/chest rotation should be sinchronized - the chest should rotate as much as the shoulder does. That means the center pectoral line moving more. To accompany this new chest movement, the arm should advance a few pixels each time the chest rotates forward.
- I agree that the hair moves unnatural
. Almost like it's movement is reversed. Don't have any suggestions for fixing that though.
- The crotch detail is confusing, it seems to jump around randomly. Also, the legs could use some sort of shading for easily distinguishing depth.
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New update with new character, palette reduction and general tweaking on the stills, plus and updated animation.
AdamAtomic: Thanks for pointing that out. I made the far leg a silhouette in the darkest shade, which'll hopefully remedy the problem. I also brightened the foreground leg a bit.
Shadow Wolf: Thanks man, glad you like. I agree that the hair moves unnaturally, especially now that I've added the delayed head bob. I'll probably revise it in the next update, and hopefully make it look more believable.
Aleiav: Heh, Thanks :D! Dunno what to say about the busy-ness. I was going for details and probably crammed too many in. Maybe I should simplify? You guys tell me.
Adarias: Cool. Yeah, I like it more to, so many thanks for the suggestion. I unified/reduced the palette a bit in the new update, though. Still look ok? I always find your use/choice of colour astounding, so your thoughts on it will basically be take as scripture. ;)
Ejay: Done and done. Is it what you had n mind?
Turbo: Your input here has been fantastic so far, so thanks for that, first off. I updated the animation before you posted, so the new update doesn't include most (if any) of your suggestions, 'cept for the leg shading, as I mentioned. Yeah, though, the chest/arm thing is a definite in, as are changes to the hair, and the crotch, well... shouldn't be too hard to fix, it's just that things sometimes get a bit scrambled when I'm drawing each separate frame. Just needs some cleaning, I hope.
Everyone: thanks, many times. I'm having fun with this, so I'll probably end up taking it too far and getting annoying with it, but whatever... deal. :D Anyway, apart from the new crits I hope to get here, I have a question about what race to do next. I can't think of a good evil one to balance out the addition of the dwarf. trolls, goblins, that kind of stuff I have no ideas for atm, as they'd look too similar to the orc, but... yeah. Ideas?
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Wicked. What are those half men half hyenas called? I remember DMing some D&D with them as the main enemies...
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So awesome dude :D
As ideas for new ones, howabout a long hooknosed purplish troll/goblin thing? If you make him all skinny i'm sure it wouldnt look similar to the orc.
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Godslayer, yes! :D Gnolls, I believbe, are what you're thinking, and yeah. Definitely next.
And Larwick, heh damn my single mindedness! Why should they have to be green? Purple trollblins will work nicely. right after the gnoll ;D
And of course, I guess I'll balance it out with humans or something on the other side. A bit boring, but inevitable, I guess :P
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Yay for dwarves! I like the overall design of the dwarf, however his helmet and beard seem underdetailed. Compare his beard to the orc's hair, the difference in shading should be apparent I hope. The helmet's shading seems kindof bland, I like the shape and palette, bu the actual shading is bugging me alot. Perhaps adding a metalic shine (light/dark contrasted thing) might help.
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Dwarves and orcs and elves are all the same height?
But then again, you know what? I rather like it =) It makes things a little less typical.
EDIT:
Insightful comment of the day: a thing with wings would be cool. (But don't you dare make another dragon, I can't take any more dragons =p)
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these just keep getting better and better. my only concern is that the dwarf is the best of the 3, having much more volume, so it might be better to go add the strong shadowing seen in his picture to the others.
the colors look really good to me, i wouldnt change a thing. thanks for the trust in my opinion but its also good to question - i dont even the scriptures should be taken as scriptures :P
as far as the height thing, in norse mythology from where they all come from, not only are dwarves and elves the same height, they are the same being (the words being used interchangeably depending on the writer, gnome is also the same as both). orcs, known more widely as hobgoblins, are also of less-than-human stature in some cases, though they have also been sometimes described as immensely tall. it has been suggested that the ideas of dwarves and elves comes from the limited dealings that the norse had with the bronzed-skinned arab cultures know for their fine metalworking. similarly it has been suggested that orcs are a rude cariacature of the easten asian russians, who were thought of as being skinny, pallid of skin, and who were presumed to be monsters, their outward appearence being the result of eating human flesh and having their souls stipped away. the now-popular 'tolkien's orcs' are entirely of his own creation and bear little semblence to the mythological zombie-like orcs, nor to the english 'orc (orke)' meaning an imp or other lesser daemon. i dont know which orc yours is, but the point is that height is irrelevant.
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Eh, looking at it now, I don't think simplifying is needed. Unless of course you're background is going to be just as busy and there's not going to be any outline over the sprites. IF you're putting them in a game that is.
Otherwise, they're brilliant! :)
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The non-animated stuff is reminding me of those Warcraft I and II covers, with the battle-ready humans and orcs facing off. Looks great so far, keep it up.
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Oh, cant wait for the the gnoll. its gonna look sweet.
Two tiny lil crit with the animation. the moving shine on the gun just doesn't work well (I cant really explain why, mabey its just personal opinion). and the chest should be moving abit more from side to side like the shoulders at the moment it looks abit to front on.
I'm really inspired by this stuff, so would you mind if i tried my own one of these Future vs Fantasy characters? I'm thinking about trying a human wizard one. oh, and if you want i can post it on a different thread as to not thread hijack. I would understand if you didn't want me to do one, but i do want to try :)
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Updated with a flying thing that isn't a dragon.
Adarias: heh, too true, and I guess it was just an over the top figure of speech (I don't exactly take scripture as scripture relevant myself :P). So let's just say I take your opinion very seriously ;). As for the shadows, I agree totally, and tried a bit to work the whole thing into the others, but probably didn;t go far enough with it. In a later update, definitely. as for height, I didn't make it too pronounced, but if you look at it, the elf is tallest, the orc slightly taller and stockier, and the dwarf, minus his hat thing, is actually almost a head shorter than the elf and probably twice as thick. But yeah, it is irrelevant. I'm trying to be stereotypically untypical, if that makes sense. I'm trying to use the classic races, but not worry too too much about modern tarditional (i.e.: post Tolkein) imagery. My orc is obviously based off the more cartoony Warcrafty image of an orc, being a muscly green guy, but I dunno...
Crumbbread: Wing thing is in, cause the Gnoll is being a jerk and giving me trouble. Still workin' on it, but uit might be a bit.
Aleiav: Me being me, there will be a white outline around the sprites. Me being me also means a game is probably not likely to get finished at any point soon, but hey, the thought is there. Maybe once I'm done with the art, I'll just kidnap a programmer to do it for me.
Cure: I got the same image, honestly. Yay lack of independant imagination! ;D
Meta|Fox: Go to it, Fox. I'm flattered to be an inspiration!
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Thanks Trem ;D its up and posted
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/index.php?topic=1453.msg17594#msg17594
Anyway, in regards to your "flying thing that isn't a dragon" i like it, but compared to the rest it doesn't really seem to fit in. this might be because the others poses are more relaxed or the fact that its alot smaller, nothing to crit on the actual pixel art though.
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I like the Faerie as a unit (wow, Tremulant is like a genie granting my every request ^_^_^), but agree with metalfox that the pose is what makes it look out of place. (If the particle effects around it are s'posed to be Faerie dust, they look more like motion blur)
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This is sweet. Now do a centaur for me! kthanksbye
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Lovely! The fairy makes me think of the Artemis Fowl series, I like its (her?) pose but it doesn't quite read as well as it should, I think. Something about how the limbs are lining up. The close arm on the elf looks a bit weird, and it's been looks weirder and weirder the longer I look at it. I did a quick edit to see if I could fix it up some, not entirely sure how correct I am but here it is in case it helps:
(http://paul.gerla.us/Futurefantasy4.PNG)
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amazing artwork.. but I have one niggle with the orc's shading..
I think the contrast is just a bit too much with one of the shades.. looks too similar to the outline colour from afar..
hardly a difference but I think looks much cleaner. :-\
(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/1152/toodark8fq.png)
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if the sprite is AAed to a constant background that is part of the sprite, thats not outer AA, thats just regular AA within a piece.
If a "sprite" is on a constant background and does not move it's not a sprite. Most of the stuff anyone does here does not constitute as a sprite at all :P
Not true. A 'sprite' is such because of designation within the program. It has to do with the differences in drawing, culling and manageing them. Taking GBA as example, there is essentially (in a 2D game) background, sprite and live text (although the text is also technically sprite-based). But anything using sprite palette that is not part of the tiled background is a sprite. In our current game we added things like overturned cars to the scene that are placed with their own collision, so the player can walk around them dynamically. They don't move their position, they don't animate, yet they are in fact sprites.
I would put the general rule as 'Anything that is not tiled, or not inserted into a system utlizing tiles, is a sprite.' Of course that again goes back to programmatic use, and not original artiwork. In that regard, I'd say 'If you say it's a sprite, it is.' ;)
- Adam