AuthorTopic: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest  (Read 31041 times)

Offline Darien

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Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

on: May 11, 2006, 09:36:09 pm
If the mods don't want a CCC or they had one planned and I only made one before them, I guess they can delete this.  But if not I hope that this will take off and people will find interest in it, and that it will spark more interest in the Commercial Critique thread. Also, if anyone has any suggestions on how I should do this differently, I am up to hear them.

THE SCENARIO:  Capcom recently decided to port Demon's Crest to the GBA, and with the port they are adding new content.  Unfortunately, all the old artists from the original game have mysteriously disappeared.  So, Capcom needs some new talent who can mimic the style of DC to work on the GBA version.  Will this new talent be you?

THE CHALLENGE:  We're going to start off with a sprite challenge, as that's generally friendlier and easier to get into.  Now, as you may know, Demon's Crest is a spin off of the Ghouls 'n' Ghosts series, where the character Firebrand is an enemy.  So, for this challenge, Capcom wants you to pixel the idle frame for the main character of GnG in Demon's Crest style as a boss sprite.  Here is the sprite of the main character, Arthur from Super Ghouls 'n' Ghosts, if you're not familiar with the game:



Use your knowledge of DC style that we are studying in the Commercial Critique thread to translate this character to DC style.  You can either pixel the armor version or the underpants version, or both.  Feel free to interpret the character creatively, and don't be held back by thinking you have to keep to this pose.  It'd probably be best if you didn't.  Size is up to you, but keep in mind the size of Firebrand and how it would work in the game.  Colors, however, are limited to 16 colors including transparency.

For now, Capcom needs your submission by May 18th, a week from this posting.

Good luck!

Offline setz

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 10:35:22 pm
judging by the size of the bosses in DC, they would be large as the SNES' resolution, or would we be thinking that the DC sprites were shrink-scaled to fit the GBA resolution? I could argue the 16 colors including transparancy part by pointing out the PPU trickery that's possible with SNES/GBA, but for sake of 16 colors being enough for anything, I'll let that go.

Offline Darien

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #2 on: May 11, 2006, 11:22:27 pm
Assuming that the Arthur sprite is somewhere near the size of the Firebrand sprite, with is under 30x50 pixels idle, both sprites would fit comfortably in a GBA screen.  I was just doing that scenario as a type of fun thing.  The real importance here is if you can work out a sprite in the same style as Demon's Crest, not whether we account for every little problem Capcom would run into while porting the game.

Offline setz

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 11:28:52 pm
THE CHALLENGE:  We're going to start off with a sprite challenge, as that's generally friendlier and easier to get into.  Now, as you may know, Demon's Crest is a spin off of the Ghouls 'n' Ghosts series, where the character Firebrand is an enemy.  So, for this challenge, Capcom wants you to pixel the idle frame for the main character of GnG in Demon's Crest style as a boss sprite.  Here is the sprite of the main character, Arthur from Super Ghouls 'n' Ghosts, if you're not familiar with the game:



Use your knowledge of DC style that we are studying in the Commercial Critique thread to translate this character to DC style.  You can either pixel the armor version or the underpants version, or both. Feel free to interpret the character creatively, and don't be held back by thinking you have to keep to this pose.  It'd probably be best if you didn't.  Size is up to you, but keep in mind the size of Firebrand and how it would work in the game. Colors, however, are limited to 16 colors including transparency.

For now, Capcom needs your submission by May 18th, a week from this posting.

Good luck!


I was thinking demon's crest style bosses as being pretty big and exadurated. as you can see from a wip I had going. but 30x50 works too.

Offline Darien

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #4 on: May 12, 2006, 12:01:20 am
Oh, by all means there are huge bosses in Demon's Crest, but there are also ones that are much closer to Firebrand's size.  Arthur, being only a human, I would imagine to be much smaller than the larger bosses.

Offline setz

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #5 on: May 12, 2006, 12:26:14 am
Point taken. I wasn't sure if I should post this in here or pixel art for C+C and all?

Offline Darien

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #6 on: May 12, 2006, 06:39:40 am
Well, post it here for sure, but I guess nothing's stopping you from posting it in the other section also.  It's not really my place to decide though. 

I think you should take a look at how armor is done in DC, setz:



Notice no dithering, and relatively clean.  I think you have a lot of segmenting in your sprite which clutters it a lot.  Also, the face seems very messy, you can't really make out any details of his face.  In all the DC sprites facial features are very apparent.  Proportions are also a little off, his legs should be longer.  It's a good start though, thanks for participating in this challenge.

Offline setz

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #7 on: May 12, 2006, 07:55:29 am
thanks for the crits. I started another topic so I don't clutter this up too much. and you're welcome for participating, trying to follow other styles is probably one of the things I"m worst at. and it's always nice to improve and learn new things.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #8 on: May 12, 2006, 10:20:21 am


not 100% finished, but its getting there.  i think that ive been trying to maek the armor too bright (and therefor am loosing the volumetric aspects of the piece) but that mgiht jsut be me worrying :P.  hes also a bit thicker than the firebrand (because he has armor and the firebrand is like, starving) and hes 'taller' pixelwise because hes standing straighter

palette taken from the big zombie dragon (i dont know how the game works but i assumed they had a limited number of fixed palettes that they swapped around a lot)

edit = done, despite fact it could be tweeked
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 02:26:03 pm by Adarias »
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Offline Godslayer

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #9 on: May 12, 2006, 11:18:02 am
I'm trying not to be immature here, but why is there a flesh colored object hanging from his crotch?
How long can the floor creak before it loses its voice?

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #10 on: May 12, 2006, 12:40:34 pm
if hes anything like firebrand and the rest of the monsters, youve got nothing to worry about in that region :P

but yeah i should have put a division there = oops = not quite submitted yet
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Offline setz

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #11 on: May 12, 2006, 05:02:34 pm
Adarias: I like it, but I think you should've picked your own pallete for the sprite, while it's lovely, I feel the hues jump around abit too much compared to the rest of the game. Typically the palletes are one solid shade, or just a static ramp, while the armor in yours seems to jump from green to blue to green. Also the outline under the feet seems out of place. I would also suggest using the whole 16 colors, as most sprites in the game do, I could be wrong, but in game development, it's not about conservation, it's about using the most of what you have. but I'm no expert on it either :)

Offline Darien

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #12 on: May 12, 2006, 06:48:57 pm
I figure I may as well post my wip:



A lot of issues with it so far:  the skin isn't "smooth" enough, in the DC sprites there isn't much hard segmenting between muscles, just subtle highlights to signal form.  The colors need a lot of tweaking, too.  I didn't pick a palette directly from the game because I figured that would take some of the challenge out of it (and someone had to pick them in the first place, right?).  Though it probably would be useful if we were able to rip the palettes easily so we could play around with them.  I made Arthur taller than Firebrand because he's standing up straighter, and I wanted him to be a little intimidating, though now I'm wondering if I should shorten him up a little.

Adarias, that's very nice.  That gray shade you have there seems too light though, and makes him feel washed out.  There's not a lot of the high contrast feel in the sprite because of it.  His left leg seems a little wonky, and it's hard to tell what's going on with his left arm.  I will critique more once you finish him.

Offline AdamTierney

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #13 on: May 13, 2006, 06:50:45 am
Got bored so I won't color it and I didn't really try to style match but oh well, I had fun.



- Adam

Offline Evil-Ville

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #14 on: May 13, 2006, 01:21:44 pm
What's the point of doing it if the style doesn't match? That sprite looks nothing like Arthur either.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #15 on: May 13, 2006, 02:26:29 pm
alright mine is finished, even if its still a little bit messy
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Offline Xion

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #16 on: May 13, 2006, 08:14:41 pm

Good Idea.
I'm far from happy with the legs...I think the knees could be higher, but O well.

Offline AdamTierney

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #17 on: May 13, 2006, 08:34:21 pm
What's the point of doing it if the style doesn't match? That sprite looks nothing like Arthur either.

It's a boss, so he's bigger. And I didn't feel like rendering it out like the source art once I got the lines done. What's the point? Pixelling is fun.

- Adam

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #18 on: May 13, 2006, 08:57:15 pm
actually adam, though the sprite is a fine one to post in the pixelart forum, you cant really post it for a challenge if it doesnt even try to follow the rules. its a little silly
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Offline AdamTierney

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #19 on: May 13, 2006, 09:07:52 pm
Fair enough. I didn't try to not work to spec, I just gave up before really rendered it. But if it offends, a mod can delete my sprite.

- Adam
« Last Edit: May 13, 2006, 09:22:15 pm by AdamTierney »

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #20 on: May 13, 2006, 10:25:58 pm
Darien, I think you're the only one who's barely even close to the style, I wouldnt worry so much about the segmented muscles, just add a white tone and a black tone, then use that to smooth both ends of the spectrum a little, you should have enough tones with that.

frankly I think it's a waste of time to try and analyze the way this was pixeled, there was obviously a indexed transparency tool involved in the pixelling of all this, it's painfully obvious from the way the shading transforms in every frame of animation, take for example the shoulder movement in Firebrand's flying animation.

Offline Xion

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #21 on: May 13, 2006, 10:43:07 pm
Fixed some stuff.

Offline Darien

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #22 on: May 13, 2006, 11:11:46 pm


I think I'm done, although I hate his hand.

Conceit, I'm not familiar enough with the effects of indexed transparencies to confirm or refute your claim.  The way the shading changes in the flying does not seem to me that strange.  Could you elaborate?

Offline Xion

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #23 on: May 13, 2006, 11:27:09 pm

Offline goat

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #24 on: May 14, 2006, 02:54:11 am
Moved to activities and stickied.
typing ewith fdace

Offline Crazy Asian Gamer

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #25 on: May 14, 2006, 04:52:42 am
Well, I didn't want Adam's lineart/shading to go to waste (mainly because I personally felt it kicked major arse)

So, hopefully, Adam won't mind, but I colored/tried to change style'd it.

Have at.

Offline Sohashu

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #26 on: May 14, 2006, 07:34:51 am
I reckon Adarias's fits best.  It just looks like the right amount of shadow.
Back from hiatus, just remembered how excellent this community is at forming technique in a fledgeling artist of any kind.

Offline Filax_666

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #27 on: May 14, 2006, 07:49:44 am
I also thought Adarias's was the best one, but on the mockup Darien's looks much better, I think.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #28 on: May 14, 2006, 12:21:13 pm
I also thought Adarias's was the best one, but on the mockup Darien's looks much better, I think.
yeah i agree, he nailed the lighting.  style seems a bit too bright imo, but then again i havent played the game in a looong time, and it doesnt take away from the sprite at all
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline vedsten

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #29 on: May 14, 2006, 04:12:12 pm
style wise adarias' spot on, shading wise too, except - there's too much sel-out to black. If you look at the DC sprites, the pure black areas, are cofined to small pathes of black, few of them on the borders of the sprites. Fixing some of the blakcs on Adarias sprites to a saturated dark blue (but still quite brigter than black) or something like that, would imo make it go much better with the DC bgs

Offline Darien

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #30 on: May 14, 2006, 07:11:48 pm
Yeah, my sprite could be much darker.  Here is a pallette swap (and an arm fix) with most of the colors taken from the dragon.  It's a lot darker than I had expected... I feel like he could be a little lighter than this.



Adarias, I think yours is very good, except for the face.  All the faces in DC are very very detailed.  Yours doesn't seem to suggest enough personality in the sprite.  I think that the amount of details in the faces of the sprites is a key element in Demon Crest's style.

Xion, same thing about the face.  I think you use too many bright colors though.  He seems too shiny.

Offline Xion

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #31 on: May 14, 2006, 08:11:55 pm
Thanks, Darien. Your sprite pwns.

Thanks for reminding me he used lances.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #32 on: May 14, 2006, 08:51:56 pm
yeah, i hear you on the black, i wanted to have another color but the way DC sprites are done (divided into specificly ramped segments) i just didnt have one to use.  i tihnk i might change the pallet though to give me another color to use there, since ive not even come close to 16 c
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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #33 on: May 14, 2006, 09:01:33 pm
"Go back from whence you came, foul beast, or I shall vanquish thee in a most gruesome of ways!"



Used the original palette, plus two orange tones. Probably a tad too bright on the DC background, but he's a White Knight, a knight of light, so that should make sense. Not really sure what the DC style is though, did it a bit less cartoony than the G&G one.

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #34 on: May 14, 2006, 10:42:53 pm
i modified my arthur, using a different palette with some slight costume tweeks to maek better use of it (and to have it fit better0.  is that alright?



somehow i think this new one is worse than my first
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 10:44:55 pm by Adarias »
A mistake is a mistake.
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Offline snake

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #35 on: May 17, 2006, 12:05:52 am
Cooked up a few things while at work.

The standard Arthur sprite, as requested. However, the bosses tend to be a bit bigger and meaner. Therefore, I imagine Arthur suddenly gets possessed by some demon thing after the initial fight and then mutates into:

Demon Arthur! (Insert dramatic music).

Didn't really plan his looks, just made it up as I went along. Noticed he looks a bit like nightmare from Soul Calibur, but no matter. All the colours were taken from the Arthur and Demon sprite because I haven't figured out how to get pure 16 bit colour yet. (I've never needed to).

The DC style has a lot of pillowshading and a lot of contrasts, something I'm not a big fan of. I kept the contrasts, but I've purposely avoided pillowshading as long as it somewhat still resembles the style. Feel like I need to wash my hands or something...

Offline Helm

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #36 on: May 17, 2006, 12:12:20 am
Excellent work.

Offline GOODNIGHTdestroyer

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #37 on: May 17, 2006, 12:44:27 am
Wow snake, that's amazing.
And I am finally seeing that you were the one worth eating.

Offline Alex

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #38 on: May 17, 2006, 01:30:55 am
What's the point of doing it if the style doesn't match? That sprite looks nothing like Arthur either.

my my, aren't you a little toughy.
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Offline Dascu

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #39 on: May 19, 2006, 03:52:41 pm
Lovely work, snake.

Offline Nitram

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #40 on: May 21, 2006, 05:24:30 am

Hey, I tried...

Offline Slainte

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #41 on: May 21, 2006, 04:53:59 pm
Still a WIP, but some comments will be nice at this stage... I'm not that good with poses at this "big" size 
I think I'll be changing the weapon arm to the other one, as it will cover less effect of the sprite stance



Ok... updating with the current progress... overall size reduced

« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 06:47:43 pm by Slainte »

Offline Dhaos

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #42 on: May 22, 2006, 03:09:58 am
Snake and Adrias, you two got some kickass sprites going there. Love the huge demon arthur XD.

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #43 on: May 25, 2006, 10:14:14 pm
Well ... the fact that the protagonist from DC is naked inspired this ...

The two naked protagonists finally meet ...  :P



12 colors.  Uses the original GaG palette for Arthur.  Man the DC style is VERY similar to the Castlevania (SotN and RoB) style. I'm so used to it that this was a breeze.

And with Armor. Again Arthur's original palette (didn't use all the colors again).



Snake was kind of right about "pillow-shading".  It isn't so much that as it is the DC sprites use more colors than I feel is necessary.  At the same time however they use high contrast colors.

The jig is up indeed ...

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 08:46:50 am by sonic_reaper »

Offline Turbo

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #44 on: May 27, 2006, 08:52:41 pm
Nitram: looks ok, but the helmet looks improvised. Use reference for the helmet, and make one that can be easily recognized at this size, even if it's different from the original. I'd add a brighter color and add armour highlights here and there.

Slainte: i suggest making his pose a bit more dinamic - separate his arms from his torso, make his legs open more. The pose from the original game is quite stiff, so this wouldn't really be following that to the letter, but it would look better as the remake.

Sonic_reaper: i like everything about your sprites, except the colors on the naked arthur. He looks made of dirt, instead of skin. I'd pump up the oranges or the pinks on either the highlights or dark shades to convey more of a fleshy feel.

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #45 on: May 27, 2006, 11:44:27 pm
dont be so judgemental about the amount of colors they use SR, the fact you come from CV which has an  apparently similar but diferent technique doesnt mean that CD's is invalid, they have a reason to do what they do and there's not only one way to sprite.

first of all I dont think CV style is all that similar to this, honestly I dont think you got the style at all, what you did just looks like an oddly shaped and fuzzy CV sprite.

remember the DC sprites were meant to be displayed in CRT TVs, DC is superior to CV in portraying detail under blurring filters.

zoomed up all these shades might look a bit overachieving, but when you look at it in high res in original size, or in a blurry screen you can see how each pixel comes together to give a very good idea of the shape.

think of DC sprites as sprites that expand the theory of Selout from just an outlining theory into a shading theory, it's all the same principle and ideas but applied as a way to convery all of the detail in the sprite, I think DC sprites have a very deep intuitive understanding of AA theories.

That is also why I think this is mostly pointless, the ideas in DC are interesting because of how well they use AA ideas, but to really be able to take a deep look at this we'd need a drawing tool based on darkening/lightening color cycling, because practice is always behind intuitive understanding.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 11:50:57 pm by Conceit »

sonic_reaper

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #46 on: May 28, 2006, 07:20:52 am
Turbo;

I know.  The palette came from the original Arthur.  That's an easy fix I won't bother with at the moment.

Ugh it's really late and I'm about to pass out but I can't ignore it when someone challenges my technique.  I will say that I agree with you.  However the problem with the palette is that it was drawn from the original Arthur.  And the contrast is asstastic.  Also the proportions on the head don't follow the DC style at all.  I will edit to more closely follow the style presented in DC.  However it won't require all that much tweaking at all, as you seem to think it would.



And now I shall proceed to pass out.

EDIT:  And yet again it still looks blurry in comparison to the original DC sprite when zoomed in.  I have failed.  Whatever.  I don't really care that much.  Was still a fun exercise.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 07:24:45 am by sonic_reaper »

Offline ndchristie

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #47 on: May 28, 2006, 12:39:01 pm
I mostly agree with conceit, though i always have a good laugh when somebody uses words like "theory" and "principle" for things like selout and aa.  Both techniques just sound silly when words of such high implications are used to describe them :P.  Its like calling cross-hatching a theory, or scumbling a principle ^^
A mistake is a mistake.
The same mistake twice is a bad habit.
The same mistake three or more times is a motif.

sonic_reaper

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #48 on: May 28, 2006, 05:45:20 pm
I understand completely what Conceit said in that DC uses anti-alias/sel-out techniques inside AND on the outline the sprite as opposed to just on the outline where it is normally used.  I think I too heavily outlined the sprite since the DC one looks much less softer and less "contained" standing next to mine.  It's very subtle though I must say and in a way difficult to capture.

I'm not sure if it's used exclusively though; as seen in the merchant here (although the other 3 sprites are done in the same style as the protagonist);

Offline Conzeit

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Re: Commercial Critique Challenge: Demon's Crest

Reply #49 on: April 11, 2007, 04:08:39 pm

Ok...I have this relentless hallucination that somehow, this might be a little past due to post, but I am defying my mental demons in the spirit of good ole arthur here.

I dabbled a basic shape brushed-in version back when this started, and the PSP GnG game wasnt out, so I made his Namco X Capcom version armor (http://sdb.drshnaps.com/sheets/Misc/Misc/NamcoXCapcom/Arthur.png) , with a few tweaks for added arthur-ness.

first, I tried to make him expressive while watching from making him too cartoony, so I gave him a big bold black mouth, a pretty flat beard, and I gave him ACTUAL eyes, unlike those of any Demon Crest character, but to stay true with DC aesthetics, I still made them covered in shade and not the usual pure-white-glow-in-the-dark stereotype sprite eyes. Other than that, I also modified his NxC design by making his garbs more visible and brown rather than NxC's black, to make for some color variety, and I limited the accostumed DC shade for facial expressions and those sectins of his armor which according to NxC design are trimmed in black.

is it just me? now that I actually posted it I think I might have overdone the armor divisions and made Arthur here look like a bunch of gobbled up gray pieces...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 04:12:56 pm by Conceit »